King Mo Lawal's Victory Over Roger Gracie Should Be Overturned
by Rob Young on Sep 13, 2011 4:10 PM EDT
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PrintOn September 10th, 2011, "King" Muhammed Lawal knocked out Roger Gracie and was awarded the official knockout win by the commission-appointed referee. Unfortunately, as you will see in animated GIFs after the jump, said KO was most likely the direct result of an illegal unintentional clashing of heads that the referee failed to notice and take the proper actions to correct.
Here are the GIFs:
Some would say that since the referee failed to notice the illegal move it's impossible to go back in time and undo the official's mistake and know what the outcome could have been. For all we know, after a brief stop in the action Roger may have chosen to continue and this could have drastically altered the fight's course, or maybe he'd decide that he couldn't continue and it would have been a disqualification. Hell, Gracie could have chosen to continue and the result may have been the same as what we have. So one side of the argument would be that we should just go with the result we have even if it's not perfect because it isn't the fighter's fault that the referee didn't intervene.
However, precedent has been set for this kind of situation, quite recently in fact.
At UFC on Versus 4 on June 26, 2011, Charles Oliveira fought Nik Lentz, was lighting him up, threw an illegal knee when Lentz was on his way up off the ground and then stopped getting up. The referee inexplicably did not stop the action, the fight continued and Oliveira won by TKO not too long after. He was awarded a controversial win in the cage that night. Days later, the Pennsylvania State Athletic Commission decided to overturn the win and make it a No Contest retroactively because the referee failed to stop the action and penalize Oliveira for his illegal strike.
I personally disagreed with the retroactive overturning for the same reasons I outlined above, but it happened. If we're going to take away wins after the fact for illegal moves that weren't noticed by referees, we should do it across the board. Therefore, King Mo Lawal's victory over Roger Gracie should retroactively be ruled a No Contest.
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Oliveira threw a knee with the intent to KO Lentz when he was still on his knees.
That’s a bit different from an incidental clash of heads. Mo wasn’t trying to headbutt Roger.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 13, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You can't say "regardless of the intent".
Intent is the entire determining factor.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 13, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
How do you determine intent?
Watch the Lentz/Oliveira fight. Lentz starts to get up and Oliveira is trying to time the knee so that it lands when he gets up. Lentz stops getting up so that it becomes illegal. It’s the very kind of thing Herb Dean has warned fighters about during other fights (During Kongo vs. Browne if my memory is correct), “gaming the system” if you will.
When you are standing
It’s not your job to go out of your way to make sure your opponent doesn’t move in a way that clashes your head.
When an opponent is on the ground, and you want to throw a knee, you have to make sure you don’t throw an illegal knee…that’s on you.
You want to forgive Oliveira’s intent because Lentz stopped getting up to make the knee illegal? No, Oliveira wanted to throw a knee, it’s his problem…he didn’t think twice about Lentz’s positioning…plenty of guys have caught themselves in the same scenario.
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by Chris Groves on Sep 13, 2011 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
and the fight you are thinking of is Kongo vs Buentello
Which was a different scenario, Buentello would be up against the cage, on two feet…then when Kongo would go to throw a knee, he would put his hand down…and lift it back up if Kongo caught himself.
Kongo wound up one knee while it was legal, and on it’s way to Buentello, Paul put his hand down to try and make it an illegal blow. He was playing the game.
Lentz wasn’t on to feet and then dropped to one knee when Charles went to knee him…entirely different scenario.
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by Chris Groves on Sep 13, 2011 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Intent is the determining factor between a No Contest or a Disqualification.
An unintentional foul that contribute to the finishing of a fight is supposed to make the fight a No Contest. An intentional foul that contributes to the finishing of a fight is supposed to result in a disqualification.
two totally different scenarios
Charles Oliveira broke the rules entirely on his own, a knee to the head of a downed opponent is possibly one of the biggest(because of how much damage it can do) fouls in the sport.
The impetus is entirely on the fighter throwing the knee to watch out.
Fighters inadvertantly butt heads a LOT in fights…when you are swinging, moving in and out, it happens.
Hughes was dropped from a headbutt in the Serra fight, they didn’t go back and take a point away.
It’s the fault of both of them for moving the wrong way at the wrong time…there is less intent in this headbutt then there is in most accidental groin shots
if the headbutt had knocked him out or even dropped him, then I could understand. But we don’t even know just how bad it hurt, we see Roger react a bit, but for all we know, that’s just his bad movement and then he gets cracked.
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by Chris Groves on Sep 13, 2011 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
shots to the back of the head and headbutts happen
they shouldnt be penalized unless they are blatently illegal and deliberate, fuck overturning fights after the fact
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
by milk72 on Sep 13, 2011 4:19 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
yea but i disagreed with the overturning of the oliviera fight
if you dont call the foul when and where it happens you cant call it after the fact
we’re not gonna overturn a football game cause someone was holding on the game winning touchdown run
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
Hey I'm with you.
I got into a heated argument on this very site on your side. It seemed like the majority of the posters on here were for the overturning of the Oliveira victory however.
They didn't overturn Krystof Bonnar I
They won’t overturn this
Dude, you can only overturn *after* the fact. That's why it's called *overturning*.
Just sayin’…
The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.
by Unabomberman on Sep 13, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What about blatantly illegal and deliberate knees to the head on the ground?
Guess those shouldn’t be penalized.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 13, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
they should at the time and place of their occurance
not after the fight a few days later
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
by milk72 on Sep 13, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
An illegal knee to the head is not the same thing as a headbutt
A heabutt like the one in this scenario is unintentional and as much the fault of BOTH guys as it is of either of them. Accidental headbutts happen faily frequently…and I think it is damn near impossible to assign blame.
So because Mo AND Roger both moved a way that caused their heads to hit, Mo’s blow that droppped Roger and the subsequent finishing blows should be overturned? He is not at fault at all.
If he waded in and actually headbutted Roger in the traditional sense, then you have a different story.
When an opponent is down, it is the job of the standing fighter to not knee him in the head, because that is a foul, the guy on the ground can’t do anything to stop the other guy from throwing an illegal knee…Charles did it on purpose. Whether he thought Lentz would be on his fight by the time it landed or not doesn’t matter, if you are willing to gamble with things like that…then you pay when it doesn’t work out.
PACIFIC RIM
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July 12th, 2013
by Chris Groves on Sep 13, 2011 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
No Contests were invented for involuntary fouls leading to the end of a fight. I don’t disagree that this fight result shouldn’t be overturned, but I don’t think “he didn’t mean to do it” is a good argument against overturning the result.
In the case of a headbutt that for all we know people are overplaying
yes it is.
If Roger fell over from the headbutt, then yes, that’s a big deal.
The thing about it, they both hit heads…they BOTH felt the impact and they both had just as much of a chance of getting wobbled or anything…it’s not Mo’s fault that Roger felt the sting a bit more.
The thing about the illegal accidental headbutt is that the result is a mutual effect to both guys. groin strikes and accidental knees are not.
PACIFIC RIM
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July 12th, 2013
by Chris Groves on Sep 13, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Well hell
They BOTH butted heads…maybe one guy got hurt worse…but that’s not the other guys fault. It’s an accidental co-foul, they both butt heads with the other guy for coincidental movement. It’s hard to really point fingers and say ’It’s that guys fault, so lets take his win away’
And if you are saying it’s nobodies fault…then there is even less of a case to reverse the win.
One guy kneeing the other because he isn’t paying attention to his own rule breaking…or one guy repetitively dick-kicking the other because he isn’t throwing his own leg kicks right…that’s one thing.
Both guys moving the wrong way at the wrong time and hitting heads is something else.
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by Chris Groves on Sep 13, 2011 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I think No Contests are there specifically when a foul is no ones fault.
by Sqwibbs on Sep 14, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This stupid soccer "If a foul happens and the ref doesn't catch it oh well!" attitude is bullshit.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 13, 2011 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions
well every sport in the entire world kinda has that attitude
i think its bullshit to change the outcomes of fights or any sports game days after the fact
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
Wow, i didn’t notice it either until I saw a gif earlier today. These are much larger and clearer. That was some impact. I don’t know if it should be overturned because the contact was incidental, but I definitely take some of King Mo’s credit back for getting the KO.
"He's got a great package... and an unusual one!" Joe Rogan (of Lyoto Machida)
YOU SEE THIS MATT ROTH!!?!?!?!
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Sep 13, 2011 4:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
NOPE
DIDN’T HAPPEN
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 13, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see anything illegal
Follow me on twitter @MattRoth512
by Matthew Roth on Sep 13, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
fixed
I don’t see anythingillegal
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Sep 13, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
If you had any credibility you would have lost it there.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 13, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Incidental
Much as I dislike Moe and love Roger, that was incidental and shouldn’t be penalized. I feel the same way about a single shot to the back of the head while a guy is in a deathroll, or a ref slapping a guy’s arm when he has yet to grip the fence (yes, you can press your hand up against it legally).
Remember all those folks that said WEC lightweights simply wouldn't be able to hang in the UFC? Yeah.......
word
I am with you, Blackout. It annoys me when the referee pre-emptively slaps a fighter’s open hand away from the fence. According to the rules, a fighter is allowed to hand-check and press against the fence with an open palm for balance or to shift position. As such, they should be allowed to do so without harassment from the referee. Interestingly, it would seem that fighters are allowed to grip the fence with their toes in order to “wall walk” from the bottom position (Joe Daddy Stevenson comes to mind, he executed this perfectly in a match to escape side control in one of his fights).
This so completely and 100% wrong as to be laughable
Roger ducks his head into Mo as Mo loads up a punch and they clash heads. Incidental head butts are not a penalty. I’d billy madison this, but every sane person has said that in their heads already.
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by Cory Braiterman on Sep 13, 2011 5:37 PM EDT reply actions
Why is it laughable?
If the referee saw the clash of heads and Roger was unable to continue it’d be a No Contest. If Mo had done it deliberately the precedent exists for it to be overturned, so why not here? Maybe you feel it shouldn’t be overturned, but it’s hardly ridiculous to consider it.
Or do you think Nogueira should have won the second Fedor fight by cut stoppage?
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and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
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by VenusBlue on Sep 13, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Roger was able to continue though.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
That’s true, but it definitely didn’t look like a fight ending headbutt.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
I say no to you saying no to rollo's no.
NO
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I say no to your yes
LEAVE ROLLO ALONE!
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by Chris Groves on Sep 13, 2011 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.
by Unabomberman on Sep 13, 2011 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
sure they butt heads, but it’s obvious that it’s the 1st punch that does the damage. Roger has his balance until the punch lands.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Sep 13, 2011 6:02 PM EDT reply actions
It looks more like the punch caused the ko
Business as Usual has a STACKED team. I mean, we could win with just me, but you know.
by halitosis on Sep 13, 2011 8:45 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It's fucked up.
1.- Clash of heads.
2.- Overhand that connects on gracie’s left themple.
3.- Punch to the back of the head that renders Gracie unconscious.
I don’t mean to be dickish but the only correct attack was #2 which, in itself, was facilitated by #1.
The Internets: Where there are no girls and men become children.
It's not an intentional headbutt
So the answer is no.
And King Mo would just KO him again in a rematch, anyway.
I respect your opinion even though it's wrong.
SERIOUSLY?
try watching the vicious punch that connects with gracies temple momments after they briefly brush heads? that is hardly a head butt. id say king mo’s haymaker won the fight
"he will have a two pound reach advantage"- mike goldberg
"illegal unintentional"
You derailed your argument right away.
Oliveira landed illegal knees intentionally. Jones landed illegal elbows intentionally.
This wasn’t intentional.
I respect your opinion even though it's wrong.
You'd have a better case if
the headbutt had felled Gracie. You can make the case that it wobbled Gracie, but what dropped him was the shot Mo landed a second later to the ear. And then when Gracie landed he was out of it, but could have still managed a defense if he had his bearings. It was Mo’s ground punch that finished it. You can argue that the headbutt set up the immediate events but it was by no means the defining blow of the fight.
Which is different from the Oliveira/Lentz fight in that the knee immediately set up the choke. Lentz was completely out of the fight from the knee on and unable to make a proper defense. There’s also the fact that knees on the ground are known to be illegal under any circumstance and have been illegal in that position for years. He didn’t lean into Lentz and accidentally throw the knee. He threw it with pure intent to do harm. It’s a big difference from an accidental butt.
There are a lot of better fights to compare this to than Oliveira vs. Lentz. This article immediately goes to the most extreme example and says following it will give “consistency”, but there’s a ton of fights ended by strikes to the back of the head that were never overturned.
This fight is a pretty unique situation in that the single illegal blow clearly set up the legal fight ending blow. There’s an argument for changing it to a NC but to base it on a comparison to Lentz-Oliveira isn’t going to work.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
Lentz/Oliveira was a fight result that was overturned due to an illegal blow that was ignored by the referee.
There in fact is a stronger argument against overturning that fight in that the illegal knee didn’t necessarily alter the course of the fight and Lentz was well on his way to losing anyways. This illegal clashing of heads in Lawal vs. Gracie directly created the opportunity for the following punches and led to a knockout.
No
I heart Roger Gracie but shit happens, it clearly was not intentional. I dont think it will be the last time we see him in MMA tho
"Sorry, my ear fell off" - Saku
You're straight-up wrong, Ron.
This has no basis. It was an accidental headbutt. Mo could have sustained just as much damage.
Awful point, awful argument.
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Who's Ron?
And an accidental headbutt that made someone unconscious would make a fight a No Contest. Roger was well on his way to being unconscious as a result of that headbutt. It obviously set up the following strikes that ended the fight. I’m not calling for a disqualification here due to an intentional foul, simply a No Contest. I don’t see how my argument haw absolutely no basis, you just apparently don’t like it. You didn’t read my name successfully so how am I supposed to know if you actually read what I wrote successfully to come to such a bold conclusion (which you ironically don’t back up).
by Rob Young on Sep 14, 2011 3:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Henceforth...you are Ron Yundt.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Sep 14, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
this is very sad
i am not a huge fan of king mo but i think you reached a new low rob
and with that … i retire from the be forums … long live the king!
mma is no longer golf
bjj isn't the exclusive country club winner boys!
jon jones is taking over the world
No
Anyone can see that the punches knocked him out and the headsnuggle wasn’t nearly as bad as either punch.
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb."
Can of worms
Madam Sidonie Laveau put a voodoo hex on Shogun before the Jones fight. Should that be overturned too?
Come at me, bro.
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