Diaz v. Condit and the Rule of 'Trembling Shock'

Cool perspective! I think that’s a fair assessment, but I have strayed from carefully evaluating or weighing individual strikes. I’m not good at it, and only the fighter knows whether a strike truly shook him to the core. The way I see it, if a fighter rocks his opponent with a trembling shot, the reward is intrinsic. He can follow up with more strikes in sequence before his opponent can effectively respond.

But what if the fighter has a good “poker face”?

How do you measure the “trembling shock” of a strike against an unfaded fighter (that later goes to the hospital)?

Some guys are harder to tremble than others, though.

I think people rely too heavily on numbers and what the stat-compilers term as “significant” strikes when there’s no real visible damage or reaction. The fact that Diaz landed more shots to the head and body of Condit should carry more weight than landing more strikes to the legs if the head and body shots are actually doing damage and the leg kicks aren’t. Leg kicks absolutely can win a fight, as you noted with the Aldo and Barry fights, but the ones we saw on saturday definitely weren’t on the same level.

I appreciated your post. Your voice and in some sense your reasoning certainly, uh, scores points with me. However, I must say I think that this article — and many of the arguments I’ve read that decry the way this particular fight was judged — all seem to build on a false premise. Watching this fight closely, I don’t really see how one can conclude that Diaz landed many more of these brutal and damaging strikes that you speak of so well. In fact, the over-arching impression I had of the fight was of his inability to land anything of real consequence. I believe that if you really slowed this fight down, it would be clear that Condit, despite being stalked, actually threatened with dangerous strikes more. The leg-kicks seem to be what Diaz and others are using as examples of the tinker-bell kind of striking that Condit employed to gain a decision. But apart from their clear effectiveness in limiting Diaz’s mobility as the fight wore on, they were often followed by attacks to the face and upper-torso that, had they really found their home, would have sent Diaz to the ER. The question I would ask is, “who was truly the more dangerous man in that fight?” My answer having seen it and thought about it ad nauseum is: “Condit.” I count Diaz fortunate to have the opportunity to gripe.

He didn’t land his most devastating shots cleanly, no. But he certainly attempted to. Diaz landed exactly zero devastating shots as well, but he is at least being credited with attempting to damage his opponent (only to be frustrated, the narrative goes, by Condit’s continuous retreat). My point is that lost in all the noise is the clear reality that Condit tried to kill Diaz with strikes a number of times. In any case, he connected enough to take a unanimous decision.

I think MMA judging is such a problematic issue. There doesn’t seem to be any definite criteria for scoring a bout that doesn’t require judges to subjectively compare apples with oranges (round 5 with Diaz’s dominant position being compared to Condit’s damage done being a good case in point). But post like this will hopefully put us on the path to creating some kind of consensus.

I enjoyed the read. I still think Carlos landed the harder blows but I agree with the spirit of the post.

I scored the fight for Condit. But this is the best defense I’ve read anywhere of scoring it for Diaz.

Is valuable mainly for the reason that you highlight your examination of how you view or judge fights. I am sure that some boxing fans would feel differently, for example. There is definitely a spectrum of perspective that we observe from. You made me think a lot about what I bring to each fight.

and I think it makes a good point about how numbers don’t tell the whole story. They are a valuable tool, but not the ultimate arbiter of success. I had the fight for Diaz, but thought it was close. If Monte Fisto and Elliot Matheny are in disagreement, it was obviously a hard fight to score.

To disclose my bias, I had picked Diaz to win, but I am a fan of both fighters and had no money on the outcome.

I really like the idea of using “trembling shock” to score a fight. While some judges may miss some strikes and there would be debate still over close fights, I like the idea of a means to score that doesn’t benefit fighters that refuse to put power behind their strikes, and look to just have the higher contact. Anything to keep mma from looking more like amateur boxing.

I know I do and a lot of drunk people ive watched fights with do it the same.

REAL power shots mean a hell of a lot more than 100 jabs as it is all about damage to ME. Whoever causes the most damage in a fight is the winner in my book…

great post

I don’t agree that Diaz’s strikes were significantly harder than Condit’s. The only really hard shots Diaz landed on Condit were on the fence when Condit didn’t move immediately.

I remember arguing with one guy telling him the same thing about a real street fight scenario that a spinning 360 kick would most likely not land, and leave the person that threw it vulnerable. He came back with “then how come at the last tkd tournament there were a bunch of people getting knocked out?” I said “because they only know tkd and don’t know how to defend themselves” lol.

I like both fighters and actually I just hope there’s a rematch and an all out war between them. Rounds 1 and 2 and 3 were all pretty even, I sat round with 5 of my mates and we were all divided. 4 was Condit’s, 5 was DIaz’s, but only for the last minute take down, which was reversed before the bell. (Condit WAS NOT in any real trouble here – the choke was never on, and grabbing Condit round the face and pretending it was on was an act of desperation).
Anyway, whatever, point is it was a close fight and close fights go either way – there was no clear winner.
On a side note – Diaz lifting up Condits leg after the fourth and not putting it down was uncool – and in my opinion, a pretty big sign that he didn’t really think he was winning at that point.
Anyways, let’s have a rematch, I love these two fighters, I just want to see them war.