How Will Georges St. Pierre Respond to the New Welterweight Landscape?
by David Castillo on Jan 3, 2012 10:05 AM EST
in UFC Editorial
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Interim titles typically carry less weight than "the real thing". They are 12 pound, gold-rimmed tourniquets for all intents and purposes. But I'm not sure that's the truth about the interim title that will be stamped on either Nick Diaz or Carlos Condit at UFC 143.
Georges St. Pierre is currently recovering from an ACL injury. It's the kind of injury that is not only not easy to recover from, but it's precisely the kind of injury that could hinder the most potent offense of GSP's: his famous double leg (or kneetap, take your pick).
Meanwhile, the WW division is catching up with him. If the MMA world were to give "razzies", it's strange to think GSP might sit high on that list. He was certainly the most disappointing. No, it's not his fault that he got injured. But he only fought once in 2011, and it was an absolutely stinker.
Even now, I'm not really sure how to unpack that fight. For me, his performance will never affect his standing in the rankings, nor do I think less of him as a pound for pound great. But UFC 129 put all of his flaws on display. Against Jake Shields, who was overmatched, we saw GSP's "risk averse" style that his critics have taken issue with. We saw his psychological frailty as he verbally panicked in response to being poked in the eye. We even saw (I'd argue) his limitations as a fighter: with boxing that still feels a little rudimentary, Shields landed entirely too many jabs for a guy that is often outright mocked for his striking game.
And all of that combined to create an even worse potential disaster: losing the fight. Nelson Hamilton and Richard Bertrand scored rounds 4 and 5 for Shields. One more round of Jake Shields landing that uncomfortable jab of his, and we'd have a new WW champion. Are those scores ridiculous? Absolutely. But the fact that GSP cut it so close feels like an indictment of his performance.
Meanwhile, the WW landscape has changed. Former contenders such as Thiago Alves, Jon Fitch, Josh Koscheck, and B.J Penn have been discarded. In their place sit Nick Diaz, Carlos Condit, Jake Ellenberger, and Johny Hendricks.
The interesting difference between the two groups is that the latter group pose different threats. Ellenberger and Hendricks are not upgrades of Koscheck and Fitch per se, but if not better athletes than Fitch, they are certainly quicker. Neither is a plodder like Fitch, and both are a little more dynamic than Koscheck. On the other end, Diaz and Condit possess the type of rugged, violent pressure you might expect to rattle GSP in a five round fight.
Readers and fans joke everytime a former contender to GSP's title gets destroyed that "GSP is exposed!". While not the truth on its own, it does serve as a reflection of a WW division catching up with GSP. The division is clearly surpassing its former contenders. Will the division surpass its champion too? Make your prediction below.
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The Next Champ is Coming Staight out of Stockton!
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 3, 2012 10:09 AM EST via mobile reply actions 10 recs
The next UFC champ is going to be a former prison inmate?
Writer for Blistered Thumbs
Part of Team Luke Thomas' Beard (LTB)
You may like Diaz, but Brock actually won a title that mattered.
Follow @TheCynicsCorner
by MicahtheCynic on Jan 3, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Nah
He means GSP coming straight out of Stockton driving a big boring minivan leaving a wake of dominated Diaz siblings.
Being chased by an Oldsmobile Cutlass containing a boxing coach with thick forearms and a very punchable-to-the-face BJJ trainer.
not your best
They're coming to get you Barbara
by gxc on Jan 3, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
To your own house.
Because Diaz isn’t going to beat GSP.
Writer for Blistered Thumbs
Part of Team Luke Thomas' Beard (LTB)
You may like Diaz, but Brock actually won a title that mattered.
Follow @TheCynicsCorner
by MicahtheCynic on Jan 3, 2012 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
It'll be interesting to see if Diaz/ Condit
plays out similar to “Diet Diaz” vs. Cerrone. The matchup is certainly similar.
"God loves violence... Why else would there be so much of it? It's in us. It's what we are. We wage war, we burn sacrifices, and pillage and plunder and tear at the flesh of our brothers. And why? Because God gave us violence to wage in his honor... There's no moral order at all. There's just this: can my violence conquer yours?"
- Warden of Ashecliffe Hospital
by ElliotMatheny on Jan 3, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
This is ridiculous. GSP has done absolutely nothing, or more correctly, nobody has ever done anything to GSP that would make you think anybody’s catching up with him. Let’s wait until he even comes close to lose a fight before proclaiming his time as WW champion is done.
i don't buy it
his “exposure” is based on one poor performance that highlighted his perceived weakness that have been out there since the first Serra fight. in that time he has still managed to dominate the WW landscape. he will do as he’s done for a long time. gameplan, maintain his cardio and diffuse the problems each fighter presents by fighting to his opponents weakness.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
I think it was a joke.
I may be wrong, and your response was insightful but I believe it was sarcasm
"Here we are with Seraldo Babalu, you did an awesome job, saw why you’re a black belt in jiu-jitsu, getting an awesome submission there, I want to tell me what you see, let’s go ahead and see by the fight, what you saw, in the ring." - Tito (the Head) Ortiz - Great Commentator, or Greatest Commentator.
"GSP is me."
by El Pablo Diablo on Jan 3, 2012 11:50 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
God, i hope so.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
I also hope so
For the sake of sanity
"Here we are with Seraldo Babalu, you did an awesome job, saw why you’re a black belt in jiu-jitsu, getting an awesome submission there, I want to tell me what you see, let’s go ahead and see by the fight, what you saw, in the ring." - Tito (the Head) Ortiz - Great Commentator, or Greatest Commentator.
"GSP is me."
by El Pablo Diablo on Jan 3, 2012 12:08 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
sanity
is greatly overrated.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
except being subbed by hughes, unable to complete simple subs,battered by Penn, losing two rounds of.striking to shields and KOed by Serra
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 3, 2012 10:18 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Since the Serra KO he has look invincible.
The Penn fight was before that. The second Penn fight wasn’t even close. And Shields stabbed him in the eye multiple times.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
he said "ever"
And gsp complained of 0 eye pokes during that fight. A poke is a much sharper pain than a punch. It’s hard to say what did it. I think it was most likely a punch to the eye since gsp never complained of an eye poke.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 3, 2012 10:28 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
WTF is your point?
He couldn’t see, and that’s all that matters. Blood and other debris clouded his anterior chamber and it was non-functional. No, you do not always feel a sharp pain from an eye poke, as Jake’s fingers could have done the same internal damage through GSP’s eye lid.
These were Jake’s striking stats in the first three rounds:
1 for 27 power head shots
13 for 145 head jabs
Oh yeah, look how bad GSP’s striking defense is. It’s only been the best in the entire fucking UFC in the 34 rounds before that poke. Everything Shields landed in the two rounds he “won” was due to GSP not being able to see.
lol, a Diaz fan trying to criticize GSP’s striking defense…
by paythefighters on Jan 3, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
LOL battered by Penn? If by battered you mean being cut up by some heavy shots in the first round (shots that didnt appear to remotely rock GSP in any meaningful way) and then Penn landing pretty much zero strikes of significance in the 2nd and 3rd round………if thats what you mean by battered, then yes, by all means, Penn battered GSP.
god, you're pathetic
You’re still clinging onto those cherry picked moments?
Does Werdum’s BJJ suck because he was “unable to complete a simple sub” on Magalhaes?
Does Penn’s BJJ suck because he used the wrong grip in mission control against GSP? That was an absurdly amateur mistake.
You’re seriously fishing back to the Serra KO ten fights ago, BJ fight (which he came back from and won anyway) from twelve fights ago, and Hughes fight from 17 fucking fights ago? Three opponents he brutally dominated in rematches?
I really, REALLY hope Diaz wins enough fights to face GSP, just so I can see your reaction when GSP destroys him, even in the standup.
by paythefighters on Jan 3, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Lol at gsp destroying Diaz standing
The MOST RECENT gsp fight saw him get punched up by jake shields, who btw struggled against every bully he fought on bully beatdown in the kickboxing round lol. Gsp is going to out strike nick Diaz? Lol the same gsp who got punched up by jake shields??? Yeah OK lol nobody has to look back any further than st. Pierre’s last fight to see the huge chinkin his armor, just sayin.
Yeah, until someone shows otherwise, gonna have to defer to the champ.
Honestly, the only ways I see GSP not being champ in 2012 are: 1) Technicality. He gets stripped of the title if he doesn’t return in 2012. 2) He gets caught like Fitch did.
When I look at the skill sets of the current welterweights, I am still not convinced anyone can put GSP in danger. We’ll see when GSP gets back.
"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.
exactly
the closest GSP has ever come to losing is after being raked and poked in the eye by Shields.
Exposed? C’mon son….
by Ricardo Arguello on Jan 3, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
"Ever"?
You know he’s been beaten a couple of times, right?
"Anyone who enjoys watching sport on television is an imbecile; a dangle-mouthed, cud-chewing, salivating ding-dong with a brain full of dim piss, blobbing out in front of a box watching a grunting thicko knock a ball round a field while their own sad carcass gently coagulates into a wobbling mass of beer and fat and thick white heart-attack gravy" - Charlie Brooker
by Mattyjudo on Jan 3, 2012 12:54 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Except getting punched up by jake shields
But jake is such a better striker than Diaz, condit, ellenberger, Hendricks, or even friggin Diego Sanchez. Oh wait, no he’s not.
he's just better at eye pokes
Then someone falls in love
And someone's beaten up
Someone's beaten up
And the senses being dulled are mine
--The Smiths
He's not gonna be the 2012 champ
Because who knows, his return might not be until 2013.
by Thomas Benjamin on Jan 3, 2012 10:14 AM EST reply actions
Exactly what I was thinking
He wants us to be imprez wid ease pearr four mints.
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
by menckenstein on Jan 3, 2012 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Psychological frailty is a bit much
Didn’t he say that he couldn’t see out of his eye? How can you expect him to not be rattled by that? I think he had a perfectly reasonable response.
I've always maintained that GSP is a bit of a nervous fighter.
A good deal of Jackson’s advice to GSP between rounds is calming him down from whatever got him worked up during a round.
I told him that Marquardt was greasing. - The Voices In Paul Harris' Head, BECW2
"So even though it’s the gayest sport ever, MMA is still the best sport ever. I love my gay sport." - Wrestling Uber Alles
I cant believe anyone would disagree with this. I love GSP, but cmon people. The tapping to strikes against Serra. The .0007ths of a second tap to Hughes with only a few seconds left in the round (in a fight where GSP himself admits he was psychologically freaking out beforehand). The obviously cautious approach post-Serra. I mean, go back and watch the Shields fight again, everyone in the group I was watching with was chuckling over GSP’s between-rounds schtick: “My eye!! MY EYE!!! IM DYING, GREG!! JESUS IM BLIND!!” as he writhes on his stool in pain. It was like the walkoff scene in Zoolander where Hansel asks to get “cut”. I mean this with affection, I’ve always defended GSP and will continue to do so……but cmon, the dude is fragile as a teacup mentally.
by Hutchy on Jan 3, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
He's even gone on record saying he's had sessions with a sports psychologist after the Serra loss.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that – it’s obviously helped him, and more credit to him that he’s able to power through his “issues” and be so successful.
I told him that Marquardt was greasing. - The Voices In Paul Harris' Head, BECW2
"So even though it’s the gayest sport ever, MMA is still the best sport ever. I love my gay sport." - Wrestling Uber Alles
The obviously cautious approach post-Serra.
You mean when he finished 3 of his next 5 fights, and in one of the decisions, had his most prolific offensive output of his career?
How the fuck did this myth get so much traction? GSP was fine after the Serra KO. If anything, his offense only got better.
If you’re saying that you wouldn’t be worried about being suddenly unable to see out of a fully opened eye, then you are either full of shit or something is seriously fucked up with you. If there was a chance that you’d be blind for life and end your multimillion dollar career by continuing to fight, you would do it? Really? Although hindsight is 20/20, at the time, GSP’s corner was stupid for not calling the doctor over to see if he could rule out a detached retina or other emergency condition.
by paythefighters on Jan 3, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yes agreed
to say he is “psychologically frail” when he won that fight while unable to see out of one eye is ridiculous.
you do realize kickboxers fight half blind all the time right?
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 3, 2012 10:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
and most of them have to compensate for it by raising their defence and fighting conservatively enough to win the fight. we also rarely get to see corner interaction in kickboxing. who’s to say that they don’t experience the same sense of panic GSP did initially.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
True
But GSP tends to show his panic a little more, which might make a difference. Shields certainly got braver afterwards.
by Thomas Benjamin on Jan 3, 2012 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
Reasonable? Maybe
But it’s a liability for a high-level fighter. Some guys panic more easily than others – look at Diego Nunes when he fought Mike Brown. He was just as blind as GSP against Shields, but he fought like nothing was wrong. Overeem against Lesnar – he openly admitted that he couldn’t see out of one eye after Lesnar cut him above it. Some fighters deal with it well. GSP is not one of them.
he still manages to beat his opponent. some people need to talk through the issue. if that’s not what the corner is for than i’m just confused.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
He didn’t talk through it. His striking fell apart afterward. He went from embarrassing Shields to fighting close enough rounds that two judges scored against him.
To be clear, I don’t think he’s going to lose his title and I don’t think there are any WW’s with a realistic shot at beating him. But his need for perfection can be a bad thing.
by crazybones on Jan 3, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
fair point.
i’m not saying that his corner created a 90 second gameplan to destroy Shields w/ one eye. i’m saying that getting through 3 more rounds and winning the fight became a priority for all parties in GSPs camp.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
I think the whole "psychological frailty" argument falls apart when viewed in context of the Alves fight, as well:
People seem to forget he tore his abductor (or was it his adductor, his damn French Canadian accent is confusing) and Greg Jackson simply said, “Hit him with it.” GSP fought no differently after the tear, and continued to dominate Alves.
The issue is overblown.
by Disco-Platypus on Jan 3, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
I think that adds to it.
The fact that he brought it up and seemed so fixated on it points to a little bit of frailty, in my eyes. Thankfully for him, he’s got a great corner who works well with him and Jackson was able to get him to ignore (or work past, at any rate) the injury and get the W.
I told him that Marquardt was greasing. - The Voices In Paul Harris' Head, BECW2
"So even though it’s the gayest sport ever, MMA is still the best sport ever. I love my gay sport." - Wrestling Uber Alles
How was he fixated?
He brought it up once, never mentioned it again, and then fought no differently.
by Disco-Platypus on Jan 3, 2012 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
You're correct.
I thought it had happened in the 3rd and he’d brought it up between rounds 3 & 4 and again between 4 & 5. My mistake.
I told him that Marquardt was greasing. - The Voices In Paul Harris' Head, BECW2
"So even though it’s the gayest sport ever, MMA is still the best sport ever. I love my gay sport." - Wrestling Uber Alles
bringing it up to his corner is a sign of intelligence not frailty.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
I didn't say it wasn't a smart move for him.
What I said was, he seems like he gets very nervous at the prospect of injuries, but Jackson does a good job calming him down, keeping him focused, and helping him get the W.
I told him that Marquardt was greasing. - The Voices In Paul Harris' Head, BECW2
"So even though it’s the gayest sport ever, MMA is still the best sport ever. I love my gay sport." - Wrestling Uber Alles
All I remember from the Alves fight is him visibly wincing and complaining about it when it happened, in the corner between rounds, and in the post fight interview. Again, i’m sure it hurt. However, things dont happen in a vacumn, they happen in context to other fighter’s reactions to in ring injuries. GSP’s reactions are the most dramatic and, dare I say it, kinda fragile of any fighter I’ve ever seen.
GSP has been 5 steps a head of the competition and now all of a sudden he's gonna be an after thought?? yea ok ppl.
MMA FANS have been exposed.
Visit fiveouncesofpain.com
by RECE ROCK on Jan 3, 2012 10:20 AM EST reply actions 8 recs
Does anyone share
The opinion that the whole ‘interim’ routine is something that needs to be scrapped. Look, at the end of the day, he is injured, and can’t defend his title, and that could be the case for a long time. If a man can’t defend his title, regardless of why, he should lose the belt. Placing an interim title on Diaz on Super Bowl weekend, (which is the inevitable outcome) diminishes the title, and puts Diaz (your future WW Champion) in the position of appearing to be a fill-in. Let’s move forward, shall we. Nick defends his title against the next guy in line, okay, now he’s the defending interim champion? If GSP’s injury is that severe, Nick may well defend it three times against the top contenders before GSP returns. Interim titles, and the title of interim, is foolishness, and it is only being used to keep hype alive. I think GSP could beat Diaz if his return is 100%, but if he puts up multiple defenses, calling him interim is a discredit to the accomplishment.
"OWWWWW! HAVE MERCY!" Dude Love, the man, the myth, the legend!
by Mr. Socko on Jan 3, 2012 10:59 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The only time someone should lose their title is if they retire or quit the sport as Rampage had done for his movie thing. If your injured and intent on coming back as soon as possible, you should keep your title.
agreed.
we have 5 round non title main events now. the belt doesn’t make a fight more exciting because we all no it’s not the “real” belt.
i think it’s just a marketing strategy for the UFC.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
belts sell fights.......um
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
I understand your point, but...
How dumb does “Defending Interim Welterweight Champion” sound? Has anyone defended an interim title in UFC? Am I missing something? (Besides an encyclopediac knowledge of UFC?)
"OWWWWW! HAVE MERCY!" Dude Love, the man, the myth, the legend!
by Mr. Socko on Jan 3, 2012 12:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not sure if it’s happened in the past, but I still don’t think GSP should be stripped of his title through no fault of his own. He’s done more than enough in the UFC, and he doesn’t deserve to be stripped when he’s been the perfect company man all these years.
Okay, NOW I GET your point! Spot on! Personally, I want him back really bad, just to fight Diaz. His awesomeness, and the Penn versus Sherk fight is what brought me back to the UFC after I abandoned it during the Tank Abbot era. Thanks for straightening this hick out!
"OWWWWW! HAVE MERCY!" Dude Love, the man, the myth, the legend!
by Mr. Socko on Jan 3, 2012 1:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Okay, NOW I GET your point! Spot on! Personally, I want him back really bad, just to fight Diaz. His awesomeness, and the Penn versus Sherk fight is what brought me back to the UFC after I abandoned it during the Tank Abbot era. Thanks for straightening this hick out!
"OWWWWW! HAVE MERCY!" Dude Love, the man, the myth, the legend!
by Mr. Socko on Jan 3, 2012 1:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Arlovski defended the Interim HW title against Justin Eilers, and Big Nog lost the Interim title to Frank Mir at UFC 92.
"Nothin' wrong with an ass whuppin' every now and then. You take away the ass whuppin's and what do you get? You get people wearin' pants below their belly buttons. I'm tellin' you, you go out these days and see the crack of a young lady's butt. It's crazy, man. They should be locked up for indecent exposure. Look here. See? Suspenders! And a belt! I ain't takin' no chances."
Arlovski, big nog... They defended interim belts. But yes, it sounds dumb I agree lol
Although if the interim champ just fought the champ right after winning the interim belt, there’s really no need for an interim champ. May as well just be a #1 contender fight in that case.
I understand your point, but...
How dumb does “Defending Interim Welterweight Champion” sound? Has anyone defended an interim title in UFC? Am I missing something? (Besides an encyclopediac knowledge of UFC?)
"OWWWWW! HAVE MERCY!" Dude Love, the man, the myth, the legend!
by Mr. Socko on Jan 3, 2012 12:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I agree it doesn't hold a lot of substance
But it makes it sound like there’s less of a hold up at the top of the division. It’s preferable to people fighting for the nr. 1 contender spot for an entire year, in my opinion.
by Thomas Benjamin on Jan 3, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
He's out maneuvered and controlled fighters to the extent
that it appears as though he’s “practicing” his sub offence, a jab over and over, and when those don’t get finishes he gives up and calmly tries something else, or simply continues brutalizing opponents – opponents who can’t do a damn thing about any of it except stand in front of him and be beaten up.
That counts for something.
It's not that GSP has been exposed . . . He's winning, BUT . . .
The fact that his past opponents are being stoppped left and right just goes to show that his risk averse, smart and safe approach can use a little tune up. If anything else, if he truly wants to finish a fight, he may need a different approach.
With that said, he will still be the WW champion. He can beat Ellenberger, Hendricks, Condit and Diaz via 5-round grind.
--------
"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
Why would GSP even care to finish guys, though? His primary goal is to keep his belt, and that’s what he’s been doing. Why would he want to change anything and risk getting Serra’d again? Why would he do that?
Please look at my sig.
He’s specifically stated OFTEN that he would like to finish fights. This is a fact, not my opinion. That is a direct quote.
There’s not question or argument here.
--------
"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Sure… he’s saying that, but when he’s in a fight, his instincts are to win, not to finish. And that’s allowed him to keep his belt this long. He’s saying he wants finishes to keep people on his side.
I believe his instincts are to finish, I believe he tried to finish Shields often.
I also thinks he’s really trying to figure out why he’s not finishing guys like Dan Hardy. He has all the tools and then some.
--------
"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
If he truly wanted to finish Shields, why didn’t he follow him to the floor when he had landed that sweet head kick? Shields was clearly hurt by that shot, and GSP could’ve finished him with a few additional shots… but, he was scared of Shields’s ground game and didn’t want to take that risk.
he had one eye
and vision is key when grappling w/ an ace on the ground like Shields.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
I suppose, but you’d think he could’ve found a way to land a few punch to a downed Shields even with both of his eyes closed. Maybe not.
he absolutely was ultra conservative after the eye thing. those wild overhand rights should have given everyone notice that GSP was trying to compensate for his vision problems. for me the Shields fight was a wash.
everyone talks about his emotional/psychological problems yet no one ever takes stock in the fact that he still walks away w/ the win.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
everyone talks about his emotional/psychological problems yet no one ever takes stock in the fact that he still walks away w/ the win.
Because it is GSP, for better or worse. MMA fans have taken a shine to “exposing GSP,” as David says in his article, and the amount of leniency they are willing to give his performances has all but dissipated.
While Anderson – especially on this site, sweet Jesus the hyperbole is rich – can be controlled via one of his weaknesses for four-and-a-half rounds, the submission at the end is all that remains. GSP loses a round or two after 35 straight, and Castillo here feels that’s indicative of a WW changing of the guard.
Sit back and ponder how silly that is for a moment. Fighter A is actually losing a fight, through a legitimate clash of styles, and all is forgiven; fighter B is actually winning a fight, despite being poked in the eye, and is now washed up. If that scenario were any other fighters than Anderson and GSP, it’d be ridiculous.
by Disco-Platypus on Jan 3, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
i’m so glad i’m not the only person who sees this. the gsp hate and silva nut-hugging on this site seems crazy to me these day.
i mean, hey, it was a lot more fun watching silva destroy okami than it was gsp jab shields. but you are supposed to put that to the side a bit when you are talking about a figther’s ability and not your own personal preference.
The truth that no one talks about is that Silva is visibly and dramatically slowing down far more then GSP. Go back and watch the 1st round of the Okami fight with the sound off, without the crowd of your own expectations clouding what you see. The truth is, that first round was far from some kind of one sided demolition. Silva actually missed with a few big shots, something I virtually never see. Taken as a whole, his body of work over the past 2 years or so suggests that Silva is winding down much more then GSP.
True. Well, you can’t be surprised if GSP haters are finding ways to hate on him…
I’m as big a GSP fan there is, and I hope he comes back at 100% so that he easily UD’s everyone in the division. Sure, I’d like him to finish a few guys, but has zero consequence in my appreciation of his abilities and how dominant he is against the division’s best.
why would a fighter wanna win a fight in the truest since of the word?
If you have to ask you will never understand.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jan 3, 2012 10:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Good question
but I would imagine the chances of losing a fight over 5 rounds are much lower when you can starch a guy in under a round or two.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
"The fact that his past opponents are being stoppped left and right"
Isn’t that as shakey as “MMA math”? So clearly relating what happens in a particular fight, months or years later against a different opponent so closely with what GSP did.
Not necessarily shakey as MMA Math.
His past opponents are being stopped, some being stopped easily. Incredibly easy compared to his matches. Facts.
With that said, I still feel he will defeat ALL future opponents in the WW division.
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Once GSP beats guys, he shakes up their confidence. He makes them vulnerable in their future matches. That’s my theory.
That's some serious fanboy bullshit!
by 775assassin on Jan 3, 2012 11:11 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
Have you ever had a serious knee injury? There is a very good chance that GSP will never be the same fighter he was.
by 775assassin on Jan 3, 2012 11:17 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
i have. (torn acl and partially torn mcl) i’m an old man and i had full motion in 3 months w/ soul destroying PT. at 6 months i was back at the gym rolling full time. at 9 months i was competing in over 35 grappling tourneys again.
GSP is at least 20 times the athlete that i am. he will be back w/ a vengeance. were you aware that after the first ACL replacement you have a good chance to make your knee stronger than it once was.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions
so
what about dan henderson, or carlos condit, or yushin okami who couldn’t finish or defeat shields?
or rumble johnson, who couldn’t finish dan hardy, only to see hardy get finished by lytle his very next fight? has he been exposed?
or what about all the guys who couldn’t beat, let alone finish, jon fitch?
to be blunt, the whole “GSP is exposed because his opponent was finished easily” is exactly like MMAmath. it could be explained by any number of factors, including the level of caution his opponents show when they fight him.
remember how silva didn’t finish leites, or maia, or how overeem did not finish werdum? why? because their opponents did not engage. and everyone fights gsp with that same level of fear.
GSP should be judged on his performances. let’s be clear: he has been cautious, weirdly so, his last few fights. there’s no need to engage in MMAmath calculations.
PLEASE NOTE . . . and read my comments. I DO NOT THINK GSP has been exposed
I do think his and his past performances seriously highlights his risk-averse, safety first approach to fighting.
Yes, he has been cautious. I personally thought he was going for the kill against Fitch and Shields but in the end, he couldn’t make it happen. Does it expose him in any way? NO.
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
i guess
my main point was:
1) it’s fair to look at GSP’s fights and say: what’s wrong? he’s over cautious. even compared to decision happy fighters like edgar and cruz, he just seems more jittery in there.
2) but, in my opinion, it’s not fair to look at the fact that other people have finished his opponents. that’s mma math.
The only thing I really take away from this "GSP is exposed" meme
is that it kinda hushes all of that “well the quality of fighters in the ww division are much tougher than the mw division, that’s why GSP can’t finish his opponents like Silva blah blah blah” talk. I love it. “Welterweight fighters are tougher and better than mw fighters” and then Kos gets ko’d by Paulo, Hardy gets ko’d by Condit inside of a round and subbed by Lytle, and both Shields and Fitch get ko’d in under a combined 1 minute and 15 seconds by relatively unknown fighters…a feat that took GSP 50 minutes to accomplish.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Just a note. While Hendricks and ESPECIALLY Ellenberger are relatively unknown commodities in MMA. They BOTH highlight once again that just because you do not fight in the UFC . . . you can still be considered a great fighter.
Well, that’s just my opinion. I personally think Cole Konrad would probably be a huge problems for many heavyweights in the UFC or StrikeForce.
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Too his credit, his striking is slowly but surely improving. And if that fails him, his wrestling is monstrous.
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
along w/ his belly
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
The belly works for Roy Nelson!
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
i shutter at the thought of dealing w/ either of those twos top control game.
i’ve rolled w/ competent fat folks before……it sucks!
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He outstruck Paul Buentello!
SEE and LEARN the SECRET DEATH TOUCH
by Horselover Fat on Jan 3, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
this could be fun.
while i agree w/ you that great fighters exist outside of the UFC i feel it would be disingenuous to call them great until they are constantly creating problems for other great fighters.
this discussion can go for days. Vee, make some crazy claims and i’ll do the same to get everyone roped into this discussion.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Ok great might be a huge stretch . . . but I think they’re solid competitors. I’ve been making the claim that Donald Cerrone, with his physical abilities would do great in the UFC. While many people continued to state that their was a reason why the WEC lightweights were not in the UFC. Honestly I was surprised that Ben Henderson did so well and I think Pettis is still young but all the “UFC-name-brand” crap some times doesn’t mean crap. After all, there are many scrubs that can call themselves a “UFC” fighter. Roger Huerta is basically making a living off his UFC hype.
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
shit
i agree on all points…that kinda sucks.
the only reason the LWs of the WEC stayed in the WEC was because zuffa needed them to help maintain their little promotion that could. don’t get me wrong i thought the WEC fighter trio of Pettis, Hendo, and Cowboy could swim in the deep waters of the UFC. hell i even thought Varner might be able to hang.
i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again and again. the Lombard’s, Konrad’s, Alvarez’s and Askren’s in the world need to be in the UFC because then we could eliminate more of the scrubs in the UFC and determine each of their greatness.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
Oh I agree completely
just look at Andy. Leben was talking mad shit about welcoming a newcomer to the UFC and look what happened. Also the trio of guys from the WEC (Bendo, Pettis and Cerrone), Bendo did not give two fucks and completely ran through the 3 guys standing across from him last year and now he has a title shot. About a year ago people were completely writing them off as viable challengers in the UFC.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That's pretty weak logic
Shields and Hardy getting finished says nothing about the weakness of WW. What does say something is that Swick and Kampmann did very well at MW, only getting outmuscled by the top fighters, and then ran into superior skill when dropping down to WW; Stann had a middling career at LHW and suddenly becoming a top-10 at MW.
MW is without question the weakest division. The reason is pretty clear: LHW money. Shogun and arguably Machida (maybe even Evans) have MW frames, but had success at LHW and ran with it.
by paythefighters on Jan 3, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
?
I never said that the ww division wasn’t better. The caliber of fighters at ww are much better than mw, I’m not denying that. All I’m saying is that I remember when there were a handful of people arguing that the reason why GSP doesn’t finish his opponents like Silva does so often was due to how much better ww fighters were than mw fighters. That was said and then these supposed unfinishable welterweights are being finished left and right. Shields, Hardy and Fitch have all been finished in 2011, Kos is the only one who hasn’t been finished in a while (almost 3 years), but has been finished after GSP fought him.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
Oh yeah please note. Paulo Thiago easily stopped Koscheck with a well placed upper-cut prior to GSP vs Koscheck II.
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
The whole point goes back to the old adage, styles make fights.
GSP’s performances against his past performances highlights a safety-first, risk averse approach. Although I thought he was going really hard against Jon Fitch. But with that said, Koscheck approached an unknown fighter with little to no respect and paid dearly.
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Same can be said about Fitch this weekend… He didn’t respect Hendricks at all and boom, paid for it. Same with Hardy vs Condit… he went 25 minutes with GSP, a lot of it standing, there was no way Condit could beat him on the feet, and boom, down he went. Confidence is a huge factor in MMA, often more important than actual skills.
The only conclusion that I can draw from Fitch vs Hendricks is:
- Hendricks has power.
- Fitch doesn’t have speed on his feet. GSP and Mike Pierce already proved that.
- I’m sure Fitch respected Hendricks power. Everybody already saw what Hendricks can do. I’m sure Fitch watched some tape.
Condit vs Hardy. Hardy did admit that he did not respect Condit at all.
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Well, Fitch had his hands by his waste when Hendricks caught him… that’s not a sign of respecting someone’s power…
I think the victory is more of a testament to Hendricks power and speed as opposed to Fitch’s preparation or being caught with his pants hands down.
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
Combination of both, IMO. Fitch has fought guys with just as much power than Hendricks. He was coming from a long layoff, so ring rust was an issue, as was his apparent lack of respect for Hendricks.
yep like Ellenberger
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
My only conclusion is that
shit happens in mma. Anything can happen. A very similar thing happened to Hominick in his last fight. If Dan had found Andy’s chin in their last fight, Andy could have very well been ktfo. If Lyoto had caught Jone’s with one of the best punches of his life, he’d be champ now. Shit happens.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
...
or doesn’t happen I suppose.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Hominick’s was very careless. Dare I say stupid. He paid the price. He was just out of character, he admitted.
I don’t think that’s a case of the proverbial sh*t happening, I think that was a total lack of mental focus on Hominick’s part. Eventually many fighters learn at some point in their careers, fools rush in.
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
lol lol!
I guess Andy and GSP are the only ones safe!
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
I meant Andy and JDS.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
Not really… Big Country’s been finished by Arlovski, while JDS never came that close to finishing him.
Same with Andy… he couldn’t finish Maia, yet Marquardt did it in like 15 seconds.
Every MMA fighter is exposed! Can we please be done with this stupid meme, now?
BUT
GSP currently has the most recent unfinished opponents and then a fight or two later, that fighter is either subbed or tko’d/ko’d. Fitch, Shields, Hardy, and Kos have all been finished. It’s just that GSP has been in the cage with these guys for a grueling 25 minutes each and then you see a “lesser” fighter ko one of his past opponents in a round (Hardy), another fighter gets ko’d in a round (Kos), another fighter gets…ko’d in a round (Shields) and another fighter that GSP took to a 25 minute decision gets ko’d…in a round (Fitch). His just kinda stands out a bit more than the other champs due the number of his decision wins and also because in theory he should be able to do the same or even better than Condit, Thiago, Lytle, Ellenberger and Hendricks since GSP trains with Freddie Roach and Gracies. That’s how I look at it, but styles do make fights and a fighter with nothing to lose is more willing to not give a fuck and just go out and throw bombs as opposed to possibly being concerned about making a stupid mistake, get ktfo and end up fucking up their legacy and losing the belt…not to mention a few million bucks if they were the champ.
As an aside: “Big Country’s been finished by Arlovski, while JDS never came that close to finishing him.” Man idk about that, if I remember correctly, JDS had Roy flopping on his ass a couple times due to strikes. That and the fact that Roy has ONLY been finished by Arlovski.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
He was ko'd
granted it was his 5th fight after their first meeting. GSP decisioned him, Paulo ko’d him and then GSP decisioned him again.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
Right, forgot their first fight. Still, didn’t happen immediately after the first GSP fight. And Koscheck clearly was way too careless in there against the unknown Thiago. Nobody is careless against GSP, everyone fights not to look too bad against GSP. Hard to finish guys when they’re focusing on defense and not looking too bad, and aren’t aggressive at all.
Yeah
good point. I don’t think Koscheck respected Paulo at all. UFC Fighters really need to stop underestimating new fighters coming into the UFC.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 4, 2012 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Uhh, what?
How exactly do Fitch and Koscheck fit into your “a fight or two later, that fighter is either subbed or tko’d/ko’d” theory?
Fitch was unbeaten in SIX fights, let alone finished, despite facing noted finishers BJ Penn, Thiago Alves, Ben Saunders, and (at the time) Paulo Thiago.
Koscheck was finished only once, far removed from either fight with GSP, and it was due to him being cocky about his standup against an unknown fighter and throwing a horrific blind leaping jab that he’ll probably never throw again.
by paythefighters on Jan 3, 2012 2:35 PM EST up reply actions
Ok they weren’t literally a fight or two later. I was really just thinking about Shields being blasted in his next fight directly after GSP. Specifics aside, you can’t deny the fact that 4 men that GSP decisioned have been finished 5 times after they’ve fought him. I’m not saying it makes him look bad, but when other guys who aren’t the champ are somewhat easily finishing guys that the champ couldn’t finish in 25 minutes, it doesn’t make you look that great in retrospect either.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions
Guys are incredibly cautious when they fight GSP, they just don’t want to look bad. It’s hard to finish guys that are fighting defense-first and not being aggressive at all. Once they’ve lost to GSP, they want to get back in the title hunt, start being aggressive again, and get caught. Pretty simple.
That's a HUGE factor.
Consider Dan Hardy. He really wasn’t trying to beat GSP, and a decision loss was his goal:
I went in there, basically hoping to show I didn’t have any quit in me. After the fight I was like, ‘That really couldn’t have gone any better.’ If I had knocked him out, they would have said it was a lucky punch. But the fact I got my a— kicked for 25 minutes and survived, people said, ‘Well, he’s not on the same level technically, but he’s game.
His mindset against Condit, OTOH:
He’s gonna step in there thinking he can fight me like he has fought everybody else, and I’ll hit him one time and change his mind – if he’s still awake. I could beat him any day of the week, whenever, wherever. I don’t see anything in his game that concerns me. He’s not gonna hurt me with his striking, if he even lands a punch.
“He’s scrappy and he’s wild. I could close my eyes and throw a punch in any direction and it would still hit him in the face.
You could see it in the fights. He was 0 for 18 from striking distance against GSP, rolling with GSP’s punches to lessen the impact. Against Condit, he didn’t even care if Condit was going to hit him, which we saw in the KO sequence.
With Shields, he clearly had no intention of winning. Why else would he abandon his ground game? Why was he the one bringing the fight to the feet every time it went to the ground? Same with Koscheck, after his fracture (although it’s moe understandable). Barely initiated any exchange, and even when GSP opened up to throw wilder power punches, Kos just leaped out of the way. That is the polar opposite fight attitude compared to his fight against Thiago.
by paythefighters on Jan 3, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
I think GSP version 2.0 is exactly the sort of fighter
who will bounce back well from an injury. In recent fights I haven’t really seen him relying on his explosiveness. His style is much more plodding and deliberate now, and once he heals — he’s still a relatively young, superlative athlete who’s taken relatively little damage in his career — I think he’ll be back where he started.
I think he out-boxes and out-points power punching wrestleboxers like Hendricks and Ellenberger, and I think he wrestlefucks Diaz or Condit to fairly easy decisions. I think he’s gonna come back and make this article look silly. And I’m not even much of a fan.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs
The article already looks silly, to be honest. To mention that GSP is doomed because the division has somehow changed is beyond ridiculous. The only thing that’s changed in the last few months is GSP’s knee got hurt. That’s all. Everything else is just pure imagination by someone that doesn’t like GSP. That’s it.
I don't agree
It’s indeed a little far fetched to say that the division is catching up on GSP, but it certainly is interesting that there’s a whole new line of challengers waiting for him. Every fighter, even though similar in style, poses a different threat. That GSP is good at every discipline doesn’t make him invulnerable to everything. We’ve seen what he can do to the Fitches and Penns of the world, good, now let’s see what he does to the Ellenbergers and Diaz’.
by Thomas Benjamin on Jan 3, 2012 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
exactly
i really could not have put it better myself (and i AM a gsp fan).
the idea that ellengberger and hendricks are going to beat gsp because they finished fitch/shields is crazy. all it means is that gsp will be even more cautious against them.
We are currently expierencing GSP 2.0.
But yeah, GSP will continue to be the champion.
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"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
It's not obvious, but GSP does use his speed a lot
Both Koscheck and Fitch – seasoned fighters who have faced many opponents – remarked how shockingly fast GSP is.
It’s the synergy between his speed and his all round game that makes GSP so hard to beat. His jab is lightning quick, and he’ll rapidly transition it into a TD attempt if needed. His balance is amazing, but couple that with his stance and speed and he’s nearly impossible to take down. He judges distance well, but couple that with his speed and he’s really hard to hit (provided both eyes are working).
by paythefighters on Jan 3, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
GSP just hasn’t been giving performances that you’d expect from a P4P contender over the last 2 years, he just hasn’t. Meanwhile Nick Diaz bashed up Cyborg, outstruck the most feared puncher in the sport at 170, then gave BJ Penn a hiding. Safety first is cool, but don’t expect the fans to keep talking about you like the second coming when theres a guy in your weight class who’s doing it in style.
by sheikybaby on Jan 3, 2012 10:32 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
be clear Daley did drop Diaz...
he just didnt know what to do when he did…
by Chris WhiteDynamite Bielanski on Jan 3, 2012 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
?
Um yeah…because he had an extra 10 minutes to do so (even though it only took an extra 5). Do you really think that Penn would have been able to mount any form of spectacular offense to beat Diaz if he had another 2 rounds?
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
We’ll never know. All I know is that GSP finished Penn. I may be wrong, but I don’t think Penn’s ever been finished by anyone else, including Machida.
Hughes
finished him in a crucifix I believe. Not too shabby having your only two finishes coming from ww’s when you’re a lw fighter.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Right, forgot about that fight. So yeah, two people have finished Penn, both pretty much inarguably the two best WW’s we’ve ever in the sport.
Yep.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t you dare bring facts in this discution!
"I don't want to sound cocky, but I do hold myself in high regard."
by spectaa on Jan 3, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
lulz!
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
kind of a pointless conjecture at this point...
As evidenced this past year the landscape can change dramatically overnight…who knows where the division is by the time GSP is ready and capable…I’m not going to make predictions this early on…
by Chris WhiteDynamite Bielanski on Jan 3, 2012 10:42 AM EST reply actions
There is good news for GSP.
Anthony Johnson is at MW, for now. If there was a nightmare matchup for GSP, that would be it. Bigger, more athletic with wrestling and long reach. Not to mention huge power. If he gets more solid experience, he could be the GSP killer. He’s still raw but seems to be improving is overall game from the Clementi and Kos losses.
by Steve W on Jan 3, 2012 10:48 AM EST via mobile reply actions
- I really don’t think Anthony Johnson is more athletic than GSP. Note, this is basically an observation, it can not be proven.
- Rumble doesn’t really use his reach as well as GSP, Jones or Anderson Silva. He has soem serious potential but he’s just not there yet. Stefan Struve and Brock Lesnar sports a great reach advantage but it really doesn’t help them in their fights.
--------
"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
AJ will learn about reach in the MW division. he won’t have a choice. if he doesn’t he’ll be back at WW before too long.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
If Rumble doesn’t practice keeping his opponent at the end of his jab or kicks while protecting his head . . . he will be unconscious in Brazil.
--------
"When I watched it, it's like I became a fan of myself, too" - Frankie Edgar on UFC 136
"I actually held public office and I left the only way a politician should, in handcuffs" - Chael Sonnen
"but if there's anyone who wants to finish fights it's me." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 3, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
actually, i think Vitor and his bulldozing style may help AJ more than hinder him. Vitor isn’t the best distance fighter out their. the way he wades in could be right up AJ’s alley.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jan 3, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Also
His cardio still kinda sucks in my eyes. Sure, he went the distance with Hardy, but that was a fight which he easily dominated. That’s not a good indication of how he would fare against a guy who will actually give him a fight.
by Thomas Benjamin on Jan 3, 2012 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
Real clever
Psychoblack!
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jan 3, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
stop trying to play god and figure out things you dont know
the welterweight division is gonna thrive now that everybody can just fight everyone and not worry about getting destroyed by the real champ. and once he comes back im pretty sure he’s going to wanna continue his reign. will his knee affect him idk but i know one thing before the knee injury he still was pretty much the best in the division and would beat all these guys in the title hunt now
like water
and this was the way i felt watching the reem kill brock
"He got knee'd right in the diverticulitis
by Balrog on Dec 30, 2011 9:20 PM PST"
It’s called speculation son, playing god has nothing to do with it.
by Thomas Benjamin on Jan 3, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
This article - and the even more ridiculous 'round table' on a similar topic - are sad testaments to the fatalist tinge of MMA writing.
David, I hope you are reading this and will answer this question honestly: other than a need for hyperbolic conjecture, what has occurred in the WW division that makes you state the below?
it does serve as a reflection of a WW division catching up with GSP
In which way(s), precisely? That Ellenberger and Hendricks KFTO’d Shields and Fitch, respectively, evinces nothing about their skills relative to GSP – it simply demonstrates their skills relative to their opponents. Nothing – and here I mean absolutely nothing – since Serra II has given us an indication that the division as a whole is catching up to GSP.
On a side note, I find it ironic that you point out “GSP is exposed!,” and then write an article in that same vintage.
Because there were an elite level of fighters in the WW division were a step above the rest of the welterweights and a step below GSP. You can approach their defeats in two ways.
1) Their ( FItch, Kos, Shields, Alves) skills have decreased.
2) The rest of the welterweight division has caught up to the elite of the division.
Again:
The rest of the welterweight division has caught up to the elite of the division.
How does that indicate anybody has caught up to GSP? He won 35 straight rounds without ever, not once, being put in a compromising position? A. Silva was on his back, losing handily, for four-and-a-half straight rounds. By your rubric, the best pound-for-pound fighter must be a washed up has-been.
by Disco-Platypus on Jan 3, 2012 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
How Will Georges St. Pierre Respond to the New Welterweight Landscape?
Simple. He’s going to find all of their weaknesses and exploit them because he’s a better fighter than any of them by leaps and bounds.
Writer for Blistered Thumbs
Part of Team Luke Thomas' Beard (LTB)
You may like Diaz, but Brock actually won a title that mattered.
Follow @TheCynicsCorner
Yep. The only question mark is GSP’s knee. If he comes back at 100% and has confidence in his knee, he beats everyone of Condit, Diaz, Ellenberger, Hendricks and whoever else you want to add here easily.
Exactly. Bring forth your BJJ black belts, Stockton slappers, NCAA champions and so forth. GSP will make them look like it’s their first day in the octagon.
Writer for Blistered Thumbs
Part of Team Luke Thomas' Beard (LTB)
You may like Diaz, but Brock actually won a title that mattered.
Follow @TheCynicsCorner
by MicahtheCynic on Jan 3, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
I do give the winner of Diaz and Condit the best shot at beating GSP in a long time… and that’s because they’re durable, hit hard, have never-ending motors and just have mean instincts and go for the kill. With that said, GSP’s still the heavy favorite against either of them.
And both get sunk by guys who can put them on their back
"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
~ Joe Lewis
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
True, but even there, they’re live dogs on their back… GSP’s been caught before. I’m the most interested in either of these two fighting GSP than I have been with his recent fights… they have more complete games, and there’s not a very clear safe way to victory for GSP.
They don't have more complete games though
They both have big gaping holes in their game. I get why people like them, they’re charismatic, exciting, aggressive fighters, but GSP is a stylistic nightmare for both of them as his biggest strength exposes their biggest weaknesses.
"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
~ Joe Lewis
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
I think Koschek has a more complete game
And beats both of them if they ever fight.
"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
~ Joe Lewis
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
Koscheck’s striking is horrible. He has decent power, but his technique is horible. GSP made a fool out of him while standing.
How can you say Condit or Diaz have a more complete game
When neither one of them can wrestle worth a damn?
"Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit."
~ Joe Lewis
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
I heard on the JBS that he won't be able to start training till late october at the very earliest, mid november being more possible.
It’s pretty likely that he won’t even fight in 2012.
GSP champion 2012?
I heard he should be afraid of a certain middleweight, called the linear AND peoples champion…
by Vetr on Jan 3, 2012 11:26 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I don’t think Tito should drop to MW.
"I don't want to sound cocky, but I do hold myself in high regard."
by spectaa on Jan 3, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“But he only fought once in 2011, and it was an absolutely stinker.”
This is not the WWE. It’s like complaining to a gold medalist that he was boring.
by Rody Diaz on Jan 3, 2012 11:37 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Love the mma fans/media have been exposed comment!
true true!
though a little boring at times, gsp in ww div. is the same as a.silva in the mw division…hes been dominating…
the only thing that is question is how he comes back from the injured knee… these new guys in contendership
have suddenly got ‘better’ since gsp got injured? wtf?
basically, IF gsp comes back with a 100% recovered knee and training regime then ww div. probably wont change much…
i do like Diaz’s chances agains gsp though would have been a great fight!
condit i dont think would have been a huge threat to gsp apart from getting a clean punch/kick to gsp’s head…
More than anything, I think the long lay off will affect his mental game
he’s going to feel a lot of pressure to win else he “loses everything”.
hah yeah
It’s going to give the challenger a chance to really dictate the pace, and force GSP into doing something risky.
by squaresphere on Jan 3, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
GSP's pyschological frailty???
who wouldnt be concerned if they got poked in the eye and couldnt see? GSP will defeat whoever is put in front of him. Finish or no finish. Everyone always harps on finishes, all fights happen differently. No one presses GSP, Diaz will so that will create a different fight and an exciting one. There will be an interim belt that will probably change hands once before George is ready to fight again to unify it.
between the long lay off and new wave of 170 lbers gsp will still win but not be top dog
IMHO of course
They're coming to get you Barbara
GSP is exposed
He keeps winning but he’s not pleasing the fans with finishes, which is why Jose Aldo is no longer a top FW because he’s failed to finish 3 of his last 4!
Give me a break. I’m thinking he may not be the same with an injury this serious, but I knew that if Fitch got KO’d the argument would be GSP is a play-it-safe fighter. WATCH THE FITCH FIGHT AGAIN FOR F*** SAKE!!! How safe was that? Turning Fitch’s face into hamburger, making Penn quit, dominating Thiago Alves, and ripping up Koscheck’s eye is not risk-averse? It can be argued Koscheck has more power than GSP in his hands and he was content to stand with him.
Read my tweets or whatever - @SSReporters
by SSreporters on Jan 3, 2012 1:02 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
In my eyes the next Champ will be one of these men.
Carlos Condit
Nick Diaz
Jake Ellenberger
Jake is kind of unlikely but he has a chance.
Condit vs Diaz winner will have a much easier time beating GSP since he will be rusty and out of the ring for so long.
"Dont take anything for granted when your fighting me. If you assume you have an edge here or that your gonna dominate me there, you know you better think again man Cause Im gonna FUCK YOU UP!!!"-Carlos Condit Champion 2011
by RJshock 305 on Jan 3, 2012 1:04 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Dear OP
I ask you – Has ANYONE (and we’re not talking the Ellenberger KO) ever looked good against Jake Shields?
The answer is no. Jake’s style has never been friendly to the highlight reel. GSP was no exception.
For anyone who thinks being a champion requires highlight reel knock outs or submissions every fight because a guy like Anderson Silva or Jon Bones Jones set the bar so high they should look no further than the heavyweight division where the belt changes hands near every title fight now.
Of course than the nay sayers will just bitch about the lack of depth.
It’s not about how Shields makes people look, it’s about GSP’s skillset being tailor made for Shields’ destruction— great (defensive) wrestling and standup that is infinitely better than Shields’. He didn’t mess Shields up the way everyone thought he would and thus people were dissapointed.
by Thomas Benjamin on Jan 3, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Great reply.
That said I’ll stick to my guns on styles having a lot to do with how a fight plays out.
Jake’s MO is typically grinding out submissions or decisions. GSP as of late has been grinding out decisions which occasionally lead to stoppages.
The results of that recipe nine times out of ten is going to be an ugly decision which it was. Neither guy has one punch KO power or likely to fumble into a bad spot to be submitted.
On paper it looks like GSP should’ve been able to dissect Shields standing up, however lets not forget Shields trains with some pretty versed strikers.
Anyone who has fought shields looked great striking
Difference is shields normally gets ppl down, that’s how he wins. Nobody except gsp has kept the fight standing, which is a great feat, but he’s also the only guy to get punched up by jake shields in the stand up. Not even guys on bully beatdown got that beat up by jakes kickboxing
Would it not stand to reason that Jake would be taking damage to get fights to the ground thus resulting in his opponents appearance of ‘great striking’?
Did GSP not stand up with Alves and Koschek? Widely considering top strikers?
Shouldn’t “great striking” be considered more than just the punches, kicks, knees and elbows? Should not footwork / take down defense / avoidance be factored?
Anderson Silva is a great example of a great striker, despite Chael Sonnen managing to take him down at will, whose made a near mockery of opponents standing.
No Longer Rush St. Pierre....
Mayn people bringing Jake Shields into the conversation…JAKE SHIELDS IS OVERRATED, u heard me, a 185 Hendo had him hurt, Mayhem had him in a rear-naked choke and Jake was saved by the bell, hes just a master grappler, he should of lost to Kampmann too…GSP will have his hands FULL with Condit or Diaz, they’re both former champions from other organizations…GSP just plays it way too safe and he’s gna break against diaz/condit
GSP will continue to be champion
By virtue of not fighting until early 2013.
by Scott Whitaker on Jan 3, 2012 9:14 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The Shields fight was terrible, both guys looked terrible
GSP looked terrible. But he won. You have to credit the champ for winning ugly. With that said, he’s goin to be off for a long time. Most guys dont do well immediately after that.
Police have mounted a Phuket-wide hunt
My opinion
Ellenberger- showed that with shields if he can stop those first few takedowns while still fresh, he can land a hard shot and put his opponent to sleep. I think he has the striking and wrestling to give him probably 2 rounds to do the same to gsp, but he’d need to get it done fast or gsp will win the majority of the rounds otherwise. Hendricks would probably have to implement a similar strategy vs gsp. Diaz or condit both are very good off their backs, they wont lay inactive just gettin elbowed like gsp’s last opponents… They have the conditioning & durability to weather gsp and the striking to do damage over the course of the fight to eventually beat him down. also, Diaz is probably one of the very few guys with a realistic shot at tapping gsp out, especially off his back. While gsp is crafty enough to probably win the majority of these matchups via grinding decision, these guys are too destructive and aggressive for me to predict gsp getting past all of them. One of these guys is bound to get him, my guess would be Diaz since I think that’s who’ll be left standing when gsp heals up. Throw in the injury, plus the mental factor and I honestly see Diaz as champ, as crazy as that sounds. Diaz is probably the toughest guy in the division, while gsp shows he’s a bit fragile. Diaz walks forward through every strike, taunting guys like Semtex while they punch him in the face…. And gsp turtles up under the ref, taps to strikes and effectively surrendering his belt. If shields punched up gsp, and that threw gsp off his game, then what do you think is gonna happen when Diaz is lighting him up with combos and taunting him while he does it. Bad matchup for gsp in my opinion, I think that pretty much sums it up.
You do recall Diaz got dropped hard by Daley?
In the same situation against GSP, Diaz is not getting back up. More pertinently, Diaz has got hit by most of his recent opponents, wobbled by Zaromskis, etc. He’s very hittable and his takedown defense sucks, I think if GSP’s knee is recovered he’ll smash Diaz. It might go the distance because Diaz is ludicrously tough, but I suspect Diaz will look like Fitch did.
"Nothin' wrong with an ass whuppin' every now and then. You take away the ass whuppin's and what do you get? You get people wearin' pants below their belly buttons. I'm tellin' you, you go out these days and see the crack of a young lady's butt. It's crazy, man. They should be locked up for indecent exposure. Look here. See? Suspenders! And a belt! I ain't takin' no chances."
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