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Around SBN: UFC 146 Results: Junior dos Santos TKO's Frank Mir

What I Think of Bas Rutten Claiming Alistair Overeem 'Has A Glass Jaw'


Bas Rutten felt like coming out and saying a few things which essentially amounted to: Junior Dos Santos will defeat Alistiar Overeem because Overeem has a glass jaw.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and an awesome guy like Bas Rutten has certainly earned his, but as Obi-Wan Kenobi would say..."Only the Sith deal in absolutes", and in my opinion the fight simply isn't THAT easy to predict.

Star-divide

First off, I'm a fan of both guys, So I don't "Have a dog in this fight" like a certain Mel Gibson might try to say.

Either guy can win. Junior Dos Santos knocks almost everyone out. He's been to a decision twice in the UFC, and in both fights he rocked his opponents severely. He is simply a knockout artist and has massive power in his hands. Alistair Overeem being knocked out by him wouldn't mean Alistair sucks or that he has no chin, because JDS can knock practically anyone out.

But on to that point itself:

Alistair Overeem has no chin - Bas says this is the case because he's taken a lot of damage and has been TKOd/KO'd more than a few times. He's suffered 6 losses by knockout or TKO and 1 was a submission to strikes.

A few things are commonly believed about knockouts. Once you get one, it's easier to suffer another, and the easiest time to get knocked out again is close to the previous knockout. Alistair Overeem suffered 4 of these TKO/strike oriented losses in 14 months. It's safe to say he was taking too many shots and his chin couldn't recover. On top of that, he was taking a lot of fights and arguably overtraining in general...then throw in the fact that he was stil depleting himself to fight at 205 during some of this time. But I think it's also crazy to consider that even when he was suffering these onslaughts...I'm not sure if he was over actually seperated from consciousness and out cold on the canvas. He always seemed heavily rocked and dazed...but still awake.

Another popular line of thought with knockouts is that the longer it's been since your last KO, the better it is for your chin to recover a bit. I believe we've seen a little bit of that with Rodrigo Nogueira. His chin looked completely shot against Mir, seemed back to form against Couture, was blasted again by Velasquez...but after well over a year out, was able to take a few solid shots from Schaub without any real problem.

As far as MMA competition goes, Alistair Overeem has not suffered a knockout or even been rocked since September of 2007...that's nearly 4 and a half years. However, in kickboxing, it hasn't gone as easy. He seemed to be 'dropped' in March of 2009 by Bonjasky, although some contest it as more of a slip. He suffered the '2 knockdowns' from Hari in December of 09 that earned him a TKO loss.

He was rocked in those fights but not formally TKO'd...but even if you want to include that, then Alistair hasn't lost by a form of TKO in ANY fight in over 2 years. He was caught right on the chin with a straight left form Tyrone Spong that Spong literally thrust his whole body into....and that visibly stunned Overeem, but Reem covered up and showed a good ability to keep his composure and was never knocked down. That was December of 2010.

But basically, the damage he has taken in the last 4.5 years is minimal compared to the damage he took in the 2 years before that. If chins do recover...then his has had a pretty good grace period to do so.

Another reason I think Ubereem is able to take a punch better than regular 205 Reem is the fact that he is now muscled up. I'm referring specifically to his neck muscles. They say that beefed up neck muscles can help you take a punch better because it keeps your head/chin from moving as much when you take a big shot.

I mean...to me, between EVERYTHING, the depletion to 205, overtraining, and consecutive damage Overeem took from August of 05 to September of 07...to the fact that he has shown a better ability to take a punch with his uber-neck, to the fact that the last 4.5 years have seen him take far far less damage than those 2....to me, it's all pretty convincing.

I don't believe Alistiar Overeem has the best chin at heavyweight, I wouldn't even say he has one of the best...but in my opinion, he is far from having a 'glass jaw' or 'no chin'

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

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Can’t wait for this fight!

by Afrotikiman on Jan 22, 2012 3:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

I see your point...

But if Tyrone Sprong was able to rock The Reem badly, I have no doubt that JDS will be able to put him down.

"If you think, you're late. If you're late, you muscle. If you muscle, you get tired. If you tired, you die. When you die is when you tap..."
-Saulo Ribeiro

by sklart on Jan 22, 2012 3:32 PM EST reply actions  

Absolutely

JDS can definitely knock out Overeem…Overeem avoiding the knockout against JDS will have to be a result of other tactics….Alistair Overeem can’t and shouldn’t rely on his chin in any fight. No fighter really SHOULD, but some can and do.

Overeem seems very concious of avoiding shots these days, and I think that will absolutely be the cast against JDS. The gameplan obviously isn’t to box and take any of his punches.

I have to assume Overeem will be looking to keep his hands high and tight and work a lot of inside leg kicks and perhaps body kicks. Take the wheels out from JDS so that he isn’t as fast and can’t really put his best effort into his punches.

I think Overeem might consider taking it to the ground as well. JDS hasn’t really been tested there but he also hasn’t really been put there. But if Overeem can first wear JDS out a bit with some low kicks and etc, THEN try to get him down and get it…then Overeem on top is a pretty vicious experience because he is methodical from there.

The most dangerous part of the fight will be early on for Overeem, JDS has a knack for rocking/KOing guys early in the first and blitzing. In fact, I’d love to see some stats on when he tagged Werdum, Struve, Yvel, Gonzaga, Nelson, Carwin and Cain with each of the big shots that initially put them in trouble. Overeem clearly has to do something to make sure that doesn’t happen to him…he absolutely can’t count on taking one of JDS’s punches, of all people.

"You got Floyd Mayweather making 25 million dollars...he can't stop the double leg." - Nick Diaz

by Chris Groves on Jan 22, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Striking-wise

This seems like a bad matchup for the Reem. He struggles with guys who have good footwork and in-and-out movement, both of which are strong points for JDS. The champ does a fantastic job of controlling the range with subtle movements, pushing off his opponent when they get in tight, and the jab. Overeem has serious problems when he’s pushed backwards, and JDS is really, really good at doing that.
I think you’re dead right about his kicking game — Overeem’s shown some very good kicks in the past, but hasn’t used them too extensively; if there were ever a time to do so, it’d be here, especially considering Cain’s initial success with low kicks against JDS. Overeem’s size and length make him much less vulnerable to overhand counters than Cain, as well. If I were his trainer, I’d put together an “all the way in or all the way out” game plan – no sticking around in JDS’ punching range. You’re either kicking or kneeing, but no boxing. There is a path to victory for the Reem, but he has to be ultra-disciplined.

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by Patrick Wyman on Jan 22, 2012 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Id say Reem has a decent chin at the moment, but unless you have an incredible chin ( see Nelson, Roy) you aren’t going to take a JDS hook and stay upright. I think Bas is still angry over the GG thing and much of what he says is biased.

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- Nick Diaz
Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society
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by TheLastEmpress on Jan 22, 2012 3:38 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

what a bomb of a right hand he ate

"My days they are the highway kind, they only come to leave."

by Ak.Death on Jan 23, 2012 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

It actually makes no sense to me.

Because I’m sure he ate a few JDS uppercuts that looked much more powerful than Arlovski’s.

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by T.C. Engel on Jan 23, 2012 12:55 AM EST up reply actions  

JDS may have been pulling his punches after a point.

by lolumad on Jan 23, 2012 1:27 AM EST up reply actions  

It’s the combination of that first right uppercut and then the straight right following the missed left. Some things just hit right at the spot as well.

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by chrisbboy82 on Jan 23, 2012 3:29 AM EST up reply actions  

The punches you don’t see hurt the worse

by Afrotikiman on Jan 24, 2012 8:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The problem with these discussions.......

If you get hit by a HW puncher who is accurate…like JDS…you are going to KOed. Of course their are exceptions , like Big Country, but just about any HW has a chance of KOing any other HW at any given time.
So if Overeem gets Koed, is it because he has lost his chin?..or is it because he just got hit by a VERY hard puncher. If Werdum KOs Big Country, we can start saying " look Roy has a glass jaw now….JDS couldn’t KO him but Werdum just did…." Everyone likes to say how Glass jawed Arlovski has become, but he went 3 rounds with Bigfoot and didn’t get KOed.

These discussions are very subjective….

"Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something"...The Dread Pirate Roberts

by Naztuu on Jan 22, 2012 4:32 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Exactly. Pretty much any HW worth their salt has a chance to get a KO with a flush connection.

Hell, I’ve always thought that a certain percentage of what’s considered to be ‘chin loss’ comes down to the exposure of defensive flaws in the technique of various fighters by the first KO, which are then exploited by every fighter past that point. Hence, time off can be said to improve a chin by allowing the fighter enough self-examination in order to at least improve.

Not saying that Big Nog, for instance, hasn’t obviously declined in overall fortitude, but I just see two KOs in such quick succession being partly the fault of a hitherto unnoticed defensive flaw in his approach.

by Gugabe on Jan 22, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Big Nog has never really been very good defensively when it comes to strikes, he just always relied on his legendary chin to get through. He got absolutely pummeled by Cro Cop in the first round including a full power head kick and the GnP he took from Fedor was unhuman at times. His chin has just failed him as he has aged and he can’t use it as a defensive crutch anymore like earlier.

by Hypnotic on Jan 22, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

never got all the Arlovski hate, all his worst KO losses came from heavy power-punchers (Fedor, Rogers, Kharitonov) I don’t see how you can chalk that up to a “glass chin”, mostly due to poor defensive technique like gugabe said (Kharitonov/Rogers fights) or bad decision making (Fedor fight). It’s also quite ironic and awesome that Arlovski was able to KO the king of all chins, Roy Nelson (terrible ref stand-up notwithstanding.

"My days they are the highway kind, they only come to leave."

by Ak.Death on Jan 22, 2012 5:34 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

If you're consistently getting rocked

it’s either a problem with your defense or a problem with your chin, or both. Yeah, anyone can get KO’d, but if it’s happening ALL THE TIME, the problem’s on your end. Otherwise every HW would get KO’d as often as Arlovski.

Overeem has shored up his defense considerably, but it’s pretty reasonable to think that he has a bad chin. He’s been KO’d like 10 times in kickboxing and MMA combined, he’s been knocked down a couple more times, and he’s taking constant punishment in training. Your chin does not improve with time, especially when you’re training at a place like Golden Glory.

by crazybones on Jan 22, 2012 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying it improves with time

It recovers with time…at least that seems to be the common line of thinking.

Overeem is never going to have the ‘chin’ that he had before he ever got knocked out…but the longer he goes before getting knocked out again…the better it is for him.

Also…I think his added neck muscles significantly aid his ability to take punches as a heavyweight.

"You got Floyd Mayweather making 25 million dollars...he can't stop the double leg." - Nick Diaz

by Chris Groves on Jan 23, 2012 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

That's another thing I'm wondering about.

A lot of his losses are very ‘TKO’-ish, he gets tired, gets tagged, goes wobbly, is sort of getting swarmed…but I don’t think he’s ever been left sleeping on the mat.

Not saying he can’t be rocked or put out cold, I just think it sort of leads you to believe that it might be a question of composure and cardio playing their parts as well…he’s tired, taking shots, wigging out because he is now taking shots, losing his head, doesn’t know how to respond etc etc

I mean, Lesnar was never put out cold by Carwin or Cain…but his response to getting hit was not the best…

I’m not saying Overeem and Lesnar are the same in this situation, but they may have been similar…with Overeem sort of ‘training’ and conditioning himself to not lose his cool when he tastes a heavy shot…to try and respond and recover and get his wits about him before the punches start coming too fast for him to get back into the fight.

"You got Floyd Mayweather making 25 million dollars...he can't stop the double leg." - Nick Diaz

by Chris Groves on Jan 23, 2012 2:10 AM EST up reply actions  

EVER

Even sleep cannot still the Reem.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/1/9/2694756/first-bjj-lesson
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/1/10/2697690/second-bjj-lesson
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/1/17/2713173/third-bjj-lesson

by Terra17 on Jan 23, 2012 8:24 AM EST up reply actions  

No it doesn’t. How would it recover if he’s constantly taking punches in training – especially at at gym like Golden Glory, which is notorious for hard training sessions?

by crazybones on Jan 23, 2012 1:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't think he's training and getting hit to the point of getting a concussion

I mean, I think THAT’s most important…not being hit at all.

"You got Floyd Mayweather making 25 million dollars...he can't stop the double leg." - Nick Diaz

by Chris Groves on Jan 23, 2012 2:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Not really. David Castillo had a fantastic series of articles a while back about athletes and brain damage – basically, it doesn’t matter if you’re not getting full-blown concussions. Jolting the brain hundreds of times a day, even with headgear, is going to fuck it up.

And just so you know, there’s a pretty good chance Alistair did get KO’d at Golden Glory. They’re notorious for going hard ever Wednesday and trying to destroy each other.

by crazybones on Jan 23, 2012 2:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Bas is just getting vengeance...

for Reem fucking over his boy Bas Boon. Anything Bas says about Overeem from the GG split on is useless.

Things that one appreciates more as they get older: Neil Young, seltzer and grappling.

by John Danaher's Hair on Jan 22, 2012 5:08 PM EST reply actions   2 recs

yeah

and anything he had to say about Overeem before the split is useless as well.

-

Don’t think Overeem has a “glass jaw” but I do think JDS is going to knock him out.

swan diving off the tongues of crippled giants

by Grappo on Jan 22, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

I think logically Overeem has to be the favorite against JDS.

Dos Santos has arguably superior boxing, and definitely faster hands, but Overeem has the edge literally everywhere else. Distance striking goes to Overeem, as does clinch work, trips, throws and probably ground work. As long as he can close the pocket, Alistair will have a serious advantage.

People are also forgetting JDS doesn’t have the best striking defense or head movement, Nelson landed some big overhand punches on him when they fought.

by lolumad on Jan 22, 2012 10:21 PM EST reply actions  

JDS is going to open up the favorite

Overeem is not a good defensive fighter and JDS hits everyone he has ever faced hard. Historically Overeem has lost to almost every good MMA striker he has ever faced.

by discoandherpes on Jan 23, 2012 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Overeem is the most punishing striker in the UFC.

I admit I haven’t seen most of his fights, but I’ve seen enough of him at HW, monster (“uber”) size to believe that JDS is the one who is going up against something he’s never seen before, not Reem.

by Dustinovsky on Jan 22, 2012 10:22 PM EST reply actions  

Overeem has been up against guys like JDS before

The problem is that he’s lost to a majority of them.

by discoandherpes on Jan 23, 2012 9:46 AM EST up reply actions  

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