Junior Dos Santos Still a Betting Favorite Over Alistair Overeem
by Tim Burke on Jan 4, 2012 2:00 PM EST
in UFC Gambling
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A few weeks before UFC 141, betting site Bookmaker decided to cover both sides of the coin and put out a line for two future UFC heavyweight title bouts: Junior dos Santos vs. Brock Lesnar, and Junior dos Santos vs. Alistair Overeem. This way, people could get in on the action as early as possible. If they bet on Brock vs. JDS, they just got a refund since the bout will never happen, so no big loss. What is interesting is how much (or little) the line on Overeem vs. JDS has changed since Saturday night, and that Dos Santos is still the favorite.
Back when the line originally dropped (before UFC 141), it looked like this:
Overeem +190
Dos Santos -240
As of this morning, it looks like this:
Overeem +147
Dos Santos -177
While that is a substantial difference, I frankly expected a lot more of a swing. It's true that the bout hasn't been officially announced yet, and that this line is from one particular site (Pinnacle is the only other site to drop a line so far, after UFC 141, and it has JDS at -155, Overeem at +140), but I expect to see this line end up close to even by the time the fight rolls around. I'm sure some will find that ridiculous, but that's truly what I see happening.
Basically, if you have some disposable income and you think Alistair Overeem is going to defeat Junior dos Santos, now is the time to make that bet. And if you're leaning toward dos Santos, wait it out. Today's betting advice was brought to you by the letters A and O, and the number 1.
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As it should be.
Although like Jon Jones, the millionth discussion of “We haven’t seen Junior’s takedown defense” and “We haven’t seen him get hit” will be the X-factor in people picking him for the Reem.
I got JDS but this fight cannot fail. It’s the new biggest HW fight in MMA history.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Jan 4, 2012 2:03 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
The fact that we have seen the Reem get hit makes me want to pick JDS
but Reem has a much more diverse skillset in the standup department, and that’s what this fight will be, a standup fight. If Reem can control the distance and either stay on the outside to pick him apart with kicks with a possibility of baiting the takedown where he will go for the guillotine, or get on the inside with his nasty clinch work and knees, then he can beat JDS as long as his defense is good.
I’m going with Reem on this one due to having more paths to victory. It doesn’t mean Reem can’t get KO’d, it’s very possible. JDS basically has a punchers’ chance in this fight and IMO it’s the worst possible stylistic matchup for the champ in the entire division.
I believe JDS has way more than just a puncher’s chance, but I do agree that if he can get past AO then he’s gonna be champ for quite a while.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
I honestly have no clue who is going to win this, but I'm really stoked for it.
I just hope it goes for a few rounds and we get to see some great technical striking… but I have a feeling it’s going to be a few minutes of feeling out and finding the range, and then it will be over fast.
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jan 4, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Although like Jon Jones, the millionth discussion of "We haven’t seen Junior’s takedown defense".
Lesnar couldn’t take Reem down…I think that is takedown defense.
I think you would have to be really stupid to use those arguments against Junior.
This fight will almost certainly be contested standing, at range and in the clinch.
"God loves violence... Why else would there be so much of it? It's in us. It's what we are. We wage war, we burn sacrifices, and pillage and plunder and tear at the flesh of our brothers. And why? Because God gave us violence to wage in his honor... There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?"
- Warden of Ashecliffe Hospital
by ElliotMatheny on Jan 4, 2012 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
Cro cop caught Junior with a few clean straight lefts. They got his attention but that’s about it.
AO went for the TD whenever it was availbale against Cro cop. He wont have those chances against Junior. Bottom line : Junior’s chin is better. He’s never had anything like a kharitonov moment and that’s all the difference you need to pick Junior in this match up.
Trainyard Sleepers: Our Foot Your Ass
by Hardy's in your face on Jan 4, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions
AO took Cro Cop down after he seemed to grow weary of dominating him in the stand-up. He took Werdum down 4+ times from the clinch in their first fight (granted, many fights ago), so I don’t think he would have any issues taking JDS down from the clinch, particularly if the ground is where he feels he has the best advantage.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
So what you’re sayin is that everyone on BE should take out all there money and drop it on Overeem. To the bank I go!
If you can't wow them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
LSU! LSU! LSU! LSU! LSU! LSU!
You still have to go to the bank to get your money?
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by POW on Jan 4, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
It's a close fight I think
Even money I’d take JDS but at these odds Overeem is definitely worth playing a unit or two.
"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
~ Joe Lewis
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
What was wrong with JDS' knee again? MCL repair?
Gonna wait until open workouts or something before I decide on this.
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
Nah, it was just minor surgery. He says he’s close to 100% again.
"I don't know where this term "training camp" in MMA came from. There's no campground. There's no tents." - Nick Diaz
My twitter: @TB_Money
Partially torn meniscus IIRC
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Captain of The Bus Feeders, Bloody Elbow Civil War, Season Two
by T.C. Engel on Jan 4, 2012 3:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Correct
Very minor as knee injuries go.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2012 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
as he should be
Nothing in the Brock fight showed that he should be favored over JDS. Mainly due to the style difference but still, Junior has fought far superior competition.
Writing things on occasion @ Head Kick Legend.
Team Captain for Ruining Your Special Night. That's what we do.
by Earl Montclair on Jan 4, 2012 2:19 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
JDS always stays on the feet.
This is going to be a K-1 match with small gloves.
except Reem wont have giant gloves to block punches
It should be interesting for sure
Writing things on occasion @ Head Kick Legend.
Team Captain for Ruining Your Special Night. That's what we do.
by Earl Montclair on Jan 4, 2012 2:24 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions 3 recs
Your subject line
Its the reason JDS is going to win.
"Computer being attacked by virus contracted from watching illegal japanese schoold girl porn. Bare with me." - Our Bovine Public
Captain of The Bus Feeders, Bloody Elbow Civil War, Season Two
by T.C. Engel on Jan 4, 2012 3:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
well,well,well
I can’t help but notice we have opposing view points on how this fight will end……. can I interest either (or both) of you in a Sig bet?
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 3:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
If they don't want it I'll take some of that sweet sig action.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
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BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Done. Sigs to be named later. Sig Period will be one numbered ufc event. I got MegaReem. And may god have mercy on your soul.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 3:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Spit. Shake.
One minor caveat, I need to keep my BECW affiliation at the bottom of whatever awfulness you saddle me with in the extremely unlikely event that I lose, which I won’t cause you are wrong.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
fair enuff
I get to keep my Royce quote, Cause it fuckin rocks and MegaReem is going to shatter his bones.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 3:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think "far superior competition" is a huge stretch.
JDS hasn’t encountered a striker of Overeem’s pedigree, whereas Reem has fought numerous strikers that are as good or better than JDS. I would say JDS has fought and beaten higher level wrestlers, but that’s about it. I love both fighters and can’t wait for this fight, but I think Dos Santos is going to have a hell of time with Reems striking, especially since Reem won’t have to worry about the takedown.
"My days they are the highway kind, they only come to leave."
JDS hasn’t encountered a striker of Overeem’s pedigree, whereas Reem has fought numerous strikers that are as good or better than JDS.
He fought those strikers in a different sport.
"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
~ Joe Lewis
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
That doesn’t mean you completely throw it out the window.
"I don't know where this term "training camp" in MMA came from. There's no campground. There's no tents." - Nick Diaz
My twitter: @TB_Money
No you can't
But you still have to take it with a grain of salt.
Striking works differently in MMA. That isn’t conjecture, that’s fact.
"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
~ Joe Lewis
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
it works differently when you're fighting someone who goes for takedowns maybe.
JDS doesn’t do that.;
It works differently regardless
See my response to Ak.Death, there are so many more variables in MMA than in K-1, more than just takedowns.
"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
~ Joe Lewis
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
That is insane
The size of the gloves and the clinch game add completely different aspects of striking in MMA.
If Overeem covers up the same way he does in K-1 against JDS, JDS is going to murder him. He will be able to slip punches past his guard like a lot of strikers have been able to do.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
shogun used near that exact guard against machida.
Forearm shield is fine for mma.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 4:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
forearm sheild is fine
peekaboo is not… which is what Reem did in K-1. He hasn’t fought with that kind of gaurd in MMA though, so people acting like he does is kind of silly
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jan 4, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
yes it does...
and to be specific he always gets destroyed by strikers in MMA.. I.E chuck, rua etc…
I devise a plan,
I'm in the trunk as she drives the van,
Aint no disguise, Imma die as a man-- Tupac
He beat those asses
until he gassed. People using LHW Overeem for MMAth are being dumb.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jan 4, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
This is true.
The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.
Proud Member of INEPT: 80% More IntellEgent than y'all, WANKERZ.
Draft #: 69--The magic number.
Exactly right!
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jan 5, 2012 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
Is that really a bad comparison when you consider the fact that most people think JDS vs. Reem will go down like a K-1 fight in the octagon?
"My days they are the highway kind, they only come to leave."
But it won't go down like a K-1 fight in the cage
Because there will be clinching against the fence, if someone gets knocked down there will be follow-up strikes on the ground. There will be opportunities for standing submissions (Overeem’s patented guillotine anyone?) and there is always the threat that one of these guys will actually try to take it to the ground if the standup isn’t working for them.
"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
~ Joe Lewis
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
Point taken
and I do realize that MMA and K-1 striking are totally different. The point I was trying to make was that it’s ridiculous to say that JDS has faced far superior competition, Alistair has 3x as many fights, and has squared off with more dangerous strikers than JDS has. Has Reem fought some guys that had no business in the ring with him over the years? Absolutely. That shouldn’t take away from the fact that he has more experience fighting elite strikers than Dos Santos has, and that is a huge factor in this fight. Not trying to take anything away from JDS resume, he has been unstoppable in the no. 1 MMA organization in the world so far, but he has yet to be matched up with someone whose striking skills are equal or even better than his.
"My days they are the highway kind, they only come to leave."
They will be striking but there is always the chance of a takedown...
Kinda like when chuck unexpectedly took wanderlei down..
I devise a plan,
I'm in the trunk as she drives the van,
Aint no disguise, Imma die as a man-- Tupac
When Overeem faces good strikers in MMA
He normally loses.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
ouch
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
to be fair
It would be after he gassed at LHW. He was beating liddel up then gassed and got dropped. It was kinda his MO
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 3:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I find it hard to believe that his gas tank is better at heavyweight when he is carrying around more muscle.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
It's been
demonstratively better
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
When has he gone into deep waters at Heavyweight
The Werdum fight (where he gassed). That is about the only fight I can remember at heavyweight where we have seen his cardio.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
Paul Buentello
off the top of my head.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
It’s hard to gas in a fight that is a one sided beatdown.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
It wasn't hard for him to gass giving one sided beatdowns as a LHW
which is the point…
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
So your point is that his cardio went from really bad to below average?
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, do you know what the word "better" means?
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jan 4, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Still doesn’t say much about his cardio against high level competition, which he is now facing in the UFC.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
That's not even the conversation we were having.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
Oh yeah, you're right
I might be a little high right now to be fair.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Who said anything about deep waters?
He normally gassed right near the end or after the first round. If he goes three without gasping for air, he’s already better than during his LHW days.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
seriously
People saying this never watched him in Pride.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 4:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
People assume the heavyweight version of Overeem is so much different than his LHW incarnation
And that is simply not true.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
His first five minutes in Pride were glorious almost against everyone he faced. That alone makes his move to become a Hulk at HW a great idea, because his chances of a finish increase.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
by KGNLuc on Jan 4, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I find it hard to believe you have ever cut major weight. Like 20lbs. In 24 hrs. If you had…. Then you wouldn’t say that.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 4:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Damn, maybe I should learn more about betting and make some quick and easy money.
--------
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it ain't easy if you don't know who's gonna win
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by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 4, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
MMA
makes me wish I had one of those Sports Almanac from Back to the Future.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
JDS hasn't faced
a striker as good as Overeem before and it will be an interesting test of the two to see who the best striker in the heavyweight divison is. I think about even odds is right because someone is going to get KO’d in the first 3 rounds and I have no idea which one.
"Serious sport is war minus the shooting."
George Orwell
That's because AO is in a league of his own
when it comes to striking, but JDS has stood, traded and won against Carwin, Roy, Yvel, CC (yeah I know, but still…) and Cain, very competent mma strikers. Didn’t AO get outstruck by…Werdum?
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Uhhhh
Didn’t AO outstike Hari, Aerts (twice), Spong, Texeira and others?
Didn’t AO not get hurt at all by being “outstruck” by Werdum?
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Two different sports with different rules, techniques and equipment
"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy
ummmmm.....
Really?? That’s your answer??
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 3:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Seems like a reasonable answer to me.
Larger gloves and not being worried about a takedown surely count for something?
i
Would agree except he is a grappler that became a kickboxer. Did he look worried against Brock? From my angle he didn’t look worried.
The striking stance of reem is nearly identical in K1 and mma. So are the results: victory at HW. Muay Thai scores throws from the clinch. Its not a one dimensional art like boxing.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 3:41 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
arguing the skills dont translate is ridiculous.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 3:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
The guy that KO’d his last opponent in 20 seconds?
"I don't know where this term "training camp" in MMA came from. There's no campground. There's no tents." - Nick Diaz
My twitter: @TB_Money
thats the one
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 3:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Which totally erases his previous loss right?
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
Word
Although Overeem might be standing up even straighter in this fight, with his hands up in front of his chin.
JDS will not be threatening any takedowns. He doesn’t want to and he wouldn’t be able to.
This means the only significant difference will be in terms of blocking. So, okay there is some difference. I suppose that means we should just throw the fact that Overeem is the reigning K-1 GP champion in the garbage? He’s the frickin reigning GP champion for God’s sake!!
I really feel like the dismissals of Overeem’s skills are based on some kind of perverse wishful thinking.
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
he won the GP more on his durability and muscle mass then his striking dominance.
Trainyard Sleepers: Our Foot Your Ass
by Hardy's in your face on Jan 4, 2012 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
AO was outstruck by Werdum like Anderson Silva was outstruck by Maia… in both cases, pure boredom explains it, IMO.
by Shnak on Jan 4, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Lol, I wasn’t asking a rhetorical question or being a smart ass, I really wanted to know. I didn’t see the fight, but I remember reading here on BE that according to Fightmetric, Werdum outstruck AO.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
werdum
Had a fantasicly boring,yet effective idea. He would come in and tag Reem and pull guard when Reem countered. Reem would back away ref calls stand up. Rinse, repeat.
Judges say if you are on your back you lose. Kinda the story.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 4:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Overeem also hit him pretty hard. But, if you fall down every time someone throws a punch at you, let alone hits you, it’s hard to pick out the actual knockdowns. Overeem landed fewer punches but clearly hit much cleaner and harder.
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
even if they were really good shots ....
Doesn’t matter if you can’t follow to the ground and follow up. I am the only person on the planet that liked that fight I think.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 4:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I enjoyed it
I was curious if Overeem would build the courage to dive into Werdum’s guard, or if Werdum would finally commit to standing and trading. It was an entertaining clash of styles and gameplans.
"I knew I hurt him cause when I throw the elbow he went ugghh" - GSP
LOL, no
Didn’t AO get outstruck by…Werdum?
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
What makes you think Overeem is a better bet now than he was before 141?
Lasnar didn’t put up much of a fight. I think the bookies have this one right and can’t see the odds changing that much.
The bookies only set the original line
The odds change based on where the money goes.
"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
~ Joe Lewis
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
Oh OK. Maybe I shouldn't comment on American betting articles.
It’s different in Europe, where bookies often slash the odds as and when they feel like it.
Anyway I still think the Lesnar fight proves little for Overeem. As Rogan was saying in commentary Overeem had absolutely no respect for Lesnar’s stand up. JDS has awsome stand up.
Yeah, but Reem could have sat back in fear and not used knees or kicks against Brock in fear of the takedown, yet instead he went right at him. Lesner didn’t put up much of a fight because Overeem didn’t let him. You can say Lesner’s heart wasn’t in it as he was thinking retirement, but I still got respect Reem for taking him out in under 3 minutes in the way that he did.
I caught Reem at -130 odds against Lesner, and dropped some on him at +170 against Dos Santos. I agree with this article,…..will get closer as fight gets near.
by Snake_Pliskan on Jan 4, 2012 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
Overeem Will Be Kicking Like Mad
Try and Keep Distance again JDS, especially considering Overeem has been dropped before
probably alternating between that and clinching up.
staying out of that medium range will be key for him.
He may also throw big overhands and hooks
But he would be foolish to sit in boxing range and try to trade tit for tat.
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
I'm supporting JDS on this.
I would like to see the HW strap defended for a while.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
I think Overeem would beat Cain.
Stuff the takedown and then outclass him on the feet. So far when hes fought good strikers he almost got ktfo multiple times by Kongo (but kongo had no clue how to stop the takedown) and ko’d by JDS. I’d count Nog in there but he was zombie Nog in that fight.
Overeem / Cain would be very interesting.
If Cain has learned from his fight with JDS, he’ll go back to his wrestling roots. I think Cain sort of fell in love with his own striking, which wrestlers tend to do once they ko a few people. Brock was supposed to test Overeem’s TDD, but that single leg he tried on Overeem was so half-assed. You won’t see that sort of thing from Cain. Either way, it would make for an awesome fight.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
First off, very few people shoot in the first minute of an MMA fight
Especially when they are fighting a good fighter.
I think Cain can beat up Overeem. If you thought Overeem was tentative against Werdum, he would be just as much so against Cain. Cain has better takedowns than Werdum, and better striking.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Why would Overeem be as tentative as he was against Werdum? He was avoiding the ground because he feared the submission as Werdums only path to victory. He did not fear the takedown or ground control. He’d probably fight Cain like he fought Brock.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
Not really. Part of the reason Overeem was tentative wasn’t because Werdum was flopping, it was because Werdum was shooting. A lot.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Because of the submissions...ffs
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jan 4, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Overeem didn’t commit on his strikes as much as usual because he didn’t want to get taken down. This wouldn’t change if he fought Velasquez.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Yes it will
because getting taken down by Werdum is WAY worse than being taken down by Cain.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
No
Cain Velasquez has an uncanny ability to punch a guy in the face a million times before the guy gets up. With Overeem’s chin and cardio, that is going to hurt him fast. Even if Overeem gets up if Cain takes him down he is going to eat a lot of shots trying to do it.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
Cain Velasquez also had the uncanny ability to let himself get tagged by Kongo every round so hard he had to shoot for the desperation-takedown.
Overeem was tentative against Werdum because he feared Fabricio would school him on the ground. If Werdum locks up a submission it is over. Defending Cains strikes and getting up is certainly not what Overeem wants but the threat of a fight-ending situation is not as dire because he will have much more trust in his skillset to fend off Cains attack. He’d fight him like he fought Brock: very low stance, training TDD as hard as he can before and force a standup-battle. The only difference being that Cain will fare much better standing with AO than Brock did. Ultimately though he would probably lose.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
The Kongo fight was 2 1/2 years ago. Cain is definitely much improved since then.
by chimps on Jan 4, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How can you tell?
From blitzing Nog and Brock? Or by getting stomped by JDS? Cain has certainly improved. But to the point he wouldn’t get clowned again on the feet by the truly elite strikers? Not sure.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
by KGNLuc on Jan 4, 2012 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To me it looked like Cain wanted to test his standup against JDS first.
Right after the fight, nearly everyone thought Cain should have shot right away. Set it up with a couple punches then shoot. But he didn’t. Even Kos criticized his game plan.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
Also, Cain said taking JDS down wasn't going to be the gameplan.
From MMA Mania:
If (the opportunity) is there I’ll take it, but that’s not the game plan going in. He is good in that position, but I’m not afraid to put him in that position. If I don’t get it, I’m going to stand up with him, punch with him and kick with him.
He shoulda straight up wrestled with him.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
Cain was going after JDS' injured knee
JDS talked about it post-fight, the number of kicks that Cain directed at his knee, and he guessed that Cain knew that he could barely walk a week before the fight.
I don’t think Cain forgot his wrestling roots, his game plan was to attack the injured body part in the early part of the fight. Kind of like how Overeem’s plan was knees to Brock’s surgically repaired midsection- that’s some mental shit as well as physical. Get the guy to hesitate and be tentative.
I understand how on paper Reem is the better standup striker and has more tools, and this is obviously a close fight, but speed kills and JDS has the fastest strikes between the two fighters. I think his hands will be able to counter some of Overeem’s kicks, they will be effective in the clinch or off the break, and they will be deadly at his optimal range. I think that will be the difference in the fight.
Reem would’ve thrown these knees in any case. He used to win by throwing mostly knees even in K1 and is able to KO guys with knees to the body. I’d say the same is true for Cain as well. It’s certainly possible he knew about Junior’s injury but leg-kicking JDS was a good idea in any case.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
Yeah, whether he knew about the injury or not, leg kicks made sense. It’s just he should have shot as well. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
Well in this case it’s a bit more since everybody knew wrestling JDS was the smart move. I guess everybody thought he’d fare much better standing against Junior though. That he got blown out like that was a surprise.
Still don’t know how healthy he was, too.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
Dos Santos should be the favorite but in a fight with striker vs striker, anything can happen
by MMA214 on Jan 4, 2012 2:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Reem will be a lot stronger unless JDS goes horsemeat for a while here. Not sure that matters outside round 1.
We’ve seen both of them get tired. Who knows.
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
JDS doesn't have bad cardio, especially for a HW
Cigano has won every round he’s fought in the UFC. He slowed down a little after using Roy Nelson as a punching bag for two rounds, but he didn’t look gassed at all. Same with the Carwin fight. I’ll take JDS’s quickness and cardio over Reem’s and I’ll definitely take JDS in a longer fight, if that’s how it plays out.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
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by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
This meme needs to die
He landed more strikes on Nelson in round 3 than he did in round 1 and took Carwin down twice in round 3.
JDS’ cardio is not bad nor has he ever been really tired.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Jan 4, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Never said his cardio was bad
I said we’ve seen him tired, which is true. He kept his composure and stuck to his gameplan, he didn’t try anything crazy to try and end it quickly or wilt. Also most of the reason he landed more punches in round 3 against Nelson is because Roy was just walking straight at JDS and threw the same punch over and over.
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
Are you serious
Someone threw more punches than Roy Nelson in a 3rd round and THAT’S how you want to measure if they got tired or not?!
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
Does that matter?
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
SS said that in the third round, Junior landed more strikes on Roy than he did in the first. I would assume that’s evidence that Junior wasn’t gassing so hard his offense was stifled.
Whether you take that to mean Roy’s defense crumbled by round 3 or Junior’s offense wasn’t diminished is up to you. I assumed the latter.
I rarely tweet
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down
Ahhh, I get it
It still seems like an insane barometer, but it makes a lot more sense now.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
Absolutely
and he certainly outclasses Reem in that aspect.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
Man idk
JDS is a fucking brute as well. I’m not so sure that AO will be a LOT stronger, maybe by a bit though.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
JDS is a big boy, and I don't think the strength difference is going to be all that pronounced
or important. Overeem should have the advantage if he gets in the clinch, but ultimately they’re each plenty strong enough to put the other to sleep.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think you guys know how Overeem trains
He’s extremely strong for a person his size.
Watch his training videos. He works out with Dutch strongman. That’s the elite level in strength training.
I’ve seen him deadlift nearly 700lbs with ease. His functional strength really seems to be off the charts for a 260lbs combat athlete. He’s more comparable to an elite NFL defensive lineman.
"I'm ready for fight. If I'm win, no win. I don't know. But, I'm ready for fight. This is my working[shrugs shoulders]" - Anderson Silva
"You'll get Lil Wayne in woman pants and like it!" - Krimson
by TheFilt on Jan 4, 2012 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I doubt there’ll be a better bet than Nate Diaz at 2-1 to beat Cerrone for a whie, but Overeem comes close at those odds. JDS is a great guy, but he stood and teed off for 15 minutes on both Carwin and Nelson and didn’t look like getting a stoppage, an elite pro boxer or K1 striker like Overeem would have finished both fights.
JDS could clip Alistair on the chin, but other than that i see Overeem taking this one.
Just to increase my credibility with you guys slightly (from like 0% to 0.1%), I was most definitely telling people to bet on Diaz and Hettes at 141.
"I don't know where this term "training camp" in MMA came from. There's no campground. There's no tents." - Nick Diaz
My twitter: @TB_Money
Bet on Hettes on PG, now I’m really wishing I did for real.
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by T.C. Engel on Jan 4, 2012 3:17 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Nah, he means Cerrone. He’s referring to Nate Diaz at UFC 141.
"I don't know where this term "training camp" in MMA came from. There's no campground. There's no tents." - Nick Diaz
My twitter: @TB_Money
Reem's chin is nowhere near as good as Nelson or Carwin.
Seriously, if JDS can connect with one of those uppercuts or power hooks, Reem is out. I think Reem will fight very smart and respect JDS’ power however. He’ll make it very tough for JDS to hit him.
by Rob Young on Jan 4, 2012 2:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Badr Hari hit Reem pretty hard in 2010
He scored some light knockdowns, but it wasn’t lights out.
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t know what would’ve happened if Badr had been allowed to follow up with strikes on the ground though.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
a guillotine from guard
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
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by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 4:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Carwin allegedly had decent standup and he got made to look like a fool. Nelson is just damn near impossible to kfto. I love Ubereem but if he gets caught with that same punch that he hit Cain with he’s not dropping to the floor and staring back at JDS, he’s falling face first and not waking up for the next 3 mins.
by TheDreadedMarco on Jan 4, 2012 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Carwin allegedly had decent standup
What?
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jan 4, 2012 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Carwin and Nelson both have very good chins.
Overeem, by comparison, has suffered almost as many KOs between kickboxing and MMA as JDS has fights. Even the nastiest KO artists on the planet don’t score them in every fight. I have no question that JDS has the power to KO Overeem. Of course Overeem has the power to KO Cigano too, which makes the fight interesting, but I’m tired of hearing how the great K-1 master is going to stroll in and tapdance all over the reigning UFC Champ’s head. JDS has been in against a much higher caliber of competition, has much more consistent results, is faster, has better hands and better cardio than Overeem. Reem has better kicks and knees, and a better clinch. It’s a great style matchup and a close fight, but I think JDS is getting the correct odds here.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
What he said^^
JDS’s speed and ability to hit HARD will mean lights out for Overeem.
Brought to you by the letters K, O and JDS…
This
Man, I just love to hear a voice of reason.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
AO is good but the wheels tend to fall off the wagon when things don’t go exactly as planned.
I got yogurt meat-loaf spread all over my ass
stick my weiner in two buns and then give it the gas
sour cream from my spleen into Levi jeans
gonna burst the seams with my re-fried beans!
They both have wins over recent UFC champs(Brock and Cain) and Werdum.
I wouldn’t say JDS has faced a much higher caliber of fighter. He’s just faced more upper echelon HW’s.
"I'm ready for fight. If I'm win, no win. I don't know. But, I'm ready for fight. This is my working[shrugs shoulders]" - Anderson Silva
"You'll get Lil Wayne in woman pants and like it!" - Krimson
I wouldn’t say JDS has faced a much higher caliber of fighter. He’s just faced more upper echelon HW’s.
Then what does it mean?
by TheDreadedMarco on Jan 4, 2012 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
That too
He also dominated Vitor at 205 twice, finishing him once.
What I meant was JDS hasn’t really faced a much better quality of fighter, as I honestly believe that Werdum and Brock are(was?) at the top end of the HW division, but Junior has faced a greater number of top tier HW’s.
"I'm ready for fight. If I'm win, no win. I don't know. But, I'm ready for fight. This is my working[shrugs shoulders]" - Anderson Silva
"You'll get Lil Wayne in woman pants and like it!" - Krimson
It's honestly a very tough fight for Alistair.
He’s had alot of trouble with aggressive sluggers in the past. Hari blew him out of the friggin water. Spong (who is a blown up light heavyweight at the most) was giving him the business before the extra weight tired him out. Sergei, Chuck, Rogerio, & Bobby Hoffman all destroyed Reem with standing punches.
I’m a big Overeem fan, and a big JDS fan, but I give Junior the style advantage. Reem doesn’t work off the jab like Junior does, preferring to just shell up and walk the opponent into the fence/ corner and unload with compact power shots and concise combos. But I think he’ll have trouble doing that when he’s going to be walking into Junior’s jabs and power punches.
"God loves violence... Why else would there be so much of it? It's in us. It's what we are. We wage war, we burn sacrifices, and pillage and plunder and tear at the flesh of our brothers. And why? Because God gave us violence to wage in his honor... There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?"
- Warden of Ashecliffe Hospital
by ElliotMatheny on Jan 4, 2012 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
I see another 1 minute victory for JDS.
He’s my man crush. No homo, but… well a little.
JDS has a ton of quality wins under his belt
His last seven fights are:
Werdum, Struve, Cro Cop, Yvel, Gonzaga (all finished), Nelson, Carwin, Cain.
That is nuts. I am not sure there is another MMA HW out there with a list of wins like that, outside of maybe fedor, mir, or maybe big nog. cain and brock only have about 4 quality wins.
Having said that – he is just not a big heavyweight. Despite all he has accomplished, I have trouble really believing in him. I thought he would lose to Cain. AO will be a steep test, as will be Mir. But if he gets through those fights … man. You’re talking HW GOAT right there.
The winner of Cormier - Barnett, really
Though I think either one of them would make credible challengers if they can pick up a top 5 win.
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jan 4, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
Definitely the best active resume
If he wins the upcoming fights, he might have the best record ever.
But, I don’t understand why so many writers see JDS as the favorite against Overeem. Sure, Overeem hasn’t beaten the fighers that JDS has, but that has little to do with how they match up. Overeem is the worst possible matchup for JDS.
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
He's the only one with better kickboxing
I’m not saying JDS can’t win. I’m just saying I don’t understand why he would be favored. Overeem has proven that he can take shots in K-1. I also think he’s proven that he’s never without weapons and that those weapons are probably the most powerful in the business.
JDS beat carwin and cro cop by fighting in such a way that they weren’t able to do anything effective against him. I don’t see how he could do that to Overeem.
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
out of his HW fights...
who did you expect to touch his chin? Oh- and his Kharitonov KO loss was his first fight as a HW. If he was rocked by Goodrich, Hunt, Sylvester, Thomspson, Fujita, etc., then we wouldn’t even be having a discussion about his chances in this fight.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:16 PM EST up reply actions
I don't get it . . .
He has been hit very hard by Badr Hari, Gokhan Saki, tyrone Spong and others. It did very little damage to him.
You can talk all you want about how the striking doesn’t translate exactly, but that has nothing to do with getting hit hard and reacting to it.
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
Saki's spinning heel kick should have been a knockdown...
and he was crippled. He fell flat on his face in the first knockdown from Hari in their 2nd fight. Sponge rocked him though he weighed about 50 lbs less…. a guys chin doesn’t just get better with muscles, and all of the examples you cited were K-1…different story with the smaller gloves.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Obviously a guy's chin DOES get better with something AO has
You completely distort every event you describe. Overeem did not fall on his face against Hari. Saki’s heel kick put Overeem on his butt, sitting up and he popped up instantly. Spong did not rock him seriously at any point in their 3 round fight.
Instead, Overeem took heavy shots from all of those guys without it doing that much damage to him, considering what he was hit with.
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
How can you say that his chances of being KO'd by elite HW MMA fighters...
is diminished based on the K-1 evidence? Rewatch the Hari fight right now (I just watched it last night) and watch the first knockdown. What do you call putting someone on their butt due to the force of a strike, even if they recover quickly? Oh yeah….that’s a knockdown. And you added the qualifier “seriously” to the Spong reference- I only said that he was rocked, and he was… he was forced to regain his balance along the ropes as Spong fired unanswered hooks. Granted, he survived it, and was never in any danger of losing the fights, but what you see as ironclad evidence that Reem’s chin is reborn, I’m still seeing evidence that it’s a liability. We haven’t seen him hit by a top-tier MMA fighter at HW yet… using K-1 fights to prove a point is a fruitless endeavor.
Oh- and your assessment of small vs. large gloves is, er, let’s just say distorted.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Well
I guess we’re not going to interpret these things the same way.
I just watched the Hari knockdown about ten times in a row. Hari hits him and then they get tangled for half a second and when they sort of come loose, Overeem falls down forward. It’s not exactly a trip, but Overeem does not fall down on his face in a daze.
Why would using K-1 fights to prove a fighter’s ability to take a shot be a fruitless endeavor? Do you just mean that, as a matter of fact, Overeem’s particular history in K-1 does not prove this? or, do you mean that it could not prove it no matter what, because, you know, k-1 is different and stuff?
If it’s the second thing you’re claiming, I think that’s crazy.
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
And I'm not denying that Sakhi knocked him down
I’m only saying that, given the kind of strike that was, Overeem took it really well.
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn’t it proven that the smaller gloves may have a bit less padding and smaller area of effect but that is offset by the higher weight of the bigger gloves so that in the end, the impact they make on the target if almost identical in terms of KO-potenital? I seem to remember a science-studi from some thai-university somebody linked to once.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
by KGNLuc on Jan 4, 2012 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I remember that too
and it REALLY counter-intuitive. I can’t find it again, though.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
Is it? I dunno if you ever fought with the bigger gloves but you it’s not like you’re slamming big cushions into your opponent. You can clearly feel the impact area increase and decrease when turning your hand so that you land with the approproiate two or three knuckles of your hand (or whatever, depending on the strike). So IMO it’s not that hard to believe.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
I've boxed
not a lot, but I sparred for a few years as a teenager. I always felt I hit people harder, and did more damage, in fistfights.
I got yogurt meat-loaf spread all over my ass
stick my weiner in two buns and then give it the gas
sour cream from my spleen into Levi jeans
gonna burst the seams with my re-fried beans!
I’ve only hit the bag barehanded. You feel the impact more immediately in your hand and wrist. But in terms of how the bag reacts to the force, not sure if there was a difference.
Plus, maybe it’s of no consequence if we’re arguing KO-potential anyway because a KO is more about the momentum imparted than about concentrating power in one spot as it would be for breaking bones or cutting, I suppose?
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
You’re right on that… In a fistfight you wouldn’t really care about scoring a KO. The larger glove may in fact force the brain to move more inside the skull. impact of your brain against the back of your skull and the subsequent rebound is what would cause loss of consciousness I believe.
I got yogurt meat-loaf spread all over my ass
stick my weiner in two buns and then give it the gas
sour cream from my spleen into Levi jeans
gonna burst the seams with my re-fried beans!
Yeah. As I said, the study put it at about even. The impulse transmitted from glove / hand to the head relies on the mass and the speed. The smaller gloves are quicker, the bigger gloves are heavier and in the end, it equals out mostly. Area of impact is not as important, unless we’re talking skull-fracture, I guess. Been a while since I read into this stuff though.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
uh...
Overeem’s chin is HIGHLY suspect.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Then what's James Thompson'ss excuse?
Neck muscle does not automatically equal a good chin, and Hari destroyed him with those neck muscles. Granted, getting beaten by Badr is no shameful act, but don’t you think that JDS with 4 oz. gloves poses at least that big a threat?
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
destroyed???
Com’mon son. That second" knock down" was no a mma style knock down. He wasn’t rocked, he just got knocked off balance and into the ropes. Let’s not act like it was some colossal destruction inflicted upon him.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
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by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 3:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yes
Also, I know people talk about the danger of 4oz gloves but being hit by a larger object (bigger gloves) has MORE impact. It’s harder to block with smaller gloves but the momentum of the strike is less.
by Philosophy Pro on Jan 4, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
The big gloves mass is greater...
but it has less velocity. It’s like using a snowshoe vs. a high heel on a frozen lake- less surface area = more concentrated force.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
It wasn't an MMA style knockdown...
because it wasn’t MMA. If it was, then Hari would’ve been pounding Overeem in the corner while he still had tweety birds flying around his head. He got knocked down (per K-1 rules) 3 times in less than 3 minutes. I’d say that was a destruction and I’m a Reem fan. He was never even in that fight. How bout this- it was a “domination.”
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
my bad
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
fair but he blocked
The kick that knocked him against the ropes. It was just the force that pushed him back.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 4:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Beating Struve, Mirko, Gilbert Yvel, and Gonzaga is nuts?
Whatever you say.
"My days they are the highway kind, they only come to leave."
heavyweight is a shallow pool dude
we were treated to ben rothwell v. mark hunt on the main card of a ppv recently.
I guess Rogers and Duffee are world beaters…
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn’t Rogers was Top-10ish around the time of that fight? I can’t remember the rankings for Struve, CC, Yvel, or Gonzaga but I can’t see any of them being top 10 except Gonzaga, maybe.
"I knew I hurt him cause when I throw the elbow he went ugghh" - GSP
Rogers was ranked as number 10 when he fought Fedor.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
Kind of crazy how the pendulum has swung back towards strikers at heavyweight
It seems like not that long ago Brock, Carwin and Cain were making a case that you had to have a wrestling background to be successful at heavyweight. Now it looks like whoever wins this has the chance to hold the title for awhile with no wrestling background at all.
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jan 4, 2012 3:06 PM EST reply actions
I think that whichever guy wins this...
loses to Cain when they fight.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
Completely possible
I hope that last fight can be chalked up to injury and time off and he gets back to 100% soon. I don’t know if he can be champion again, but I like the division better with him in top form.
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jan 4, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
That fight told us nothing about who would win the next one.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, the joy of heavyweights
Everyone punch has a chance of ending the fight, and the better fighter doesn’t always win.
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jan 4, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
fixed
Ah, the joy ofheavyweightsMMA
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
True
But more true at heavyweight than anywhere else.
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jan 4, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
I don’t see Dominic Cruz getting taken out of the top spot anytime soon.
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by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 3:55 PM EST up reply actions
Not giving Faber a chance to edge him out?
"I knew I hurt him cause when I throw the elbow he went ugghh" - GSP
I dunno
Cruz’s high volume style is really MMA judging friendly, and he’s very hard to take down. I like Faber a lot, but I think we’ll see a similar result if they fight again.
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by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think on any given night, Cain can lose pretty easy to either of those guys
If he fought them both 10 times I’d expect him to take six, maybe seven each, but I think we’ve now seen that powerful, accurate strikers present a very real issue for Cain, especially if he can’t put them on the ground right away.
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by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Man I just don't know.
The JDS/Cain fight is pretty much what I had envisioned and saying prior to them being locked in the cage. JDS is just a fucking tank. I just couldn’t and still can’t see Cain beating JDS, what’s weird is that I can see Cain beating AO. I can even see Mir beating AO. Outside of Overeem, I really can’t see any hw beating JDS atm…at least not any current UFC hw, I’m not too familiar with most of the Strikeforce hws though.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Great HW distance fight.
Far out, or close in, advantage Reem; punching distance, advantage JDS. Wrestling, cardio and chin I give to JDS. Submissions I give to Reem just because we have empirical evidence of his game, but would anyone be surprised if JDS ended up showing some great submission acumen? Either way, don’t see how this fight is boring My early lean is JDS TKo’ing Reem with his hands, but an AO TKO would not surprise me in the least.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:09 PM EST reply actions
K1 world grand prix winning striker vs. Guy who only uses punches and won’t look for/ get any takedowns…. My money is on the guy with less tools to win…
In all seriousness, free money on reem.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
How’d the kickboxing vs. boxing thing work out for Cerrone? With guys as skilled at their craft as these 2 are, I don’t see any easy causal relationships (like the one you proposed) at play here.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
and puts dudes to sleep after the 10th.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
It's a valid comparison
JDS is the better conventional boxer and AO is the better kickboxer (as was/is the case with Diaz and Cerrone). Just knowing how to throw kicks does not automatically mean that you’re going to win the striking matchup, especially if JDS controls distance with his superior speed and movement.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
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by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
agreed.
though I have to say that I was extremely impressed with Overeem’s quickness against Lesnar. He darted in and out amazingly fast, though he did have the speed/footwork advantage over Brock, which he will not against JDS.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Comparison is completely invalid. Overeem is the much better kickboxer, and Diaz and JDS styles are completely parallel. Diaz won because his swarming non stop pressure style overwhelmed Cerrone. I can 100% guarantee you JDS isn’t going to employ that strategy. He’s going to try and methodically pick Reem apart or end his night with a single shot.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
so the only way for a boxer to beat a superior kickboxer is with a Diaz style?
No, it comes through controlling distance through footwork so that you make it a battle of hands. Whether that’s through constantly moving forward like Diaz, or staying at your hands distance without drifting into his kicking distance or the clinch, it’s the same ends. JDS is imminently capable of doing that to Overeem.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
You’re terribly good at putting words in peoples mouth’s, you should work for fox. My argument summarized: JDS is going to be forced into having a technical striking match with Overeem, in which he has less chance to win than he does to lose. Reading comprehension bro.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Rational thought, broseph.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Completely irrational to think Overeem takes this one, you’re right. Completely rational to misread everything I post and act as if you know what my argument is when you have no clue.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Use your words, Hendo...
it’ll help give all of us a clue.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
Scroll up, problem solved.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
How about...
poop on your face, problem solved?
In all seriousness though, why didn’t you join the War this season?
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
ugh. I really wanted to. I did pretty well last season. But as I said in the thread, my pick em life was interfering with my MMA fan life. It all hit me when I found myself rooting for Koscheck to KO Hughes (because I bet on that happening). After the fight I just thought to myself “wtf is this pick em tournament doing to me?” and decided that enjoying the sport is more important than trying to be the most right.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
I know what you mean.
I’m in too deep though… and it makes me give a shit about fights like Hettes-Phan. Win-lose situation.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:52 PM EST up reply actions
True. It’s got ups and downs. But it turned my main event jitters from “OMG someone’s about to get hurt!” to “OMG i’m almost at 90 points!” and I didn’t appreciate that.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Not joining pick em this year was the first Intelligent/responsible decision I’ve made in years.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Striking noob here -- but I'm not sure it is valid
Diaz style works well at LW/WW, but I don’t think it scales up well with weight, when the other guy’s puncher’s chance increases rapidly. Cerrone planted Nate with a kick to the face IIRC — if that happened at HW it would likely end in a KO/TKO.
The fox knows many tricks; and the hedgehog only one; but that is the best one of all.
IMO if a headkick hits clean, it’s game over at almost any weight. If it doesn’t, in most cases it wasn’t thrown right or defended a bit(off balance, too little hip-movement, half-blocked, guy was moving away with the kick etc).
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
Dude, most heavyweights can’t even throw a leg kick.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
Now I feel stupid. I completely forgot that Cerrone was a k1 GP champion and that JDS could go five rounds without getting tired.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions
And Overeem can go 5 rounds without getting tired?
I’m an Overeem fan hoping he wins, but your dismissal of JDS based purely on striking credentials is just ignorant.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ignorant? you’re the one assuming I said that when I never did. My point is JDS won’t be able to keep that level of pressure on Overeem for more than a half a round. Please make sure you’re not putting words in peoples mouth’s when calling them ignorant.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
K1 world grand prix winning striker vs. Guy who only uses punches and won’t look for/ get any takedowns…. My money is on the guy with less tools to win…
In all seriousness, free money on reem.
You’re only using only striking credentials as evidence that Reem’s is an easy winner here. No mention of chin or cardio, footwork or speed, shit- not even striking defence or efficiency. If you want to elaborate, feel free, but based on the words you’ve already written, I stand by my statement.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
JDH picking JDS, i’m calling bias. Seriously, you make some great points, but i’m going to give Reem the benefit of the doubt regarding his stamina at heavyweight, i think 205 was an unnatural weight for a man of Overeems proportions, a bit like a malnourished teenaged Manny Pacquiao fighting at 112.
I think the clinch will be where Overeem takes advantage and does the damage to win the fight, but you know your stuff homie!
I'm picking Reem to win the fight.
I just have a problem with anyone saying that this fight is “easy money” or a cakewalk for Reem. JDS has earned more respect than that.
I’m a big AO fan, but his cardio in the Werdum fight scared the shit out of me. Hopefully this is a purely standup fight, in which I have much more faith in AO’s cardio.
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by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 4, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
I think you’re misinterpreting “easy money”. If you really think the reem is going to win, and he’s a 2 to 1 underdog, then your odds say it’s easy money. Not that you think JDS has no chance, just that the betting odds are completely astray from the actual fight odds.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
In all honesty though
JDS doesn’t really need to go nonstop, full-pressure for 25 minutes…because usually he only needs a round or two.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
I think Alistair will be fine as long as he keeps his damn hands up.
However, I don’t think he felt Lesnar was a stand-up threat and was also waiting to defend the takedown. I think he’ll be more covered and protected with JDS.
If I was Alistair, I’d keep JDS at bay with kicks, work in the clinch if he got close and take him down if things started going awry standing. Overeem does have the size advantage and BJJ chops to do fairly well on the ground.
But, this is all suspect if Overeem strokes his ego and just decides to stand the whole time.
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"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
Someone doesn’t understand what a joke is, apparently.
"I don't know where this term "training camp" in MMA came from. There's no campground. There's no tents." - Nick Diaz
My twitter: @TB_Money
Overeem takes this
Better stand up striking. In the clinch JDS will eat nothing but knees, so there goes TD attempts. This will be a stand up fight in which Overeem will be able to control the pace. And the kicks…. JDS is way to focused on being a straight up boxer.
Overeem will get the KO in rd 3.
by Ricardo Arguello on Jan 4, 2012 3:36 PM EST reply actions
If it get's to round 3 the only person who will have enough energy to get a KO is JDS
I need to find some comparison pics but I think JDS has more of natural frame for heavyweight and isn’t carrying as much hors…ahem..muscle.
JDS is a better striker than Overeem. JDS has a good chin and solid cardio, Overeem has a suspect chin and below average cardio.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 3:44 PM EST up reply actions
Last time I checked Roy Nelson hits pretty hard.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 3:49 PM EST up reply actions
*sigh
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
If shane carwin swings at you and misses, you chin just got tested.
"UFC is so gay, pride is awesome!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jan 4, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
really?
He’s been hit in the face by:
-CroCop (before he fell off the face of the planet),
-Shane Carwin, who had finished all but one of his previous fights by first round KO (and was a minor officiating decision away from finishing ALL of his previous fights by first round KO).
-Cain Velasquez, who has finished 8 of is 9 fights by KO and was UFC champ, AND
- Roy Nelson, who despite his belly has 9 KO wins in 16 fights.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
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by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
If you are going to discredit all of Juniors wins
Then you can easily do the same for Overeem, who is a huge can crusher.
by discoandherpes on Jan 4, 2012 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Even if you were right about their overall talent (which you aren't)
It doesn’t make them hit any less hard. The four guys I mentioned account for close to 40 HW knockouts, and they all hit JDS without significantly damaging him. To say his chin hasn’t been tested is ridiculous. JDS has certainly been hit by better HWs wearing 4oz gloves than Overeem has, and it isn’t even close.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
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by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
When did Cain land any significant strikes to JDS chin?
because I’m not remembering that, at all.
"My days they are the highway kind, they only come to leave."
Fightmetric says Cain landed 7-of-14 significant strikes in their fight
which lasted only a little over a minute. I’m assuming some of those are leg kicks, but I am pretty sure he touched JDS’s chin at least once. Either way, its a nitpicky and pointless thing to argue about. The other three guys I mentioned all landed cleanly several times. If Junior’s chin hasn’t been tested, nobody’s has.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
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by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
Wasn’t trying to nitpick, sorry. I appreciate your input on this site, you seem like one of the more well-informed posters. I just felt like Cain wasn’t a good example of someone who tested JDS chin.
"My days they are the highway kind, they only come to leave."
It's all good - and its a fair argument about Cain
I just think a lot of the recurring questions about JDS like cardio, chin and TDD are not the big mysteries that people make them out to be.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
by Dave Strummer on Jan 4, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
shucked
Off those carwin td’s like it was nothing….
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 4:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Junior ate
ROY’S OVERHAND RIGHT! And stayed awake. Point proven. Jds gots chin.
MegaReem stayed awake through fights with hari,bojansky,aerts, sponge,saki, texteria, and more. Chin? Like a chinese phone book my friend.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 4, 2012 4:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
the longer the fight goes on, the more kicks JDS will be eating which will kill his cardio. I think thatll happen by RD 3. I think Overeem isnt going to be rushing anything in their fight. He’s going to pick his shots and kicks and they’ll pretty much all be power shots. Every picked shhot is gonna drain JDS, even if he blocks them. Thats what Overeem basically has going as his biggest advantage, the strength.
by Ricardo Arguello on Jan 4, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
What you just said applies to both. You think Overeem’s strength will remain the same through out the fight? JDS has better cardio, they’ll both be taking shots. I can’t see too many scenarios where JDS gasses first.
throughout the fight, no. Thats why I say Rd 3. If it goes further, JDS could get the better of Overeem. And like I said, Overeem isnt going to be bull rushing or over exerting himself. I think he needs to pick his shots carefully to wear JDS down.
scenario where JDS losses steam: Overeem landing solid body kicks and knees
by Ricardo Arguello on Jan 4, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly, I like JDS' style more
He’s faster with his hands and fights at a higher volume, with tremendous power. Reem is slower and less busy, more menacing and deadly powerful, with his hands, shins and knees. Either one of the guys could come out, land one strike, and go home with a knock out win. Who knows, I’ll take the dog.
Police have mounted a Phuket-wide hunt
JDS couldn't finish Carwin and Nelson
both of whom have iron chins. I can’t find a gif of him dropping Nelson, but I can’t see Overeem taking these hits.
JDS also took a good hook from Carwin to the chin, so he can take a hit (at least as far as he has allowed it).
by rockyman500 on Jan 5, 2012 12:20 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
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