Aristotle Knows Nick Diaz Didn't Cheat
by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 7:19 AM EST
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PrintThis is not a defense of Nick Diaz.
Nick Diaz broke the rules and now he has to face whatever punishment is meted out by his employer and the Nevada State Athletic Commission. I leave the debate over what that punishment should be to a dozen other posts, and thousands of other vitriolic comments.
What this is, is a defense of basic logic, and the hopefully noncontroversial premise that words have meanings that should be respected.
First, let's break down the deductive method behind the belief that Nick cheated by using marijuana:
1) Using marijuana is against the rules
2) Violating the rules is cheating
3) Nick Diaz used marijuana
Therefore
4) Nick Diaz cheated
The process of that deduction is fine, but the outcome is wrong, because one of the premises -- 2) violating the rules is cheating -- is demonstrably incorrect.
So let's talk about that premise. I've looked up cheating in every dictionary I can get my hands on, and the primary definition is, universally, some variation of the following:
"Act dishonestly to gain an advantage, esp. in a game or examination: 'she cheats at cards.'"
In all cases, the primary definition of cheating focuses around an act of deception intended to defraud or deprive another person out of something of value. Without the intent to gain an unfair advantage, the dishonest act itself is not enough to constitute cheating. So unless you can make a case that Nick Diaz smoked marijuana to gain an advantage over his opponents (and I'd be interested in seeing that logical process unfold) you can't make the case that he cheated.
So let's go back to that second premise: 2) violating the rules is cheating. It fails its own deduction.
Both of the following premises are correct
1) all rules prohibit cheating
2) some rules prohibit things that are not cheating
Therefore
3) While all cheating is rule breaking, not all rule breaking is cheating
Nick Diaz violated the rules, but he didn't cheat, and that's not just semantics. His actions are missing a critical element of willful, purposeful deception that makes cheating so odious in sport. He should be judged for his rule violations, but not against the standard of cheaters.
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drives me nuts when people equate all rule breaking to cheating.
Cheating is knowingly and purposefully breaking the rules in an effort to win.
this is a case of lack of self-discipline
To have a Cannae you must have a Varo
-George Patton
"The complete man must work, study and wrestle."
-Aristotle
by T.P. Grant on Feb 10, 2012 7:39 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
WHY DID YOU DELETE MY COMMENTS!!!!!
they werent bad, I just said that Diaz cheated and that weed is a PED to some people depending on how you use it.
Sensative new moderators.
Seriously don't take me serious. Seriously....
cheat. verb (used without object) cheat. verb (used without object)
4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.
5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.
6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.
(source)
Let’s see: (4) practicing fraud or deceit and (6) to take an examination or test in a dishonest way. We are talking about the guy who brags about fooling tests, aren’t we? (5) violating rules or regulations: check.
See? I can play the definition game, too. It’s impossible to win that game, since different dictionaries use different definitions. Which probably reflects the fact that different people ascribe different denotations and connotations to the word.
by Simen on Feb 10, 2012 8:07 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
But what was 1 2 and 3?
"If you think, you're late. If you're late, you muscle. If you muscle, you get tired. If you tired, you die. When you die is when you tap..."
-Saulo Ribeiro
I'm not playing games
My point is that the definition of cheating — particularly in the context of sport — is not as flexible as it’s being made out to be.
In sports, the word cheating is almost universally used to describe an act that curries unfair advantage to the cheater. In our own sport, common cheats like greasing, PEDS, fence-grabbing, etc. all harm — or have the potential to harm — the opponent of the cheater.
So simply from an ethical standpoint Nick Diaz’s rule-breaking should be considered in a different context from cheating.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 9:52 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You said the premise was demonstrably incorrect. I found a trustworthy source—this isn’t the Nick Diaz Hater’s Dictionary—that corroborates the premise. Is it so hard to see that words aren’t always that easy to nail down?
I think you’re putting too much stock in a word here, anyway. No one has said that what Nick did is as bad as taking steroids or loading your gloves.
by Simen on Feb 10, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I encourage you to go check the comment threads from yesterday
because a large number of people are either directly suggesting, or strongly inferring, exactly that.
The word is important, because it colors our responses. When people call for Nick to be treated like Josh Barnett, who is an unreformed steroid cheat, I think it calls for us to reexamine how we talk about this sort of rule breaking.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 10:09 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
That thread is such a shitstorm. Do you have any direct quotes, so I don’t have to go wading through all that?
It basically crashes my browser at this point
so I’m afraid you’ll have to trust me. Several people were equating Nick’s actions to Barnet’s actions. Several other people suggested that what Nick did was less odious than what Chael did because Nick is a repeat offender. There is a ton of direct equivocation between PED cheating and pot smoking, which is what prompted me to write this in the first place.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Denotations and connotations?
Rec’d.
by Brent Ducharme on Feb 10, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Look at the example of 5,
who would call it cheating at cards doing something that didn’t get you an advantadge?
I smoke on the mic like Smokin' Joe Frazier
Clearing out your system and Pissing clean is not "fooling" a test.
It’s “passing” a test. He did not attempt to use any masking agents or submit a fake sample.
You are wrong.
"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."
"Train by day... Joe Rogan Podcast By Night... All Day!"
Aristotle’s concept of definition is far more flexible than the accounts provided in your nearest dictionary. The idea that definitions can be objective and universal really would not have made sense to him. Instead, he would rely on the powers of the interpreting subject to judge the essence of a thing rather than check off a list of qualities which must be met to be adequately defined as such-and-such.
The Greeks understood disagreement much better than folks today. We can disagree on whether we think a person is a cheater based on whatever we find particularly compelling. It’s not as simple as finding a single universal definition and testing the situation to see if it matches that definition.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
I'm less interested in his concept of definition here
than I am in his approach to logical deduction, as described in Prior Analytics. I think the deduction that is leading people to call Nick Diaz a cheater because he broke the rules is fundamentally flawed.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 9:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, Aristotle didn't think definitions were universal?
you don’t know what the hell you are talking about.
I smoke on the mic like Smokin' Joe Frazier
Yeah. What Diaz did was stupid. What , Marquardt, Hendo, Sonnen, etc. do is cheating. What Margarito did was the worst kind of cheating possible.
Fuck you, double fingers
- Nick Diaz
Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society
- Mark Twain
by TheLastEmpress on Feb 10, 2012 9:06 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I don't want to take away from the fact that he broke the rules
He knew what they were, and he broke them — at least twice. Whatever you think of the rules in question, that act deserves some form of punishment. I just think you have to put it in its own context, away from cheating, which is more directly harmful to the sport and more ethically unforgivable.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
What?
It’s not harmful to the sport. It’s harmful to the person that smokes pot. By your logic, Joe Rogan, the self proclaimed pot smoker and defender of Michael Phelps to Kelloggs, should be thrown out of the UFC too. Guaranteed he’d fail a drug test. It’s a stupid rule, didn’t give Diaz an advantage, the judges screwed him and the Diaz haters are partying while they light their bongs!
What Margarito did was the worst kind of cheating possible
Indeed.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Hell no
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight, what you saw, in the ring."
by Horselover Fat on Feb 10, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions
did Margarito go to jail for that?
I do think that Mosley could have pressed charges, but he chose not to.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 11, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Yea, that's a serious thin to do
Peoe have died from this. I was a boxer for years and this can kill
You
Seriously don't take me serious. Seriously....
Nice break down
I can see the point you are making and it makes complete sense.
I don't think Diaz cheated, since I don't think it's even in the same league as PEDs, but I just want to play devil's advocate for a second:
What about the effects of marijuana to reduce inhibitions, reduce fear or calm someone down enough to let someone cope with their nerves and emotions… With Diaz’ social anxiety, it’s clear marijuana has a place in his life to help relax him. Do you think marijuana can give a fighter an edge that way?
To be clear, I don’t think Diaz cheated. He broke a rule, but didn’t cheat. Just throwing that out there to get opinions.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
Unless he lit up the same day of the fight
he would not experience any of those effects while fighting because they don’t last very long. If you’re asking if it would give him an edge during the lead-up to the fight, I think alcohol and sex can be lumped into that category as stress-relievers too, if you wanna look at it that way. Just my opinion.
Long-time lurker, part-time troll.
he would not experience any of those effects while fighting because they don’t last very long
This is not actually the case. For a heavy user, cannabis can remain active in an individual’s system for quite some time after use, either in their the blood or fat cells, and will break down slowly, retaining a mild degree of its effects as it does so.
Generally, high levels of relaxation are typically seen in high consumption users, even if they have not consumed in the previous 24 hours.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Generally, high levels of relaxation are typically seen in high consumption users, even if they have not consumed in the previous 24 hours.
Most stoners will attest to this.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
It feels like a pretty major stretch to me
Certainly it fails the basic intent test that I think should be required for cheating. His primary purpose in smoking weed is not to gain an unfair advantage.
And secondly, the “benefits” of use are pretty short-lived, unlike PEDs, which can continue conferring benefit long after initial ingestion. Marijuana famously stays in the system for weeks after it stops having an active effect.
I guess its an interesting argument that he’s self-medicating for anxiety, and that confers some sort of advantage (or levels the playing field in an unfair way), but I still would argue it falls short of cheating.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
His primary purpose in smoking weed is not to gain an unfair advantage.
And yet, if he does gain an inadvertant advantage, then this is still unfair, regardless of intent. This is why there is provision for TUEs, and why they are so important.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
anyone who thinks smoking weed
will give them a wicked advantage in the cage is smoking too much meth get a grip man, classing steroids and weed in same class is pathetic to say the least but each to his own
I'm being honest about this smoking weed separated me from the holy spirit... It came between me and Jesus. - Diego Sanchez
Would that be an unfair advantage though?
If Diaz really has social anxiety, you could argue that he is already at a disadvnatage, and maybe smoking pot is merely leveling the playing field. To extend the argument, what if he or anyone else was on antidepressant or anti-anxiety meds? Would they have to then stop too?
Just adding this
So unless you can make a case that Nick Diaz smoked marijuana to gain an advantage over his opponents (and I’d be interested in seeing that logical process unfold)
1) Diaz has said in various interviews that he relies upon cannabis to keep himself stable and consistent.
2) If Diaz was unable to consume cannabis, he would not have this level of stability, and probably would not train with as much dedication and focus.
3) Other fighters, who do not consume cannabis, could then be said to be at a disadvantage compared to Diaz, who has this beneificial factor on his side.
If you accept that Diaz uses Cannabis to “help” himself, then it follows that he is gaining an advantage by using it. He engages with opponents who do not, so it is an unfair advantage, and, due to its illegality, constitutes cheating.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 10:54 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
That was my thinking as well
Minowa is a little guy but he's very good to break a fighters foot and my foot is very special to me.
Hurray!
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
I just put it in a different way
Minowa is a little guy but he's very good to break a fighters foot and my foot is very special to me.
Even if we take at face value the premise that Nick's use is medicinal, rather than recreational
rather than recreational, I think it’s still a huge stretch to say that marijuana provides an unfair advantage that puts other fighters at a disadvantage.
To the extent that he’s essentially self-medicating a pretty acute case of social anxiety disorder, he’s not giving himself an unfair benefit, so much as he is medicating a major impairment (which I suspect he’d be permitted to medicate under NSAC rules with legally prescribed anti-anxiety medications).
Marijuana may make him more comfortable and emotionally stable, but it doesn’t confer the sort of direct athletic advantage that PEDs confer, and it certainly isn’t taken with the goal of gaining an unfair advantage, as PEDs universally are.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
To the extent that he’s essentially self-medicating a pretty acute case of social anxiety disorder, he’s not giving himself an unfair benefit, so much as he is medicating a major impairment
I don’t really believe that Diaz suffers from social anxiety disorder, so we differ here.
which I suspect he’d be permitted to medicate under NSAC rules
I am under the impression that he would.
it doesn’t confer the sort of direct athletic advantage that PEDs confer
Yet it does give him, per himself, a mental advantage, and the mental aspect of MMA is clearly significant. All fighters experience fear and nerves, often to the detriment of their performance, and Diaz has an illegal way to alleviate these mental restrictions. In what way is that not an advantage over those that he is competing against?
and it certainly isn’t taken with the goal of gaining an unfair advantage
However, it may still give him an advantage, regardless of intent, in the same way that many seemingly benign prescription medicines can, such as inhalers which require TUEs due to their steroid content.
By the by, I do not actually feel that Cannabis should be illegal.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
I'll admit, your break down of my break down is excellent.
I still find an enormous ethical gulf between PED cheating and what Nick did, but you may have poked a hole in my excellent 7am logical proof.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
It's been excellent chatting
However, it would appear that the powers that be have deemed my comments unsuitable!
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Oh
And I don’t think that Diaz chated, I just like this sort of discourse.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
However, it would appear that the powers that be have deemed my comments unsuitable!
Or maybe Firefox was just playing tricks on me…
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, site's been a little unstable the past week or so.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Using marijuana for dealing with his anxiety gives him an advatage??
that’s stupid.
No, your dumb
by RashadsLeftNipple on Feb 10, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
Then...why doesn't he stop?
Considering the ramifications, why wouldn’t he just stop smoking long enough to prepare for a fight while clean?
that has nothing to do with anything
Who knows why he doesn’t stop. He probably doesn’t want to. Maybe he thought he stopped early enough for it to be out of his system. EVERYONE knew before this fight that Nick Diaz smokes weed. If he passed his test no one would be saying a thing about his habits.
Let’ say hypothetically you knew that he smoked 2 weeks before the fight. Do you think he did anything wrong by doing that? He did it legally and would not be feeling the effects of smoking by the time the fight happened.
Rules and laws are in place for a reason, but that doesnt mean they’re always right
No, your dumb
by RashadsLeftNipple on Feb 13, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
At the end of the day, I don’t really care if someone does marijuana, but the argument for gaining an advantage through marijuana use is certainly there. Do people remember Ross Rebagliati? The asshat who won a gold in men’s snowboarding in 1998 who got popped for THC in his system? He claimed he had such levels in his body due to second hand smoke, which was obviously bullshit. Anyway, he got his medal back mostly due to marijuana not being a banned substance at the time, but people claimed he could get an advantage by using marijuana to calm his nerves and reduce fear, an advantage that other non users would not have. The said mental advantage you alluded to.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
I am also familiar with accounts of Cannabis usage amongst body builders
But am unsure how verifiable these are.
This is an interesting article.
http://www.illpumpyouup.com/articles/marijuana-and-bodybuilding.htm
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
I largely agree with your point
But inhalers are a bad example. The reason they require a TUE is because they’d cause a false positive – the chemical signature of the steroids in inhalers would be picked up by a drug test since they’re very similar to those found in anabolic steroids – but there’s no performance benefit, especially an anabolic one, from their use.
Proud member of The Voices in Paul Harris' Head, BECW Season 2.
"By doubting we come to inquiry and by inquiry we perceive the truth." -- Abelard
by Patrick Wyman on Feb 10, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
That's a very fair point
Take various types of ACE Inhibitors, such as Lisinopril, that promote the healthy flow of blood around the body, potentially giving an advantage to an athlete. Lisinopril requires a TUE, but is primarily taken usually to reduce strain on the heart or kidneys, not as a PED.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 10, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
You made great points
But, I don’t think cannabis is prohibited by the AC because they feel it would give an unfair advantage to the user, they just won’t allow recreational drugs because they’re illegal. So, this is a spin we’re doing here that the NSAC never even considered.
"To me in this sport, it’s fighting, it’s mixed martial arts, and I feel there’s too many athletes and not enough fighters…I think these people going in taking these sports enhancement drugs, they’re not real fighters, they’re athletes. I’m a fighter. I’m a real fighter. That’s all I did my whole life." - BJ Penn
dam drunken cutman
stop with ur good too shoes thinking, weed isnt like peds or wateva, and he still lost so i dont know how much of an advantage there was
I'm being honest about this smoking weed separated me from the holy spirit... It came between me and Jesus. - Diego Sanchez
the legality argument is weak since it’s legal where he lives and uses it, and illegal where he gets tested for it. so if you assume it’s legal when he’s doing it, and illegal when he’s not, how does that change your argument?
A thousand years ago five minutes were
Equal to forty ounces of fine sand -- Nabokov
by mollcutpurse on Feb 11, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
I'll post this question again since it may have gotten lost in the other thread
Question
Is it a PED if he needs it to be able to set foot in the cage because of his anxiety? I mean, if he wouldn’t be able to get in the cage in a state of sobriety because of his anxiety, and he smokes weed to be able to get in the cage, I’d say that’s a PED. IT allows him to perform where he would be unable to under normal circumstances. Now this is just a question and is hypothetical because I have no clue of that’s what he does but people have been saying, in these posts this past week, that he takes it for anxiety.
Minowa is a little guy but he's very good to break a fighters foot and my foot is very special to me.
Is it a PED if he needs it to be able to set foot in the cage because of his anxiety? I mean, if he wouldn’t be able to get in the cage in a state of sobriety because of his anxiety, and he smokes weed to be able to get in the cage, I’d say that’s a PED. IT allows him to perform where he would be unable to under normal circumstances. Now this is just a question and is hypothetical because I have no clue of that’s what he does but people have been saying, in these posts this past week, that he takes it for anxiety.
Minowa is a little guy but he's very good to break a fighters foot and my foot is very special to me.
From what I've read
Diaz seems to smoke weed up to around 10 days before his fight, and then lets his body metabolize the substance out of his system. In this case, it seems his body wasn’t able to do so in time.
by thelastsultan on Feb 10, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yah I have no clue
But if he does do it before a fight so he can cope with getting in the cage then it’s a PED. I just don’t care enough about all this to get so worked up.
Minowa is a little guy but he's very good to break a fighters foot and my foot is very special to me.
But if he does do it before a fight so he can cope with getting in the cage then it’s a PED
damn man u smoke some weed then try perform at work or wateva get a clue, he smokes weed coz he likes it and maybe he has some social issues but its not a ped, u get a scientist or wateva to say it is then i have egg on my face but i dont think any smart person would say its a PED…..
I'm being honest about this smoking weed separated me from the holy spirit... It came between me and Jesus. - Diego Sanchez
I like your logic and I see where you are coming from but I still disagree. If Nick is truly taking marijuana for therapeutic use, rather than abusing the loose regulation in California, it’s not a stretch to say that Nick Diaz is attempting to enhance his performance by utilizing marijuana to curb his anxiety. To me, that gives Nick the advantage necessary to fulfill both criteria of rule violation and cheating.
On an aside:
Some pretty heavy parallels can be drawn between Nick’s actions and those who use TRT (like Dan Henderson). There are two key differences.
1) I think it is pretty safe to say that TRT has a greater direct impact on performance than marijuana.
2) Despite that, there is a framework and precident in place for fighters using TRT to apply for a TUE (therapeutic usage exemption).
I believe the controversy stems from the contrast between procedural and legal handling for the two groups. There doesn’t seem to be much logic or fairness behind it.
I'd have to disagree with your reasoning here
Nick Diaz is attempting to enhance his performance by utilizing marijuana to curb his anxiety. To me, that gives Nick the advantage necessary to fulfill both criteria of rule violation and cheating.
If Diaz is taking marijuana to help with some sort of anxiety disorder then I wouldn’t really consider it cheating. It wouldn’t qualify as an attempt to gain an unfair advantage, but rather as an attempt to remove a disadvantage. Much like a severe depression sufferer being unable to step foot in the cage without anti depressants.
Although if this is the case then he really should just take some sort of legitimate medication for it.
I think most people agree that he is taking marijuana f in order to deal with some sort of anxiety disorder due in part to his personality and in part to the fact that Ceasar says so. That’s why I believe this is so similar to TRT but less severe; an athlete is trying to correct a problem they believe is ailing them.
According to Keith Kizer, Nick could have gone the Hendo route and applied for a TUE, but he went the Chael route instead.
I think this is the most frustrating part of the story,
since it seems a TUE is possible in this case.
by thelastsultan on Feb 10, 2012 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
bq If Diaz is taking marijuana to help with some sort of anxiety disorder then I wouldn’t really consider it cheating. It wouldn’t qualify as an attempt to gain an unfair advantage, but rather as an attempt to remove a disadvantage. Much like a severe depression sufferer being unable to step foot in the cage without anti depressants.
well said and nice analogy but these peasants are still gona put it as PED’s
I'm being honest about this smoking weed separated me from the holy spirit... It came between me and Jesus. - Diego Sanchez
Logic for the win
Very nice post.
Proud member of The Voices in Paul Harris' Head, BECW Season 2.
"By doubting we come to inquiry and by inquiry we perceive the truth." -- Abelard
Aristotle was the father of modern logic
and deductive reasoning. (and because I’ve been reading Prior Analytics).
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
We also would have accepted
George Boole, Gottlob Frege, or Rudolph Carnap. Though Aristotle has a much better ring to it.
"All noble things are as difficult as they are rare."
- Baruch Spinoza
The most classless fan in college football since 1984.
Frege is the founder of modern logic.
But I’m nerdy like that.
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Feb 10, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
What if
his opponent wanted to have a buzz on for the fight,, or wanted to take advantage of the calming therapeutic value of mj in the days before the fight, but knew it was against the rules and he obeyed that dictum, while his opponent got the advantages of such therapy, even though it was against the rules? Wouldn’t that be cheating by the non-abiding opponent?
This is why I never used the word “cheated” in my post. Despite what a lot of commenters think they saw. Good piece once again.
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by the time I saw your post
there were 800-something comments in it already, and it all seemed like a lot to tackle, but I definitely wasn’t referring to you (though I still disagree that Diaz should be canned), but rather to the people making a direct parallel between Barnett and Diaz.
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by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
It’s all good, I wasn’t trying to be defensive in regards to my post. Just stating that I agree with your reasoning and used similar rationale in leaving the word out.
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by Avap on Feb 10, 2012 1:58 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Did they bro-fist in Athens?
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by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I like to think
that Socrates and Glaucon were fist bumping after every time Thrasymachus got put in his place.
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by Scott C. Broussard on Feb 10, 2012 8:25 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm a bit confused by all this
According to the World Anti-Doping Agency prohibited list, which is what the NSAC seems to use as their primary referent, Cannabinoids are only prohibited in-competition.
My understanding is Diaz was found to have marijuana metabolites in his system which remain in your system long after the actual THC is broken down in your blood stream.
If the NSAC found Diaz to have metabolites in his system, this does not prove marijuana was in his system in-competition.
I suppose, referring back to the Gomi fight would help clear this up, but I’m lazy.
By this logic
Leben should be allowed to fight drunk.
Guida should be allowed to fight while on Ritalin.
Diego Sanchez should be allowed to fight while on Adderol.
Everyone fighting Anderson Silva should be on Xanax to suppress the “ohshitohshitohshit” effect fighting Anderson Fucking Silva creates.
Every fighter would be allowed to work with a pharmacologist to formulize the right brain chemicals so that they would be numb to the effects of taunting, pre-fight trash talk and pre-fight staredowns.
by RobtWeaver on Feb 10, 2012 3:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I didn't say Nick Diaz should be allowed to do anything
in fact, I said he will and should be punished for breaking the rules.
But he didn’t cheat.
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by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
You’re right, although society is known to reinvent meanings for words. I don’t think the others who claim he’s cheating are necessarily wrong, either, for that reason. Well written as well, but was it worth it? It just seems unnecessary to me. Maybe I’m the only one incredibly burnt out on this topic.
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well, it’s hard to argue that any of our bickering is necessary but I thought this was a valid point to make. This is a terrible move for Diaz, and he has only himself to blame, but I think he’s in a different universe, ethically, from guys who deliberately cheat to gain advantage.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
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by Dave Strummer on Feb 10, 2012 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
Great post and I agree with what you argue.
However, I think you shoot yourself in the foot, and invite arguments over semantics when you refer to the dictionary. IMHO, I think you should have just made a compelling argument about what “cheating” means and work to build consensus.
The dictionary isn’t the authority on language, the people who use the language are.
He knowingly broke the rules – that’s cheating.
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight, what you saw, in the ring."
terrible thinking
I dont like the rules so i wont follow them
by Ricardo Arguello on Feb 10, 2012 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
It's not a matter whether you think a rule is convenient or not,
but whether you think a rule is good or bad. There is a pretty strong case to be made against this marijuana rule being a good rule.
Does that justify breaking it? probably not. But it does suggest that the rule should be re-evaluated.
by thelastsultan on Feb 10, 2012 10:22 PM EST up reply actions
When someone breaks a rule that sucks,
it naturally creates a dialogue surrounding the quality of the rule and the politics of why of the rule was created. And I think, as a whole, society benefits from it For example, when Fred Korematsu resisted internment, he was breaking a fucked up law/rule. Ultimately he was convicted of a felony, but by breaking a shitty rule/law he created a dialogue that made people aware of the case, questioned the racist discourses around internment, and I think it was an admirable act of civil disobedience. Obviously, I’m not saying that laws against weed are anywhere close to as fucked up as internment. I’m just arguing against the ‘rules are rules’ notion that’s often used to shut down discussion.
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by sun yue on Feb 11, 2012 12:50 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
A thousand years ago five minutes were
Equal to forty ounces of fine sand -- Nabokov
by mollcutpurse on Feb 11, 2012 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
Even though Aristotle was a fucking racist. But I digress,
I agree. And the call for the new mods needs to be answered, soon.
Together we are Ruining Your Special Night. Twice.
you had me at
His actions are missing a critical element of willful, purposeful deception that makes cheating so odious in sport.
¬_¬
by ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ on Feb 11, 2012 1:00 AM EST reply actions
i feel like this is detailed, but unnecessary.
does anyone really think Diaz was cheating?
he broke the rules and should be punished/cut/suspended/whatever, but as a technical matter his infraction would not give him an advantage. Again, this shouldn’t lessen the punishment one bit, so i’m not even sure why we’re still talking about this.
ideas? got a head full/one-man penny dreadful
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