VIDEO: ESPN's UFC Fighter Pay Story Interesting, Informative, Not Damning
by Josh Nason on Jan 15, 2012 4:00 PM EST
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Outside of UFC 142, one of the hot button topics last week was ESPN's Outside The Lines doing an investigative piece on UFC fighter pay. Aggressive reaction and a promise of a counterstrike from UFC President Dana White came quickly as ESPN is apparently back on his bad side.
The segment ran, a panel discussion followed and the consensus (among social media anyway) was that it was a good, interesting piece but not exactly damning of the UFC. In reality, the tone, numbers and the feel was in the written companion feature that debuted earlier this week. Yahoo's Dave Meltzer recapped the issues last week, as he as interviewed for the feature but wasn't used in the final cut.
John Barr was the journalist in the nine minute opening segment that focused heavily on Zuffa co-owner Lorenzo Fertitta, crediting him and brother Frank with the revival of the UFC. Fertitta was asked about an MMA monopoly, which he said is ridiculous. Enter Ken Shamrock who is not in the good graces of the UFC, who essentially said that it is. Promoter/manager Monte Cox explained that he has to take what the UFC gives his fighters and that only the fighters who "fight through the gauntlet and get to the top" get paid.
Fertitta was asked about why fighters are scared to come out and talk publicly to which he explained that anyone can say what they want and there's no retribution. He said they've paid out $250 million to fighters and made 39 millionaires. The piece then shifted focus to the entry level fighters and the graduating scale for their first three fights (ex. $6000 show/$6000 win for opening fights), explaining that the scale is better than what some boxers get but not close to the four major league sports.
The real crux of the story was the focus on how much of the organization's revenues goes toward the fighters. Fertitta didn't give an exact number, but said it was in the "neighborhood" of 50% like the four major sports. This was disputed in the panel discussion that followed the segment with some estimating that number to be around 10%. The discretionary bonuses were covered in full with a claim by an unnamed fighter that you have to "kiss ass" to get them.
At no point was health insurance brought up, nor was marketing/promotional/event expenses which would have made the story a bit more well rounded. For the full video and what happened during the OTL panel discussion, join us after the jump.
The panel discussion (not yet available online) featured host Bob Ley, former UFC Heavyweight Champion Ricco Rodriguez, ESPN reporter Josh Gross and Mixed Martial Arts Fighters Association' head Rob Maysey. Ley brought up some of the angry comments that White had on Twitter and that White declined to be on the show.
Ley asked Rodriguez about his past dealings with White to which Rodriguez said that his conflicts about pay with White are a major reason he's not in the UFC. He talked about having to fight in other countries and organizations to make money, but didn't come across bitter. Rather, he seemed resigned to the situation at hand.
Maysey looked nervous and didn't add much to the discussion, while Gross reiterated a lot of the points he and Barr made in the online story. However, he did bring up some positives like how White and Fertitta made a private donation to Dan Miller's efforts to get a kidney transplant for his son.
Will this cause sweeping change or some sort of uprising? It's doubtful as most hardcore fans will simply shrug because a lot of the info was already known and unless mainstream journalists start to point to the issue, the casual fans won't care either.
Watch the video and comment below about what you think about all of this. Is White overreacting? Do you care about fighter pay? Was this an attack job by ESPN or simply a good journalistic piece?
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Was this an attack job by ESPN
To answer this, I ask another question: Was Josh Gross involved?
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To suggest that everything Josh Gross writes is "an attack job"
is simply wrong. I had my issues with the OTL report and accompanying ESPN.com piece, but it was not “an attack job” and Josh Gross has written many positive things about many UFC fighters. Judge it by the quality of the work, not by whose byline is on it.
by MichaelDavidSmith on Jan 15, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Funny. I didn’t suggest that “everything” Gross writes is an attack job. At the same time, his association with the piece really does nothing for the credibility of the report. There’s nothing more ethically questionable than a journalist with an ulterior motive.
Being someone who also works as a journalist (though in a different medium) there are certain parts of this piece by ESPN that raise some flags, especially with Gross’ flimsy sources (some of which seem to hold as much credibility as Chael Sonnen’s “doctor”). In a world where information is readily available to anyone via a keyboard, using an “anonymous source” is almost interchangeable with “I made this shit up.” Not to mention, a piece on fighter pay with no active UFC fighters testifying to the state of things seems like a piece meant to slander, using the popularity of anti-corporate sentiment of the modern age to make someone like Dana White comparable to Andrew Ryan.
I often see similar issues with video game journalism from a few individuals that I’ve been vocal about in the past. They often use the buzzwords of “inside information” or “an anonymous source” and often times really have no solid evidence. We’re seeing the same thing here. As it stands, Gross’ presence within the piece does not help considering his history. Quite frankly, I think he’s a scumbag. Then again, it’s rare that I see journalists that aren’t these days. In the age of the blogger, ethics get thrown out for tabloid journalism built at getting hits by manipulating the emotions of the audience as opposed to bringing forth information that people want. Most modern “journalists” wouldn’t be fit to work for the National Enquirer.
As it stands, I’d be more than happy to judge it by the quality. It’s questionable at best.
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by MicahtheCynic on Jan 15, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Funny. I didn’t suggest that "everything" Gross writes is an attack job. At the same time, his association with the piece really does nothing for the credibility of the report. There’s nothing more ethically questionable than a journalist with an ulterior motive.
You kinda did. But as MDS said, Gross is good about giving both sides even though Zuffa won’t cooperate with him in the slightest. I’ve seen “ulterior motives,” and this wasn’t it.
In a world where information is readily available to anyone via a keyboard, using an "anonymous source" is almost interchangeable with "I made this shit up."
I’m a little uneasy with anonymous sources at times, but sometimes, there’s no way around them. I’d find it really hard to believe that Gross and the well-regarded OTL crew made no effort to get UFC fighters on the record and then just decided to make things up.
Not to mention, a piece on fighter pay with no active UFC fighters testifying to the state of things seems like a piece meant to slander,
Or it may seem like UFC fighters are afraid to talk on camera, justifiably or not.
I often see similar issues with video game journalism from a few individuals that I’ve been vocal about in the past. They often use the buzzwords of "inside information" or "an anonymous source" and often times really have no solid evidence. We’re seeing the same thing here.
It’s really not. They have a couple of people who talked about their experiences, including Ricco Rodriguez. Now, you can say Rodriguez has his own reasons for saying what he says, and you could say that about Ken Shamrock as well. I was a little antsy when the original preview made no mention of Shamrock’s recent court defeat against Zuffa; I was glad Bob Ley mentioned it today.
Also, the pay figures are public record. Did some fighters make $6,000? Yes. No anonymous sources needed.
As it stands, Gross’ presence within the piece does not help considering his history. Quite frankly, I think he’s a scumbag.
Fair enough. But you still have to judge the work for what it is.
Then again, it’s rare that I see journalists that aren’t these days. In the age of the blogger, ethics get thrown out for tabloid journalism built at getting hits by manipulating the emotions of the audience as opposed to bringing forth information that people want. Most modern "journalists" wouldn’t be fit to work for the National Enquirer.
Ouch. I do agree that the 24/7 deadline cycle and the crowded marketplace make it easier for journalists to stand out by shouting rather than doing thoughtful work. But OTL as a whole is usually in the “thoughtful” camp. (Not always — I still remember a piece on children participating in MMA in which Frank Shamrock was basically tossed to the wolves. “So, Frank, how do you feel about kids taking part in poorly supervised MMA contests?” “Umm … that’s bad.”)
As it stands, I’d be more than happy to judge it by the quality. It’s questionable at best.
Fair enough.
by Beau Dure on Jan 15, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
“It’s really not. They have a couple of people who talked about their experiences, including Ricco Rodriguez. Now, you can say Rodriguez has his own reasons for saying what he says, and you could say that about Ken Shamrock as well. I was a little antsy when the original preview made no mention of Shamrock’s recent court defeat against Zuffa; I was glad Bob Ley mentioned it today.”
Actually, it really is. They claimed to have spoken to “over 20 UFC fighters, former fighters, or prospective fighters.” That is not just a few fighters talking about their experience. It is showcasing stories of a few fighters with the inference that all fighters feel the same way.
Why didn’t they use Matt Serra’s interview? Dana has said Serra called him and said he was interviewed by the OTL crew but when he did n’t answer the question the way they wanted they packed up and left.
The video wasn't an attack job, it was for the most part speculative
I understand the reasons for anonymous sources, but it’s hard not to think they’re just a step up from imaginary friends in certain scenarios, particularly anything that might be deemed as a ‘hit piece’.
Without hard copy documentation that can prove UFC’s distribution of revenue there’s not much that can be done. The only thing that can be argued is if UFC’s denial to disclose is a matter of them trying to hide something rather than just smart business sense or personal preference.
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I need to see the full UFC version of the interview.
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by mma.ly on Jan 15, 2012 4:17 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
that isn’t going to really be too helpful. They didn’t make lorenzo look like an idiot. The only interesting thing from that would be if they cut and questions and/or answers that would paint the UFC in a better light.
It’s always nice to be safe and see a full unedited video. Just a couple weeks ago, CNN edited a video to sensationalize Ron Paul’s attitude in an interview. They even went so far as to attempt to pull the unedited version from Youtube, but to no avail.
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by Zachary Kater on Jan 15, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
I laughed because it’s a completely ridiculous statement. It doesn’t prove anything at all, but it made me care about Zuffa’s copy of the tape.
$275!
…above my pay grade
I don’t know what “pay-grade” had to do with it.
Anyway, I wouldn’t call the piece a hack job as some have. I’d be flattered to be honest. The UFC should welcome the scrutiny. It is one of the indicators that the organisation is somewhat heading “mainstream”.
by higgledy-piggledy on Jan 15, 2012 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
Not intentionally being critical,
but that is not a flattering image of Ken, he looks strung out. Yikes.
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by BrothaDarkness on Jan 15, 2012 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, it's Ken Shamrock.
I’m surprised he looks decent.
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by McKinley B. Noble on Jan 15, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
no different than pro wrestling
did you know pro wrestler can make more money wrestling on the independent circuit than starting out in the WWE
but they work their butt off to get more money
Really fascinating stuff. Credit to Monte Cox for having the bottle to give his views on camera. You have to think Zuffa are pretty lucky to be unaffected by the Ali act.
i know they dont have to disclose all revenue streams but you gotta think these agents have quick access to the latest PPV and gate revenue. it cant be that hard to get a good revenue estimate on any given event .
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by Hardy's in your face on Jan 15, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Why is Dana so intent on getting their version of the interview out?
I think Lorenza Fertita is represented pretty fairly and this didn’t seem to make him look like a bad guy at all.
Exactly, this piece is all fluff. No nasty insinuations made and Lorenzo came off really well. there is no reason for the UFC to get pissy about this. If ESPN really wanted to get tough they would talk about the potential anti competitive effects of the SF purchase to the consumer.
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by Hardy's in your face on Jan 15, 2012 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
it’s also a great commercial for the ufc. a ton of awesome highlights (and most if not all are non-knockout highlights) crammed in there.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jan 15, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
so entry level fighters should get 400,000 a year
Get out of here. I think that the pay structure is as good as you are going to get it. What happens when you pay out more than you make, you close up shop and cancel checks you have written to fighters. I am also curious as to what it cost to cover a professional fighter on insurance. Is there a huge discrepency between entry level fighters and top tier guys? Yes, but guess what you have that in any sport.
As for the guys complaining about not getting bonuses, I have a feeling it is the ones getting knocked out and subbed when they fight. This buisness pays you to win.
Ok b.e. I’m ready for the regulars to rip me apart.
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There is a much larger pay discrepancy in the UFC
Much, much, much larger. Let’s use MLB as the point of comparison here, which has the largest contracts for stars since there’s no salary cap. The general consensus is that GSP makes somewhere around four million per fight (as a conservative estimate). If an entry-level fighter is making 6k show/6k win, GSP is making around 330 times as much per fight. A league minimum contract in MLB is somewhere between 300-400k, while the largest is around 25 million/year. That’s about an eightyfold difference. The UFC’s pay scale, then, is dramatically tilted toward the guys at the top, far more so than any other major sport.
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by Patrick Wyman on Jan 15, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
IMO, the stars in all the major sports are overpaid. Not many people bring that up though.
The president of the U.S. makes what, 400K annually, and Alex Rodriguez makes over 50x that?
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by Zachary Kater on Jan 15, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
But baseball is the most extreme example, which is why is used it as a comparison. Nobody, however, is saying that GSP, Anderson or Overeem is overpaid, and comparatively they’re taking a much larger slice of the pie than the Alex Rodriguezes or Albert Pujols of the world.
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by Patrick Wyman on Jan 15, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
Shit gets messy when you try to compare it to any other sport. All the sports it’s typically compared to have unions and government intervention… Pro wrestling is probably the closest to it in a financial sense, unfortunate as that is for me to admit.
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by Zachary Kater on Jan 15, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
But should it be?
Fundamentally, that’s what this argument is about. If the UFC wants to be taken seriously as the umbrella organization for MMA, then they need to have more in common with the MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL than with the WWE or even boxing.
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by Patrick Wyman on Jan 15, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
That's impossible, as is though. Those sports have had way more time to develop.
MMA is just a baby when you think about all of the events over time that have helped shaped the modern landscape of the major sports.
Basically, until as many people watch the UFC as they do the NFL, the participants in the sport won’t be able to be paid equally to the NFL. The UFC is still in it’s growing stages, where NFL has pretty much reached most everywhere it wants to be.
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by Zachary Kater on Jan 15, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
but media also moves faster these days. up until fairly recently the nfl’s coverage consisted of a 1 or two games of the week on one TV network (which was often the same teams like the cowboys and steelers). during the week the only coverage it got was from local newspapers. it was only until cable tv and ESPN that the sport became a phenomenon. with the internet expanding fantasy football and gambling, it became a national obsession.
the ufc may never grow to be larger than it is today as a niche sport for cable television and the internet. the big thing it does have going for it, though, is the potential for international expansion that dana touts so fervently.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jan 15, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, and It’s also people beating the shit out of each other. It’s never going to be as popular as the NFL in the market that currently matters most financially. Not everyone enjoys violence.
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by Zachary Kater on Jan 15, 2012 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
yeah, the thing i most often hear about MMA from my non-ignorant friends is something to the effect of “it’s a great sport to watch twice a year but too brutal to watch every week.”
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jan 15, 2012 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
Not saying that the pay scales should be equivalent to other major sports, just that they should eventually be shooting for that model.
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by Patrick Wyman on Jan 15, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
It's not an apples to apples thing though
A baseball team needs the 25th man on the roster or they are at a significant disadvantage. The UFC simply would not put on a Felipe Arantes vs. Antonio Carvalho fight (or whoever you want to pick) on if it cost them anything significant. Those guys have basically zero current value to the UFC, they are only even signed for event filler/potential future main eventers.
The better comparison would be to minor league players or D-leaguers—-MiLBers get paid approximately 12k a year to play as minor league filler/potential future big leaguers. You’re not getting paid until you’re in the big leagues (yes, draft bonuses and all that, but just saying it’s not all that different: if you are easily replaceable, you aren’t valuable and that’s true everywhere).
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How are you going to compare a team sport to a individual combat sport?
by discoandherpes on Jan 15, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions
you kidding? sports stars are underpaid if anything
they do all the work, yet the owners get most of the money. owners don’t pay for the stadiums, don’t have to provide their own media, and largely don’t even have to do any marketing.
it’s the time, attention, and money that fans give to sports that’s overblown. take even a tenth of that energy and give it to, say, finding a cure for cancer or reforming public education and the country would be significantly better off.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jan 15, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
they do all the work, yet the owners get most of the money. owners don’t pay for the stadiums, don’t have to provide their own media, and largely don’t even have to do any marketing.
This doesn’t make sense as it’s written. Players don’t pay for stadiums either… They don’t do ALL the work, by any means.
I don’t know why anyone needs 20 million a year, whether they’re a running back, owner of the Yankees, Brad Pitt, CEO of Google… So I agree with the latter portion of your statement. Entertainment is valued way too highly in our society.
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by Zachary Kater on Jan 15, 2012 5:17 PM EST up reply actions
people pay to see the players. people also like to see those players organized and motivated, which is where the coaches come in. if given the opportunity, the players union in any sport could easily conjure up a system to effectively handle all the anciliary stuff (like negotiating TV rights) on their own.
i agree that it’s absurd on the surface for a baseball player to have a $300 million guaranteed contract, but it’s fair when you think of that athlete’s role in bringing revenue to the team. and yeah, the entertainment obsession in our society is ridiculous. the average person might profess to value causes like world hunger and deadly diseases, but that same person might give a small, perfunctory amount to a charity while freely donating thousands of dollars to tickets and apparel for their favorite sports team.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jan 15, 2012 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
People vastly underrate an individual's ability to create millions/billions worth of value to millions/billions of people
Not afraid to nitpick
indeed
the nfl essentially gets an entire day of the week to preach to the nation. imagine if, say, the quest to cure cancer or paralysis got that attention. heck, imagine if it even got 15 minutes.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jan 15, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
what people need to realize is that the people in the first fight that is lucky to be on facebook are closer to minor league players than the 25th guy on a baseball team.
No argument here
But the difference between a minor league contract and the league minimum salary isn’t that extreme.
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by Patrick Wyman on Jan 15, 2012 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
you need to go further down. The people opening a ufc card are not AAA in baseball, they are AA to A level, those people get paid peanuts.
We’ll have to agree to disagree about that. I would say AA or A is the rough equivalent of King of the Cage or another regional promotion.
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by Patrick Wyman on Jan 15, 2012 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
Yes it is
Minor leaguers get something like $12-13k a year + some expenses for 6 months.
Not afraid to nitpick
That depends
On the minor leaguer. If we’re talking about somebody drafted in the 35th round and sent to low-A ball, sure, but not high AAA prospects with a good shot of making it onto a major league roster in the near future.
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by Patrick Wyman on Jan 15, 2012 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
Comparing the UFC to the NFL, MLB, NBA etc is silly.
The UFC doesn’t have near the amount of revenue.
A more fair comparison would be boxing.
by higgledy-piggledy on Jan 15, 2012 7:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
also the UFC and MMA in general is only 20 years old. It cannot be compared to pro sports that have been built up over a century. Most likely Pro MMA Fighters will be making those absurdly high salaries as the sport grows over the next several decades.
by Fatty Fish Belly on Jan 16, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Psh, I’m not going to attempt to rip anyone apart except the people who pretend they actually know how much UFC fighters are paid.
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by Zachary Kater on Jan 15, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
NFL Practice Squad players make $5,700 per week.
Say what you will about the NFL making more money but lets not forget that each team is an independent franchise, just like a McDonalds or a Best Buy. I can guarantee that the Fertittas make a HELL of a lot more money than the Jacksonville Jaguars do in a year but a guy who only practices, never actually plays, gets paid a hell of a lot more than a low level UFC fighter who also has to pay for his own training, supplements, travel (for camps), etc.
Nothing too surprising in the piece
If you’ve paid attention over the last couple of years, then this wasn’t shocking in any way. The UFC could probably afford to pay its fighters more; there’s simply no way Zuffa pays anywhere close to 50 percent of their revenue, as other major sports do, and Lorenzo’s claims that they do are simply disingenuous. The UFC has been investing heavily in their brand, and while that sucks for guys like Jon Fitch – who represents the clear counterargument to the “keep winning and you’ll get paid” idea – I fully expect fighter pay to rise dramatically over the next five-ten years.
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So sick...
I am so sick of this fighter pay BS…it’s the same in any industry where you essentially work for yourself or own your own business. At least in fighting you can make a little bit of money. In most businesses or when you buy into a franchise you shell out a few hundred K or hope you break even in your first couple of years.
Don’t give me this UFC is making money on their sweat cause EVERY business makes you cut your teeth learning and not making money as part of the process of the establishment shelling out the dollars, vision, and infastructure before you got there and giving you the platform for you to perform on.
Lets see......
Broke ex ufc fighter. check
Agent & promoter. check
Lawyer who is trying to make a buck. check
Josh Gross. check
This is the type of journalism I would expect from an entertainment company.
by Drops on Jan 15, 2012 4:49 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Curious
I’m curious to find out what “proper” pay should be from those that believe fighter pay is unfair. Personally I like the pay model, as a fan I benefit from it. I’m sure if I was a fighter I would feel a little different.
Unless you were a really good fighter.
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by Zachary Kater on Jan 15, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'd say
The minimum should be 12k show/12k win.
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by Patrick Wyman on Jan 15, 2012 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
That's really not that much more on the grand scale of things.
A few guys at the bottom of a card always walk away with 6K/6K at least. Zuffa wouldn’t take a hit financially just to do it though, so one way or another they would balance that out, even if it meant less back-room bonuses just to appease the masses. They have no reason to willingly do it anyways, honestly… This is something that needs to be on the minds of fighters, not fans, IMO. They’re the only ones who could really change it.
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by Zachary Kater on Jan 15, 2012 5:04 PM EST up reply actions
We're on the same page
It’s just the guys at the absolute bottom of the pay scale whose situation worries me. I don’t think Zuffa needs to completely overhaul their model or anything like that, just that it’s ridiculous that guys fighting in the biggest organization in the world, even at the bottom of the card, are paid peanuts.
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by Patrick Wyman on Jan 15, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Not a solution to the current issue, just a couple more things I wanted to add...
But any fighter thinking about one day becoming a UFC star should always have a backup plan, and I think a lot of them don’t do it. Fighting for a living is a luxury. That doesn’t mean they should be treated like slaves, but if you’re becoming a cage fighter for the money, instead of just being able to do something you love for a living, you have your priorities all messed up. Just thought I’d bring that up since it often gets overlooked.
Also, if the UFC did pay people better as a whole, more talented people would most likely attempt the sport, so that’s one reason for them to do so. There are other more financially stable things an athlete can do nowadays. At this point, company expansion seems to be more important to Zuffa though.
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by Zachary Kater on Jan 15, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
A backup plan should be necessary for anyone going into a sport professionally
But I’m not getting why a talented fighter shouldn’t have a reasonable expectation of being able to make a good living on their skills. Nobody tells a 21 year old NFL prospect or a 17 year old MLB prospect that they should be prepared to have a side job to make ends meet.
Totally agree on the second point. Talented athletes go where the money is, which is part of the reason why heavyweight is such a thin division.
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by Patrick Wyman on Jan 15, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
Is a random undercard fighter
Really worth 24k?
by discoandherpes on Jan 15, 2012 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
I still feel disappointed, i think this could have been so much better.
If they do it a different weekend, and don’t run the preview (or maybe run a better preview) they can have someone from zuffa to make the panel discussion more worthwhile. Letting Ricco claim pay is the only reason he’s out of the UFC is a joke, Maysey bringing up Randy Couture is also a joke. That story needs to be dead and buried, he had a contract, he had to honor it. Just like the Packers didn’t let Favre walk to the Vikings and the Bengals held on to Carson Palmer until they could get something.
That said, it wasn’t as bad as I thought it was going to be after reading the preview, but it also didn’t have too much new information. Definitely not worth the headache it created over the weekend.
Fighter pay is fine sure it could be better but really what do you bring to the table if you are some unknown prospect?
Fighters make way better money once they get to that second or third contract. If you win you get paid if you don’t you don’t.
In the end we really don’t know squat because the UFC is a private company.
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I’d imagine the percentage of fighters that start out as an opener and make it to the top tier in the UFC is pretty small. This to me is the biggest reason you don’t see fighters getting more money on the undercard. The flameout rate of even guys considered elite prospects is far too high. How could you invest that much money into fighters that may never hold any other value to the company than being a body in the cage? The only system I find comparable to the UFC could be baseball.
Here are some numbers
Class AAA—First year: $2,150/month, after first year no less than $2,150/month
Class AA-First year: $1,500/month, after first year no less than $1,500/month
Class A (full season)—First year: $1,050/month, after first year no less than $1,050/month
Class A (short-season)—First year: $850/month, after first year no less than $850/month
Dominican & Venezuelan Summer Leagues—no lower than $300/month
Meal Money: $20 per day at all levels, while on the road.
Now granted. some baseball prospects are given large draft-day bonuses, but between some above-average contracts amongst UFC prospects, fight bonuses and sponsorships, I’d imagine that would level the playing field in terms of yearly income.
The similarities between the two go beyond just the numbers. The trajectory of baseball prospects are similar to that of MMA prospects. Often times solid information or scouting reports on prospects is scarce. This leads to many top prospects failing to meet expectations, while less heralded prospects explode on to the scene and find success. With all of these variables baseball teams use this to advantage by providing themselves depth within the organization via organizational players throughout the minors, utility men, bullpen arms, DL candidates, etc. In practice, this isn’t much different. For every Bull Durham there’s a George Roop or Ian Loveland.
My basic point here is that you can’t invest big money into fighters who will not bring in any profit other than that of filling a space. It’s a harsh reality, but it clearly isn’t the only sport that uses cheaply paid talent.
I'd maybe buy a AAA comparison, but
anything below that is pretty low. by the time a guy gets to the ufc he’s been fighting on the regional circuit for at least 3 years, and will have accrued a dominant record (not to mention the years he’s spent competing in whatever component martial art that forms his base). this is akin to a minor league baseball player rising up the ranks and getting a big league callup. remember that even the worst major league player put up big stats in the minors. unless you’re a cain velasquez-level prospect, the opening slot on a ufc card is going to be the reward for several years of hard work so, i mean, i don’t think it’s fair to label them minor leaguers. perhaps you can do that for a few TUF guys, but there was nobody on that card last night who was minor league. even carlo prater has some big wins on his record.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jan 15, 2012 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
the best comparison would probably be the classic “AAAA” journeyman in MLB— the pinch hitter, relief pitcher, defensive replacement type of guy who’s constantly bouncing back and forth from AAA to the big leagues. the ufc is the big leagues— plain and simple. a bottom of the card ufc guy is going to beat up pretty much any regional guy even if he can’t handle most ufc fighters.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jan 15, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t mean any disrespect, it was only meant to be used a reference to scale against. Even still, a great track record isn’t always indicative of instant success or stardom. A comparison I would make would be Jake Rosholt, Jason Reinhardt or even Mac Danzig to COUNTLESS 1st Round picks in baseball. There have been many players who were dominant through college, were given large bonuses and never made it past AAA. Rosholt was seen as a no-brainer prospect, and while he still has time, never worked out in his UFC debut. Mac Danzig had an extensive background in the regional circuit, but hasn’t been able to repeat that success in the UFC sitting at 4-5. Jason Reinhardt sucks and is 20-0 outside of the UFC. Those are three guys off the top of my head, and I’m sure there are many more examples like this.
My point is that it is incredibly difficult to project who will and won’t succeed in the sport as there are too many variables. If a young athlete gets larger in most sports, it will usually only increase his effectiveness. In baseball or MMA you’ll have to change weight classes or positions, and may not be as effective. Injury risk is probably just as high in terms of pitchers as it is for MMA fighters. Combining physical variables like these along with lack of information amongst the amateur and regional circuits, varying degrees of competition, and often a different set of rules (think wooden/metal bats and ring/cage), it’s a difficult science to truly project who will succeed.
I think it’s just that the big leagues are that tough. Even a great wrestler and athlete like Rosholt can get subbed in the UFC, just like a reliever with a 95 mph fastball can get taken deep in MLB. Either dominates in AAA.
From my armchair perspective, I don’t think scouting is as tough as it’s made out to be. The majority of mlb first rounders who don’t at least sniff the big leagues do so because of injury. Yeah, not everybody can recognize superstars out of a lineup of guys with big league skills, but it’s not hard to figure a d-1 national wrestling champ is gonna be a ufc-caliber fighter. Whether that guy develops into a championship contender is a different story.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jan 15, 2012 6:33 PM EST up reply actions
excellent post
There are so many flame outs, but the ones who stick can make do all right.
The world needs ditch diggers too.
"that guy just brings it to every post superbowl party there is, this guy is a stone-cold killer Jaws" - Jon Gruden on Ray Lewis
On cauliflower ear: "This guy’s tough. His ears are like potatoes. Looks like he got stuck in the birth canal, had to beat him out with a stick." - Don Frye
"He's still a little wobbly on his feet, ya know? Either that or he's got good rhythm." - Don Frye
by Matt Millen draft advisor on Jan 15, 2012 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
That is also only during the season by the way
Which for MiLBers is March-September basically
Not afraid to nitpick
I would say the reason Dana
is so upset by this piece and by many of the pieces Josh Gross has done is this. Dana has worked 80 plus hour weeks for the last 10 years to grow the sport of MMA and the UFC. Yes he has made money doing that but he has made a lot of other people money also including the journalists who cover the sport for a living. Instead of being critical of the UFC why not put out positive journalism in an attempt to help the sport. Let’s face it, every journalist, website owner, etc that pays their bills from the sport of MMA owe Dana White a thank you because those revenue streams wouldn’t be there if not for him. That’s not to say Dana deserves a pass and should never be questioned, there are things he has done that he clearly shouldn’t have. Josh Gross has been very critical of Dana White and the UFC, there is no argument about that. Ken Shamrock was made a millionaire by the UFC and he is the only validated source ESPN can come up with to show that the UFC doesn’t pay the fighters fairly. That doesn’t add up. ESPN was soured over the FOX deal, I believe that is non debatable. I don’t think the piece was accurate and the sources it came from all have a history of negativity with the UFC.
On Ricco
He henna tattoo’d a GoldenPalace logo onto his back for his UFC 39 fight with Randy Couture.
The casino and Mohegan Sun commission nearly stopped UFC 39 from ever happening as a result which at the time would of bankrupted the UFC.
Don't follow in my footsteps I walk into walls
Oh, he's totally resigned.
Ley asked Rodriguez about his past dealings with White to which Rodriguez said that his conflicts about pay with White are a major reason he’s not in the UFC. He talked about having to fight in other countries and organizations to make money, but didn’t come across bitter. Rather, he seemed resigned to the situation at hand.
Fucking up that 12-fight winning streak against a string of cans is probably another major reason why he’s not in the UFC.
Freelance Writer at PC World
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One Time, I Interviewed Dana White at UFC 86 & It Was Totally Cool
by McKinley B. Noble on Jan 15, 2012 8:58 PM EST reply actions
What Lorenzo says isn’t true. He says its close to 50/50 but just doing research from UFC 140 and the numbers don’t jive with what Lorenzo said.
UFC 140 Live gate: $3.1M
PPV buys: 480K
Lets average the PPV buys at $50 ($45 and $55 for HD) a shot so thats roughly $24M
Fighter Salaries including fight bonus were about 1.9M
I haven’t factor in a percentage of PPV money the top fighters got but I also didn’t factor
in sponsor and advert dollars the UFC got. Add those up and thats not close to 50% share with the fighters.
UFC- Over 27M
Fighters- About 2.1M
Lorenzo says that’s close to a 50/50 split?
Is the UFC a better pay scale than boxing? Yes.
Is it close to MLB, NBA and NFL…Not by a long shot
I know you will say I’m comparing Apples to Oranges but Lorenzo and Dana are the ones that want to compare themselves to other Pro Sports Leagues, so be careful what you wish for.
Also, Lorezno bringing up the ESPN Fight salaries is a bit unfair since ESPN is the broadcaster not the fight promoter. That’s like complaining to Spike why the UFC fighters don’t get paid enough.
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