Shogun Rua And Alistair Overeem Situations Highlight Tensions Between UFC And Managers
by Nate Wilcox on Feb 13, 2012 2:00 PM EST
in UFC Analysis
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Last week former UFC light heavyweight champion Mauricio "Shogun" Rua tweeted that he has parted ways with his long-time manager Eduardo Alonso: "I would like to tell that I no longer work with Eduardo Alonso, we still friends, as usually."
Shogun spoke to Sherdog and elaborated a bit more on why he is parting with Alonso after five years together. The first reason Rua mentioned was his desire to have a separate coach, media team and business manager but he also made this very revealing comment:
There are some different people helping me with this part right now; I'm still thinking. The UFC has made it clear that we don't need a manager; all negotiations are conducted by the athletes themselves. A manager today is not like in the Pride days. At that time, they had much more weight. I am in favor of a manager, that's not the reason that I separated from Eduardo. I want to work with people nearby: Eduardo works in Sao Paulo and I'm in Curitiba. But, this is not the only reason. There are others, like I said.
Zach Arnold at Fight Opinion commented:
The UFC's stance about guys not needing agents is not anything new if you've followed what Dana White has said online for a while now. What is new is that you have several top Brazilian fighters all of a sudden abandoning their managers/agents after UFC picks up major steam in Brazil w/ the help of uber-rich Eike Batista. Amazing how fast attitudes are changing now that UFC has found their dream money man in a dream money market to attract major-league talent & run big shows at.
Everyone has a right to proper & good representation. Unfortunately, often times we see horrible representation for fighters and promoters can easily take advantage of said reps or dismiss the fighter(s) altogether. But let's call a spade a spade here - if Shogun and other top Brazilian fighters believe that they don't need a quality representative or agent/manager, then that's just plain stupid. It's also incredibly dangerous and eliminates any kind of leverage a fighter has in negotiations.
For an example of the way the UFC goes around fighter management, look no further than the confusion around the Carlos Condit vs. Nick Diaz rematch that seemed briefly imminent. The last person to know about the fight agreement was apparently Condit's manager Malki Kawa.
In a related note Alistair Overeem's former management team Golden Glory has gotten another court order to garnish his pay from UFC 141. More on that after the jump.
SBN coverage of UFC 143: Diaz vs. Condit
Via MMA Torch:
Golden Glory - through their corporate parent company Knockout Investments - obtained an order requiring Zuffa to withhold $427,714.27 of Overeem's earnings from his UFC 141 victory over Brock Lesnar. They were required to post a surety bond in that amount, which they have done, and the order was executed on January 24 and served to Zuffa.
...The money will be held in escrow until a judgment is made in the currently ongoing lawsuit filed by Golden Glory against Overeem. In the cage, Overeem is expected back on May 26 in a Heavyweight Championship bout against Junior dos Santos at UFC 146.
Overeem spoke to Sherdog about the situation a while back:
"First, Alistair believes that the split between himself and Golden Glory should be kept between the parties," the statement reads. "Although he has been tempted to expose ongoing problems with Golden Glory's business, its poor relationship with some of its remaining fighters, and the deep betrayal he has experienced in recent years, he has chosen not to air the specifics of those facts.
"We can say that Alistair and his legal team are very confident in the legal positions he has taken or will take in the California and Nevada litigation. Alistair is looking forward to having a judge or jury determine the merits of his position in this litigation.
"Although overtures regarding resolution of the lawsuits have been made by Golden Glory, Alistair believes it is important to see this matter to conclusion, not just for himself, but for other Golden Glory fighters, the UFC and its fans."
Overeem split with Golden Glory in September after 11 years together following a bitter fight that saw Zuffa cut Overeem from Strikeforce and go on to sever ties with all but one Golden Glory fighter in both Strikeforce and the UFC. He filed suit against them in November.
Today Overeem announced that he's signed with Authentic Sports Management via MMA Mania:
"With [ASM], I saw right away that Glenn Robinson has a system in place that allows the fighter to focus on training only, which is so important as I prepare for my UFC heavyweight title fight against Junior Dos Santos," said Overeem. "ASM has a team of experts to help you grow as an athlete, from Glenn working hands-on as management to Jen Wenk handling my PR and Karen Gough running marketing, a full-time nutritionist, a finance and legal department - you name it they have it. After meeting with ASM, I was convinced that they can make me the new UFC world champion."
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That is why lawyers and accountants are still in business. Business of any kind can be a complex beast. Having solid management to look out for a fighter is just good sense. Which manager? That is another story.
by voiceinthedesert on Feb 13, 2012 2:08 PM EST reply actions
Neutral
I’m kind of neutral on the whole issue because of the seeming lack of legit managers in the sport. I think it’s good if a fighter has a legitimate manager/lawyer that is looking out for THEIR interests in making these deals. They need someone who is more versed and experienced in contracts as well as sports management. A lot of these guys don’t seem to have that, and that is neither in their interest or the UFC’s. If there is no real negotiation, such as a 6/6 entry-level contract, a manager is pretty much worthless, but a lawyer and possibly a fight manager can still be of great value to the fighter. I have a hard time thinking that someone like Ken Pavia is in it for the fighters, though.
Time will solve this
The lack of legit managers will be a thing of the past in a few years from now as most fighters will then have the means to hire top management. As of now, only a select few have ’’legit’’ management.
by voiceinthedesert on Feb 13, 2012 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
To expand that thought.
Managers work for the fighters.
If a fighter can articulate, outline, specify or simply know what they want their manager to do for them, then they will find a good or great manager.
If a fighter does not clearly know they want or should expect from a manager, then I’m sure they will run into issues, problems and many disagreements.
A manager-fighter relationship should be explicit.
It works the same way in the music business or basically any industry.
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by VeeisAnimated on Feb 13, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions
all joking aside
pretty sad for casey affleck that rua fired him.
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by gspmademegay on Feb 13, 2012 2:16 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
He's gone baby, gone.
Menckenstein:
(noun)
Definition: a traditional doll crafted from the stomach hair of obese, unkempt, typically diabetic men who suck at fighting. This type of doll is commonly crafted in the deep South and seems to be exclusively purchased by fans of the NBA franchise the LA Lakers, who believe the dolls give them the power to be as cool as Celtics fans.
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by menckenstein on Feb 13, 2012 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
Im not ok with fighters not having managers. These people need someone to work on their behalf and keep their best interests in mind.
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I'm not OK with it either
but I’m more OK with Malki having to work at Burger King.
Menckenstein:
(noun)
Definition: a traditional doll crafted from the stomach hair of obese, unkempt, typically diabetic men who suck at fighting. This type of doll is commonly crafted in the deep South and seems to be exclusively purchased by fans of the NBA franchise the LA Lakers, who believe the dolls give them the power to be as cool as Celtics fans.
Daniel James Miller Foundation - Please donate, every penny helps.
by menckenstein on Feb 13, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Excellent...
Menckenstein:
(noun)
Definition: a traditional doll crafted from the stomach hair of obese, unkempt, typically diabetic men who suck at fighting. This type of doll is commonly crafted in the deep South and seems to be exclusively purchased by fans of the NBA franchise the LA Lakers, who believe the dolls give them the power to be as cool as Celtics fans.
Daniel James Miller Foundation - Please donate, every penny helps.
by menckenstein on Feb 13, 2012 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
hmm
fighters probably are scared to say to dana: “talk to my agent.” with justification. that means they basically have to need for agents, since dana won’t talk to them.
it is nuts to think fighters can just do things on their own as well as they could if they were properly represented. does a guy like shogun need to give up 10% of everything? no, he should be able to grind that down to 5% (which is fine for the agent, since it’s 5% of a bigger number). that is why dana is trying to cut them out of the game (and “managers” have not exactly done themselves much favour in boxing, but agents have really gotten great results for their clients in the other professional sports). it is easier to negotiate with a fighter than with a good agent/manager.
more of the usual baloney from the ufc. eventually i hope the fighters get into a union or something, they put their health at risk for our entertainment and deserve a bigger slice of the pie than it seems like they’re getting.
Nate and Luke
had a pretty informative discussion about the likelyhood of a player’s association forming and it seems highly unlikely that we will see one anytime soon. It would really take the top names in the sport, who currently benefit inordinately from the existent system, to be really, really pissed off at the same time, to summarize.
But not having a negotiator in your employ while dealing with the promotion is just naivete, and shame on the UFC for forwarding this idea.
I thought Lay N Pray was a stupid insult until I watched Tyron Woodley fight.
by DankNabbot on Feb 13, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It seems like a pretty good idea
Being cool with the boss (Dana) is a good idea. Don’t talk business with the guy, have your manager act as the “bad guy”.
by discoandherpes on Feb 13, 2012 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
That quote about the UFC making it clear they don't need managers
Does not sound good at all. Alarm bells should be ringing like crazy. I just still have a hard time believing that some solid agents have not seen fit to swoop in to take this stuff on, given the growth of the sport. I mean, the money may not be there now, but it’s coming, they should be seeing development opportunities here.
I thought Lay N Pray was a stupid insult until I watched Tyron Woodley fight.
If you're an older fighter who knows the ins and outs
it’s probably perfectly acceptable to do w/o a manager. If you’re a younger dude still getting in, that’s probably not a responsibility you should be shouldering
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by Cory Braiterman on Feb 13, 2012 2:31 PM EST reply actions
Upper eschelon fighters need a lawyer, not a manager
Like Shogun said, It’s not like the Pride days. If you’re only working for the UFC, you just need someone to read the contracts and explain them to you. You pay the lawyer by the hour instead of 10% or 20% of all income.
The UFC is a 1 company deal. You’re not trying to get deals with other promotions. Paying the guy who told you “go ahead and sign” a percentage of your income doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
What about handling endorsements?
Is the UFC going to find sponsors for Shogun?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
I’ve got no idea. I’m just posting some totally uninformed, outside-looking-in bullshit. I have no idea how the business works (does anyone else here know?).
I wasn't being critical
I was legitimately asking. I was hoping that maybe you knew?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
Read the article.
Shogun still has people handling his endorsements and income from outside of competition. That was a big part of the reason he let Alonso go. Eduardo wanted to manage everything and Shogun was more comfortable with having specialists manage the non-fighting aspects of his career. They couldn’t come to an agreement so Shogun let him go.
What about future fighters who dump managers?
From what I can tell. That is the biggest responsibility for a manager fight to fight. At least for a top guy in the UFC. After the big money deal is already signed.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
Does Roy Nelson have a manager? ($20,000)
Chael Sonnen has finished 1 of his 14 UFC & WEC fights.
by sexysassytravismmafan on Feb 13, 2012 2:32 PM EST reply actions
TUF contracts are shitty
I think they are for 6 fights so he should be due for a new contract soon but losing isn’t helping his case.
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be." - Kahlil Gibran
by merryprankster on Feb 13, 2012 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
He's married to her
Menckenstein:
(noun)
Definition: a traditional doll crafted from the stomach hair of obese, unkempt, typically diabetic men who suck at fighting. This type of doll is commonly crafted in the deep South and seems to be exclusively purchased by fans of the NBA franchise the LA Lakers, who believe the dolls give them the power to be as cool as Celtics fans.
Daniel James Miller Foundation - Please donate, every penny helps.
by menckenstein on Feb 13, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
The same rule applies in the Octagon as it does outside of it: Protect yourself at all times.
Fighters ditching management to deal directly with the UFC raises major red flags.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
Junior Dos Santos got rid of Ed Soares last year, not sure if he got anyone else instead
Some quotes from JDS:
"I’ll have a manager [again] but for now I have a lawyer in the US and she’s already taking care of my business… We are in touch with the UFC and we let them know we changed things. For now I’m with her and as soon as I see how things will work then I’ll look for my new manager – if I need one," he told R7.com
"To be honest I really don’t know exactly what a manager does and I questioned this before making my decision… Of course he’ll sign contracts, help my career and plan my camps. But I don’t know exactly what’s his function… It’s not clear for me," he added with a laugh.
"In fact, the UFC is such an organized company that they themselves are [practically] our own managers. Usually they already do anything they want in the US. The manager doesn’t have much of a say in UFC’s decisions…. Of course they help here and there but it’s very little."
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight, what you saw, in the ring."
by Horselover Fat on Feb 13, 2012 2:40 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Exactly
Look, if someone’s doing a percentage of your work, then they should get a percentage of your pay. However, if you only need them for 3 or 4 hours a month, then pay them hourly. Knowing absolutely nothing about what’s going on behind the scenes, my hypothesis is that managers have gotten greedy. Now that top fighters aren’t bouncing from one promotion to the next there’s no need to pay some dude a percentage just to post shit on youtube.
All the more reason why there needs to be more than one high level promotion
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
What about endorsements?
Is the UFC going to find sponsors for fighters who don’t use managers?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
highly unlikely
I assume a fighter w/out a manager will handle that himself. Sponsors aren’t the most tedious of paperwork its pretty straight forward when it comes to sponsors some contact you you contact some you come to an agreement how you’ll rep them and what they will compensate you with. More straight forward then a lot of things fighters deal with so shouldn’t be to much of a hassle
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by Bloodsport on Feb 13, 2012 4:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Managers can make a lot of calls and put in a lot of footwork into finding suitable sponsorships and they also can negotiate higher pay for the sponsorships. A lot of fighters could benefit from having a good manager get them sponsorships. They could see their money go from $1,000 or $2,000 all the way up to $10,000 just by having the right guy helping you out.
Wayne Brady makes Bryant Gumble look like Malcolm X.
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they can hire a manager just for sponsorships.
by Phildo on Feb 14, 2012 8:37 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
This is all well and good but....
how about finding a fucking fight for Shogun already…..might as well book the rematch with Hendo. I realize the toll that fight took and the medical suspensions etc. but Shogun nor Hendo have been in the news lately at all not even a rumor of a possible fight does anyone know anything about either one of them and a potential rematch or at least fight either one of them would be perfect to headline a FOX card.
Alistair
just signed with Authentic Sports Management. They manage Rashad and some other dudes
"Well, whatever you do, however terrible, however hurtful, it all makes sense, doesn't it, in your head. You never meet anybody that thinks they're a bad person."
Seems Shady on UFC's Part
So Station Casino’s has the reputation as being anti-union. I am not pro union by any means but this whole no manager needed seems in that direction.
Top managers would potentially manage multiple top MMA fighters. They would have the knowledge across their talent pool how fighters are being treated and compensated.
If fighters start to handle everything on their own they will be in the dark about how other fighters are being treated. Maybe guys in the same camp might be more open but how often do you talk about salary with coworkers.
This just smells in the UFC’s favor.
It's almost like the UFC doesn't want anyone to have knowledge of the inner workings of MMA
They also want to have full control of the Strikeforce production now from Showtime. Which ultimately says that they want to do whatever they can to eliminate any potential competition.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "
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