UFC 143: Can Carlos Condit Defeat GSP Without Greg Jackson?
by Fraser Coffeen on Feb 6, 2012 9:04 PM EST
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At UFC 143, Carlos Condit became the UFC Interim Welterweight champion by defeating the toughest opponent of his career. Nick Diaz was on a powerful winning streak and seemed destined for a fight with Georges St. Pierre, but Condit got in the way. The result of that fight is not without controversy. Many think Diaz should have won, and many think Condit only got the win by running away in a boring performance. Yet the results speak for themselves – in the end, it was Carlos Condit who had his hand raised, Carlos Condit who became the new champion, Carlos Condit who now moves on to face GSP. But when he does face St. Pierre, he’ll be doing so without one of the best tools in his arsenal.
Greg Jackson, the long-time coach to Condit and occasional trainer for St. Pierre, is in all likelihood going to sit this fight out, choosing to corner neither man. In the lead-up to UFC 137, during the period when it looked like GSP vs. Condit would headline that show, Jackson addressed this issue with MMA Fighting:
Ariel Helwani: Greg, two of your star fighters are going to fight each other in October. What will do you?
Greg Jackson: Teammate protocols are pretty clear in this situation so everybody knows what happening. I step out, the other coaches -- John [Danaher], Phil [Nurse] and Firas [Zahabi] -- will take care of GSP and probably [Mike] Winkeljohn and some of the other guys here will take care of Carlos. But I step out of it, so I won't be cornering either guy. They'll fight each other. Those are the new teammate protocols. We knew this would be coming -- it will probably be coming again --but this time we are very well prepared.
Carlos trains in Albuquerque full-time, while GSP's home base is in Montreal, so how will you not offer advice when you see him in the gym?
Carlos is still training with a team. I am just not going to do game plans and private lessons and everything that I normally do for the guys because usually it's a pretty intense process -- I give them private lessons all the time -- heavy on the game planning, heavy on the personal growth plan, and for this, I'll just let the other coaches do that for both Georges and Carlos. So I'll just step out. They're all amazing coaches. Geez, I'm the worst coach on the team. They'll all do their thing.
Though he has not yet spoken about this in the aftermath of UFC 143, it seems likely that Jackson’s stance will be the same, and that Condit will find himself without his head trainer’s services during the fight. And that is a serious blow to the new champion.
In his defeat of Diaz, Condit’s greatest strength was his game planning, led by Jackson. Jackson and Condit figured out how to deal with Diaz’s unorthodox striking and successfully nullified the high-volume puncher over the course of 25 minutes. It was clear they studied tapes and formulated a plan that would lead to victory. Without that gameplan, expect a very different result from Condit vs. Diaz.
Against GSP, Condit will need an even greater emphasis on strategy. St. Pierre is one of the most cerebral fighters in the game, a champion who always forces his opponents into their areas of weakness, while never showing any weaknesses himself. Unlike some champions, and some great fighters, GSP doesn’t have an obvious hole in his game. That’s not to see he is unbeatable – no one is – but finding the path to victory against him will be difficult. Greg Jackson is the kind of master strategist and coach who perhaps can find that path – but he won’t.
This past weekend, Carlos Condit took the biggest step up in competition of his career, and he succeeded largely on the strength of his strategic approach. Against GSP, he’ll take an even greater step up, and his key partner in that strategic planning will be taken away from him. I said after the Diaz win that I was finished underrating Condit, and I am not going to go back on that now. But the loss of Jackson will make an already difficult mountain to climb just that much harder. This will be the true test of what Carlos Condit is made of. Can he pass?
For more on this issue, check out "Carlos Condit and Greg Jackson Solved Nick Diaz" by Kid Nate.
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he couldn't win with winkeljohn
or even with brass knuckles on
he will not conquer GSP
he’ll lose, oh yes he will, you’ll see
he couldn’t beat him on the mat
nor striking ‘lest he brings a bat
regarding condit’s bjj
“I’m not impressed” -ole Georges would say
by Clark Griswald on Feb 6, 2012 10:50 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
It really doesn’t matter. Condit doesn’t have to tools to win this fight outside a fluke KO. No amount of strategy can change that.
I agree.
If there’s one guy that’s better at jabbing/legkicking and running away than Condit it’s GSP. What an exciting match up that’s gonna be.
Go big red!
many times.
more importantly, i’ve never seen him running from his opponents like you claimed, and he is under no obligation to stand in the pocket and trade with anyone, this is not boxing or K1, he is permitted under unified rules to use the disciple of martial art he prefers
You're under no obligation to stand in the pocket and trade with anyone in boxing or K1 either.
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by Sweet Scientist on Feb 7, 2012 8:05 AM EST up reply actions
No but unlike GSP
I don’t want to see Carlos’s back the whole night as he runs away again. Carlos ‘The Track Star’ Condit.
That's your right and your opinion, I'm not gonna bother with this shit again.
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by Sweet Scientist on Feb 7, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Which fighter always stays in the pocket and trade? Very few. This is the UFC. You must be confusing UFC with replays of hockey fights on youtube.
by Kenya_MMA on Feb 6, 2012 7:30 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
Go away Fagan.
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by MicahtheCynic on Feb 6, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
All the time of course!
He wasn’t sub attempting vs Hardy. He wasn’t throwing many spinning kicks or throwing haymakers vs Sheilds. He ran from the shattered orbital bone vs Kos. He did nothing to make BJ call it quits before R5. Fitch looked so battered and bruised than GSP stayed away from him as well.
I tire of the sloppy GSP is boring comments. I understand the frustration of no definitive finishes of late. But it’s not like the guy ain’t trying.
I don’t fault him for Hardy or Fitch. Kos was a dead man walking and GSP did nothing in those late rounds to finish it off. Shields was so clearly inferior to GSP in every possible area, I have no idea how he didn’t finish that fight, eye or no eye.
by Hutchy on Feb 6, 2012 7:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I cant disagree with Kos fight
He could’ve finished that off if he pressed it. The Sheilds fight on the other hand… I mean, he had one eye. What else can you say about that?
GSP seemed to feel the push from the naysayers to finish it with a spectacular strike – the spinning kicks Rogan taught him or the wild, overhand rights vs Sheilds. He was trying. Not too well, but he was.
I beg to differ
Carlos does have the tools to beat GSP. He will have to do what he said at the post fight presser and create chaos with his standup to upset GSPs rhythm. When taken down he will have to inflict damage from the bottom and use his sweeps to reverse position.
I've been throwing spinning shit since 2008.
by traydawg on Feb 6, 2012 7:09 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
You say this like it's a simple thing
When taken down he will have to inflict damage from the bottom and use his sweeps to reverse position.
Who if anyone has been able to fight effectively from the bottom against GSP? When was the last time you saw GSP get on top of someone and get swept? If GSP gets on top of Carlos, Condit’s going to be screwed. GSP has the best top control in the entire division. Carlos won’t have anything for him.
"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
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by Worldisart on Feb 6, 2012 7:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I did not say condit WILL sweep him i was talking about gameplanning. I think carlos will need to disrupt GSPs jab and timing in the standup and like i said do damage from the bottom and/or sweep. Whether or not he can actually do that to GSP is another thing but he certainly possesses the tools.
I've been throwing spinning shit since 2008.
by traydawg on Feb 6, 2012 8:06 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I’ll eat my own ass if Condit manages to sweep GSP once. GSP will shoot from halfway across the cage and pass his guard all night. There is nothing Condit can do, no matter how tough he is. He just doesn’t have the skills and he’s not going to acquire them in 10 months.
If there is nothing he can do
then why should they fight?
I've been throwing spinning shit since 2008.
by traydawg on Feb 6, 2012 8:09 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
If i had to pick two guys who could be successful from the bottom against GSP
It would be Condit and Diaz. Diaz is better at grabbing the back and scrambling, but I think Condit could do the same.
by discoandherpes on Feb 6, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
GSP has one single weakness, just one: I think, for what it’s worth, that he’s mentally fragile. I dont even mean a frontrunner, necessarily , or not tough……but he can be flustered. You have to find a way to stay on your feet and pressure him. Rough him up, maybe foul him, anything to create doubt or hesitation in his mind. Is Condit the guy to do it? We shall see.
by Hutchy on Feb 6, 2012 7:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
that's just an assumption.
you can present some proof, but i got some too, to argue against it, i am a psych major myself, not that it holds any weight, but i haven’t seen any signs of mental abnormalities or signs of weakness in st peirre, his panic to loss of vision at 129, was a genuine reaction, not sure why it’s looked upon as something out of ordinary.
I believe it was before the second Matt Hughes fight, when he said that he was not impressed by Matt’s performance even though Matt was his idol – he actually said that the reason for saying such a thing was because he was mentally weak and afraid.
Although its only fair to say that he also se said he is in a different place now.
a lot of what he is says is lost in translation...
or gets misconstrued by fans and media, i think the guy is better off speaking in french, and getting a good translator, i too am sometimes baffled by his responses.
I've been saying it a few times, he definitely comes off better in french.
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by Sweet Scientist on Feb 7, 2012 8:09 AM EST up reply actions
Or the insta-tap to Hughes in the first fight with one second left in the round, a round he was dominating, which George himself said was from mental weakness……or the reaction to getting hit from Serra……or the dramatic reactions to the injury in the Alves fight. See, thats the endearing (and confusing, and hilarious) thing about GSP, the dude is ultra tough and a huge wuss all at the same time. He fought through that leg/groin injury against a prime Alves and still fought amazingly well while hurt…….all the while wincing, looking down at it, limping around, writhing on his stool between rounds, loudly complaining to Jackson between rounds about the pain, and then wincing through his post fight interview like he just got a battery acid enema. Hes clearly tough as nails. Hes also clearly not even remotely capable of putting up that “tough athlete” front that 99% of fighters put up.
I think a lot of the ‘GSP is mentally weak’ thing just stems from the fact that he isn’t scared to talk about his emotions and thoughts during the fight. That honesty though is what allowed him to really learn from his losses.
by MS_Dos_Santos on Feb 7, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
PErhaps because in the fight previous, Koscheck had his orbital bone literally crushed, and spent the next 4 rounds getting hit on it repeatedly, and never even showed a reaction. Contrast that to GSP writhing on his stool squealing “GREG!! MY EYE!! I CANT SEE!! IM BLIND!!! STOP THE FIGHT!!!” (I wish I was exaggerating, but thats actually pretty much what happened). See, the thing is, Im a huge GSP fan and have defended him repeatedly on these boards, I find his goofy overdramatic stuff endearing, but I could see how someone could take it the wrong way.
you are exaggerating a bit.
no point in that fight did he ask jackson to stop the fight, losing permanent vision in one eye is a significant moment in one’s life, regardless of their toughness.
Permanent vision?
His vision wasn’t effected permanently in that fight was it?
"Anyone who enjoys watching sport on television is an imbecile; a dangle-mouthed, cud-chewing, salivating ding-dong with a brain full of dim piss, blobbing out in front of a box watching a grunting thicko knock a ball round a field while their own sad carcass gently coagulates into a wobbling mass of beer and fat and thick white heart-attack gravy" - Charlie Brooker
by Mattyjudo on Feb 7, 2012 6:18 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
For all he knew at the time, It could have been .
Getting eye poked is scary stuff.
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Draft number: 72.
by Sweet Scientist on Feb 7, 2012 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
"Weakness" for a fighter doesn't equal abnormal,
I’m pretty confident a “normal” reaction would be to run the eff away! But a fighter is expected to have abnormal levels of heart.
To the extent that GSP has appeared weak in the heart department, one must point out that he has worked through those problems and overcome them consistently since the Serra loss.
I smoke on the mic like Smokin' Joe Frazier
Frustrated sounds right,
GSP (hell any UFC level fighter) isn’t “mentally weak” or he would never make it through training camp. But Jackson has always been adept at calming GSP down when he hits a bump on the road (e.g. pulling his groin, being poked in the eye, etc.).
BUT … GSP has (since his loss to Serra at least) always worked through the mental weakness/doubt/hesitation or whatever. So it may be a flaw, but it is one that he seems to have addressed rather well.
I smoke on the mic like Smokin' Joe Frazier
Hey man, Carlos Condit doesn't need this shit.
He should just retire as the acting UFC Welterweight Champion. So done with this shit.
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by McKinley B. Noble on Feb 6, 2012 7:08 PM EST reply actions 12 recs
Ahahahhahahahah. Funniest thing I read all year so far.
by GSP_RAMPAGE_COUTURE on Feb 6, 2012 7:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
very very funny
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women" -Homer Simpson
GSP has to fight someone.
"If I wanted to spend a half hour between two hairy legs I'd go to your mother's house." -Don Frye
by mburtoni on Feb 6, 2012 7:09 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Would be nice to see. I’ve heard more than a few times people saying that he is the true story behind the Jackson camp.
by Empty Thoughts on Feb 6, 2012 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
Huffing paint is bad for you
you should stop…
by NorCalTransplant on Feb 6, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You're a disgrace to Pantera fans.
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Part of Team Luke Thomas' Beard (LTB)
The 209: Where we don't fight unless there's five guys on one, run away from the media, cry like babies when we lose decisions, and get finished by convicted sex offenders. Follow @TheCynicsCorner
by MicahtheCynic on Feb 6, 2012 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Did a Diaz get finished by a sex offender?...what did I miss?
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women" -Homer Simpson
Diaz>GSP>Condit was in relation to how much I like the fighters
not necessarily how I think they relate to eachother skill wise, calm down
by Patrick Hughes on Feb 7, 2012 5:24 AM EST up reply actions
True enough
If GSP isn’t expected back until October or November ( I really see no point in him “RUSHing” to come back from a major knee injury) it doesn’t make much sense to have Condit sit around for 8 – 9 months.
Can you say: Rematch?
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Kid Nate: ...
I agree....but I dont want to see Condit get Pettis'd out of a title shot
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women" -Homer Simpson
Nope
I doubt they can get him to stop GSP takedowns if not stop them sweep or escape up to his feet long enough to do anything meaningful
Twitter @MaZZM
http://www.mazzznet.com/
Condit is at a huge disadvantage, coaching-wise.
Even without Jackson, GSP has Danaher (one of the brightest minds in MMA), Nurse, & Zahabi.
Condit gets Winklejohn, &…………………someone else?
by The Hamburger Pimp on Feb 6, 2012 8:06 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I'm just wondering how GSP
feels about not fighting Diaz. I remember after Diaz beat Penn DFW was saying how he’s never seen Georges so animated or pissed or whatever he said. I wonder if he’s relieved or upset he’s not Condit and not Nick now.
Just Breed!
by ScoreCardOTN on Feb 6, 2012 8:12 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Do you think
GSP “formally” leaving Jacksons’ MMA, in order to give Faras his dues, might sway Greg into cornering Condit?
I lean towards no, myself, but if GSP’s officially a Tri-Star team member it’s not too far fetched to think Jackson will be cornering Carlos.
Luke Thomas: If Pro Wrestling had a dick, you'd be the balls!
Kid Nate: ...
GSP is not formally leaving jackson's.
this is not like jones/evans situation, they are still on good terms with each other, after this fight, greg will be back with GSP, and no, i dont think jackson will corner carlos at all, unless something crazy happens, like serious allegations against either groups or other such controversy.
Jackson on Helwani's show today
said there’s no chance he corners Condit, and that GSP is definitely still on his team as far as he’s concerned. He also said he’s leaning in favor of cornering Jones against Rashad, but that he feels crappy about it, FWIW.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
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by Dave Strummer on Feb 6, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
hmmm...
i thought he and jones both confirmed jackson wont be in his corner vs evans, looks like jones needs greg more than we are led to believe.
Same here
Jon Jones is a contender to future superstardom and Greg Jackson will do what he has to do in order to reain Jones’ favor. Taking sides with Rashad has no upside for him anymore, except for keeping up perceptions in his camp that the training staff is indeed “neutral”.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
by KGNLuc on Feb 7, 2012 7:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think it's far fetched
GSP is the MMA superstar that put Greg Jackson on the map as a strategy-savant. There is no way Jackson will ever take any side other than St. Pierre’s. Being associated with him as his chief-strategist, having St. Pierre call him “Maestro” everywhere and such is worth more to him than Carlos Condit will most likely ever be. Unless Georges is coming back a changed man from his surgery or his career is otherwise finished, I can not imagine Jackson doing anything but stay on GSPs good side.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
We also shouldn't forget that Jackson's MMA is a business
And they get a cut of their fighters’ salaries. GSP and Jones are pulling down much more than Condit and Evans; from a business standpoint it would be logical to corner them against anyone else in the camp.
by MS_Dos_Santos on Feb 7, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
Neither Condit nor Nick ever had much of a shot
against a healthy GSP. The best bet Carlos has is that he’s coming straight back from a serious surgery into a championship caliber opponent.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
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True, but Carlos is going to have a long layoff until that point. Either way, I’m still excited for the fight. Not as much trash talk as there would have been in GSP/Diaz, but I think the actual fight will be a lot better.
I mean, chances are if GSP fought Diaz, he would have used a similar strategy to Condit, on top of using his awesome grappling.
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by MicahtheCynic on Feb 6, 2012 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
In either case, I see GSP mixing strikes and takedowns
landing that stiff jab at will and then shooting for takedowns whenever Condit tries to counter. Posture up in guard, land strikes, lather, rinse, repeat for five rounds.
I’m not the hugest fan of watching it, but its pretty unstoppable. Condit and Diaz both have dangerous guards, and both are good in a scramble, but I see Condit doing everything in the world just to stand up, only to get dumped on his ass again.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
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by Dave Strummer on Feb 6, 2012 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
That's why GSP is terrifying
You really need to be just as well rounded as he is to compete. Koscheck was able to effectively neutralize GSP’s wrestling in their second fight, but then he’s still left in a stand-up battle against a pretty elite kickboxer.
Condit is very well-rounded and can probably compete wherever the fight goes, but I don’t think he’s better than GSP at anything.
by MS_Dos_Santos on Feb 7, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
I would be pissed if I were Condit
GSP already has his peeps in Firas Zahabi, John Danaher, and Phil Nurse. I would be upset if my coach from my camp refused to corner me when a guy who mainly does his training elsewhere has a full corner.
there's more to blame condit....
than GSP for this (not saying that you are), st peirre has worked diligently by traveling and making connections over the years, while carlos stuck to Albuquerque, GSP will also have renzo grazie on his team. being genuinely nice and open to new friendships pays off, something diaz bros need to take note of.
by carmine99 on Feb 6, 2012 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Condit hasn't always been at Jacksons
But I still think Greg Jackson not taking a side is weak. He is one of the best corner men in MMA.
by discoandherpes on Feb 6, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
18 month layoff
Look, GSP will say that he is back and better than ever but the fact remains that he will be coming off of an 18 month layoff (if the fight is in November) and be less than 12 months removed from major knee surgery. Pretty much every elite athlete says they don’t feel right until 2 years after ACL surgery, GSP will be no different.
GSP will be nowhere near 100% for this fight and I think Condit is good enough to take advantage of that. GSP might be able to win ugly, but I wouldn’t expect the same level of perfection that we have come to expect from GSP. Condit will have a great chance in thus one.
by Pillowhands on Feb 7, 2012 12:09 AM EST via iPhone app reply actions
GSP also gets rattled sometimes in his fights...
Like when he pulled his groin against Alves, or got poked in the eye by Shields. In both instances, Greg Jackson got him to calm down, stop worrying and focus on the fight again.
What’s he gonna do without Jackson in his corner, if something happens to throw him of his game, in the fight against Condit?
I don't know if that would be a problem
If John Danaher was in his corner he could probably calm him down if anything like that happened.
by discoandherpes on Feb 7, 2012 2:10 AM EST up reply actions
Not in the Alves fight
He basically just told him to suck it up there. He definitely did calm him down in the Shields fight.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
I think you bring up a good point,
which is that losing Greg from their corner hurts both Georges and Carlos equally. It’s a wash.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 21, 2012 3:39 AM EST up reply actions
Condits way to the victory: Kick GSP as hard as you can in the balls first thing that happens and keep kicking him om the knee för tove rounds…
by blodpalt on Feb 7, 2012 4:44 AM EST via mobile reply actions
GSP's knees will decide who wins his next fight
I smoke on the mic like Smokin' Joe Frazier
I'd say for Carlos there's more good than bad to the situation.
Obviously the shot at a title, no matter how slim it seems, is good, but he’s also going to get GSP at the best possible time, coming off a huge layoff. I don’t expect Condit to win, but it’s the best case scenario he could ask for. The Greg Jackson thing is a wash IMO.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 21, 2012 3:45 AM EST reply actions
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