Nogueira's Conspiracy Theory: MMA Judges Are Biased Against Brazilians
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 22, 2012 1:20 PM EST
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PRIDE and UFC star, Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, or 'Big Nog' has a conspiracy theory. He thinks there's a rivalry between American's and Brazilian's, and he implies that MMA Judges in the US are biased against the Brazilians.
He said as much when he talked to Globo TV. Here's a translation from Bloody Elbow's own Orcus:
"Americans have a rivalry with Brazilians, that is obvious. And why is that? It’s because the UFC has three hundred fighters under contract, and from those three hundred fighters we are fifty. The Brazilians are fifty, and we have more belts than they do."
"So from three hundred we are fifty, and with those fifty we get there and take care of business. They win (more) because they have more (people), they have a bigger infrastructure inside their gyms, they have support for the sport since they’re kids. But the sport is growing in Brazil and I believe that..."
"They look at us with (malicious) eyes, let’s say it like that. If you’re going to fight an American in the US you have to win the fight with emphasis because otherwise… You can’t win it by a thin margin."
Off the top of my head, the only controversial decision involving a Brazilian fighter losing to an American fighter recently, would be Lyoto Machida losing that razor thin decision against Quinton Jackson. For the record, I do disagree with that decision, but even then, it was a really close fight, and it wasn't really a robbery.
We do see a few crazy scorecards every now and then, but I don't think we can really blame that on nationalism, racism, or whatever, rather than them simply being bad at judging fights.
Nog's brother, Rogerio was even awarded one of those controversial decisions. I wonder if Jason Brilz has his own conspiracy theory on this.
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I asked Dana White about these comments by Nog and this is what he said
“First of all, what he said I think is racist, he’s made a couple racist comments, and yes, Nog, you’re racist with the stuff that you said.
"Heaven doesn’t want me and hell is afraid I will take over". - Bobby Czyz
by PhinsAllDay on Feb 22, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
those punches from fedor that bounced his head off the mat are finally catching up with him, kinda suprising to hear such a thing, mma fans are the most unationalistic people ever, we pledge alliegance to whoever kicks ass! lol
by ShogunDaChamp on Feb 22, 2012 1:04 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
...
mma fans are the most unationalistic people ever
I’m not so sure about that. If the card is in the US, and an American is fighting a non-American, “USA” chants will be had. Without fail.
"No person can disobey reason, without giving up his claim to be a rational creature." - Swift
true
I’ll agree with that comment, and when cards are held in Brazil, the Brazilian fans blow the roof off the place! We all want to see our countrymen succeed, its part of being proud of where ur from. I don’t think its biased, I just think that the UFC does the majority of its business in the states…what do these guys expect? If Nog doesn’t like it then go fight in Jungle Fight promotion in front of his countrymen n women. He just sounds idiotic by saying these things.
by BigPerm82 on Feb 22, 2012 3:35 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Nog is crazy
I am just here to test out mobile commenting lol
I trained under Jim Cozad.
by Dr.Mundo on Feb 22, 2012 10:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Does every fucking quote from him have to deal with Brazilians against the world or is that just the stuff that gets quoted twice a week? I love you Nog, but c’mon man. It’s tiring.
INEPT coming for the season 2 BECW title.
"Believe me I have my own demon in my had. People has no idea how dark I am in my head sometime. Nick Diaz deserves to be beat down."- Georges St Pierre
Follow me on Twitter if you like MMA, baseball, and moderately funny people: @TimBernier31
while I don't agree with Nog's statement at all
I just wanted to say that he isn’t the only one who thinks like this. There are many American fighters/coaches/fans/writers who think that fights outside America are heavily favored towards the home fighters. Fights that happened in Japan or Brazil for instance, even in the UFC though to a lesser extent, are somehow favored towards the home town fighters. While I believe people who thinks like this are in the minority overall, I just wanted to point out that Nog isn’t alone in this way of thinking, he’s just saying it from the non-American point of view.
I call you, I talk to me - Anderson Silva
I’m going to go ahead and guess that this happens around the world, but it pretty obvious to me that the judges that judge UFC fights aren’t being biased. I think it happens somewhere, but Nog was specifically talking about the UFC there. And I really vehemently disagree with a bias in UFC fights towards Americans. I just don’t get where he is coming from here and it irks me because he’s blaming fighter’s losing on judging bias. Throwing around racial/xenophobic bias accusations is dangerous and shouldn’t be treated lightly. That’s not fair at all for the people who are being accused when there isn’t any evidence against them. Someone give me a list of these controversial decisions against Brazilians.
Yeah, I bet it happens on the regional scene in the US. And probably the UK, Japan, Brazil and anywhere really. But leave the UFC/Strikeforce/Bellator out of this until I see some evidence.
/rant
INEPT coming for the season 2 BECW title.
"Believe me I have my own demon in my had. People has no idea how dark I am in my head sometime. Nick Diaz deserves to be beat down."- Georges St Pierre
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I’m not talking about promotions in general and I’m not saying there is a bias in the UFC, I’m talking about the ‘conspiracy theory’ that some people think fighting overseas will have a bias if the fight happens to go to a decision. And being a judge from a US commission doesn’t negate a bias, humans are humans. but I don’t go around saying fights outside the UFC have that problem, I am however saying that there are people who thinks like that and Nog isn’t alone. given your answer I guess you could fall under that category as well.
by the way, he didn’t throw any racial or xenophobic bias accusations, you do realize that race has nothing to do with nationality, right? and xenophobic means you hate other nationalities, right? no where in that statement did he make any such statement.
I call you, I talk to me - Anderson Silva
If a judge was being xenophobic, he would give Americans a bias. If you claim a judge is being biased against Brazilians, that’s implying a bias due to being xenophobic. If xenophobe isn’t the correct word then he is definitely implying bigotry.
INEPT coming for the season 2 BECW title.
"Believe me I have my own demon in my had. People has no idea how dark I am in my head sometime. Nick Diaz deserves to be beat down."- Georges St Pierre
Follow me on Twitter if you like MMA, baseball, and moderately funny people: @TimBernier31
my bad
I actually thought you were saying he was being xenophobic, I read that kind of quick :p
my only point is that he’s not alone in this line of thinking though.
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by menckenstein on Feb 22, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
Oh no I'm sorry if it came out that way.
Not what I meant.
INEPT coming for the season 2 BECW title.
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by Tim Bernier on Feb 22, 2012 3:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This is considered a real problem in Thailand with Muay Thai, as well.
The best example I can come up with is the 2010 Muay Thai King’s Cup; the final was Yodsanklai vs. Cosmo Alexandre. Most fans I know scored the fight for Cosmo, who landed a much higher volume of strikes. Now, you could chalk that up to regional bias, but another factor in that fight is the Muay Thai scoring mentality; backward motion is seen as cowardly by Nak Muays, and Cosmo WAS circling around constantly. In MT, they have this attitude that you should hold your ground, keep plowing forward, and instead of circling away from danger, you wade right into it, block the best they have and give it right back to the opponent.
I think the scoring trends are the real issue here. In North America, MMA judges tend to value takedowns and top control very highly, even if the man on top doesn’t land any strikes or cinch any submission holds. This can end up favoring strong wrestlers, which the U.S. of A has in abundance. Whereas most Brazilian fighters follow the mold of BJJ submission artist + Muay Thai knockout hunter.
It’s getting better, though. The judging in America is starting to favor the fighter that does more damage more now, and listless takedowns aren’t as heavily weighed as they used to be. Judges are starting to hand out more 10-8’s, and hopefully in time they will open up the 10-10 and 10-7 scores as well. The fighters are also adapting. American wrestlers are working to really improve their striking and submission defense past the point of just being able to survive and flex their takedown game; Brazilian sub & KO machines are improving their wrestling so that they can better dictate the action of the fight.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 22, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
agreed
I don’t think there are bias in the judging scene in the US at all, but I also don’t think there are bias in other countries either (as far as MMA is concern, not sure about Muay Thai since I don’t follow it). but robberies do happen though, but there is a small percentage of people (professionals included, and I’m not saying this is your case) that will say that the judges suck when it happens in the US, but if it happens elsewhere than they were obviously being biased towards the home guy, Big Nog is actually doing the same thing but instead from the other side.
but I do think there are other factors different cultures look at when scoring a fight, such as Japan for example, they would give more points for a guy going for submissions instead of being on top, and would allow the fight to proceed on the ground forever if the people are being active in going for submissions but would stand up the fight fairly quickly if someone is just laying on top of the other, this made a good chunk of people in the US think Pride was being biased when they were just using a different criteria of scoring/reffing a fight. just different cultures using different criteria.
I call you, I talk to me - Anderson Silva
Exactly my man.
PRIDE placed a very high premium on effort to finish the fight, which I think is a step in the right direction, although I don’t believe in rewarding the simple EFFORT to finish a fight. IMO, the only thing that you should be rewarding is actual offense… and by actual offense, I mean concrete HARM. Strikes landed, actively damaging near- submissions, and crushing ground positions- those are all really harmful actions.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 22, 2012 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
Well said Elliot.
How many times have we seen a fighter getting countered and just plain beat up on the feet only to score with a last minute take down and steal the round? Wrestling is definitely favored a little too much but like you said, They are getting better at scoring and the day 10-10 and 10-7 rounds are embraced will be a great day indeed.
BJ Penn and Shogun Rua fan for life.
The Koscheck/ Pierce decision is the most recent example.
Mike was really busting Kos up with his hands in the 1’st and 2’nd round, but I think Josh’s takedowns were what “stole the round”.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 22, 2012 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
I have to rewatch it
But I think that Koscheck wouldn’t have been credited with a takedown if it was an actual wrestling match. I don’t think Pierce’s ass ever hit the floor.
by discoandherpes on Feb 22, 2012 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
I remember some regional card on HDNET that had imported 3 fighters from Japan. Somehow or another, the Japanese guys kept getting really bad calls; getting stood up out of mount, point fouls with no warning while the American gets favorable calls… I don’t think the ref was trying to fix the fight, it just seemed to work out that way.
Point being, there’s a reason people always think that.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
IT IS YOU WHO CONSPIRES AGAINST ME!!!
by Randomguy81 on Feb 22, 2012 1:09 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Also, last I checked, 3 is not greater than 3
Brazilian champions in the UFC:
Aldo – 145LBS
A. Silva – 185LBS
Dos Santos – 265LBS
American Champions
Cruz – 135LBS
Edgar – 155LBS
Jones – 205LBS
Lets also not forget that 3 of the 4 fighters in the upcoming 125LBS tournament are Americans. Apparently math is not fundamental in the Nogueira Gym
I think by Americans
he means white people. Which means America has 2 champions:
Edgar-155
GSP-170
Welcome to America Georges! USA! USA!
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by Avap on Feb 22, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
Cruz is pretty damn white
I know he’s Mexican America, but c’mon… he’s a white guy.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 22, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
There are Mexican white guys.
It’s nothing new.
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by Unabomberman on Feb 22, 2012 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
For sure
I’m just saying that under the criteria that Americans = white people, I would definitely say that Cruz fits that bill. Aesthetically, personality, and stylistically- Dominick Cruz is a white dude.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 22, 2012 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That is a little racist
Not implying you are, but as someone who is Puerto Rican (read: American that rolls their r’s), if I don’t act like a typical Puerto Rican, am I automatically white because aesthetically and stylistically I look and act white?
And on that same note I use a lot of slang and sometimes act with qualities that would be associated with Black People when I am in a very casual mood. At the same time, no one would say I’m black because I’m “acting black”.
No one race acts like a specific way. Are you implying that Cruz isn’t Hispanic because he is a well spoken, intelligent guy?
by discoandherpes on Feb 22, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
It wasn't meant to be that serious.
But no, that’s not what I was implying. I’m just saying- look at the guy. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, acts like a duck… it’s probably a duck.
This guy is so white, he makes Bryant Gumbel look like Malcolm X.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 23, 2012 1:02 AM EST up reply actions
Didn't mean to come at you that way
It’s just that this is probably the only thing I get offended by.
by discoandherpes on Feb 23, 2012 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
Don't know about that... he's not blond or light skinned
I guess you are referring more to his style than his coloring
Definitely looks like a white guy to me.
One of my best buds is half- mexican, but he considers himself white.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 23, 2012 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
cruz is what we call The Real OC White
by ShogunDaChamp on Feb 22, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
MEXICAN AMERICAAAAAAAAAAAAN
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It must be a delightful city and possess all the attractions of the next world" - Oscar Wylde
by SanFranpsycho on Feb 22, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
They take Spaaaaniiiissshhh at the community college and get a BBBBBBBBBBB
"All noble things are as difficult as they are rare."
- Baruch Spinoza
The most classless fan in college football since 1984.
by Avap on Feb 22, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If you take it as a percentage of champions, Brazil has more compared to the size of their “roster”.
INEPT coming for the season 2 BECW title.
"Believe me I have my own demon in my had. People has no idea how dark I am in my head sometime. Nick Diaz deserves to be beat down."- Georges St Pierre
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Yeah, that's it!
I’m sure that’s exactly his line of reasoning. Also, last I checked, there was a damn healthy mix of Brazilians to Americans in most of the weight classes.
There are only two groups in the UFC
Brazilians, and everyone else.
Not only is GSP now a resident of the USA, but so is Overeem, Gustaffson, and Struve. ROLL OUT THE RED CARPET!
"All noble things are as difficult as they are rare."
- Baruch Spinoza
The most classless fan in college football since 1984.
he’s pretty close to the numbers though. Brazil currently has 48 fighters, the US has 184, not that healthy mix of Brazilians to Americans if you ask me. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having most of your roster being from the country where you sell the most PPVs.
I call you, I talk to me - Anderson Silva
When you consider who most of those fighters are
It’s really not unbalanced. For curtain jerkers does it make more sense to fly in a Brazilian and his team or just have a few American guys make the trip? It’s simple economics.
yes
184 is very close to 48. I’m not talking about economics here nor am I saying there’s something wrong in having more Americans than any other nationality, I have already conceded to the fact that the UFC has to have more Americans than anybody else, putting that aside, however, you can’t say 48 is close to 184, I don’t know how you rationalize that, at all…
I call you, I talk to me - Anderson Silva
It's called "filler"
How many of those 184 are considered “contenders”? Most of those guys are there to fill up card space, they aren’t relevant fighters. Would you expect a Brazilian promotion to fly in Americans to fill up all of their undercard fights? Do you see this happening a lot in Japan? No, you give the less meaningful fights to local guys while saving the slots that people truly care about for the cream of the crop!
by Randomguy81 on Feb 22, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
no it ain't
the truth of the matter is that the TOP 10 rankings are also dominated by Americans, the reason for that is that you have the majority of your roster being Americans. If you have more people from a certain country than any other, you’ll more than likely have more successful fighters from that country as well. again, there’s really nothing wrong with that because who’d watch the UFC in the US if most of their roster was made up of foreign fighters? You fail to realize that I’m not talking about politics here, nor am I talking about economics, again and hopefully for the last time, I have already conceded to the fact that the UFC has to have more Americans than anybody else, that doesn’t mean you can say 48 is in the same ball park as 184. take Canada for example, they have 19 fighters overall, then I’m just going to turn around and say; ‘well, that’s in the same ball park as the 48 Brazilians on the roster’, that’s just dumb brother, sorry…
I call you, I talk to me - Anderson Silva
So you're going to hate on the Americans for having more great fighters?
Completely flawed logic there. The reason that there are more Americans in the Top 10 rankings isn’t due to the UFC or America as a whole having a prejudice, it’s because there just happen to be better training camps in American training better American fighters. If there were more elite camps in Brazil then there would be a higher percentage of Brazilians in the Top 10 of each division. How many high level Brazilian fight camps are there really outside of Nova Uniao? It comes down to level of training and level of athletes. Nogueira wants to claim there is some sort of inherent bias, clearly that isn’t the case. The cream rises to the top, be they American, Brazilian, Canadian, Dutch etc.
Is this guy serious?
You’re not even reading Orcus’ posts now.
by Body Triangle on Feb 22, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
To be fair
math hurts my brain too.
"All noble things are as difficult as they are rare."
- Baruch Spinoza
The most classless fan in college football since 1984.
I guess if you’re not white then you’re not american? I’m brown skinned was born here and have lived here all my life. Guess I’ll go back to Mexico now.
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by TheDreadedMarco on Feb 22, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
Fighter bashing.
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by Unabomberman on Feb 22, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
Fo sho.
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by Zachary Kater on Feb 22, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
“They look at us with (malicious) eyes, let’s say it like that. If you’re going to fight an American in the US you have to win the fight with emphasis because otherwise… You can’t win it by a thin margin.”
It must’ve been those evil biased American judges who robbed Nogueira of those thin-margin victories against Mir and Velasquez.
Those
Goddamn
Judges
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Definition: a traditional doll crafted from the stomach hair of obese, unkempt, typically diabetic men who suck at fighting. This type of doll is commonly crafted in the deep South and seems to be exclusively purchased by fans of the NBA franchise the LA Lakers, who believe the dolls give them the power to be as cool as Celtics fans.
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by menckenstein on Feb 22, 2012 1:13 PM EST reply actions 21 recs
lmao
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I don't see a conspiracy...
just that U.S. judges heavily favor wrestling and fighters from Brazil lack in that area in the most part. The U.S. judges would rarely, if ever, give a round to a fighter who was on his back but being active with sub-attempts while a wrestler does very little from top.
Hopefully that changes as the sport evolves, but for right now, IMO that’s where the perceived bias is coming from.
by ChicagoMMAFan on Feb 22, 2012 1:13 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
If he had phrased it like this
I would have been a happy camper. But instead I am a sad panda.
"All noble things are as difficult as they are rare."
- Baruch Spinoza
The most classless fan in college football since 1984.
Stupidity has no national affiliation.
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by pud333 on Feb 22, 2012 1:15 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
wonder if he was there to watch
brilz get robbed
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Yeah, you can’t call a close fight a robbery. That word has lost all meaning lately in MMA.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
I mean, I gave Nog the fight on rounds 2 and 3
He won the 3rd when he got the crucifix position.
And watching Brilz shit his pants the last two fights, it’s pretty obvious this fight was a total fluke.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
Giving Nog round 2 in the fight is epic fail
You can give him round 1 (which was razor close)but round 2 was Brilz all day
Oops. Yeah I meant round 1.
Round 2 was the guillotine by Brilz I think.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
Fair enough
I gave Brilz round one for actually working the top game. He got busted up on the fight a bit but his dominance in position and ability to transition and land some GnP gave him the round in my eyes. Not a “robbery” but I watched it 3 times and scored it 29-28 Brilz each time.
Yup, not a robbery by any means.
Watched it a few times and had it 29-28 Nog giving him the first and the third each time. The first is a close round and I can see it going to Brilz.
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by Sweet Scientist on Feb 22, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I think that fight was a matter of Nog not being prepared for Brilz.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
Yeah training for Forrest is very different than a grinder like Brilz
Now he knows the gameplan, which is to hit him in the face.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
isn’t it a consensus that Rampage won the 1st two rounds and got owned in the 3rd, making that fight a non-controversial 29-28 decision for Rampage ? I don’t recall anyone bitching except Ed Soares.
Definitely not consensus.
I scored it for Machida. It was close though.
"No person can disobey reason, without giving up his claim to be a rational creature." - Swift
His next conspiracy? MMA judges are gay.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Feb 22, 2012 1:18 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
So long as they don't try to grapple with him
he has no problem.
"All noble things are as difficult as they are rare."
- Baruch Spinoza
The most classless fan in college football since 1984.
by Avap on Feb 22, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Haha nice
My daddy didn't come to my play in 2nd grade so now I do MMA.
by RandyCouture'sDivorceLawyer on Feb 22, 2012 1:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Or any opponent sure to beat him
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Definition: a traditional doll crafted from the stomach hair of obese, unkempt, typically diabetic men who suck at fighting. This type of doll is commonly crafted in the deep South and seems to be exclusively purchased by fans of the NBA franchise the LA Lakers, who believe the dolls give them the power to be as cool as Celtics fans.
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by menckenstein on Feb 22, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Man, I usually like nogueira but he honestly sounds like an idiot here.
IDK why but brazilians seem to be so damn nationlistic (if thats even a word?). Everythings about brazil. Brazil this brazil that. Some examples just off the top of my head…
Jose aldo saying him was chad mendes was brazil vs usa
Anderson saying he wishes there was a brazilian fighter who could beat jon jones
Maia talking about how he would almost always root for a brazilian but wouldn’t for silva/sonnen because he hates silva so much
I sure theres many more. There must be something about brazilian culture that makes these guys feel like its always brazil vs the world.
by C.A.M. on Feb 22, 2012 1:23 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I'm offensive and I find this brazilian
GSP was the UFC Welterweight champion, until he took an arrow in the knee.
by crucified on Feb 22, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
In all fairness Mendes did come over and shit on his soccer team
Thats shit means war in Brazil.
BJ Penn and Shogun Rua fan for life.
Shut up Nogueira. I guess since you think judges are bias you should be glad you didn’t go to decision with Mir … twice… woops.
-AboveThisFire
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But seriously
I love Nog, but he needs to keep his mouth shut. When he’s not talking, he’s a poet.
GSP was the UFC Welterweight champion, until he took an arrow in the knee.
by crucified on Feb 22, 2012 1:25 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Nog only made this comment
as the result of an extended and painstaking statistical analysis, followed by grueling interviews of judges and referees in a candid environment. His social science acumen is second to none. Nog is a true mathematician, a philosopher, and a gentleman.
"All noble things are as difficult as they are rare."
- Baruch Spinoza
The most classless fan in college football since 1984.
If he wants to go conspiracy theory
Then I can continue to claim Blackhouse fighters routinely have an injury excuse they pull out the week before any fight and use it when they lose, or then claim injury pre-fight to boast a win.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
well if you're going to be technical
he uses the word American in the context of fighting in the US.
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Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaa........................
no
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by Cory Braiterman on Feb 22, 2012 1:26 PM EST reply actions
Dammit, Minotauro. Don’t say silly things.
Hmmm. Gotta find something to improve my mood. I know!
Ah. So much better.
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by MicahtheCynic on Feb 22, 2012 1:28 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
That's the type of talk I want to hear from Big Nog
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by menckenstein on Feb 22, 2012 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
The sad part was
when the judges awarded Schaub the victory.
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by Avap on Feb 22, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 8 recs
nog wanted to keep the fight standing but schaub said "nope" and went to the ground....
OCTAGON CONTROL
by C.A.M. on Feb 22, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
Brendan' chin is laced with all sorts of Arlovski.
Poor guy. He has decent striking, but he can’t take a hard punch.
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by Unabomberman on Feb 22, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, if you watch Nelson vs. Schaub again
Nelson dominated that entire fight.
I find it hard to see him as a top contender.
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well schaub was still a neophyte at that time and ben was a former mma champion
plus schaub didn’t look completly helpless. He was able to get back up the his feet after roy took him down which is something no one else on the show managed.
God that knockout was glorious
I lost my shit.
If only he had of let Mir back to his feet…..
BJ Penn and Shogun Rua fan for life.
Or kept punching, instead of going for the sub.
It’s simple math… Mir has been finished by submission zero times, and has been finished by ground strikes in all 5 of his losses.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 22, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
SCIENCE!!!
Ahoy-hoy.
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by Sugel Mendoza on Feb 22, 2012 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
At the same time it worked for Mir against Kongo
It’s worked for Faber a ton of times, it even worked for Tito against Bader.
I’m just saying that jumping for a guillotine isn’t a bad move in that position most of the time.
by discoandherpes on Feb 22, 2012 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
You have to consider who you're fighting though, and what their instincts are.
Kongo & Bader aren’t exactly submission wiz kids.
Nog went for the submission out of pride. He wanted to be the first guy to submit Frank Mir, instead of just continuing with the ground strikes (which historically has been the way to beat Mir).
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 23, 2012 1:06 AM EST up reply actions
True
But I doubt that was going through Nog’s head in a split second. Going for that choke was probably more instinctual for him than continuing to punch.
by discoandherpes on Feb 23, 2012 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
Perhaps.
I think pride was definitely a factor there, although I think his killer instinct and pride in his submission skills are something that go hand in hand.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 23, 2012 5:21 AM EST up reply actions
im an american and i love brazilian WOMEN!!!
by ShogunDaChamp on Feb 22, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
Mir vs big Nog 3 in Brazil
Pls
by Armleglegarm Head on Feb 22, 2012 1:32 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Pretty sure you don't get a threematch if you get stopped twice
That’s like Tito calling out Chuck again. Just makes you roll your eyes.
Menckenstein:
(noun)
Definition: a traditional doll crafted from the stomach hair of obese, unkempt, typically diabetic men who suck at fighting. This type of doll is commonly crafted in the deep South and seems to be exclusively purchased by fans of the NBA franchise the LA Lakers, who believe the dolls give them the power to be as cool as Celtics fans.
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by menckenstein on Feb 22, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Well, Lidell-Ortiz 3 was booked and Wanderlei-Rampage 3 happened.
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by Sweet Scientist on Feb 22, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah there've been plenty of them and I didn't want to see any of them
Especially Wand/Page 3
Saw that KO coming a billion miles away. :(
Menckenstein:
(noun)
Definition: a traditional doll crafted from the stomach hair of obese, unkempt, typically diabetic men who suck at fighting. This type of doll is commonly crafted in the deep South and seems to be exclusively purchased by fans of the NBA franchise the LA Lakers, who believe the dolls give them the power to be as cool as Celtics fans.
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by menckenstein on Feb 22, 2012 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Don't really want them either.
Was just pointing out that it happened before. I’m not really for it although I’d like Mir-Nog 3, but that’s just because I’m a huge Nog fan.
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by Sweet Scientist on Feb 22, 2012 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
I'd love for him to get a win over Mir but then we'd be saddled with a fourth fight
Just let it go, so the wound can heal.
Menckenstein:
(noun)
Definition: a traditional doll crafted from the stomach hair of obese, unkempt, typically diabetic men who suck at fighting. This type of doll is commonly crafted in the deep South and seems to be exclusively purchased by fans of the NBA franchise the LA Lakers, who believe the dolls give them the power to be as cool as Celtics fans.
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by menckenstein on Feb 22, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure I want to live in a world where Frank Mir is both the first man to KO Nog and the first man to submit him.
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by Sweet Scientist on Feb 22, 2012 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
I’m ok with it, so long as Mir also wins a controversial ud over nog in brazil hot on the heels of this ridiculous conspiracy conjecture
by Armleglegarm Head on Feb 22, 2012 2:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don't think Nog's heart could take that kind of pain
He’d keel over and be on his way to the big bus route in the sky.
Menckenstein:
(noun)
Definition: a traditional doll crafted from the stomach hair of obese, unkempt, typically diabetic men who suck at fighting. This type of doll is commonly crafted in the deep South and seems to be exclusively purchased by fans of the NBA franchise the LA Lakers, who believe the dolls give them the power to be as cool as Celtics fans.
Daniel James Miller Foundation - Please donate, every penny helps.
by menckenstein on Feb 22, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
and then feed said bus a carrot.
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by TheDreadedMarco on Feb 22, 2012 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
u didnt see it coming a million miles away, rampage was a huge unknown at the time, he just went through his psychotic episode and no one knew if he was gonna show up prepared, stop talkin like ur miss cleo
by ShogunDaChamp on Feb 22, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Rampage was hardly unknown,
he was the champion a little over 5 months before. Just want to throw that out.
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by Sugel Mendoza on Feb 22, 2012 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
Tito never had Chuck in any danger
Nog had Mir out on his feet till he made the mistake of pulling guard for the submission, I’d love another chance to see Nog put Mir face first on the mat like he almost did.
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No, Big Nog
I even checked on wikipedia to make sure.
Jameel Massouh, George Roop and Nam Phan are all Americans. And Chan Sung Jung is South Korean. Your theory is thus disproved, the end.
by Lauren J Darkbloom on Feb 22, 2012 1:42 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
If I had to find a way to re-arrange his words
I would say judges favor takedowns (regardless of failed attempts) and the fighter on top. Wrestling has been and will always be the American fighters bread and butter. So if you look at it that way he is kinda right but only because Americans have strong wrestling.
He’s done nothing but spout bullshit lately. He said he wouldn’t grapple with gays. He blamed Herb Dean for his loss to Mir because Herb told him to “watch the back of the head” when he clearly was hitting Mir in the back of the head. And now this. He either needs to learn to articulate his points better, or just shut the hell up.
If anyone has a right to call bias in judging, it's the Asian brothers.
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Nog has spent over a decade
professional getting punched in the head.
I don’t expect him to have wonderfully reasoned/balanced thoughts.
The judging criteria itself favors wrestling more than BJJ.
Since there are more wrestlers in America than in Brazil a lot of decisions favored those of wrestling backgrounds. Nog has equated decisions which disfavor bjj to xenophobia against Brazilians. It has nothing to do with Nationalism or wanting Brazilians to lose. Its the judging criteria itself. I believe most American mma fans want to see the best fighters compete regardless or race, ethnicity or nationality. I really cant evaluate what other cultures desire.
Im sure he’s talking more about regional promotions then in the UFC.
And I’m sure he’s right. We don’t all get to see lots of small time promotions, where some brazilian is matched up with a local kid, who might get the decision nod, whether he earned it or not.
But I’m sure Nog sees it alot with the fighters he trains and corners…
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by Fedorable on Feb 22, 2012 2:27 PM EST via Android app reply actions
Wrong.
While in any society, there is likely to be a bias towards another, I don’t think there is a big prejudice here. More so, i feel like Americans have a great romanticism regarding Brazil and its people. Of course i also believe anywhere a sporting event takes place, there is a certain amount of “home cookin’”, regarding reffing and judging.
Now Canada, well that’s a different story…
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Was he speaking about a particular fight?
All the fights that I can recall in the recent past that were bad/questionable didn’t involve Brazilians other than the already mentioned Machida fight.
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Nog is the man but he’s wrong about this.
by Ghost Face Killer on Feb 22, 2012 3:10 PM EST reply actions
bro.
out of how many countries in the world, and there are 50 Brazilians in the UFC?
that’s not bad at all percentage wise. how many fighters from Mexico, Philippines, and other countries have 50 fighters in the UFC?
and as far as judging, no different than British fighters need to learn to wrestle, so do Brazilians. in the cage especially, it’s important. sorry it’s not Pride with guys like Wand crushing cans every card and fighting pro-wrestlers wearing masks to pad their record of stoppages.
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by theworldsoldestsport on Feb 22, 2012 3:16 PM EST reply actions
Nogueria's taken one too many
shots to the head. His whole argument is contradictory. Last time I checked you have to win a lot of fights to be the champion. And I’m pretty sure Brazil is the birthplace of MMA not America. How do American’s have an advantage based on doing the sport longer?
Japan is the birthplace of martial arts and MMA, Brazil is the birthplace of BJJ....
Americans have the advantage of advanced training facilities and staff and wrestling programs are available from an early age in the US.
Keep your game tight son.
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debatable
Vale Tudo predates Japanese MMA
To have a Cannae you must have a Varo
-George Patton
"The complete man must work, study and wrestle."
-Aristotle
Very debatable.
China could have more of a case as birthplace of martial arts even though there’s always been some form of martial art anywhere in the world and I don’t think you can consider martial arts to really have a birth place. Also as T.P. said Vale Tudo predates Japanese MMA.
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by Sweet Scientist on Feb 22, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Some form of combat system has existed since the birth of humanity
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 22, 2012 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
That's what I was saying. The only way you can consider China as the "Birthplace of martial arts" is by having a pretty narrow definition of martial arts.
You would have to consider some kind of philosophy component necessary to get the martial art “label” and consider all other forms combat or self defense systems and combat sports. Which is bullshit.
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by Sweet Scientist on Feb 22, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
Good man.
I like your style, SS. Agreed on all counts.
There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 22, 2012 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
I understand where Nog is coming from
the emphasis on top position favors wrestlers, pure and simple. But that is an issue with MMA judging on the whole, not just American judging.
To have a Cannae you must have a Varo
-George Patton
"The complete man must work, study and wrestle."
-Aristotle
If we look at it from the very beggining, in the Jiu-Jitsu vs Wrestling rivalry, I think it’s obvious wrestling has been heavily favoured because of the so called dominance from the top position. Nationality issues aside, it’s as easy to see as Miguel Torres vs Mighty Mouse, both americans, where one guys tries to play bottom position but the judges can’t see sh*t. Going back to the roots of the UFC, most brazilians were from BJJ schools and most americans were from wrestling, so I think the judges got it wrong based on techniques, not nationality. But Lil Nog might not be that wrong, after all, since Tito Ortiz vs Vitor Belfort was an easy fight to score (little to none ground exchanges, with takedowns easy to point) and they still missed to call the correct winner (IMO, Belfort). Eventually this will happen everywhere, Ishii got robbed in Brazil against Paulo Filho, to the point the judges were able to get the brazilian crowd booing at them, so, instead of making rushed judgements, let’s all put 5 minutes trying to get some insight on his words… he came from Japan, where wrestling wasn’t so favoured by judges and where LNP wasn’t scored, it was actually called as foul…
EDIT: TP Grant – you got there first while I was writing. It’s more of a thing of incompetent judges + the style that gets favoured is the one where the home boys are stronger. That creates some room for conspiracies, although I don’t think they exhist in 2012, or at least I hope they don’t exhist…
as an American, this is news to me that we have a rivalry going on with brazil within mma.
never even thought about it.
why is this even a discussion. nog, cmon.
if they let colquitt walk im going to kick someone
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I'll just copy and paste my comment (for the most part) from Orcus' fanpost since I'm lazy and sick
One, there are three Brazilian champions and three American champions.
Two, If Americans have a rivalry with Brazilians, I don’t think we noticed. The whole world cheered when Nog beat Schaubs face in, not just Brazil.
Third, your own brother got a close decision against Brillz, and there are plenty of American judges that have given close fights to Brazilian fighters (Taveres, Barboza, ect.) To say that there is a bias against Brazilians is silly.
Fourth point, Brazil supports the grown of young MMA fighters far more than America. In Brazil you hear about poor men becoming fighters and getting trained in boxing and jiu jitsu. In America, if you can’t afford training, good luck trying to get someone to take a chance on you and letting you train for free.
And lastly, Brazilians boo American fighters are just as bad as Americans boo the Brazilians. You might hear a USA chant every now and then, but that’s about it.
by discoandherpes on Feb 22, 2012 11:21 PM EST reply actions
Moral of the story, pain pills and acai are the new FourLoko.
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by NickRingp4pGOAT on Feb 23, 2012 1:07 PM EST reply actions
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