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Examining Lorenzo Fertitta & UFC's Response To ESPN 'Outside The Lines'

NEW YORK NY - JANUARY 13:  Lorenzo Fertitta UFC Chairman and CEO looks on during a press conference to announce commitment to bring UFC to Madison Square Garden and New York State at Madison Square Garden on January 13 2011 in New York City.  (Photo by Michael Cohen/Getty Images)

In the wake of the ESPN "Outside the Lines" feature talking about UFC fighter pay one of the biggest discussion points has been the UFC's first released video of what amounts to an outtake of the Lorenzo Fertitta interview. In this video, Lorenzo makes an attempt at a "gotcha" by pointing out that on Friday Night Fights (on ESPN2) fighter pay is fairly low. He even singles out a fighter who made $275 on a Friday Night Fights card in Vegas.

Scott Christ of Bad Left Hook broke down Lorenzo's argument in a recent article:

First of all, ESPN is not a fight promoter. This is an enormous difference. For a UFC card on FX, the UFC is pretty much in control of everything. ESPN just airs fights. They have the right to turn down a proposed fight, but that's about it. Everything is really up to the promoters of the actual fight card.

They are a network that broadcasts a low-budget boxing series for nine months out of the year. To compare Friday Night Fights to a UFC show on cable is an attempt at trickery at best. It's just not the same thing.

The budget for FNF is small: $100,000 per show. This is not a big-time showcase for top fighters. It is, more or less, somewhere for prospects and mid-tier veterans to fight.

He also talked about the fighter who was paid $275 and what exactly that means:

Fertitta claims, and I'm sure he's telling the truth, that someone fought on Friday Night Fights in a four-round bout for $275. What Fertitta doesn't reveal -- or perhaps does not actually know -- is that anyone in a four-round fight that winds up on the broadcast, on TV, was positioned in a swing fight that was going to air only if there was time remaining in the two-hour time slot. There are no four-round fights purposely scheduled to air on ESPN's series. A four-round fight is the lowest level of professional boxing, and frankly to call the majority of four-round bouts "professional boxing" is kind of a stretch; the fighters don't often resemble what we're used to seeing on TV, even from the middle-of-the-pack guys that get on ESPN or HBO or Showtime. It's kind of like comparing high school football to the NFL most of the time.

The UFC line is that everyone on their roster is there because they're among the best in the world. Obviously no one is being paid $275 to fight on a UFC card, but Friday Night Fights is not known to be, nor is it advertised as being, a showcase for the world's best boxers.

Follow after the jump for much more...

Star-divide

The Friday Night Fights card in Vegas prior to that interview would have been the July 29, 2011 show headlined by Lamont Peterson vs. Victor Cayo. There were only two four round fights on the card and if I had to guess who the guy getting a low rate of pay was, I'd assume it was Timothy Hall Jr. Hall entered the night with a 6-11 record, but had lost ten of his previous twelve bouts. There's also a possibility that it was Razvan Cojanu, a local Vegas heavyweight who came into the night with an 0-1 record and, despite winning and only being 24 (an age where boxers fight every couple months) has not fought since.

I can't stress enough how bizarre I find the defending of Lorenzo's larger point. I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with fighter pay in the UFC. I'd like to see mid-tier guys get a little bit more of a boost and I think the $6,000 to show, $6,000 to win model for undercard guys should be changed to a flat $10,000 (or something in that neighborhood) as it's crippling for guys to show up after a camp, lose a tough fight and walk away with $6,000 (yes, in disclosed pay). But those aren't huge issues.

The problem is with treating Lorenzo's argument like it's some heavy blow to ESPN. The deep undercard of a small boxing card with a limited budget like you get with Friday Night Fights is made up of prospects just starting out, local fighters filling spots and warm bodies being put in the ring to give a better fighter some experience. That's not in any way similar to what the UFC is supposed to represent, where even guys in a curtain jerker role on a card are supposed to represent someone near the pinacle of the sport.

If anything, I think the UFC is overreacting to a feature piece by ESPN that, while not particularly flattering, wasn't exactly the a sledgehammer to the credibility of the UFC. I think the amount of attention they're giving it, with swinging back with a video like this (which falls apart under any sort of critical thinking) they're not doing anything but appeasing their own fans by giving them something to shout about. It doesn't prove anything, it doesn't actually make ESPN look bad and it only serves to further the "us vs. them" narrative.

But maybe that's just what they actually set out to do.

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the UFC rarely backs down when it is slandered

it’s what makes this sport extreme, it’s in your face and filled with attitude

by I'vegotthepower on Jan 16, 2012 9:11 AM EST reply actions  

Except the UFC is not the sport, MMA is, and their attitude makes them appear extremely childish and silly.

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by Unabomberman on Jan 16, 2012 7:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

it only serves to further the “us vs. them” narrative.

This is right. They weren’t interested in an actual discussion on fighter pay, and I don’t think espn was based on the way they handled this situation.

The UFC is overreacting because the piece wasn’t that damning, but they promised clips, so they’re going to give them.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 9:22 AM EST reply actions  

Maybe, but I’m sure that will come in time. Why release the whole, long, boring thing at first when you can cut it up and make idiotic points.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 9:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately, I agree

It seems like a politician’s response in a bitter campaign. What he should have brought up are the positives like the new health insurance, the enormous costs of the production that the UFC is putting on the line, the expanding to different areas of the world. As much as the sport its growing there are huge expanses that go with it.

by Coeman on Jan 16, 2012 9:25 AM EST reply actions  

I think Lorenzo did bring those up, and they made the final cut

Certainly he brought up the costs of in-house production. I can’t remember if he brought up the accident liability insurance.

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by KJ Gould on Jan 16, 2012 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

The insurance was not brought up

Gross should have brought this up it when asked not a single story about Dan Miller. The story seemed very one sided.

by Coeman on Jan 16, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

The response may seem political

However, Lorenzo use to be a member of the commission and is privy to a lot of info pertaining to boxers. He may have been fighting fire with fire, but at least he knew the facts before attempting before attacking head on. While ESPN used some disgruntled or blackballed sources like Kenny and Monte Cox.

by BrothaDarkness on Jan 16, 2012 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

What is "what the market will bear" for the UFC?

$50 for “just bleed” brawls? I always thought the UFC was distinguished by its genuine embrace of skill and technique alongside the favorites fight style of its core demographic.

by Sabate on Jan 16, 2012 9:35 AM EST up reply actions  

They can do that and not pay more than they have to.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 9:38 AM EST up reply actions  

By doing so they are paying more than they have to.

Let’s face it: the UFC could cut quite a few journeymen/veterans, save some salary money and pay novice fighters who are willing to stand-and-bang, and they wouldn’t take a substantial hit in their PPV revenue. So why don’t they do that?

by Sabate on Jan 16, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions  

you pay whatever you have to pay to make the most money. Random people standing and banging doesn’t pay as much as being the best fighters in the world, they need to find the middle ground in doing both and have done it better than everyone else so far.

If they cut the people you are talking about and replaced them with nobodies they would lose ground to whoever signed those guys.

That’s why the UFC makes more money than Bob’s fighting shack, and the NFL makes more than Arena football.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Could you elaborate on what you mean by “what the market will bear”? When you consider the history of baseball salaries, before Marvin Miller and free agency, teams were clearly paying less than “what the market would bear” because they could lock players into lifetime contracts and pay them very much less than their “market” value.

One of the points I agree with in the ESPN story is that the lower-end UFC fighters would greatly benefit from a fighters union. The problem is that higher-end fighters would gain nothing and probably lose a great deal in that bargain… and they’re the only ones the UFC needs to keep happy.

Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.

by Stanlee on Jan 16, 2012 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

It means that the UFC will pay as little as it has to to get good fighters, and at a higher level, to get draws. They pay Hendo hundreds of thousands because that’s what Hendos cost; as long as entry level guys are willing to fighter for $6000, then that is what an entry level guy costs. If every entry level guy wants $10,000, that becomes the floor – same if talented guys show up for $1000/fight contracts.

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by outlander78 on Jan 16, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I think your rationale is a bit circuitous.

But I think you’re misunderstanding me. My contention is that the UFC is already paying quite a bit more than it could for many winning fighters who are “boring.” It could cut costs by shedding these fighters more quickly and hiring cheaper fighters who are willing to have standing slugfests.

This is what the market will bear. In fact, they could arguably improve their PPV revenue by significantly cutting the number of wrestling-based fights. So why don’t they do so?

by Sabate on Jan 16, 2012 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Sabate, you're right, I was misunderstanding you

Thanks for the clarification.

Stanlee, what I mean by “what the market will bear” is that there’s a market for MMA fighters, which is set by how much money promoters can make off MMA fighters. The UFC wants to be the market leader and therefore it’s paying exactly what it thinks it needs to pay in order to remain the market leader.

Baseball wasn’t a free market pre-Marvin Miller. It was a cartel in which the owners colluded with each other to keep salaries down. But MMA isn’t the same: The UFC, Bellator, Dream, M-1, Shark Fights, etc. are business competitors in a way that the Yankees, Red Sox, Pirates, Tigers, Dodgers, etc. are not.

by MichaelDavidSmith on Jan 16, 2012 10:31 AM EST up reply actions  

so ur saying

The market can only bear to pay Aldo 48k to headline a card? I call BS. To me the injustice isnt so much the 6k/6k nobodys, its the top guys getting railed sometimes. Carwin made 50k to fight Lesnar. 50k for a HW title fight? GTFO. What market is it where the UFC can gross millions and pay the champ 48k? Greed pure and simple. And they will kill the golden goose if they don’t pay up a little.
Ever wonder why Dana gets freakishly defensive about this stuff? He knows he’s robbing these guys

This will not stand man, this aggression will not stand!

by RearNakedToke on Jan 16, 2012 10:49 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

you don’t understand how the market works. If someone could afford to pay Aldo 49k, they would, but they can’t.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

49k? I don't think Aldo is ready for Anderson Silva money...

"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."

by menckenstein on Jan 16, 2012 11:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Everyone is ready for anderson silva money, doesn’t mean they are going to get it.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Not this time...

"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."

by menckenstein on Jan 16, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

this is hardly a pure "free market" experiment

And i dont think any of u are considering the secondary consequences. I.Em. if i’m jose aldo, i would rather claim an injury and spend the next 9 months raking in $ as a champ outside the cage than rush back in to collect my 50k. And we wonder why these top guys are constantly injured…
Its not about what another promotion can pay, its about giving these guys incentive to fight. When they make waaaayyyy more out of the cage then why fight more than once a year and risk losing it all?

This will not stand man, this aggression will not stand!

by RearNakedToke on Jan 16, 2012 11:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

another example

If ur Anthony Johnson, are u worried about making weight so u dont have to give away 20% of ur purse? Isn’t a win worth much more than 20% here? 20% in this case is prolly what, 5k? Its a joke. U get KO of the night and u get 65k! Why would u ever make weight?

This will not stand man, this aggression will not stand!

by RearNakedToke on Jan 16, 2012 11:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

or Anderson for example

Dude just signed several huge sponorship deals. Why would u risk a year where u stand to make $5-10 million to rush in there and fight a roided up maniac? If i were him my shoulder would hurt too.
Last example, I promise. :-)

This will not stand man, this aggression will not stand!

by RearNakedToke on Jan 16, 2012 11:42 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Why would you ever make weight?

So you wake up on Sunday morning with a job. If he made weight and lost, there is no way he gets cut.

"Life isn't Fucking fair! Deal with it." Dad.

by Joben on Jan 16, 2012 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

i get that

This will not stand man, this aggression will not stand!

by RearNakedToke on Jan 16, 2012 12:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i get that

This will not stand man, this aggression will not stand!

by RearNakedToke on Jan 16, 2012 12:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

i get that

It was a hypothetical. If u miss weight by 11 lbs ur prolly in trouble either way. Especially when u have missed several times. Hypothetically a fighter could choose to miss weight once or twice (by a few lbs) if he felt it would help him win.
Just pointing out that threatening to take away a portion of a purse means very little when the purse is so small

This will not stand man, this aggression will not stand!

by RearNakedToke on Jan 16, 2012 12:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

A few extra pounds is far from a guaranteed win. Wouldn’t it suck to lose 20% of your purse and still lose (like Johnson)? It is smarter to just make weight, keep your boss in good graces, and maximize your potential earnings.

As for Anderson, if he stops taking fights the sponsorship money is going to go away. If he wants to only take enough fights to keep the sponsors happy, then that is his choice. And you’re right, it is up to the UFC to offer him enough money to get him back in the cage. That is part of the reason why he makes “Anderson Silva Money.” If Aldo starts getting opportunities outside of the cage, the UFC will have to pay him that kind of money.

by alxn on Jan 16, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep, what one company will pay is what the market will bear – in a monopoly

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Jan 16, 2012 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

but no one who pays more than the UFC can survive, so monopoly or not, it’s what the market will bear.

Who was going to drive up prices after Pride died? Who was going to do it after Affliction died?

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Especially if the UFC buys them out or counter programs their PPV's

" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico lose a ball in the Sun? "

by aaronb on Jan 17, 2012 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

The ufc buying them out is more of that free market stuff. If someone thought they could make money with those companies, they would have outbid the UFC.

Every other form of entertainment in the universe is constantly counterprogramming the others, the good one’s survive.

by Phildo on Jan 17, 2012 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

What the market will bear?

What market? Who can match or exceed any offer made by the UFC? There is no “market” when there are no competitors for your services. That $6K is about $5K more than they’d make anywhere else, so it’s not like they can say: “No, I want more”.

by supermario305 on Jan 16, 2012 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

If that’s true, they are getting overpaid and people shouldn’t be complaining.

There is no market because everyone who has tried to make more has died, that’s part of the market. If they really start screwing the fighters (like people thought they were when they started Pride, or like people thought they did when they started Affliction) then someone will come along and pay them more. That’s how the world works.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 8:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Zuffa's response is predictable, and effective

They feel the ESPN piece was unfair to them, so they are accusing ESPN of the same sins. Now ESPN, who places themselves as an unbiased source of information, has to explain how they aren’t promoters of FNF, etc.

So, Zuffa is now placing ESPN in the same position ESPN placed Zuffa, thus in the eyes of the public neutralizing the original accusation.

The strategy, I believe, effectively kill any chance of the issue gaining any traction in the larger media sphere, not that there was much chance of that happening anyway. The fight is now seen as a boxing promoter vs a MM promoter.

Yes, factually, the Zuffa argument is wrong. But it is a good PR strategy.

"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Proud member of Trainyard Sleepers, BECW: S2
We're gonna win, you know. Stats lie.

by duck on Jan 16, 2012 9:33 AM EST reply actions  

Effective?

Maybe

But then I don’t completely see how pissing off the biggest sports news organization in the world will benefit Zuffa and company in the long run…

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by jack knight starman on Jan 16, 2012 9:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

people need to get over this.

They treated the card this weekend the same, or possibly better than they have covered cards in the past.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I think it’s kind of weird that people are acting like ESPN is “at war” with the UFC. They did a somewhat critical feature piece about a controversial issue…same as they’ve done with EVERY major sport. They could have ignored UFC 142 completely and it wouldn’t have impacted the network at all, but they didn’t. They had the results on the front page of the .com and featured stuff on Sportscenter.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 16, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Well I think it’s because ESPN did the story and didn’t include that fighters on their own network get paid a fraction of what UFC fighters get. (Yes they don’t control the pay, but, it still should have been included in the story.) Journalists go where the story goes even if it might make their employer not look so great right?

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by jrobb20 on Jan 16, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

But the piece is about a company that has established a near-monopoly (not a bad thing in my eyes, btw) on the sport and the top talent and thus has ultimate control over how much they get paid to fight at the highest levels of the sport.

Friday Night Fights isn’t in that category at all. It’s a low end boxing show where the lowest paid guys don’t have to accept the fights, but the promoters are putting them on cards for fights they agree to because they need the in-ring work. It’s not a comparable thing at all beyond “both involve guys fighting.”

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by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 16, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

People think Dana’s tweets or this Lorenzo video are going to somehow cause ESPN to “fight back” when they really don’t (and shouldn’t) give a shit.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Its really weird – do people actually think ESPN is one guy making all the decisions based on his own interests and vendettas?

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Jan 16, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

But

you can’t let ESPN bend you over a barrel and just take it either. Plus ESPN’s death grip on their sports coverage monopoly is starting to loosen. They are losing a lot of their power to the internet that can report and break news stories blog sites like these. And NBC just rebranded Versus and in the near future I think will challenge ESPN very vigorously for the TV side of sports coverage and events.

I love hockey and hockey fans went through the same thing. ESPN treated the NHL like dog crap sticking it on ESPN 2, barely covering, and then having on air talent make fun of hockey. Well the NHL had enough and went to OLN . People were saying “We need to get back with ESPN, we can’t survive with out them.” Well Hockey is now in a very good spot in a place that respects it. The UFC did the same thing with FOX and I think it will be much better for them. ESPN can go to Hell.

by Karl12 on Jan 16, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

hockey is also a completely different story. Hockey went from being on espn multiple nights a week, plus a daily nhl show, plus good billing on Sportscenter, to literally nothing. That hurt a lot.

ESPN isn’t going to go out of their way to attack the UFC, their biggest crime against the NHL was doing nothing, They are already doing that with the UFC.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

You have the ESPN/NHL story wrong

The NHL got all kinds of coverage on ESPN when they had the rights. Post-lockout, ESPN recognized the position of power they were in, and basically told the NHL they would show it if the rights were effectively free. The NHL (short-sightedly IMO) took a better $$$$ deal from Versus, and only then did ESPN stop doing good coverage.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 16, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe they got some decent coverage from ESPN in the beginning of their contract, but when ESPN got the rights to the NBA they pretty much moved the NHL ignored hockey all together. They took them completely off ESPN and put them on ESPN 2, they gave the axe to an excellent NHL Tonight show, and they had little to no advertising for upcoming games, and had hardly any highlights on SportsCenter until the Stanley Cup. And even then it was less than ten minuets.

ESPN was in a position of power and thought with there arrogance could bully the NHL to agreeing with there demands. But the NHL said screw you and went to a place that respected them. I don’t know how it was short sighted of them to take the deal with OLN. Sure it was a gamble but, the NHL went from a league that lost an entire season and was struggling to a healthy and exciting product. And OLN went from a hunting and fishing channel to now being the NBC Sports Network that will be a player and a challenger to ESPN in the 24 hour sports business. The NHL is now on a network that cares and promotes them, instead of being overshadowed by poker. Smart move by the NHL imo.

by Karl12 on Jan 16, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

1. NHL2Night ran until 2004 when ESPN lost the rights

2. While I can’t vouch 100% for the highlight packages of 2004, ESPN was giving them Sportscenter love. That was back when Sportscenter was about highlights and not “analysis”. ESPN pimped Arena Football when they had the rights to that, I’m pretty sure they were doing the same for the NHL. ESPN gives the NHL more than 10 minutes for the Stanley Cup now—-methinks you’re really going with some hyperbole here.

3. ESPN2 is a MUCH bigger network than Versus. Games right now on Versus get 200-600k viewers. ESPN2’s 365 day 24 hour average is 276k—-that includes the 4 AM re-runs of MMA Live on a Sunday morning.

4. It was shortsighted because they completely capped their ceiling for the grand total of $130 million over 2 years (the original Versus contract)—-3.25M a year per team for 2 years! ESPN’s position was only there for the first contract. I’m basically positive that the exposure ESPN gives a sport would have allowed the NHL to make up $130 million over the next 14 years that they will be stuck with Versus/NBC Sports. I mean Pardon the Interruption on Wednesday did 50% more viewers than the highest rated Versus game this year.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 16, 2012 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

The NHL signed a 10 year, 2 Billion dollar deal in April to be NBC Sport’s flagship league.

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by Ruben Tisch on Jan 17, 2012 2:09 AM EST up reply actions  

It seems like all the UFC is doing here is responding to ESPN’s criticisms by saying “well, isn’t the pot calling the kettle black!” Obviously it’s not meant as a deep and final refutation of the original argument, but it is an extremely common rhetorical device which does usually carry weight.

Maybe I’m just not capable of critical thought though.

Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.

by Stanlee on Jan 16, 2012 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

That's pretty much what they're doing.

"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Proud member of Trainyard Sleepers, BECW: S2
We're gonna win, you know. Stats lie.

by duck on Jan 16, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

ESPN at least partly to blame for boxer's low pay.

UFC = Content creator + distributor
ESPN = Distributor
Boxing promoter = Content creator

If the fighter walked out after his match with only 275 USD, ESPN definitely deserves part of the blame here, just as much as the boxing promoter.

Given the amount of value ESPN extracts from the boxers in Friday Night Lights, they have a responsibility towards them, just like the boxing promoter that brought them to the arena.

by Ectoras on Jan 16, 2012 9:41 AM EST reply actions  

Friday Night FIGHTS

Lights is a TV show about football.

They pay the liscence fee and broadcast the fights, they have nothing to do with how much money the fighters make. You can blame promoters for that and even then, those are low level guys and low level guys don’t get paid a lot in any job.

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by IRodC on Jan 16, 2012 10:57 AM EST up reply actions  

ESPN pays the promoters and the promoters pay the boxers, so ESPN obviously has something to do with how much the boxers get paid. They choose not to get involved because legally they don’t have to.

Ethically however, they are an integral part of the boxing ecosystem, so at the very least they should leverage their superior market position and negotiate with the promoters better purses for the boxers.

by Ectoras on Jan 16, 2012 11:38 AM EST up reply actions  

What you just did was light the rainforest on fire and now it’s gone.

ESPN has friday night fights to have a low-cost feature show for 2-3 boxing matches a week featuring young prospects or slightly past their prime veterans. It’s also a place where low end guys get decent paydays (most of the guys make over $1,200 for their fights) beyond what they normally would to round out the card. If ESPN has to start paying more for a show that doesn’t do huge business for them already…they’ll just take it off the air.

By the way, they have recently increased the budget for these shows so they are doing that to some extent. But there’s a ceiling to how much they can realistically raise it.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 16, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Low-cost means nothing. This isnt a smoker bout we’re talking about.

ESPN should be advocating the boxers’ right for more money continuously, every time they’re negotiating a deal. As of right now, neither ESPN nor the promoters are looking out for low level boxers. Considering the exposure boxing has gotten over the decades, its a shame people are still getting paid 3 digit figures to fight on TV.

As far as the UFC goes, 2 – 3 years ago the base salary for an entry level UFC fighter was 4,000 + 4,000 USD. Today its 6,000 + 6,000 USD. As long as this figure keeps rising, the skepticists should keep among themselves.

by Ectoras on Jan 16, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

but blame for what?

For having a promoter pay a low end boxer (who’d probably make $100 in a club in front of 15 people otherwise) a low amount? I keep hearing they should be to blame, but what kind of pay should the guy have gotten?

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 16, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

People are also ignoring that these fights are designed to get the fighter recognition so he can earn more money on the open market. The UFC isn’t anagolous because there is no open market

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Jan 16, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

What people are ignoring

Is that there isn’t much of an open market because the people that used to pay MMA fighters more than the UFC does folded.

Strikeforce, which is and was profitable, pays less than the UFC.

WEC, which was profitable, pays less than the UFC.

Bellator is all that’s left, and they don’t seem to be very successful at prying those lower tier fighters from the UFC’s contracts so… they probably pay less.

If a company’s competitors that paid more went out of business, that DOES mean the open market can’t support the higher salaries yet.

Also, Brent’s argument is not actually great critical logic either. He’s saying ESPN’s show is exempt from this low-salary argument because it specifically highlights unknowns. Well, UFC fighters making less than 10,000 are exactly those same MMA guys that are relative unknowns who don’t have much box office draw. If you’re saying UFC can afford to pay everyone more, you can ALSO still say that ESPN can afford to pay more for Friday Night Fights guys, because ESPN surely has far more advertising money than the UFC gets. Lorenzo’s logic does not fail here at all.

by spamslots on Jan 16, 2012 10:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's see, who else

Pride basically folded before it was bought. Wasn’t Dream having problems paying its fighters? I forget.

In a professional sport, it’s easier (and arguably better) to keep athlete’s salaries low until they can be sustainably be paid more than to pay too much and have an unprofitable company that suddenly needs to negotiate salaries down (ahem, NBA teams!) or go bankrupt.

by spamslots on Jan 16, 2012 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I keep hearing how ESPN is this #1 media source and how the UFC needs them to advance the sport. My question is does anyone really watch ESPN anymore? I couldnt tell you the last time I watched Sportscenter. Their pre game/post games shows are aweful too. The over-the-top broadcasting has killed ESPN along with the MLB, NFL and football conference networks. ESPN is a joke nowadays.

by eckoltz on Jan 16, 2012 9:42 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

If ESPN is the #1 sports media source in the World then I’d say, ya someone must be watching them.

I do everything in my life so my family will love me and my friends will respect me. Everyone else can do as they please

by jack knight starman on Jan 16, 2012 9:46 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Yes, lots of people watch ESPN

Monday Night Football and the BCS bowls are the most-watched programming on all of cable television.

by MichaelDavidSmith on Jan 16, 2012 10:04 AM EST up reply actions  

Uhh yes

TV ratings

ESPN Towers Over Cable Primetime Adults 18-49 & Viewership, Also Wins Total Day Viewership For Week Ending January 8, 2012

ESPN Towers Over Cable Primetime Adults 18-49 & Viewership For Week Ending January 1, 2012

ESPN Tops Cable Primetime Adults 18-49 & Viewership For Week Ending December 25, 2011

ESPN & USA Split Primetime Cable Lead For Week Ending December 11, 2011

ESPN Tops Primetime Cable Ratings & Viewership For Week Ending December 4, 2011

ESPN Wins Primetime Cable in Adults 18-49 and Total Viewers For Week Ending November 27, 2011

ESPN Tops Primetime Cable Ratings & Viewership For Week Ending November 20, 2011

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 16, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

You can't let ESPN off the hook for this

If they’re trying to take the moral high ground to bash UFC on fighter pay, to say they’re just distributors unable to do anything about low pay for their show doesn’t hold water. They’re ESPN. If they wanted to do something about fighter pay for their show, they have an obligation to do so, and not duck it.

I'm not impressed by your performance......

by closetasfan on Jan 16, 2012 9:56 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Never

Someone affilliated with ESPN bashing ESPN pretty much means you will be let go. Nobody wants to lose their job.

Greatest lover ever during the day, Trainyard Sleeper at night.

by IRodC on Jan 16, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Exactly, which is why OTL isn’t serious journalism.

I don't know what the world may need but a V8 engines a good start for me.

by jrobb20 on Jan 16, 2012 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

…I’m curious what journalistic outlets you think do critical pieces abut themselves?

Effectively, by running pieces critical of the NFL, NBA, MLB..etc. They have done plenty of stuff about their own product given that they broadcast events and news about those leagues

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 16, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Woodward and Bernstein couldn’t be more proud.

I don't know what the world may need but a V8 engines a good start for me.

by jrobb20 on Jan 16, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

They never wrote an Expose on The Washington Post.

http://twitter.com/rtisch312 Inaine thoughts and ramblings about sports and life.

by Ruben Tisch on Jan 17, 2012 2:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Talk to their ombudsmen

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Jan 16, 2012 2:13 PM EST up reply actions  

If, as Brent and others have contended, ESPN will retaliate against it’s own reporters for daring to present stories that might include items that reflect negatively on ESPN, I don’t expect contacting the Ombudsmen would be worth the effort.

I don't know what the world may need but a V8 engines a good start for me.

by jrobb20 on Jan 16, 2012 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Again..

I’m going to keep asking it until someone answers.

Why does anyone think that the fighter involved should make more than what he made?

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 16, 2012 11:34 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm not aware of anyone arguing that the $275 fighter should have made more

What I am aware of is people arguing that a journalist looking to do a piece on the low pay of combat sports athletes would be wise to focus first on the lowest-paid combat sports athletes. And those athletes are much more likely to be found on Friday Night Fights than in the UFC.

by MichaelDavidSmith on Jan 16, 2012 11:39 AM EST up reply actions  

But as I said above, the segment focused on the UFC’s control over the MMA scene and what that allows them to do in terms of limiting fighter pay. FNF has no control over boxing. It’s a weekly event with a fixed budget.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 16, 2012 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Right, but the whole premise was flawed

Early in the segment, Ken Shamrock says the UFC is the only place an MMA fighter can make a living, and ESPN presents that unchallenged. And you and I both know that’s not the case.

by MichaelDavidSmith on Jan 16, 2012 11:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, well, I’m not really arguing that. I’m only talking about the FNF pay here and the continued idea that ESPN has been “exposed” in some way because of the Lorenzo video.

I’m not really defending the ESPN piece, merely the FNF thing.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 16, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

I’m mostly interested in the video the UFC released because the media nerd in me finds it to be an interesting PR strategy, and it has me curious whether anyone I’ve ever interviewed has taped it without telling me in order to release the tape if they don’t like the way I present it. I do agree with the criticism that Lorenzo is making an apples-to-oranges comparison.

by MichaelDavidSmith on Jan 16, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s a really cool PR strategy when done well and you see politicians do it all the time to make sure they’re being treated fairly. I just wonder if that’s the best moment they really got out of it.

But really, even if I disagree with what the video said and think it’s an odd moment to release from the interview, it’s probably actually genius since it flipped the entire discussion to where now it’s “is it fair to compare UFC pay to low end boxing card pay?” rather than “does the UFC pay enough?”

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 16, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Where else can these guys make a living? What promotions are running enough fights to give a guy enough to afford to train and feed his family?

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Jan 16, 2012 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

it isn’t the UFC’s job to make sure everyone that wants to be a fighter can feed his family.

If you live in a town where the only job is a car plant and there are 50 jobs, the 51st guy is fucked. Fighting is no different. If someone can afford to pay fighter X more than zuffa, they will do it, if no one can afford to outpay zuffa, then zuffa is paying the right amount.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re arguing against a point I’m not making – I’m responding to the statement that there are other US organizations in which they can make a living fighting.

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Jan 17, 2012 1:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I don’t know why you’re limiting it to the US, but Bellator is right there. Wherever Ricco has been fighting since he left the UFC, whoever is airing on HDNet this week.

by Phildo on Jan 17, 2012 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Bellator’s existence alone nullifies any argument that the UFC is a monopoly. And that’s without mentionning the other hundred’s of promotion in North America alone.

by Shnak on Jan 17, 2012 7:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Actually,

Rodriguez said that he is doing well fighting in Japan and Europe.

by Coeman on Jan 16, 2012 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

That's the point!
Why does anyone think that [UFC fighters] involved should make more than what [they] make?

Every fairness, safety, or “greedy owners” angle you want to take against 6/6 applies just as well to a $275 fighter bar brawler. No, it’s not a great debate point, but this isn’t a debate it’s PR. If ESPN is going to get morally righteous about 6/6, why didn’t they get morally righteous about $275?

But to answer your question: ESPN/promoters paid that guy $275 because that’s what he’s worth; the UFC pays entry level guys 6/6 because that’s what they’re worth.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 16, 2012 11:47 AM EST up reply actions   2 recs

As stated in the actual article, I have no real major problem with the UFC pay scale. I just keep wondering why people consider this single non-comparable case on FNF to be some great moment of torching the network.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 16, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh it's definitely not some big deal, I can't even come up with hyperbole strong enough to describe how little ESPN cares

But I thought it was pretty clever from the UFC’s perspective. This really isn’t about ESPN vs. the UFC in the least—-it’s ‘one single OTL daytime TV story that they don’t really care about’ vs the UFC.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jan 16, 2012 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

it’s ‘one single OTL daytime TV story that they don’t really care about’ vs the UFC.

Exactly

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either." - Dan Hardy

by Day Man on Jan 16, 2012 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s not a great moment of torching the network. But it will certainly look like it to some people.

Greatest lover ever during the day, Trainyard Sleeper at night.

by IRodC on Jan 16, 2012 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

It would never happen

But the easiest way for the UFC to make this go away would be to open their books. If they show what they’re paying fighters (including insurance, etc.) as a function of their net profits, and it’s at least somewhat comparable to what players make in sports with a CBA, wouldn’t that go a long way towards clearing this up? Even if it was less, you could explain that away if they’re spending significantly more on marketing (as you would expect for a sport that’s trying to grow its market).

Now, if they opened their books and the amount they’re paying fighters is significantly less than, say, Dana’s Lamborghini fund, that would be a whole different issue.

by Damnatio Memoriae on Jan 16, 2012 10:05 AM EST reply actions  

You can’t expect it to be comparable to what other sports get through collective bargaining without collective bargaining.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't expect it to

I’m saying the easiest way for Zuffa to clear the air would be to be open and honest about it, rather than resorting to ad hominem attacks. I don’t think they’ll do that, because I think it would create more problems than it would solve.

by Damnatio Memoriae on Jan 16, 2012 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

they don’t want to, or need to clear the air.

by Phildo on Jan 16, 2012 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

as SBnation user duck said yesterday

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/1/15/2709816/ufc-espn-lorenzo-fertitta-espn-interview-clip-boxing-outside-the-lines#88832199

If you’re explaining, you’re losing.

Perception is perceived, and quite frankly, there’s quite a bit to it, as closetasfan just said a couple replies up, if you’re going to be doing some sort of expose on low fighter pay, how do you get to be the distributor for said low fighter pay and maintain any sort of moral high ground on this?

Listen, I like ESPN and OTL a lot, but they didn’t really have their ducks in a row when they went on this story. There are plenty of ways to argue that fighters in all combat sports need better pay, but interviewing Ken Shamrock isn’t going to gain you a whole lot of credibility.

The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
Please read my sardonic wit and over-blown sense of self over at headkicklegend.com

by Cory Braiterman on Jan 16, 2012 10:24 AM EST reply actions  

This

Disgruntled former employees don’t make the best interviews.

Greatest lover ever during the day, Trainyard Sleeper at night.

by IRodC on Jan 16, 2012 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Why thank you. :)

"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Proud member of Trainyard Sleepers, BECW: S2
We're gonna win, you know. Stats lie.

by duck on Jan 16, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

If the UFC raises minimum pay to 12k/12k, everyone would jump on them for raising the barrier of entry and call them a monopoly… and if they keep it to 6k/6k, they’re not paying fighters enough. Lose/lose…

by Shnak on Jan 16, 2012 10:36 AM EST reply actions  

If anything, I think the UFC is overreacting to a feature piece by ESPN that, while not particularly flattering, wasn’t exactly the a sledgehammer to the credibility of the UFC.

I understand it completely. Given that the ESPN/OTL story was about “Low pay for UFC fighters” then to find out that ESPN/FNF fighters make a fraction of what UFC fighters are making seems a bit hypocritical. Sure ESPN doesn’t set the pay for FNF fighters, but, why was the FNF pay not included in the OTL story? It’s about fighter compensation for putting their health at risk, right? The fact that it wasn’t included makes it seem more like a hit piece on the UFC. Which is why the UFC is responding the way it is.

I don't know what the world may need but a V8 engines a good start for me.

by jrobb20 on Jan 16, 2012 11:02 AM EST reply actions  

It doesn’t prove anything, it doesn’t actually make ESPN look bad and it only serves to further the “us vs. them” narrative.

But maybe that’s just what they actually set out to do.

Bingo.

A large part of the UFC brand is their status as an edgy counter-culture rebel. Zuffa is simply reinforcing the notion that “Big Media doesn’t get us”, and building up their street cred.

by Steve4192 on Jan 16, 2012 11:06 AM EST reply actions  

The UFC just did exactly what ESPN did to them.

They present a bit of truth, with a whole lof of missing information that would have rounded out the overall picture to make each other look bad. Anyone with a brain knows it’s not just as simple as what ESPN illustrated in their ridiculous expose that was in itself full of holes, just like the UFC’s retaliation isn’t completely true either, nor does it tell the whole picture. But the UFC knows exactly what it’s doing, and in this case, while I don’t believe either attack made the other party look that bad – really overblown – but the UFC knows its fanbase, and to the diehard Zuffa fanatics – the ones that mob Dana White at every turn – it did make ESPN look bad, and it looks like they accomplished their mission.

"You've got Floyd Mayweather making $25 million. He can't stop a double-leg..." Nick Diaz.

by pud333 on Jan 16, 2012 11:16 AM EST reply actions  

Dan made some stupid logical mistakes himself.

While you shouldn’t include a show like FNF with a fixed budget when talking about “paying fighters more” Dan was also saying that no network decides how much a fighter makes. Which is ultimately untrue when you have HBO and Showtime bidding over fight purses and thus determining how much guys are going to make.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jan 16, 2012 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

HBO and showtime are essentially promoters though.

ESPN is no where near that level. They are broadcasters thats it. The same as Fox is to the UFC. The Fox UFC comparison Rafael made was right on the money. White had no real answer for anything Rafael said regarding that besides " We were paying the fighters out of pocket for the first six years!" or " why doesnt espn put in more money!?" Its hard to have come backs to logical replys from a really sloppy statement made by Lorenzo Fertita. The UFC is a multi-billion dollar company and the fact is fighter pay hasnt grown at the pace of company growth. There should be a degree of shame to that, and they are defensive about it.

by Upstait on Jan 16, 2012 12:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I haven’t seen the new OTL piece yet, so I have no idea how it makes UFC look. But, for those who have seen it, how much worse is it, if at all, than this E:60 from 2009?

In the 2009 show, they brought up the fighter pay issue. They also had Pat Miletich and Tito Ortiz slamming Dana and UFC on camera. Last I checked, both guys are still working for Zuffa.

Maybe Zuffa really doesn’t care if ESPN makes them out to be sweatshop owners making their fortunes off poor fighters, because it gets them talked about and they know the fighter pay issue never stopped people from watching boxing. Dribbling out the Fertita response a bit at a time keeps the topic alive. Free pub, can’t beat it.

by ( . Y . ) on Jan 16, 2012 1:45 PM EST reply actions  

The whole monopoly discussion

was a contraindicative, as Ricco Rodriguez was saying that he is making decent money fighting other organizations so how is the UFC a monopoly?

by Coeman on Jan 16, 2012 5:18 PM EST reply actions  

So if I own a clothing retail store, and I knowingly purchase inventory to sell from sweatshop factories, am I in the clear? I’m not the one paying them sweatshop wages, I’m just selling the clothes.

by GogoPlatter on Jan 16, 2012 9:04 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Bravo

This is the best analysis of the video “rebuttal” I have seen. Nice Brent.

by Rob Maysey on Jan 17, 2012 5:35 AM EST reply actions  

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