Josh Gross Begins Even-Numbered Years with UFC Hit Pieces

by Derek Suboticki on Jan 12, 2012 8:48 PM EST

Certain things are like clockwork in the mixed martial arts blogosphere. MMA Junkie will break news and Bloody Elbow will run it through the SEO ringer; positive steroids tests will be met with equal parts outrage and mocking of the outrage; Ryan will promise us all something amazing and fail to deliver (I did get my Team Modafferi and Human Cockfighting t-shirts, though); and Josh Gross will get antsy in the middle of winter and attempt to relive Sherdog's battle with the UFC while he was at their helm.

Dear readers, you know I am a powerfully lazy writer, frequently led astray by such petty "real life" concerns as supervised probation, college courses and a job. I believe the last time I put my fingers against a keyboard (when not bullshitting on Twitter or documenting why someone is late on their mortgage) was immediately following the UFC's debut on Fox - an event that was widely clamored for among the MMA media for years before being largely pooh-poohed when it actually happened. I've had similar (read: identical) droughts of productivity (or are they spurts of uselessness?) before, but I'm learning that they're ok during the end of years ending in a 1, 3, 5, 7 or 9.

Immediately following the sparsely-bought UFC 108 PPV headlined by Rashad Evans and Thiago Silva - an utterly cursed card that conjured images of Papa Shango with a UFC-emblazoned skull across the Interwebs - Gross wrote this piece about how this singular event signaled the death knell for Zuffa's no-co-promotion policy (a.k.a their entire business model). To be fair, at the time, Fedor still loomed as an undefeated* #1 fighter outside of Zuffa's grasp (not so much anymore) and the waves from his signing with Strikeforce were still being measured. However, the reactionary aspect of the piece - one poorly-bought PPV = co-promotion forever - compelled me to come to this very site and disagree. That propelled me to Watch Kalib Run's podcast, the front pages of a few SBN sites and a ballot with USA Today. If the trajectory from this piece is similar, I'll be the Republican nominee in 2012 (I respectfully decline).

Today's timing is more weird than reactionary for the piece. The actual material, however, is just short of embarrassing. I feel genuinely sorry for Outside the Lines (one of the few quality offerings from ESPN) and John Barr having their names attached to it. Here's the link. Not only are the actual named sources for disgruntled fighters/managers few and far between, they're essentially limited to Rob Maysey, who is a completely unimpeachable and objective source of such informatio... oh wait, he runs the "Mixed Martial Arts Fighters Association," a powerfully weird site that's largely under construction and lists its most recent activity - by Maysey or anyone else - at over eleven months ago, despite claiming over 1,800 (largely avatar-less) members. Hmm.

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by Derek Suboticki on Jan 12, 2012 8:51 PM EST reply actions

my workplace blocks fightlinker

probably just because you write there too

by Rob Young on Jan 12, 2012 9:15 PM EST up reply actions

If my workplace didn’t block Fightlinker, I’d consider working for a more professional company.

by Derek Suboticki on Jan 12, 2012 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs

My workplace used to block MMA Fighting too but in the last couple weeks it all of a sudden became unblocked

And of course SB Nation has always been available or my post count would be dramatically lower than it is now.

by Rob Young on Jan 13, 2012 1:18 AM EST up reply actions

The only MMA website my work blocks is fightlinker… what did you guys do to get banned?

Sheeeeeeeee-it

by Clay Davis on Jan 16, 2012 9:34 AM EST up reply actions

I can’t even put into words how terrible the ESPN piece is. My god.

by Michael Rome on Jan 12, 2012 9:05 PM EST reply actions 7 recs

Rome, you've made my day.

If you agree with me on substance, then I don’t care if my style sucks.

by Derek Suboticki on Jan 12, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions

Eh, I'll hold back judgement until I see the whole thing.

But based on everything I know about the UFC, their production costs are ridiculously high compared to the top 5 sports promotions, so there’s that.

Plus, one would think that the UFC would be trying to bank a lot of money in savings (expansion).

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by McKinley B. Noble on Jan 14, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions

From resident researcher Letibleu at Fightlinker

Well, I took a look at this website. There seems to be 6ish active members. The last article written by one of their writers dates back 11 months ago.

The only other activity is from user generated forums in which 6ish different users seem to be somewhat active. Its much worse than here!!!

2448 users but only 60-80 seem to be generated by real people. The rest are all random letters together (subo is right about bot generated members)

Total Users: 2448 Latest Member: Loovortep
Total Messages: 1682 Total Subjects: 81 Total Sections: 1 Total Categories: 4
Today Open: 0 Yesterday Open: 1 Today Total Answer: 45 Yesterday Total Answer: 63

Now for this Rob guy that is made out by Gross to be MMA’s resident fighter pay expert:
Rob Maysey
Karma
Member since
Tuesday, 13 July 2010 03:29
Last online
46 days ago
Profile views
517 views

He seems to have a worse attendance record than Ryan!!!!!
Half of the real looking members seem to be aunts, uncles, general family that were coaxed into making a profile to encourage Rob.
These are not MMA fans (profile pictures of many of these members):

Great job Josh Gross on checking the creds of a source. Ronald McDonald told me things about you…

by Derek Suboticki on Jan 12, 2012 9:59 PM EST reply actions 8 recs

I'm unclear what this evidence points to.

Could you help me out by explaining it?

by Sabate on Jan 13, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions

Its a rabbit hole site, with no factual content, or reader base.

Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
No holds barred, no time for move fakin,
Gots to get the loot so I can bring home the bacon - Charlie Brown

by tigerlee on Jan 13, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions

as a matter of fact, the little bit of exposure that Subo gave the site has apparently crashed the server…oh no there’s a dozen people trying to view our site!

Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
No holds barred, no time for move fakin,
Gots to get the loot so I can bring home the bacon - Charlie Brown

by tigerlee on Jan 13, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs

I don’t understand how the ESPN article ever made to being published. The articles main point is “Employee’s think they are underpaid”. Really! Wow they really blew the lid off of that one. Employee’s disgruntled that the CEO makes exponentially more than they do. Damn! I’ve never heard of that before. You could take that same article and search and replace on the vocation and it would be true. Nurses think they are underpaid. Teachers think they are underpaid. Marketers think they are underpaid. etc, etc, etc…. We all think we’re underpaid. I’m going to do a poll at my office tomorrow and submit the results to the New York Times.

I don't know what the world may need but a V8 engines a good start for me.

by jrobb20 on Jan 12, 2012 10:08 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

Yeah, I'm siding with Dana on this one.

by Rob Young on Jan 12, 2012 10:37 PM EST reply actions

I don’t think that Josh Gross SI article was about what you say it’s about. As far as I can tell, it made no mention of any PPV doing disappointing numbers or being a portent of the demise of Zuffa’s no-co-promotion policy.

If anything, Gross seemed to take a balanced view, based on the MMA landscape as it stood at the time, when Strikeforce was still a promotion independent of UFC and Dream had some legitimacy.

Gross said:

Certainly there are flaws to co-promotion. Reputations, big money and egos often get in the way. But it allows for the possibility of important fights fans want to see. If the demand is high enough, things will get done unless the people doing business are suicidal.

I’m sure if you take the time to re-read this most recent article and keep your emotional response out of the equation, you’ll see that much of what he wrote is sensible. Calling it a biennial hit piece is a bit…er…reactionary, especially since the only other article you mention is anything but a hit piece. I assume you have examples of Josh’s other hit pieces from odd-numbered years, but I have to admit I don’t click on links in fan posts to find out more.

by ( . Y . ) on Jan 13, 2012 1:15 AM EST reply actions

Where has it led us? An increasing pattern of championship fights with contenders perceived to be weak. That may be a result of dominant champions planting themselves at the top, but it could also be the start of a disappointing trend.

Have you heard the complaints about Frankie Edgar challenging Penn ahead of Gray Maynard, who defeated Edgar? (Many fans say it doesn’t matters much, as neither guy has a chance against Penn).

With major organizations such as Strikeforce and Dream proponents of making fights across promotional lines, 2010 will be a true test as to which business model is better for the sport.

I’m firmly in the camp that co-promotion makes sense. MMA is an individual sport. Is it realistic to think any one entity will control every top fighter? Is it fair to tell a mixed martial artist he or she must be attached to a specific promoter in order to be considered the best?

He advocated Zuffa setting its entire business model ablaze

by Derek Suboticki on Jan 13, 2012 1:36 AM EST up reply actions

Sorry, I’m not seeing where he’s saying that. He said 2010 would be a true test of which business model would be better.

While you’re at it, please quote the part where he uses UFC 108 as an example of how a poor-selling event “signaled the death knell for Zuffa’s no-co-promotion policy.”

by ( . Y . ) on Jan 13, 2012 1:51 AM EST up reply actions

It was immediately after that card. He didn’t need to mention it by name.

Here’s his mailbag right after where he further defends the idea and proposes BJ Penn fight the Shooto champ.

by Derek Suboticki on Jan 13, 2012 1:59 AM EST up reply actions

Didn’t need to mention it by name? And yet you implied that that was the very basis of his biennial hit piece from 2010.

Gross wrote this piece about how this singular event signaled the death knell for Zuffa’s no-co-promotion policy

Now you suggest that readers need to go into the Josh Gross mailbag to find some obscure evidence of how he truly meant to torpedo UFC that year.

Sorry, it just appears that you came up with a title for a fan post, found little support for it, and decided to go with it anyway.

by ( . Y . ) on Jan 13, 2012 2:14 AM EST up reply actions

You had to be there. Not sure if you were, but January 2010 was “sky is falling time” in the wake of 108 falling below 300k in PPV buys.

Gross has had a long and sordid history with Zuffa ever since Sherdog leaked the TUF results while he was there. This is part of a pattern.

by Derek Suboticki on Jan 13, 2012 2:20 AM EST up reply actions

Which is why Sherdog is garbage.

It’s hard to take any journalist seriously when they have it out for a specific promoter. Not to mention, any site that hires someone like Tomas Rios can eat a dick pavlova.

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by MicahtheCynic on Jan 13, 2012 4:18 AM EST up reply actions

Chris Nelson is at Sherdog.

Sherdog is not garbage.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jan 13, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions

Brian Hemminger is at Mania.

I don’t see how that would ever change my opinion of Mania.

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by Paulo Filho's Psychiatrist on Jan 13, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs

to be fair to all involved

The articles at both Sherdog and Mania are very good. The comments section… leaves something to be desired sometimes.

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by Cory Braiterman on Jan 14, 2012 12:41 AM EST up reply actions

"Many fans say it doesn't matter much, as neither guy has a chance against Penn"

In retrospect, that is pretty awesome.

by discoandherpes on Jan 13, 2012 3:21 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Oh the heady days of 2010!

by GreyedOut on Jan 13, 2012 6:22 AM EST up reply actions

It's not a good article

it’s poorly sourced, and it stretches its central premise too far on too little data, but it does deal with important issues that should be discussed, and that are difficult to discuss properly because of the lack of accurate information from the UFC.

It doesn’t take a CPA to figure out that Lorenzo’s statement that the percentage of UFC revenue that goes to fighter salaries is on par with other major sports is complete bunk. I don’t know what the percentage split is, but I’m positive its not 50-50, which is about standard in other major sports.

It is also true that mid-card fighters, even popular ones, are paid really poorly when compared with other athletes. 80-90k a year, with no real benefits, and a ton of financial obligations (paying trainers, agents, etc.) is not good money, especially when you consider what these guys put on the line. You might be able to live on that, but you can’t exactly sock away retirement when your career inevitably comes to a close.

So your criticisms of Gross are valid, but so are the underlying points of his article.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

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by Dave Strummer on Jan 13, 2012 10:30 AM EST reply actions

that’s why the article is such a bad thing. If you have a good point but do a terrible job proving it, you can do more harm than good.

The story on fighter pay is sitting there waiting to be written, but espn and OTL coming out with this is disappointing.

by Phildo on Jan 13, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions

"Dealing w/ important issues that should be discussed"

does not make an article good.

Gross underestimates by half (!) the median annual income in the ufc. One need only look at win/show purses and the disclosed __ of the night bonuses to see that. (Source). So Gross is probably underestimating the annual income even more than that.

“80-90k a year, with no real benefits, and a ton of financial obligations (paying trainers, agents, etc.)” — where do you get this? The fact is, if you join a reputable camp and have a good manager, that is 10% (tops!) of your purse. The UFC puts you up at the events, and pays for transportation there. The UFC also covers training injuries. Where are the huge expenses here?
The only people who have huge “training” expenses, are the very very elite guys, who bring in a lot of different folks or pay for the whole camp out of pocket. (Rampage, Brock, GSP)

Tell me where I’m wrong here. Maybe they “should” make more than 80-90k, but that is still a lot of money. If they are blowing through that, maybe the real problem is that they aren’t good w/ their money?

I smoke on the mic like Smokin' Joe Frazier

by jhf884 on Jan 13, 2012 12:41 PM EST up reply actions

80-90k isn't a lot of money, especially in the context of an athlete with a 5-10 year career

compared to major, unionized sports, that’s a fraction of a standard league minimum salary. The NFL league minimum is the lowest, and it’s more than $300k/year.

If you love the sport, and you want to see it continue to grow and attract the best athletes, I think its reasonable to ask when the UFC is going to bring its pay standards more online with the major, mainstream consumer sports that it says it wants to compete with.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
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by Dave Strummer on Jan 13, 2012 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Remember, the UFC doesn’t reveal “locker room” bonuses- only the show, win, and bout bonuses. They potentially make much more than the fight purse. Add in sponsors, appearance fees, etc. the yearly payout could be twice the ‘revealed’ pay. I’m not saying lower tier fighters are making grand amounts (or are even paid enough), but surely they’re on par with boxers or other combat sports athletes of the same level.

Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
No holds barred, no time for move fakin,
Gots to get the loot so I can bring home the bacon - Charlie Brown

by tigerlee on Jan 13, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions

They are never gonna make the minimum level that NFL guys make

even if thy had a union, or got paid 50% of the revenue.

I’d love to see the sport grow, but a sh*tilly source article won’t help. The arguments fail.

As for the retirement thing, what, the guys can’t work after their athletic career? They can’t make money as a trainer, or even switch careers entirely?

Let’s let them get paid more, but it is a bit entitled to think that 5-10 years of cage-fighting merits (in any sense) the rest of ones life on easy street.

I smoke on the mic like Smokin' Joe Frazier

by jhf884 on Jan 13, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions

well keep in mind

that the guy making $300k in the NFL is a 22-year-old practice-squad scrub who may never see the field (or possibly fill in on special teams).

And it’s not about what fighters are entitled to, it’s about what you have to pay them in order to be drawing from the deepest possible talent pool, and I think that number probably has to come up a bit.

I agree the article is crappy, but I don’t agree with Subo’s eternally sunny UFC boosterism. The UFC may not be a monopoly, but it does behave like one in a lot of ways, and that may not always be good for fans or the sport.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs

by Dave Strummer on Jan 13, 2012 1:44 PM EST up reply actions

For the record...

Practice squad players in the NFL typically make $5,700 a week, or $96,900 if they’re on the practice squad for all 17 weeks of the season. The league minimum of $300K you cite is for players on the active roster, not the practice squad.

I think you and I are largely on the same page on this, but we should try to get all the numbers right. A guy who fights in a UFC prelim once, loses, and gets cut is akin to a guy who spends a couple weeks on an NFL practice squad and gets cut. And he gets paid about the same.

by MichaelDavidSmith on Jan 13, 2012 1:51 PM EST up reply actions

Good catch, and my mistake

I still think your average 300k player is usually a rookie or a walk-on who doesn’t see a ton of play time, but point definitely taken.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs

by Dave Strummer on Jan 13, 2012 1:58 PM EST up reply actions

top athletes

the top athletes are only coming to the UFC if they are in the lighter weight classes and that is only because they have no other options. anybody 185 and above is NEVER coming to the UFC. the best athletes in the USA play basketball and football. that will never change. let’s say ray lewis (a freak athlete and a beast of a man) makes roughly $10 million/year playing football. he could make close to $20 million/fight if he were a heavyweight boxer and only have to fight once or twice/year. why would he fight in the UFC for a few hundred thousand $‘s? so what does he do? he plays football because that’s what the best athletes do and that is never going to change.

by tha dude on Jan 14, 2012 9:56 AM EST up reply actions

Never say never.

You’re assuming that football will always be the most popular sport in America, and that America will always be the most important market for MMA. Who knows what will happen in a really long term perspective? Think thirty, fifty, a hundred years. MMA is still young, and there are huge markets outside the US that are untapped, and that’s before you start factoring in possible effects of more mainstream appeal inside the US.

by Simen on Jan 14, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions

Sure,

I’m not a UFC booster. I doubt we are all that far off on this. I just think the article doesn’t help make the case for fighters, it hurts it.

I smoke on the mic like Smokin' Joe Frazier

by jhf884 on Jan 13, 2012 2:00 PM EST up reply actions

Totally agree with you

Subo’s got ulterior motives though.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

BECW Season 1 - The NOT LAST PLACE Team Spinning Fish
BECW Season 2 - WAR Cecil Peoples Champs

by Dave Strummer on Jan 13, 2012 3:38 PM EST up reply actions

This is ridiculous.

I wrote a simple deconstruction of what I felt was/is a shitty article. At NO point did I offer an opinion on the UFC’s pay structure, my feelings on fighter pay or my ideal revenue split.

by Derek Suboticki on Jan 13, 2012 9:25 PM EST up reply actions

If you love the sport, and you want to see it continue to grow and attract the best athletes, I think its reasonable to ask when the UFC is going to bring its pay standards more online with the major, mainstream consumer sports that it says it wants to compete with.

Probably right around the time you’re willing to pay double or triple the price for a PPV. Why don’t you start mailing checks to the poor fighters? It’s always easy to be generous with someone else’s money.

I don't know what the world may need but a V8 engines a good start for me.

by jrobb20 on Jan 13, 2012 4:31 PM EST up reply actions

The $17,000-$23,000 figure for UFC fighter median annual income

Is so wrong that it calls into question the entire report. Even the mma-manifesto estimate of about twice that is by its own admission not including all the fighters’ income. This is an important subject and I hope the full Outside the Lines feature that airs Sunday does a better job of addressing it than what we’ve seen so far.

by MichaelDavidSmith on Jan 13, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions

Visual aid

I am proud of my painfully crappy photoshop skills

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by IRodC on Jan 13, 2012 12:32 PM EST reply actions 4 recs

You're still rec'd for it though.

by doomrider7 on Jan 13, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions

I don't see a single quote from a manager.

You’d think that would be someone you’d interview in a piece about fighter pay scales.

Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
No holds barred, no time for move fakin,
Gots to get the loot so I can bring home the bacon - Charlie Brown

by tigerlee on Jan 13, 2012 1:18 PM EST reply actions

Hey Subo, the link to that weird website is messed up.

You have mmmfa.tv instead of mmafa.tv

An annoying Fitch fan.
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by Zachary Kater on Jan 13, 2012 3:21 PM EST reply actions

well fa.tv is delicious mmm

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by IRodC on Jan 13, 2012 3:56 PM EST up reply actions

Just came back from Sherdog.

And unsurprisingly most of them unquestionably believe the ESPN article purely because it’s anti-Dana/UFC in one way or another.

by doomrider7 on Jan 14, 2012 2:14 AM EST reply actions

To this day, I've never looked at a single comment on Sherdog.

Brain’s better for it.

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One Time, I Interviewed Dana White at UFC 86 & It Was Totally Cool

by McKinley B. Noble on Jan 14, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions

According to Sherdog, Fedor is undefeated

Illegal elbow, Werdum got lucky (never mind he has some sick bjj), Big Foot was an unfair matchup (didn’t complain when he was fighting giant freakshow fighters) and Fedor wasn’t out against Dan Henderson (despite losing consciousness).

by discoandherpes on Jan 16, 2012 7:40 AM EST up reply actions

The UFC should in no way be compared to other sports leagues like the NFL, MLB and NHL at this point in time. They are not coming close to making the same amount of money.

by AHutch on Jan 14, 2012 10:38 AM EST reply actions