Tate vs Rousey Roundtable Reaction: Don't Patronize Us
by jim-ma on Feb 19, 2012 7:37 AM EST
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The Strikeforce female bantamweight champion, Miesha Tate and the contender for that title, Ronda Rousey sat down with press yesterday to discuss their March 3rd fight. Both women are clearly relishing the limelight and it is wonderful to see women's mixed martial arts firmly in the spotlight. As a fan of women's MMA though, the thing that struck me most was the patronizing attitude both fighters seemed to have towards fans. Tate and Rousey feel that for men to watch women fight, the fighters have to be beautiful enough to catch their eyes. This attitude is also reflected in Stikeforce's marketing of the fight.
On the one hand, it is incredibly heartening to see such a professional production in connection to women's fighting but it is also worrying that we are being asked to watch two beautiful women rather than two brilliant fighters. Female fighters and fans must be fed up with the patronizing idea that these girls can fight, even though they are beautiful women. But watching the video below, it is clear that male fans are being treated in an equally shallow way.
Ronda Rousey and Miesha Tate are beautiful women with great presence which is evident both in the Strikeforce promo video and the media event video. They are also just trying to make the most out of an opportunity to make good money out of a sport which most women struggle to pay the bills with. Tate makes the point that clearly most MMA fans are men and that to garner their interest in women's MMA they first need to have their heads turned by pretty female fighters.
I believe it is a mistake to promote this massive fight based on the looks of the athletes rather than their skills as fighters but what irks me most in this is the presumption that men could only be interested in women fighting if they are beautiful. It is unfair and short sighted to cast male MMA fans as meat-headed fools desperate to see either blood or boobs. Regardless of gender, I feel like MMA fans are better than that. MMA fans are fans of fighting and Rousey and Tate are good fighters. That is already very marketable.
I would like to see a new Strikeforce promotional video which features Miesha Tate choking out Marloes Coenen or Ronda Rousey tapping out Julia Budd. Fans of fighting, men or women, will tune in to watch good fighters fight, regardless of how they look.
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Blood or Boobs
Works for me
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Didn't even realise the promo showed little fighting
I just know i was psyched for the fight
I believe in Chael Sonnen.
that 'press conference'
is pretty embarassing
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by Our Bovine Public on Feb 19, 2012 11:25 AM EST reply actions
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by menckenstein on Feb 20, 2012 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
It is unfair to over-generalize male MMA fans, but we should be realistic in facing some obvious facts. Womens MMA is still very new, and considering that all of Rousey’s fights have been under the Strikeforce Challengers banner, we can assume that not many people knows who she is. It’s also undeniable that both are attractive women, so why not use it? It’s kind of a bait and switch thing. You market that they are attractive to get male MMA fans to watch, but the switch is that the women get to showcase their skills. Hopefully, some of these viewers will become fans once the fight is over, and not just for their looks.
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Like I said, I understand.
It is very tempting to make the money by marketing the fight like this. But I think with sensible marketing based on Rousey’s outlandish personality and their great skills people will watch anyway. As for people not knowing who Rousey is, that’s because she is a newcomer to MMA and needs more time before she is deserving of a title fight. I know why they are marketing the fight like this, but it isn’t for the good of WMMA in the long term. I wrote more about this here
I don’t feel it’s a problem for WMMA in the long term, to be honest. If they keep marketing like this, then maybe I can see the argument, but for this fight, I just feel that it is necessary for a couple reasons. Since WMMA is still very new, and there are MMA fans that just totally reject WMMA, I feel that marketing their looks to initially get viewers is the way to go. Moving forward though, I would like to see more of your approach.
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by chrisbboy82 on Feb 19, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
Danica Patrick (NASCAR):
Daniela Hantuchova (Tennis):
Luciana Aymar (field hockey):
Yeah, right. MMA is not alone in using the looks of female competitors to garner promotional interest. We’re still in an era where the notion of gauging females based on their looks instead of something else is still very much a social issue—and in MMA especially so b/c the largest part of the viewing audience is predominantly male.
I mean, how much does anyone think a WNBA player makes compared to an NBA player, and why? People don’t watch female’s basketball enough to warrant advertisers to buy air time on the broadcast feeds, or to sponsor players, etc., and it’s fucked up b/c half the world’s population is female, so why aren’t they watching?
In our particular case, the fans of fighting, men or women you speak of, are almost nonexistent—even inside this MMA bubble of ours you will find people that won’t give WMMA the light of day (imagine how it is outside). Sad but true.
So, sexy ad campaign it is for the time being.
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by Unabomberman on Feb 19, 2012 1:16 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Looks matter when it comes to professional athletes
Whether it’s Rousey, Tate, or GSP.
by discoandherpes on Feb 19, 2012 1:21 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Jake Shields is a handsome man.
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by Sugel Mendoza on Feb 20, 2012 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
But Frank Shamrock is a family man.
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by Zachary Kater on Feb 20, 2012 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
This...
Anna Kournikova (tennis) – never won anything much, but probably one of the highest paid during her career. Male: Jan Michael Gambill – mid tier player who did plenty of modelling. Agassi – huge selling point on looks in the early days. Verdasco. Federer. Nadal.
Back to female, the Williams sisters with their fashion and hair.
And in soccer, Beckham, Cristiano Ronaldo, and several other good looking guys milk their looks in marketing to the maximum. Bigger sponsorship opportunities for sure. And more interest especially among female fans, in following these guys and their teams.
Nothing wrong with selling on looks. Brock and Overeem have their own brand of looks, based on size and physique – the UFC marketing this element heavily (i.e. stating the height and weight – both of which are impressive to male and female fans for perhaps differing reasons).
I really wish
Sports fans in general and MMA fans in particular were evolved enough to judge female athletes by something other than their looks, but unfortunately that’s the exception rather than the rule.
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It is a societal issue, at large.
The only thing one can do is plough trough until it is phased away, which will only happen in a long, long time.
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by Unabomberman on Feb 19, 2012 3:06 PM EST up reply actions
You act like this is a gender specific issue
Most athletes are judged by their looks, male or female.
by discoandherpes on Feb 19, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
Name one male fighter who had an ad
That seemed to say; even though he is a sexy guy he can fight too.
GSP doesn’t have a female fan base because of his pure athletic accomplishments. People weren’t fascinated by Lesnar just because he did pro wrestling. All these guys benefitted from their image.
Tom Brady is a huge star because of his Superbowl rings, but to act like his good looks and the fact he’s banging a super model has nothing to do with it is silly. The same can be said about Tim Tebow.
Everyone in life is judged on their looks, and it is no different from athletes.
by discoandherpes on Feb 19, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That may be true
but when GSP fights he is marketed as a fighter not a pin-up
I respectfully disagree. The standards of sexy naturally differ from male to female. Fighting in spandex shorts with a chiseled physique fits in the scope of what many women did sexy.
Also, how many fighters at the highest level are completely grungy or bad looking? Most males at the top of the division are what can be described as attractive. This is life in general, having a well kept, clean appearance tends to take you farther. When someone imagines the a marine or a soldier they tend to think of a physically fit,good looking and well put together.
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by JaeeJaee on Feb 19, 2012 8:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
*many women find
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by JaeeJaee on Feb 19, 2012 8:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It absolutely is
How often is male attractiveness the driving force behind a marketing plan? It’s incidental, if anything, and never the central theme.
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by Patrick Wyman on Feb 19, 2012 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
Unless your name is Taylor Lautner.
In which case, you’re thoroughly screwed.
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by Unabomberman on Feb 19, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
Hahaha
Fair point.
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by Patrick Wyman on Feb 20, 2012 2:48 AM EST up reply actions
whats that? You have a slight cut on your knee?
Let me rip of my t shirt and create a cast from it
Quietly leading Cecil Peoples Champs to victory and beyond.
All in the game yo, all in the game
by Our Bovine Public on Feb 20, 2012 8:14 AM EST up reply actions
if you're talking about sports only...
I agree. But this is because the majority of fans are male and care somewhat less about the looks vs the skills. But for men to be interested in WMMA, looks may be a significant driver for many to give it a shot.
Attractiveness specifically? Maybe not
But how was the Lesnar/Overeem fight marketed? On image, not fighting ability. The marketing campaign for that fight was basically “Hey these guys are huge, ripped heavyweights! Watch them beat each other up!”
Physical appearance will always matter when it comes to professional athletes, especially when discussing sponsorship.
by discoandherpes on Feb 20, 2012 4:35 AM EST up reply actions
There's a massive difference
Between selling an image and selling sex appeal. Ridiculous muscularity a la Overeem-Lesnar is not the same thing as sexuality; that’s selling a particular ideal of masculinity, not the fighters as sex objects.
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by Patrick Wyman on Feb 20, 2012 4:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sex appeal is part of your image
Just like they sell fighters on masculinity, they sell female fighters on large part on femininity.
by discoandherpes on Feb 20, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That... is super wishful thinking
This community is already more thoughtful, informed and “evolved” than the bulk of typical fans out there. And even here, a sizable proportion are uninterested in WMMA or would only be interested if there was a good looking fighter. I’ve gone to tennis tournaments and I can tell you, the majority of men appear to only care to watch the women who are good looking, or alternatively the top few players against each other in the quarterfinals or better.
I never said it was a particular problem here. Women in sports is one of the last issues where misogyny and sexism are openly flaunted, and I think it’s a bad thing; wishful thinking, absolutely. I understand the marketing of this fight, I just wish it didn’t need to go that direction.
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by Patrick Wyman on Feb 20, 2012 4:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What's the point of marketing a beautiful face if all that'll happen is it's turned into a bloody pulp?
Seriously, the promo was cringeworthy,but I doubt anyone here will agree with you, as the general opinion seems to be that female MMA’s skill level is so much lower than men’s so what’s the point in watching it? Same argument used not to watch women’s football over here for example.
Forget this striking shit, let's hug each other!
by UK MMA MAN on Feb 19, 2012 4:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It's a good point
Personally I think that WMMA fights are fun, even if the skill level isn’t up to par. I can’t really counter that argument however.
by discoandherpes on Feb 19, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
in fairness
womens football is pretty dire
Quietly leading Cecil Peoples Champs to victory and beyond.
All in the game yo, all in the game
by Our Bovine Public on Feb 19, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
Hey jim-ma,
you’re right, IMO.
This isn’t a case of athletes sexualized by magazines or the internet – this is Rousey and Tate’s own organization using them as pretty faces when it could use them as talented, exciting competitors (and talkers). Yes, Strikeforce is doing this because this works, but that doesn’t mean it’s unproblematic or that there’s nothing to say about it.
They market themselves on their sex appeal though
Tate is probably the worst out of any female fighter in this respect. Google her ass and see how many pictures you can fine.
by discoandherpes on Feb 20, 2012 4:36 AM EST up reply actions
That's true.
I just wish it weren’t, I guess.
by James Kimbell on Feb 20, 2012 8:58 AM EST up reply actions
I think you’re right, but I also think the sex appeal is part of the sell for this fight.
I think the main issue is that they’re ignoring the skills angle. Marketing their looks is fine, whatever, but do it subtly and focus on the fights. Let’s be honest, these girls look good because we’re fight fans. As far as looking good compared to supermodels or whatever, they’re not gonna stack up evenly. But if you market the fight skills angle along with looks, you get somewhere.
I'd rather be trollin'.
Female sports are just less interesting, less athletic versions of their male counterparts, it always feels like a watered down experience. They advertise based on their looks anytime they can because they know men are interested in pretty women.
WMMA is no different, but if the cross over from other more popular sports like basketball, baseball, football etc have not worked, do you think people were just waiting to watch two girls fight? They can do that by changing the channel to Jerry Springer and they will probably have even more emotional interest invested in the random two guests.
No one will take them seriously as an athlete unless they are going to be represented as an athlete and WMMA will just be a joke until they realize this.
It's just a world, it's just a life.
That's way too broad a broad generalization.
All of sports are people performing athletic feats under certain amounts of constrictions. That females are not generally as athletic or explosive as men does not mean that there cannot be interesting technique involved in whatever endeavor we are looking at. It only means that they have extra constrictions to work around.
To call it a “watered down” version is just naive and reeks of a lack of understanding and of a very narrow understanding of the concept of what sport should be, especially when considering that the same amount of funding and infrastructure and development is not allocated in an equal manner.
It is no secret that female sports will never match the level of physical feats of its male counterparts, and it shouldn’t even aim to do so, anyways.
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by Unabomberman on Feb 20, 2012 2:41 AM EST up reply actions
One of the problems though...
Is the depth of the division. Because not so many women learn, train and then aspire to be professional WMMAists, the effect we get in WMMA fights is generally a “watered down” or “lower skill level” experience. And there’s not enough fighters in the division to generate interest in storylines, progression, etc. Basically you struggle to find good title challengers as it is! Match ups below that are even less interesting.
I get that point
I don’t think WMMA is as shallow as people think though, i just don’t feel like promoters are willing to push it properly and sustainably. Even some of the top women end up having to fight in tiny promotions just to get a fight because their main promoter only gives them a fight every so often, like Jessica Aguilar fighting for Fight Time Promotions over the weekend.
But I do agree that there is a lack of depth within each promotion that promotes WMMA. The top female fighters are spread out between the US, Japan and Europe and getting them to fight each other can be a ball ache. On top of that, the world of MMA cannot be that appealing for a lot of women because of the chauvinism that comes with it, so I still don’t think we are getting as many women training to fight as want to fight.
Also
Women at this point in time just aren’t ass good as their male counterparts, and some people refuse to watch because of this.
by discoandherpes on Feb 20, 2012 4:38 AM EST up reply actions
But
you never have to declare a choice between "I will watch every WMMA fight’ or “I will watch zero WMMA fights.” You can decide each one on its own. Most people agree that Tate/Rousey will be a skillful, interesting contest – and it would be silly to ignore a skillful, interesting contest just because other women fighters in other situations aren’t as good.
by James Kimbell on Feb 20, 2012 9:05 AM EST up reply actions
I agree, I'm just looking at it from another point of view
Even Rousey and Tate aren’t as good as their bantamweight counterparts, so I don’t blame someone for not watching it.
by discoandherpes on Feb 20, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
There is a huge disparity in talent if one starts drawing comparisons.
I was only reading a few months ago, in the blogs of Roxanne Modafferi, how she’s just hit a wall against girls that fight at her weight class but who, unlike her, are cutting weight to go down. This kind of shift hadn’t happened before, and it just shows you how behind the curve the ladies were in plenty of aspects, but are just catching up. Now imagine the other things they haven’t been doing, or the kind of training they are missing.
Miesha Tate is basically trained mostly by her man, Bryan Caraway, if one takes what she says at face value; and Ronda just said that her current trainer didn’t even show her enough respect to start working with her until after she had proved herself around the gym. That’s just nuts, especially considering how plenty of male athletes have their training camps designed completely around them at the championship or contender level.
I just don’t think there is even room to make comparisons unless both sets of athletes are performing under similar circumstances.
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by Unabomberman on Feb 20, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
I think that is because trainers probably don’t want to invest time into a female fighter because they think that they’ll quit if they are pushed too hard. I’m not saying it’s right, but a bit understandable considering a large number of female fighters are just women who took up kickboxing or bjj just to get or stay in shape. A lot of women don’t hit the gym with the sole purpose of becoming a fighter.
by discoandherpes on Feb 20, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
I hear you.
But Ronda is an Olympic caliber athlete, and Miesha is a pro and has been on the game for a while, already.
I guess it will take time to get better, but it won’t be until after a while when the next crop of girls show up that we will start seeing the technical aspect emerge as more and more infrastructure gets developed and females have an easier time accessing it. Until then, I don’t think we can compare both different branches of the sport in any kind of serious scenario.
The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.
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by Unabomberman on Feb 20, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
But is there really any combat sport where the female athletes are just as good as the men?
by discoandherpes on Feb 20, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
But that's not the point
It’s hard to argue that there is any sport where women can’t be just as good as men. What would it be that is holding women back?
While it’s obviously not true that women have the same athletic capabilities as men, they can surely have equal skill. Since weight classes already separate athletes based on such considerations, there’s no reason why we can’t judge women solely on their abilities to fight other women. Given the opportunities to train full time, I don’t see why they wouldn’t be as good as male fighters.
They in theory, can be as skilled as male fighters
But they are not right now, so the argument is still valid.
by discoandherpes on Feb 20, 2012 9:51 PM EST up reply actions
That seems a pretty outlandish statement
Do you think Ronda Rousey’s trainer was justified in dissing her because she wasn’t likely to be comitted? I think olympic medals require a certain amount of commitment.
The problem is that it is men who draw big money and they will get the attention of gyms that want to attract money.
That being said, I don’t think there is such a massive skills gap between the top female fighters and male fighters, even if there is a significant physical gap.
There still is a massive skills gap between elite level male and female fighters
Cyborg for example is about as skilled as her journeyman (now separated) husband. You could say the same for Tate or Rousey. Rousey’s one dimensional skillset or Tate’s striking would not fly if they were men fighting in the UFC.
In the whole trainer situation, I wasn’t specifically pointing out Rousey as an example, just saying that in general that might be a common attitude.
by discoandherpes on Feb 20, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
There still is a massive skills gap between elite level male and female fighters
Cyborg for example is about as skilled as her journeyman (now separated) husband. You could say the same for Tate or Rousey. Rousey’s one dimensional skillset or Tate’s striking would not fly if they were men fighting in the UFC.
In the whole trainer situation, I wasn’t specifically pointing out Rousey as an example, just saying that in general that might be a common attitude.
by discoandherpes on Feb 20, 2012 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
Thing is..
I actually read both a couple times each trying to figure out what was different between the two before I realized it was just a doppelganger post.
Moving slow today. :/
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jim-ma, I agree with you
this ad is pathetic and I feel bad for Miesha & Ronda, both of whom are very serious athletes, for more or less having to go along with it in order to get more people interested. I do not envy their positions sometimes — having a bunch of out of shape couchsurfers talk about how they are “not that good” makes my eyes roll out of my head. the amount of shit that female athletes have to put up with is unreal.
and I find it genuinely astonishing how many people can unselfconsciously pontificate about gender issues and male gaze without ever having read a single book about feminism. or not. internets forever.
SEX SELLS LOL. I AM MY PENIS AND THEY ARE THEIR VAGINAS AND TOGETHER WE ARE ONE-DIMENSIONAL. I DON’T FEEL INSULTED OR PANDERED TO AT ALL!!!11 GSP WAS SEXY THIS ONE TIME THEREFORE EVERYTHING IS EQUAL.
A thousand years ago five minutes were
Equal to forty ounces of fine sand -- Nabokov
It is unfortunate how people look at female fighters
But let’s not pretend that there is a female fighter who is pound for pound superior to their male counterpart.
by discoandherpes on Feb 21, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
Nobody is saying that.
The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.
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by Unabomberman on Feb 22, 2012 2:03 AM EST up reply actions
I just wanted to point out there is a difference between saying stupid shit on the internet
And pointing out a fact.
by discoandherpes on Feb 22, 2012 3:04 AM EST up reply actions
pointing out a fact repeatedly makes you seem autistic
A thousand years ago five minutes were
Equal to forty ounces of fine sand -- Nabokov
by mollcutpurse on Feb 22, 2012 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
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