Condit's masterful gameplan.
by Hart Thorson on Feb 5, 2012 1:31 AM EST
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Hi everyone. Look, first things first, I am no writer and I am excited after seeing a good card. Tonight was a fun night of fights. I wanted to comment real quick about the Diaz/Condit fight. This fight was awesome.
Let me get this out of the way just so you aren't wondering, I am a huge fan of Carlos Condit, always have been. I like the Diaz brothers, I love the way they fight, and I love watching them do what they do. Tonight's fight was fantastic.
I've already read through a lot of the comments and of course people are complaining about Condit "back pedaling." There was no Octagon control by Diaz and Condit was not back pedaling. He had a great game plan and he executed well.
There were many great things about this fight one being the fact that Carlos kept trying to land big shots and did on Diaz. The ONLY time Diaz landed good shots on Condit was when he was up against the cage. I seriously don't understand how it is running away when someone doesn't want to be backed up against a cage against a fighter who excels in that position. That's like complaining about someone not getting stuck on the cage against Randy Couture.
Condit had the better of the exchanges when it was in the center of the cage. He kept landing and his "weak" leg kicks did damage as shown when Nick was wobbled by one a few of them in the 5th. What do you think Nick and Nate do throughout their entire fights? Are you opposed to the pitter patter that breaks opponents down? I'm certainly not. I love seeing them do that, but I love seeing someone do that to them even more.
I really really hate to say this but Diaz was exposed this evening. Now this doesn't mean I think he is a terrible fighter. He is one of the best however we saw that his past opponents up to this point have fallen into the Diaz trap. They started brawling with him, they were stuck against the cage, and they freaked out when they started to get hit. Kudos to Diaz for that. Tonight we saw Condit make Nick fight his fight.
Lastly very sad to see a great fighter like Nick Diaz resorting to taunting in the final round to try to get Condit into the fight. C'mon dude, go after him. Have the balls to come in and take the fight to him. I cannot stress enough that this wasn't a case of Octagon control. Diaz was not throwing until Carlos was near or on the cage.
Anyway, great night of fights. I wanted to get this out there. From here, I think we are going to see an aggressive badass Condit against GSP. I for one sincerely hope that Carlos takes out GSP.
Thanks everyone.
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Condit's performance was masterful.
I like Diaz as well, but Carlos tooled Nick.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
Not sure why it took Nick so long to look for the takedowns. It was pretty clear Nicks game plan wasnt gonna get the W after the 3rd or maybe even the 2nd round. He could have won had he mixed things up a bit. Oh well…..hindsight it beautiful. But happy Condit got the win…..been a big fan for a while.
Nick isn't exactly a takedown machine.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 5, 2012 5:41 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree,
Carlos set those up and timed them very well, and threw them with crisp technique.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 5, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously
No octagon control? Diaz controlled the center of the octagon for 5 rounds and did have Condit back pedaling the whole time. He kicked his back leg in the 5th as Diaz was shifting his weight to that leg versus attacking the front leg the rest of the fight. Diaz showed no evidence of damage to the front leg. Lastly, Diaz came forward the whole fight and tried to to take the fight to Condit, but Condit wanted no part of it. Plain and simple, Diaz won rounds 1,3, and 5 but non-knowledgeable MMA judges gift wrapped it fot Condit.
Yeah, buckling someone with a low kick DEFINITELY isn't a sign of an accumulation of punishment.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 5, 2012 1:55 AM EST up reply actions
Octagon control has very low priority in determining who wins a fight
but non-knowledgeable MMA fans like to bitch anyway when their guy loses
by Shaun32887 on Feb 5, 2012 1:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Right
Because that’s not one of the criteria in scoring a fight. Oh wait….they say it at the beginning of every fight.
I said low priority
not non-priority.
Read the rules. Octagon control is a factor if all other dimensions are equal. If one guy is maintaining the range that he’s most effective at, landing strikes, and using footwork to avoid the areas that his opponent is best in, then he wins the round, regardless of octagon control.
Not to mention, moving forward isn’t effective octagon control, especially when it doesn’t aid your offense in the slightest.
A writer looking for a new home.
Part of Team Luke Thomas' Beard (LTB)
You may like Diaz, but Brock actually won a title that mattered.
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by MicahtheCynic on Feb 5, 2012 5:57 AM EST up reply actions
YES.
just reinforces once again that CECIL PEOPLES HAS NO BUSINESS EVER JUDGING AN MMA FIGHT EVER AGAIN.
likewise Patricia Morse Jarman.
the third judge – who’s name I can’t remember is also an idiot but perhaps not an unforgivable one.
by Bennett Von Bennett on Feb 5, 2012 2:18 AM EST up reply actions
Moving forward..
but getting beaten to the puch for almost the entire fight does’nt count as octagon control. I got frustrated by the fight, but don’t fool yourself into thinking Diaz won that fight.
That's the best part of the fighting world.
Diaz was walking towards him throughout the fight but as I mentioned wasn’t throwing until Condit was towards the cage. Condit kept throwing combos, spinning techniques, etc. in the middle of the cage. Again, it’s wise to not get stuck on the cage, it’s not a stupid thing.
Of course Condit doesn’t want to get put up against the cage of Diaz. He is a smart guy. How would you have gone into this fight? Would you have seriously stood in front of Nick Diaz and risk getting pushed into the cage? I mean, honestly? Condit was landing and landing well. Look at Diaz’s face.
nope.
Nick landed laser punches on him in rounds 1 & 2, saying Condit was throwing more strikes completely ignores the fact that Diaz landed a much higher number of effective strikes. Carlos barely landed a single square shot in the first 10 min of that fight.
by Bennett Von Bennett on Feb 5, 2012 2:21 AM EST up reply actions
We needs some gifs
of how he got off the cage. There were some nice ones where he aimed for a counter to the body right as he moves away from Nick.
he was kind of
Punching under him on the way out too. Just sliding right by! That was some slick shit, I can’t believe he could keep up the circling, man that was epic dedication. I am still baffled that people don’t appreciate what he just did. I found that fight totally absorbing. Nick had a tactic, Carlos countered it, and pointed him That fight could have gone another three rounds, and it needed to. Just the way it is. But I still thought that as a counter tactic that came with a really high cost of effort and consistency, he executed it perfectly.
Diaz needed that takedown about a minute and a half earlier. With a little more time, If he had that back control with the lock on, game over.
I thought Lay N Pray was a stupid insult until I watched Tyrone Woodly fight.
by DankNabbot on Feb 5, 2012 3:08 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Diaz failed mentally
If he knew he was losing on the scorecards, he shouldn’t have gone out and done the same thing every round.
If he thought he was winning on the scorecards, then he failed to inform himself of how scoring works – or he knew how scoring works but he failed to look at the situation objectively as it happened.
I think the third option happened
coz Nick is one proud SOB and he thinks he’s the best fighter in the world, and he is one of the best but he expects the opponent play into his game and when this doesn’t happen, he doesn’t adjust but continues with the same strategy and when the fight is lost he just says F*ck my opponent for not playing my game and f*ck MMA coz obviously I should’ve won since obviously I am the best fighter in the world etc. This is just a lame attitude and dishonest approach to the fighting. He should’ve given credit to Carlos Condit after the fight, because it wasn’t those ‘baby kicks’ that busted his face. It was those solid left hooks, straight rights, elbows, spinning fists and high kicks that did it.
All in all again great fight.
As heated as I am sure everyone is right now I just want to say thanks to everyone commenting on this. This is the first fanpost I’ve done. I literally look at this website multiple times a day and I respect a lot of your points of view when it comes to this stuff. I have been following MMA since the very first UFC and I’m excited that there is a place like this to have great conversation. To those of you who disagree with me, thanks for posting. To those of you who agree with me thanks for posting.
Alright, back to the arguing. :0)
I like Condit, but..
He made the fight pretty boring when it should have been great. He didn’t do that much but try to edge out rounds. I didn’t care who won, I just wanted a great fight because it should have been, but wasn’t.
Good post.
I had faith that Carlos had the power and the footwork to keep Nick from being able to land on him in “bunches” and he did. And more than that, was the composure to sneer right through Nick’s weak ass taunting act and posturing, and just rip your kicks even harder. Everytime Nick tried to kick, which looked much improved IMO, Carlos was tagging him to the head. Just wore him out on his own pace by being the rock with leg kicks. Nick broke himself on them, couldn’t make any adjustments, and lost his cool and fire at the same time. Pretty disappointing performance, though I was rooting for Condit.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 5, 2012 3:07 AM EST reply actions
I'm surprised so many people are criticizing Carlos,
leaving out those who are clearly just hating. Combat at every level is about manuever and the ability to concentrate force on an opponent’s weakness. That’s what it is. Hockey fights aren’t technical, and rarely display any skill. This wasn’t going to be Frye/Takayama. Nick will cool down and while he’ll never admit it publicly, will realize his mistakes, and as a boxing afficionado, will have to give Carlos his due. Most of the boxers Nick trains with and respects use a ton of great footwork and head movement and don’t just sit in the pocket trading bombs. It was foolish to expect Carlos to do otherwise, and to have no plan or ability to make adjustments infight.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 5, 2012 3:00 PM EST reply actions
I don't think "it was foolish to expect Carlos to do otherwise."
Look at the BE staff predictions for the fight. Read Luke Thomas’s article on Condit, Diaz, and “gameness.” No one expected Condit to utilize an elusive and cautious stand-up game.
I mean, you weren’t surprised?
No, I was surprised it was successful.
I expected it to be a similar gameplan to Cerrone’s, just hoped Carlos would be more effective. Yeah, I thought at points they’d collide in the pocket and throw, and that only happened a few times, but Nick looked to be wary of getting in the clinch too, so he was tying Condit up there instead of throwing. The gameness thing would have required someone to get rocked and fight back, and the problem there, is that neither of them has great one shot power, requiring the other to recover. I understand that a lot of us expected Carlos to just bang it out, but I don’t get why Nick would be surprised that a guy would use movement to frustrate him.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 6, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Gameness doesn't require someone to get rocked; it simply requires risk-taking.
Condit has good one-shot power, just not on the outside. The fact that Condit chose to stay on the outside for the vast majority of a 5 round fight was—to say the least—a reversal of his usual manner of fighting.
What you said about Diaz tying Condit up in the clinch touches on something a lot of Diaz fans won’t admit: Diaz was fighting cautiously too. I think Diaz was scared of the takedown; as a result, he avoided the clinch, was extremely flat-footed (even for him), and never “jogged” laterally in order to cut Condit off.
Unlike Diaz, however, Condit planned to win by decision. One look at Condit’s record will tell you why so many people—including Diaz—were fooled into thinking the fight would be a war.
Listen,
like I said, I wasn’t surprised at Carlos’ gameplan, as Cerrone had just tried to do the same thing, just not as skillfully. And Carlos is a more disciplined, cool headed guy than Donald. What I was surprised at was how bad Nick looked, making no adjustments, looking slow, never anticipating that Carlos was going to slip past his right to the center of the cage everytime his back hit the fence. I was just surprised that Nick wasn’t able to deal with it. I thought Carlos would probably be able to take rounds that way, and probably land a huge shot or two along the way, but would tire more quickly and by the third round he and Nick would be going toe-to-toe. As it was, Nick couldn’t solve it, and while a bunch of headkicks and knees were close to being devastating, they never landed flush, or landed with the foot rather than the shin when they did. They were at clinch range a lot of times, and perhaps you’re right, but I thought Nick was more concerned with Carlos’ Thai Plum and wanted the fight at boxing range, whereas Carlos controlled the distance all the way keeping Nick at the end of his kicks. I’ve been an giant fan of Condit since his first WEC fight, and the thing people missed beforehand is that Carlos doesn’t have a simple style like Nick does. Carlos has fought a greater array of skillsets than Nick in the last few years and he’s dealt with each situation differently. I agree that the lack of gameness in this fight was on Carlos’, but he picked the right fight to rein himself in, and I like his chances against Georges at least as well as Nick’s. The buildup just won’t be as entertaining. If Georges is out too long, then I’d be up for a rematch, cause it wasn’t a decisive outcome, even as a decision.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 7, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I was also surprised by Diaz's inability to effectively adjust.
Diaz did ineffectively adjust: he looked for a single-leg, threw more slow-motion kicks, and decided to let Carlos stand on the outside in the center of the cage. When I was actually watching the fight, my gut impression of Diaz was that—by the 3rd round—his frustration had turned into apathy. Not a great quality in a fighter. I really don’t think Cerrone tried to do the same thing as Condit, however. Cerrone had just knocked out Oliveira and Siver, and I’m pretty sure he thought he was going to KO Diaz. Also, compare Cerrone’s leg kicks to Condit’s—Cerrone was striking with power.
I imagine it’s really hard to be both elusive and dangerous, to get on your bicycle one moment and sit down on your punches the next. Like you said, Condit has a great array of skills, but he doesn’t have in-cage experience with an elusive style. In my opinion, the strikes that appeared “close to being devastating” were far from. Condit was landing as hard as he could without compromising his newfound style; unfortunately, it wasn’t that hard.
I suppose I should have written:
Condit was striking as dangerously as he could without compromising his newfound style, etc.
P.S. I’m not sure if you knew this, but Muad’dib is a killing word.
and rec'd.
Fortunately you’re all safe on the intertubes.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 7, 2012 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
The headkicks would've knocked Nick on his ass if they'd landed with the shin instead of the foot,
and I absolutely disagree about the leg kicks. Carlos has good kicks, what’s more, everytime Nick put his hands down to taunt, Carlos took the opportunity to just rip him with perfect balance and full force, and no need for defense. Nick is just a tough son of a bitch.
As to Cerrone, you may be right, but Greg Jackson claimed it was the same game plan just yesterday. It’s just that Donald doesn’t have the discipline to deal with Nate’s shit talking. He got pissed and was conflicted between the plan and his desire to just throw down.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 7, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
Carlos's headkicks landed with the foot instead of the shin...
Because he was trying to stay on the outside—it wasn’t an accident, but a direct result of Condit’s caution. As for the leg kicks, Cyborg did more damage to Nick w/ leg kicks in less than 2 rounds (i.e., Nick was actually limping.) than Carlos did in 5. Nick gets hurt, wobbled, and knocked down in his fights a lot; off the top of my head, Noons, Zaromskis, and Daley all dropped him. Diaz is tough, but the reason he (1) didn’t appear to be hurt by the leg kicks and (2) claimed Carlos was throwing “baby kicks” may be because Carlos wasn’t “[ripping] him with perfect balance and full force.” According to Fightmetric, Condit landed 68 leg strikes. 68! Can you imagine if Jose Aldo had landed 68 leg strikes on Diaz? Diaz would be tooling around Stockton in a wheelchair like a drive-by victim.
Anyhow, good argument. I didn’t know that Greg Jackson had given the same anti-Diaz gameplan to Cerrone. I’m not sure if it would have mattered, but it was probably a good thing for Condit that Cerrone went off the rails in his fight against Nate.
You do make a good point that if those had been Jose Aldo's kicks,
it would’ve been all over.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Feb 8, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
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