Why do people watch MMA for masterful striking?
by HeartbreakShot on Feb 5, 2012 5:34 PM EST
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After some of the reaction concerning the Diaz-Condit fight, it just got me wondering, why do people watch MMA for striking? I'm not gonna lie, in terms of MMA i'm still abit of a noob at the moment, ive watched much more boxing, but when i watch MMA i don't get overly excited by the striking, and ofcourse, why would they box as well as actual boxers. What gets me more excited is the submissions and the use of TDs and transitions, it's something different from MMA
I know that MMA is Mixed Martial Arts so striking is a big big part of it but for some reason ive got it tuned that the TDs, grappling and all the rest of it is more 'MMA' than boxing is. I also understand that the striking can be exciting for some people, (like i said, it excites me but not OVERLY, simply because if i want masterful striking, or slugging, or people just throwing punches for a whole night, i can just watch boxing for that
This whole post is gonna sound silly to alot of people, but maybe we can discuss...
PS - My take on the Condit fight was that he did well, executing a good gameplan, to be honest, i saw IKilled007's post and he didn't seem too happy with the manner of the fight, i see where he's coming from ofcourse but at the same time it's easy for us lol, were watching the fight, for Condit, any form of trading couldve been disastrous, and at the end of the day, him losing wouldnt affect us in any way, so ofcourse we can moan but he's actually in the situation, if that makes sense
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smaller gloves
diverse styles
threat of takedown
all make it more interesting than boxing/kickboxing
www.themindofshadow.blogspot.com/
by dbcb on Feb 5, 2012 5:43 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
For me, it's even more than that.
You can strike ANYWHERE in MMA. Standing, in the clinch, on the ground… I love all strikes. I love that in MMA, you have so many different positions and phases to strike from.
And of course, there’s the “real” factor. It’s not realistic to think that a fight would stay on the feet the entire time, unless 2 men deliberately make it so. In MMA, you know that the strikes used can truly be used effectively in a fight. And it’s more than just the strikes, it’s the whole approach that is more realistic. As opposed to traditional Muay Thai, where fighters relentlessly press forward and stand their ground, 8- point striking in MMA generally requires alot more movement and balance.
The notion that the only way to “outstrike” someone is while you’re standing… it’s ludicrous. People make the assertion that Cheick Kongo “outstruck” Cain Velasquez, which I find ridiculous. Sure- he landed some bombs WHEN THEY WERE STANDING. But Cain landed so many more strikes than Kongo, it isn’t even funny. I think in a fight, “outstriking” literally means whoever lands a higher volume and power of strikes, ANYWHERE. Doesn’t matter whether you’re standing or on the ground.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 6, 2012 12:55 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
For me, the "real factor" is huge
Boxing may have the most refined striking, but it’s too contrived. It’s the best striking IF you have a ref separating the clinch, IF you have giant gloves, IF you can use a stance that is awful for leg kicks and TDD, and IF you don’t have to worry about leg kicks. The whole allure of combat sports is how visceral it is, and with MMA all these boxing rules stick out like a sore thumb to me, ruining that feeling.
However, I disagree with you about the term “outstrike”. I think it refers to standup, and is similar to “outwrestle” and “outgrapple”, all which refer to superiority in a specific discipline. For strikes from all positions, I would use “outlanded”, which is a term with more generic connotations.
by paythefighters on Feb 6, 2012 6:20 AM EST up reply actions
I consider boxing an interesting experiment.
“Hey, what would happen if instead of really fighting, we just agreed to only ever punch eachother in the front of the head and the front of the body?”
“And you seriously can’t do anything else?”
“Nope. Just punching. We’ll call it ‘Queensbury’ because it shall be a sport for little girly men.”
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 6, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
I tought we were good. :(
BECW season 2 member of the Intellegent Northern English Picking Team.
Draft number: 72.
by Sweet Scientist on Feb 6, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions
thought*
BECW season 2 member of the Intellegent Northern English Picking Team.
Draft number: 72.
by Sweet Scientist on Feb 6, 2012 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Haha, I'm just kidding man.
I really don’t dislike boxing. It isn’t my favorite, but I do enjoy some of the better fighters.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 6, 2012 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
No problem, man. that's how I took it.
BTW, I went and rescored Diaz-Condit without being in 209 mode (stoned as hell with no sleep) and had it 49-46 Condit.
Those punches in the first 2 rounds weren’t as clean as I thought initially. I still think those are 2 close rounds that could have gone Diaz’s way but 10-10 or 10-9 Condit seems to me as the most reasonable upon rewatching. Even the fifth could be 10-10 or go Condit’s way.
Overall I feel like Condit was as clear a winner as can be in a fight that close (don’t know if that makes sense). I still feel like a Diaz 48-47 card is defensible but feel much less confident in the argument for it.
BECW season 2 member of the Intellegent Northern English Picking Team.
Draft number: 72.
by Sweet Scientist on Feb 6, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
You have seen the light, my son!!
It was a damn close fight, though. I just thought that Condit was always one step ahead of Nick.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 6, 2012 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Girly men? Seriously?
I don’t think anyone fighting in any combat sport at an elite level can be considered to be a girly man…
by HeartbreakShot on Feb 6, 2012 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'll disagree and agree with you at the same time.
This guy is a girly man.
But he’s also a tough badass. Girly =/= wussy.
Share for share, share alike, you'll get struck each time I strike.
by gzl5000 on Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Mike Kogan: He punches like a girl, he shouldn't be the favorite to win this tournament
Then Nagashima proceeds to rip through the K-1 Japan Max tournament with three straight stoppages.
by discoandherpes on Feb 6, 2012 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, didn't expect people to take that so literally
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 6, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm, i disagree with more interesting
Only because when i watch MMA, Boxing, or Kickboxing, i’m watching them for different reasons, making them all appealing to me, although i do find Kickboxing kinda boring lol
I think Boxing is the worse combat sport. All they can do is punch and the fights are constantly restarted over and over, because they can’t even punch in the clinch.
I am free because I choose to be so-Me
Well that isn’t the case with every fighter, usually breaks are short, i see where you’re coming from though
Alot of the elite boxers possess amazing skill though, it’s great to watch
When was the last time you watched?
by HeartbreakShot on Feb 5, 2012 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
A couple reasons
Most importantly, everything is possible. Striking is so much more interesting (and more natural) when there’s the possibility of a takedown or an extended clinch. It’s also uglier most of the time, because MMA is still very new. But what can you do.
Also, kickboxing is too short. That’s one of the biggest reasons I’ve had trouble getting into kickboxing – it’s too easy for an inferior fighter to win a 9-minute striking match.
Haha yeah..
I thought MMA striking looked so so odd the first time i started watching, but yeah it adds a different element when someone’s striking can lead to them being taken down, adds so much risk (and reward)
Yeah there was a time when i was kinda into Kickboxing, but not so much anymore, its a shame Hari retired as well, makes it even more boring
by HeartbreakShot on Feb 5, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve actually been watching a lot of classic boxing matches lately, and I’m consistently amazed at how graceful they are. Like when James Toney does his thing, it’s just so artful. MMA’s got a long way to go before it gets there.
Modern kickboxing is actually a really new sport too. I think it started in the 60’s or something. Though Muay Thai is ancient.
Oh yeah..
It’s amazing to watch, even now PBF in full flow is a great watch, guy shoulder rolls everything, so smooth
Do you think MMA will ever get to that level of striking? Will it even be necessary, i think it’s a misconception that the perfect Boxing styles can translate directly to MMA due to things like TDs etc that have to be in factored in, so i dunno if you’ll ever really see James Toney esque moves, cos it might not be really needed
by HeartbreakShot on Feb 5, 2012 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
A perfect boxing style wouldn’t really translate in MMA, However the skill level of striking in MMA can and will, in my opinion, evolve. Be it pure striking or the blending of striking techniques with the grappling techniques. I think the sport is too young for that not to happen.
BECW season 2 member of the Intellegent Northern English Picking Team.
Draft number: 72.
by Sweet Scientist on Feb 5, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, we’re never going to see a guy fight like Toney or Mayweather in the cage, because that’s just not a style that works with kicks and knees and grappling.
Right now MMA is basically borrowing from boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc. and tweaking it a little to fit our sport. But we’re experimenting. Eventually MMA striking will take on its own unique flavor, and we’ll see our own version of the elegant striker. But that’s going to take a LONG time.
Yeah true
Thats an interesting point, a style unique to MMA which suits the sport more so than any other, lol it is pretty exciting too see what’ll be like
by HeartbreakShot on Feb 5, 2012 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
You try rolling your shoulders and bobbing and weaving in MMA
You’re going to get your head kicked off. You have very little room to move your head in MMA.
by discoandherpes on Feb 5, 2012 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Anderson Silva does pretty well dodging punches although he certainly doesn’t drop his head into the kick like the white-shorted fool in the gif.
The white shorted fool was a professional boxer
KJ Noons comes from a boxing base, where he had an 11-2 record, and still has some unfortunate boxing tendencies that he brings to MMA matches.
Also Anderson Silva is the best striker in MMA and the person Freddy Roach identified as the best boxer in MMA, so that’s kind of an unfair comparison. Noons, although not always the most likable fellow, generally has very solid striking.
NO! Bad Chromium.
KJ does not bring “unfortunate boxing tendencies.” KJ bring bad technique. I hate, hate, hate people taking KJ’s boxing record as some proof of his elite boxing skills. KJ is a good puncher, but HE IS GARBAGE as a striker.
Point being, KJ’s mistake against Masvidal wasn’t exaggerating his head movement, it was leaving his hands down at his sides like he always, always, always does. He also (evident in the last gif in this post, above) bends at the waist instead of the knees when moving his head, which is a no-no in boxing as well as MMA. Even when he’s winning, he drops his hands and his timing and power saves him.
KJ Noons: Professional puncher, perennial face-blocker.
Share for share, share alike, you'll get struck each time I strike.
by gzl5000 on Feb 5, 2012 10:13 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
This.
BECW season 2 member of the Intellegent Northern English Picking Team.
Draft number: 72.
by Sweet Scientist on Feb 6, 2012 6:57 AM EST up reply actions
I mean... Chris Lytle pro boxing record is arguably better and is definitely as good as Noons'.
Nobody goes around claiming Chris Lytle is some kind of elite boxer.
BECW season 2 member of the Intellegent Northern English Picking Team.
Draft number: 72.
by Sweet Scientist on Feb 6, 2012 7:09 AM EST up reply actions
KJ's an idiot.
And he always drops his hands. This is a better example.
Share for share, share alike, you'll get struck each time I strike.
Truth
It was just the first thing that came to mind.
by discoandherpes on Feb 6, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Diversity in striking. Ther's so much things you can do it's a great strategic and technical puzzle.
Also the fact that the sport is still very young, the stand up level in MMA is the part of the game that’s still at the lowest level and so is still evolving, it’s exciting as hell.
BECW season 2 member of the Intellegent Northern English Picking Team.
Draft number: 72.
I think the only thing left for MMA strikers to evolve is actual punching
Everything else has pretty much been mastered by different people.
by discoandherpes on Feb 5, 2012 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
Clinch striking too.
But I agree with Disco that the most flagrant area to evolve is the punching, although the general defensive aspect of striking can still evolve a lot too.
BECW season 2 member of the Intellegent Northern English Picking Team.
Draft number: 72.
by Sweet Scientist on Feb 6, 2012 7:01 AM EST up reply actions
Defense is always going to not be as potent in MMA compared to other combat sports
Smaller gloves lead to more damage (whether your Diaz and stacking on the punches or Hendo using one punch to get it done) and a smaller tool to defend with. You have to take your chances with a small glove defending your temple or risk a body shot and use your shoulders and elbows.
by discoandherpes on Feb 6, 2012 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
You're right.
But there is more to defense than blocking. Slipping, movement and understanding your optimal distances are all as important as blocking in defense. Those area IMO can and will evolve. This is a young sport, we’re still experimenting with what works and what doesn’t right now.
BECW season 2 member of the Intellegent Northern English Picking Team.
Draft number: 72.
by Sweet Scientist on Feb 7, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
That's a pretty good point
Although defensive footwork has pretty much been figured out in regards to fighting wrestlers, there are other areas of defense that can be developed.
Ultimately though, I think MMA is largely going to be an exception to the “defense wins championships” mentality in the overall sports world.
by discoandherpes on Feb 7, 2012 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
That is a good point
People didn’t learn from Rampage/Liddell 1, Maynard/Emerson, and Nog/Ortiz that ground and pound to the body it not only effective in the long term, it opens up the head for strikes as well.
by discoandherpes on Feb 6, 2012 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Anderson. Silva.
Police have mounted a Phuket-wide hunt
by warren305 on Feb 5, 2012 11:55 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Even Silva is not the final line in MMA striking development
His matrix shit is a sight to behold, but it puts him in an awful position to defend a takedown. It won’t work against a quick wrestler, so he (and we as fans) have been fortunate that he’s only faced one of them so far.
It’s also what makes the dream matchup with GSP so intriguing. Two very elite yet very different striking defenses going up against each other.
by paythefighters on Feb 6, 2012 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
Chael Sonnen didn't have success against him because of the wrestling
It’s because Sonnen threw hands with him just long enough so that the second he felt comfortable, he was forced to switch into grappling mode.
by discoandherpes on Feb 6, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
Because so so-called “masterful striking” in other sports is useless if you get taken down and your arm is snapped? Just me.
I'd rather be trollin'.
Exactly
The reason MMA fighters don’t always look as technical and pretty in there striking is because you aren’t just free to concentrate on hands and kicks. The great MMA strikers are the people who combine effective striking with movement and footwork to stay out of clinches and takedowns.
That's a very fair point
Didn’t really think of it that way…
by HeartbreakShot on Feb 6, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
Because this is the only sport where you aren't restricted (much) to be the best striker possible on a more realistic playing field.
Obviously most MMA fighters won’t stand a chance at trying to “out-box” boxers, but boxing doesn’t allow kicks, elbows, knees, let along takedowns and submissions, so they’re also more likely to lose even if the bout remains standing.
K-1 has that weird no 2 hands when throwing a knee strike from the clinch rule, and they also don’t allow elbows (IIRC). Plus, they use bigger gloves and don’t allow takedowns, which makes the striking game very different from MMA.
Muay Thai is pretty close to MMA striking, but aside from the large gloves and no ground game / submissions, the sport also has weird rules on who is winning the striking battle.
You might know better than me
Isn’t there a kickboxing style in Asia that allows wrestling style take downs?
by discoandherpes on Feb 6, 2012 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
Sanshou/ Sanda
it’s what Cung Le competed and made his name in. I think it’s basically Muay Thai rules (minus the elbows IIRC), with wrestling takedowns being allowed
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 6, 2012 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting
Sounds about right. I am off to google. Thanks.
by discoandherpes on Feb 6, 2012 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
No knees either IIRC.
BECW season 2 member of the Intellegent Northern English Picking Team.
Draft number: 72.
by Sweet Scientist on Feb 7, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
I think it depends which organization sanctions it.
From IKF’s website:
SAN SHOU – SANDA RULES
Fighters may strike with Punches above the waist, Kicks above the waist and to the inside and outside of each fighters legs (Not groin or leg joints), Knees to the head, body and legs, Elbow strikes to the head, body and legs and Throw with the described throwing techniques explained below. Direct (Side Kick Style) kicks to the front of a fighters legs Are NOT ALLOWED.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 7, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
The Difference Is...
A MMA striker can’t outbox a boxer
a MMA wrestler can’t outwrestle a wreslter
in general if all else is equal
it would be the same for a MMA grappler versus a straight grappler
or any other martial art, muay thai, karate,, BJJ, judo etc.
by their own rules it would be difficult for a MMA fighter to beat someone of similar experience and skill level at their own game
I prefer MMA to the others for it is indeed “mixed” and a MMA fighter has to be profecient at all the skills but not necessarily the master of them all
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