Fight Watching 101: How (And How Many Times) Do You Watch A Fight Before Confidently Scoring It?
This has been cross posted from Head Kick Legend.
The aftermath of the Nick Diaz vs Carlos Condit fight at UFC 143 has seen some incredibly good fan posts around the SBnation community:
- My early favorite was this post by Bloody Elbow community member "crazybones", in which he bemoans the separation of violence and sport that has gradually been taking place in MMA.
- Dallas Winston asked people to share their scores, which provided a great sampling of opinions and insights for seeing it one way or the other.
- I'm sure you've all read it by now, but another BE member, KGNLuc, took the time to transcribe what was said in Nick's corner during the fight. Above all else, It's a fascinating look into the relationship between Nathan and Nick. If you haven't or don't read it you will definitely be missing some key information when trying to evaluate the fight.
- Finally, Monte Fisto opens up his fight watching toolbox and shares a concept that everyone who cares about MMA should know: "The Rule of Trembling Shock". Just go read it.
Throughout those (and other) threads, it emerged that a large portion of those who saw it for Diaz felt he clearly won and a large portion of those who saw if for Condit felt he clearly won.
How so many people can look at a singular event and have wildly differing accounts is generally known as "The Rashomon effect", named after Japanese film maker Akira Kurosawa's film "Roshomon", which depicted a crime seen in mutually contradictory ways through the eyes of four people. In applying the concept to MMA, passion clearly plays a large role; Diaz fans will tend to see the fight for Diaz, while Condit fans will tend to see the fight for Condit.
Another contributing factor is the tendency for opposing factions to attempt to discredit each other while at the same time trying to get their point across. A great example of this in everyday life is the political debate over the de-criminalization of marijuana. Those in favor of de-criminalization would have you believe that it is a miracle plant with countless benefits and no negative side effects. Those who are against de-criminalization, on the other hand, claim that, among other bad things, it turns all who use it into worthless, unmotivated slobs and often leads to more serious drug use. Of course there are grains of truth on both sides but neither will ever admit it, in fear that their position will then be dismissed entirely.
Back to fighting though. By now, having heard the countless arguments from both sides, I think most reasonable members of the MMA community would agree that the Diaz/Condit fight was an incredibly close affair. Judging that fight live must have been an exceedingly difficult task and I wonder how many times the judges went back and forth in their heads before settling on Condit.
Fortunately for us, we do not have to render our verdict in the two minutes immediately following the fight. We have the benefit of being able to watch the fight multiple times, of looking at the CompuStrike and FightMetric stats, of listening to the opinions of many many educated observers, before we come to a conclusion, if we even do. (I'm okay with saying, "That particular fight was so close, I'm not exactly sure who I think won". I've said it before and will probably say it again.)
With the number of close fights happening in the past few years, I've spent a lot of time thinking about how I watch and evaluate fighting and this fight has convinced me that it was time for me to ask how the members of this esteemed community watch and evaluate. I'll share my fight watching evolution from noob to whatever I am now (potentially still a noob) and hopefully a handful of people will do the same.
When I started watching the sport, I was generally not really sure what I was looking at. I would alternate between watching one fighter or the other every few seconds, mostly their faces and it was impossible for me to tell what happened during standing exchanges unless a fighter was noticably effected by a strike. Even then all I could really tell was that one guy hit the other with either a punch or a kick. When the fight hit the ground I was even less sure what was happening. During this phase of watching fights I relied on the play by play and color to fill me in on what was happening and I took their opinions as the gospel truth.
Since I, like most sports fans, had already been exposed to stand-up striking through boxing and of course, Bloodsport, I was most concerned with learning about the ground game. Luckily for me I started watching a little bit after a couple of my close friends did, so they knew the basics. I can still remember asking "did he just pass to half guard?". After I had the positional aspect of the ground game down, I learned what a few of the submissions looked like and I would just keep track of the positions and submission attempts. At that point I wasn't big on giving the guy on top the advantage.
My next stage of evolution was in how I watched the stand-up. I'm not sure if someone tipped me off to this method, or if I just came up with it on my own, but I stopped watching the fighters faces and bodies and started focusing on the space in between them. I found watching like this made it far easier to identify what strikes were being thrown by who and while I still had a bit of a tough time keeping track of prolonged exchanges, I felt I had a much better idea of who was winning.
I continued watching fights this way until I started grappling, about two years ago. This greatly changed the way I viewed the ground game. I started to appreciate how difficult it could be to keep top control. I began to be able to tell when a fighter was looking to advance position and do damage or just preventing their opponent from doing so. I went from seeing the battle for grappling position that often takes place up against the cage as boring to a critical aspect of the match. Around this time I also began to make it a priority to keep the unified scoring criteria in mind at all times.
The most recent steps I have taken in my fight watching evolution are watching without sound and watching multiple times. I don't do this for every fight, certainly not fights that end by stoppage, but I have taken to watching close fights a total of four times before I come to a decision.
The first time I watch it live, with friends, fully in the moment, absorbing as much as I possibly can and coming up with a decision at the end of the fight, before the judges scores are read.
The second time through I watch only one of the fighters, from start to finish. I watch their eyes, their arms and legs, their body language. Then I do the same for the other fighter. I find that this allows me to see things I might have missed and also to identify which fighter is dictacting the fight and which is reacting. Sometimes exchanges happen so fast that it's hard to tell who got the better of them and this method helps me narrow it down. I might make some notes on what I feel were key moments for each guy.
Finally, I watch the fight again, alone, with no sound. By this time I have a pretty clear idea of how I think the fight went in my head but I just want to make sure that I haven't been swayed by something the broadcast team said or the way the crowd reacted during the fight.
And that about does it. How many of you think this is going way overboard? Anyone have a similar routine? I learned today that Monte Fisto looks for "trembling shock" when watching stand up action. What do you look for in a fight? I'm not sure anyone will want to admit it on the internet, but even after watching like I do, I'm occasionally still unsure of my determination of who won. How confident are you in yours?
(Note: I haven't finished my viewings of the Nick Diaz/Carlos Condit fight, but I'm working through it. Just in case anyone wanted to come along and accuse me of making all this up in an effort to justify my giving the fight to one guy or the other)
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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I guess it really depends
Most times when watching the fight live, I try to score it as I go along. The hard part is not letting bias’ get in the way. I had Condit winning that fight 48-47 on my first and only viewing of the fight on Sat night. I have been known to go sometimes and rewatch a fight 24 to 48 hours later to see if I missed anything on first viewing, but typically go with my gut.
Robbie Lawler vs Nick Diaz UFC 47
Rogan: (after Diaz throws a looping left kick) Look at this Karate Kid stuff right here
Goldie: Daniel Miyagi has arrived in the OCTAGON.
Here's where I make a confession
if a fight is controversial, and there are a lot of differing opinions, I like to watch it at least twice, and on the second viewing, I like to pause, rewind, catch little nuances.
But for Condit-Diaz I saw it only once (though I watched very closely) because my stupid DVR for some reason decided I didn’t REALLY want to record that $60 PPV.
Honestly though, the judges score it real time, so to some extent if you need to see it in slo-mo and repeatedly to pick out a technique, it’s possible that technique was not used with enough authority to matter.
Thanks for the shout out BTW.
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Usually once
But I expect most people will say more than once. Then people come to places like BE (after watching the fight 10 times) and berate the judges, who not only have just 1 chance to see the fight, but often have bad views of the action.
by YPG on Feb 7, 2012 5:56 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
What I don't get is why people here haven't watched this fight a second(or more) time(s)?
The fight is available online(at mma-core.com). I would post a link but I’m not sure if that’s allowed here. I have watched the fight over 3 times and I still believe Diaz won 1,2,3(close), and 5.
Is it weird that I never rewatch fights?
I think its mostly because I really don’t have time to ever watch fights over again.
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I generally watch
Live, with friends, and we all score as we go along and compare; I’ll generally re-watch again the same night by myself. If a fight’s particularly controversial, like this one, then I’ll watch again the next day on mute.
In terms of scoring, here are my criteria: first, who came closer to finishing the fight, either with strikes or sub attempts; second, who dealt the most damage; third, who controlled the grappling (takedowns, guard passes, top control/control from the bottom, in that order); and finally, aggression and ring/cage generalship. This order dictates my scoring of a given round: if one guy came close to finishing but was repeatedly taken down, in my mind he still won the round (an attempt to finish trumps effective grappling, e.g.).
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"By doubting we come to inquiry and by inquiry we perceive the truth." -- Abelard
I watch fights I like multiple times
As far as how I score it though, I really only give weight to how I score it live. When debating whether the judges got it right, that’s something that I take into consideration because they don’t have the benefit of watching it a few times, being able to pause and rewind and such to make their decision.
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Great post!
I usually watch a fight live (at a bar, my house or a friends house) then Ill watch 2 more times that week doing as you say watching one guy each time. But lastly I come back weeks even months later and Score it under two methods the 10 pt must system, and the half point system (eg. Rd 1 10-9.5) and on some fights I still can’t decide!
Buy I have a booklet with all this info I’ve scored and Rescored- GSP vs Penn 1, Shogun vs Machida 1, Penn vs Edgar 1, Edgar vs Maynard 2, Cruz vs Faber 2, and Penn vs Fitch but I haven’t had a chance to rescore this fight!
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by 420mike on Feb 7, 2012 6:59 PM EST via mobile reply actions
One question
When you re scored it, how many times would you come up with the same results as when you seen it live? I’ve only changed one it was Edgar vs Maynard 2. I first scored it 48-47 Edgar but the next 3 times I scored it came up with a 47-47 draw
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by 420mike on Feb 7, 2012 7:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
420mike....
…I like your style.
I thought Shogun beat Dan Henderson upon first watch. After multiple viewings I changed it to a draw.
I proudly scored Edgar/Maynard 2 as a draw the first time. Didn’t change it upon subsequent viewings.
I scored Fitch/Penn 29-28 for Penn the first time through. After just watching Fitch I already had changed it to 29-27 Fitch, and I stick to that score to this day. Fitch won the second round and dominated the third. One of the bigger mis-judged fights in recent history, in my opinion.
There are probably others that I changed my mind on after watching but not too many that I can recall right now.
Pretty cool that you have a booklet, by the way.
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I watch and judge fights one time
And that’s live.
Judges rendering decisions don’t have the luxury of watching fights over. Personally I thought Condit won the fight. I just dont think Diaz did enough to win. On another note, shogun-hendo was the definition of a draw.
You make your decision and go with it. Watching fights after knowing the result is boring to me, especially 25 min decisions.
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by KMcCaig on Feb 7, 2012 9:18 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I get more appreciation for a fight that didn’t live up to expectations the second time around. The first time the hype is usually built up an it let’s me down
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by 420mike on Feb 8, 2012 12:36 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I only watch it again if it's a great fight
Judges only get one shot, so I don’t really mind just watching it once.

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