FTC Investigation of UFC Requested in Letter From Las Vegas Arm of Culinary Workers Union
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 1, 2011 2:18 PM EDT
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One of the underlying stories of the UFC's attempts to get the sport legalized in the state of New York has been the claims by UFC president Dana White that the Culinary Union is behind much of the trouble with the state. Being a powerful union, White thinks that old grudges are at play and keeping the sport from the last important market in the United States. MMA Weekly explains the politics at play:
White believes it is because his partners at Zuffa (the company that owns the UFC), Frank and Lorenzo Fertitta, are also involved in the casino business. Their company, Station Casinos, is one of the largest non-union casino companies in the United States.
This is where the rubber meets the road. The Culinary Union has been trying for years to unionize Station Casinos, but thus far, has been thwarted. This is why White believes they are using their vast resources - the Culinary Union boasts approximately 60,000 members - to stop the Fertittas from bringing their mixed martial arts business to New York.
In a rather aggressive move, the Culinary Workers Union, Local 226 has sent a letter to the Federal Trade Commission requesting they investigate the UFC for violation of antitrust laws.
There had already been plenty of rumors that the FTC was putting together an investigation over the previous months and then on the 21st it was reported that the UFC had retained the services of Axinn-Veltrop-Harkrider, LLP, a firm with an extensive background in these types of cases.
So, the culinary union letter is less an actual plea for investigation as it is a powerful player putting their weight behind the idea that an investigation is necessary.
The truly interesting thing about the letter is that Local 226 is the Las Vegas branch, so they're going at things right from Zuffa's base. One of the biggest stories on the front page of the Local 226 website is a story about Station Casino firing Latino workers.
Bloody Elbow was provided a copy of the letter (which was dated August 31, 2011) and have provided excerpts after the jump.
The letter talks at length about the union's perceived problems with:
a) "Automatic renewal" contract provisions such as the "champion's clause," which extends the contract of an athlete who becomes a champion. Such clauses effectively prevent some athletes who sign contracts with Zuffa from becoming free agents and negotiating for higher pay.
b) Exclusive negotiation and "right to match" clauses that lock athletes into negotiating with Zuffa for a period after their contracts have expired. These clauses diminish the ability and incentive of smaller promotions to bid for top mixed martial arts athletes.
c) Merchandise and ancillary rights agreements that require athletes to forfeit their image and likeness rights "in perpetuity," or forever. These far-reaching agreements deprive athletes of the freedom to make money from their own success and further bind them to Zuffa indefinitely.
They continue:
These contractual restraints can have the effect of forcing some athletes under contract with the UFC to negotiate with one buyer, depriving them of any real barganing power and depressing pay below competitive levels. The Mixed Martial Arts Fighters Association estimates that professional mixed martial arts athletes received just 5.7 percent of total gate and pay-per-view revenues at five UFC events in 2009 while athletes who compete in other pro sports organiations receive 50 percent or more of revenues.
More on the claimed anticompetitive behavior:
Professional sports leagues have sought to justify restraints on athlete mobility by arguing that such restraints are necessary to maintain a competitive balance among teams, and thereby maintain spectator interest. In some cases, courts have agreed. In American Needle v. the National Football League, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that competitive balance is "unquestionably an interest that may well justify a variety of collective decisions made by the teams."
However, Zuffa does not operate as a professional league, and thus cannot justify its restrictive behavior as being necessary to preserve a competitive balance in mixed martial arts. Zuffa is a private limited liability partnership that promotes and produces professional mixed martial arts events for the benefit of its owners. The anticompetitive restrictions it imposes on athlete mobility serve no legitimate business justification beyond stifling competition and increasing Zuffa's already dominant position in the market.
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this is pretty fucking interesting
do you guys think there is any real chance anything ever comes of this?
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
Hard to say. One of the real questions is if the FTC gets it in their head that there is finally a sport that isn’t SO big and SO powerful that they can put on a show with or not.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 1, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
yea but is it likely that the FTC would just go after zuffa to prove a point?
and does zuffa even work with the culinary union at all? or is their part in this simply due to their problems with station casinos?
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
From RobNashville on twitter
He’s the guy who broke this story years ago:
CU fights Fertittas on any and all fronts.. casino mgmt contracts in Mizzou and Wisconsin, in the mma arena, new casino construction in LV..
Follow me on twitter @MattRoth512
pissing off unions really is messy business
whats the worst case scenario with this whole situation?
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
Station Casinos unionizes, the CWU let their foot off the FTC Investigation pedal?
Maybe some fines here or there? I dunno.
That is what I would call the best case scenario, not worst...
"I´ve seen the future of the whole fucking thing and it´s Big Man Clarence Clemons!"
- Bruce Springsteen
The world became a less amazing place on June 18 2011, with the death of Clarence Clemons. R.I.P. Big Man, you will be sorely missed.
Some people don´t like the saxophone, but if you can´t rock to the Jungleland solo, you are dead inside!
I'd go all the way out to call it a "terrific scenario".
But then I’m all for trade unions sticking it to shitty employers.
Cannot imagine they’d unionize. Even if they did and CWU goes away, now that the FTC has taken an interest Bellator or anyone else can basically copy/paste the complaint and get the FTC interested again. In which case Zuffa will be right back where they started but with Station unionized.
I think they will have to fight this one on its merits and get a decision.
Seems like the CU is upset that they don’t hold all the cards in Vegas.
Hypothetically, if the CU were in control in Vegas, and a culinary worker did not belong to the union…..would that worker be able to find employment in Vegas? My guess is no. So, the union wants the gov’t to break up a supposed monopoly mostly because it interferes with their own monopoly…
No sir, I don't like it.
Surprised by a union's shady antics?
Like when they take money to keep “our politicians” in office? It’s a bunch of corrupt bullshit, but they usually get what they want.
Anderson Silva is, and forever will be the greatest of all time.
Where can I buy my Cerrone cowboy hat?
by halitosis on Sep 1, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It’s against Station Casinos owned by the Ferttitas which uses non union workers. These guys are using union money to grease up politicians and fight the UFC which has nothing to do with their cause.
I did recognize the politicization. It’s really unfair to the CU members (those who don’t really care about Station Casinos) whose money is being used for other purposes.
I was making the case that unions themselves use monopolistic tactics.
No sir, I don't like it.
Absolutley,
These guys need to justify the salaries the union members are paying them its like these totalitarian regimes that need to deflect the attention from them to a common enemy.
omo plata
This is a mixed bag for me. I am a union member and I love mma. A union is going to use the resources it has on hand to win. Just like Zuffa will. Now, I am against the CU forcing Zuffas hand, but, that is business. There is nothing illegal, unethical or immoral abot what the CU is suggesting. Its no secret that new york is a pro union state. It is also no secret that nevada is a pro union state. This is merely leverage on the part of the CU too gain the Vegas workers and union better pay and benefits. I bet anyone that if stations allows the union that new york adopts mma. To me, it is one hell of a power play by the CU. Look how fast the NFL AVOIDED antitrust legislation. Hell, the NFL owners mandated the players recertify as a part if the NFL labor agreement.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
by whardiek on Sep 1, 2011 3:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
union workers make more than their non union counterparts.
Thoughts like this have ruined the economy and the middle class.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 4:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Union workers absolutely make more than their non-union counterparts. However, non-union employees should seek to attain similar benefits, not to bring everybody down to the same level.
No sir, I don't like it.
And how do non-union employees
Negotiate for similar pay/benfits? Collective bargaining?
:p - orcus
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
Right
And in a job market like this, threatening to leave is a good tactic.
:p - orcus
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
So what you're saying
Is that most workers aren’t worth the raise right now, which is true.
Not afraid to nitpick
Well here's the problem with your argument
The greatest influence the union’s had was getting rights and decent pay for unskilled/unspecialized laborers. The factory workers and other jobs where someone could walk in off the street and get the job and perform decently.
In that kind of position, no single person is invaluable to “the company”. They’re individually disposable and were treated as such with low pay and poor benefits. So, any of these people walking in by themselves demanding better compensation is likely to get tossed. Unions gave these people leverage, and in some cases continue to do so.
Unions are for the service staff not the managers (who may or may not to be able to leverage advancement on their own).
:p - orcus
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
Yes
That means those people who aren’t invaluable to a given company aren’t valuable and aren’t worth higher pay. If you are doing something that literally anyone can do, you aren’t valuable. And at this point in history—-yes, thanks to the past work of unions—-the types of ultra low pay and benefits that are in fact predatory are illegal (in the US anyway…).
Aside from that, the situation you speak of was in monopolized, geographically or otherwise, mature industries which below I did say I see the value of a union. If there is competition for someone’s services, they will end up being paid reasonably close to what they are worth if they decide to exercise the slightest bit of their own power (which does exist). If they don’t, then that’s their fault.
For most industries at this given point, unions are just as bad as a corporate cartel—-they are the same thing in concept—-and a similar sort of economic drag. That aren’t outlawed solely because of the ridiculous political power they wield. It’s not the end all be all of American problems in the least, but they aren’t helping things either.
Good day sir haha.
Not afraid to nitpick
There are still a lot of very real issues for unions to deal with. Cost of living wage increases and affordable insurance, off the top of my head. While many non-union companies take these into consideration, Union work is definitely an influence.
:p - orcus
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
The only thing you fail to mention
here and probably most important considering the circumstances is the lack of competition for these fighters to have the bargaining power to walk away and seek higher compensation. This is noted in the letter as part of their concerns which makes fantastic sense.
Competition is what allows our economic policies to work in harmonious fashion without any one entity being able to run away with the market in question.
The problem in MMA lay simply with the lack of competition. Just look at the NFL, or NBA for instance, and at first glance it may seem very much the same. Competitive sport where money equals skill/stardom. Now remove the teams and what do you have? Well nothing.
Point here is that MMA doesn’t have teams where one can be traded and seek compensation based on demand for said persons skills. Every man is essentially his own team, but this man cannot go anywhere else except to work for the UFC. Sure, they can go to smaller promotions and make decent pay but we all understand that isn’t the point, nor the goal in life.
The UFC is in a very unique position, where as it stands now, I feel are taking advantage of its leverage. For better or worse, we cannot speculate yet.
Since financial records are kept under wrap, no one expect the suits at Zuffa know exactly where they stand, or what position they are in to pay the fighters. If you were to ask me, I would say considering the age of the sport, and the amount of time and resource spent on expanding the company and the increase in pay across the board, that it is probably where it should and most likely a little under.
Never put off till tomorrow what you can accomplish today.
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by whilewereatit on Sep 1, 2011 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
What I meant was that the questions being asked, and the arguments being engaged in, by the non-union workers, are not the correct ones.
You are right, the negotiations are virtually nonexistent without some sort of collective bargaining.
I believe what is killing fair labor is not unions (or lack of- in some cases) – but the “us vs them” mentality among the middle class.
No sir, I don't like it.
Very fair point
I work in retail. And I’ve seen non-union companies handle some basic practices much better than the union company I currently work for.
:p - orcus
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
And judges
Can’t forget who has more judges in their pockets
But Zuffa culinary workers get generous lockerroom bonuses
"Another set of scars to boast"
by Dangit! on Sep 1, 2011 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
One thing that I don't get
Is this is all because Station Casinos is anti-union. How does blocking MMA in NY and a FTC investigation help change that?
Follow me on twitter @MattRoth512
Because if they can push their weight around enough in the MMA arena, then they can get what they want where they really want it.
It’s why I hate belonging to a Union, but I do anyways because it’s a good job and great benefits.
by Empty Thoughts on Sep 1, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean let’s say that things are settled with the Fertittas for Station. Sure MMA gets regulated in NY but it’s not like the FTC will pull back. Once they start an investigation, you can’t stop it because you reach a settlement.
Follow me on twitter @MattRoth512
You can always work it out. A powerful union can just as easily say "we’ve talked to them about fixing x, y and z and now feel that things are blahblahblah.
And start to help figure out how to move forward.
Plus, this has been going on for YEARS so they’re just going to really go to fucking town with bigger weapons.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 1, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
They had enough power to get this thing started, they will have enough to end it if needed. People honestly don’t realize how much money is still tied up in Unions and how much of that goes to politicians who can kill whatever they want.
If they get what they want, this will die a quiet death aside from a few journalists questioning what happened to it all.
by Empty Thoughts on Sep 1, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, Unions suck.
the artist formerly known as amadeus
'I don't make my living by making my living. My time is so important that I can't compromise my taste- or my idea of what's right- simply to match someone else's view of what's a good, calculated move"- Robert Plant
contributing writer at www.HeadkickLegend.com and www.PatsPulpit.com
by Austin Martin on Sep 1, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
There's a time and place for unions.
After all, we all enjoy certain benefits thanks to the work of unions back in the day.
Lately though, I’m not overly fond of how powerful unions have gotten – I believe the pendulum has swung the other way – but I can’t be one to really harp on unions since my gf is part of one and gets great pay and benefits that I indirectly enjoy as part of it.
She’s worked as a nurse for a year now, and already got two “raises.” When she told me that, I laughed and said, “Raises are based on merrit. You did nothing to technically earn it. That was a contractually obligated pay increase that your union negotiated.” Now, the 3% raise I got this year? I had to work hard for that as a non union employee. I thought I deserved more, but when in a year when people are being let go left/right and center, I tend to keep my mouth shut when I got a raise instead.
by pud333 on Sep 1, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
nice insight.
I generally dislike unions but try not to bash…..
The problem is – with no unions, we wouldn’t universally get better benefits/pay, we (working class) would all be brought down a notch.
Non-union workers should not be asking “why the union members get better pay/benefits”…..we SHOULD be asking “why we all don’t get those better pay/benefits WITHOUT union arbitration”. Most of us haven’t seen it in our lifetimes but we all know the dangers of unchecked corporate greed.
No sir, I don't like it.
corporate greed
and union greed have become eerily similar.
the artist formerly known as amadeus
'I don't make my living by making my living. My time is so important that I can't compromise my taste- or my idea of what's right- simply to match someone else's view of what's a good, calculated move"- Robert Plant
contributing writer at www.HeadkickLegend.com and www.PatsPulpit.com
by Austin Martin on Sep 1, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Non-union workers should not be asking "why the union members get better pay/benefits"…..we SHOULD be asking "why we all don’t get those better pay/benefits WITHOUT union arbitration".
Yup. Pretty much.
IMO, live is all about balance. We all know how harmful corporations can be, but unions can be just as harmful. In Canada, there is a big problem with workers and employers, such as Canada Post or Air Canada. A big problem is benefits, such as the defined benefits plan, which is too expensive for employers to maintain, which is why they are dying out. Employers want to get rid of them, since a lot of those plans are paying out more money to more employees taking benefits, than new and current employees putting money into the plan, hence it is bleeding the corporation. What it amounts to, is the previous generations negotiated themselves so good a deal, that they fucked over all the following generations of employees. I find a lot of times unions will negotiate what is best for the current flock of union members, without thinking about the future or how their actions (greed) now will be detrimental to the long term success. They don’t know how to strike a balance, and neither do corporations for that matter.
If you think unions suck...
try a capitalist economy without them. 1830s England wasn’t a fun place to be a worker. And before you say “Well, that’s silly, we’d never return to that,” the FIRST thing school districts did in Wisconsin once Gov. Walker stripped public teachers (and others) of collective bargaining was cut sick days in half, with a goal of zero. Anti-union politicians are on record as being against the minimum wage and child labor laws.
Without unions, we aren’t so far away from 1810s London factories beating 6 year-olds and locking in workers during their shifts.
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
by duck on Sep 1, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
prone to hyperbole?
Not only did I NOT say that I think “unions suck”…..
I said:
“…with no unions, we wouldn’t universally get better benefits/pay, we (working class) would all be brought down a notch…”
Meaning NO UNIONS = GENERALLY BAD
Please, next time, actually read the post before you criticize.
No sir, I don't like it.
I do think Unions suck...
I was a school teacher for 5 years and saw unions at work first hand. Look at NY public schools…they have a building to house teachers accused of wrong doing that they can’t/don’t want to put around children until a full hearing. You say so what….wel those teachers are getting paid their full salary and benefits of tax payer money for showing up to the building a goofing around for 8 hours.
I worked in a school where a teacher left her students unattended. A student who was under house arrest (the school and teacher were aware of this) beat the crap out of another student. The union used our dues a fought for over a year for her to keep her job before final a court charge of gender discrimination…because I don’t work in NYC, she kept teaching every day.
Unions serve a purpose but they have crossed the line. They are a hinderance, especially in these economic times. Put it this way, the 3 largest unions in the US are: teachers, airlines, and auto industry. Which one of those industry would you like to point to as a shining example?
so the few abuse power that helps the many?
That happens with anything. Overall unions protect people and make sure they receive a fair wage
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 5:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s convenient for politicians to blame unions for the problems of some industries, but if you actually look a little bit closer at those problems, the unions often play a smaller roll then our conservative representatives would like you to believe.
That isn’t to say that unions are perfect and that no one takes advantage of there union, just that those problems aren’t as significant as people tend to think. This is especially apparent when you examine those industries in other countries, who also have unions (yea, unions exist outside of America, I know, it’s crazy!).
So let’s look at those industries you’ve mentioned.
Education :
America has fallen to a 14th overall in terms of education (math/science/reading comprehension). Conservatives would argue that it is unions that are ruining the education system in America. They say that union teachers are just lazy and don’t want to teach. They become teachers because it’s an easy paycheck and you can never get fired. Somehow, they ignore the fact that the top 5 nations also have very strong teachers unions. They ignore that fact because their goal isn’t to fix the education system, it’s to get rid of unions.
Airlines:
Again, conservative politicians would have you believe that the problem is union workers demanding too much money. Again, there are strong unions in other countries. Beyond that, if you just stop and think about how airlines make money, it’s obvious that they have much larger problems then union pay.
The economy is in the crapper, and when that happens people stop flying places when they don’t have to. The price of fuel is way up, and it costs way more to actually fly a plane now. So now they have a fewer people willing to spend money on their service, and higher operating costs. That seems like a pretty big problem.
US Auto:
In a post below I explained why the union was not the cause of the decline of the US auto industry, but something I didn’t mention was that Japan, who has the most successful auto industry, also has very strong auto-workers unions. In fact their auto-unions might even be stronger then the American ones.
Unions are not to blame for Americas problems. If a politician is telling you they are, s/he isn’t actually trying to fix our country, they are trying to score political points.
if you ever come to tampa drinks are on me.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 7:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Funny...
I never mentioned anything about politics and instead gave specific examples but your entire arguement is “you must listen to conservative politicians”. It is a shame every discussion or debate has to turn into political lines. I would argue if you get your information from the union or the liberal politicians you are just listening to opinions bought and paid for. Let’s be real here. NEA (the teachers union) donated $4.5 million dollars to the democratic party for the 2008 and 2010 elections, teamsters donated $4.7 million, United Autoworkers $3.6 million, and on and on and on. In 2008 alone unions contributed $76.5 million. Since 1990 they have contributed over $615 million to the democratic party.
Oh yeah, and do you think the actual people who paid those union dues had a say if their money was going to support a poltical party? Of course not.
Now for your basic points…
Teachers Union…I wont talk out my a$$ and pretend I know what the unions goals are in other countries. But I will tell you that in the US their goal is not to fix or improve education (as you claim conservative politicians don’t want to do….funny though the only legislation in the last quarter of a century or more aimed trying to improve education came from a conservative president). The unions are willing to fight to the death to keep things status quo. I have lived and breathed it.They don’t want to allow year round schooling even though there is a ton of research that shows retention of knowledge is lost over the extended summer break and teachers the next year are then forced to reteach instead of contiuing to advance a students knowledge. Unions refuse to allow teacher salaries be based on merit or tied to student improvement. I can go on and on about this all day. But don’t try to pretend the unions are looking out for the good overall. The are anything but.
Airlines…
Airlines do have a huge problme in this economy. No one has ever argued that they dont. But unions are a huge piece of the problem. Yes fuel cost more and fewer people are flying. But the unions would rather see entire companies shut down than take a pay cuts. Talk to some of those in airlines who actually have to pay into the union if they feel their unions have done a good job looking out for them.
Auto…
We can argue all day about this. I didn’t see you post below. But the collapse of the industry has a number of root causes and plenty of blame to go around. The industry hung on to older 20th century models instead of innovative and more green options; more competition of higher quality (the US big 3 lost 20% of their market share from 1998 to 2008), health care (GM paid over $5 billion a year in health care benefits….every car they put out cost approximately $1500 more just to help offset health care costs), and unions (GM workers in 2008 made nearly $80 an hour (including benefits) and refused negotiate or reduce their demands even when the industry was crawling to the governemnt for loans just to stay afloat).
"your entire arguement is "you must listen to conservative politicians""
Did you even read my post? I’d like to believe that my argument was pretty clear and that you missed it. But just to be sure, I’ll spell it out for you. If unions really are the industry killer you believe them be, then the world wide leaders of each industry must be union free. But that isn’t the case. In fact, the opposite is true, so your belief is proven to be wrong.
For the record, I don’t belong to a political party. I like to call myself a shades-of-gray-moderate. I actually like to research both sides of an argument because the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.
I read your post...
And this is what I saw:
You start off with “It’s convenient for politicians to blame unions for the problems of some industries, but if you actually look a little bit closer at those problems, the unions often play a smaller roll then our conservative representatives would like you to believe.”
Followed by “Conservatives would argue that it is unions that are ruining the education system in America. They say that union teachers are just lazy and don’t want to teach.” And go on and on about “They”
Followed by “Again, conservative politicians…”
And ending with “If a politician is telling you they are, s/he isn’t actually trying to fix our country, they are trying to score political points.”
I am sure I missed some of your other political stamping but you get the point. Your political message was very clear.
Now for your new arguement…“If unions really are the industry killer you believe them be, then the world wide leaders of each industry must be union free.” This is a fallacy. This makes huge assumptions that every union is the exact same (acts the same, has the same goals, uses the same tatics, etc.) and every environment is the exact same (they have the same issues, negotiate with the same people, have the same cultural norms, have the same issues, etc). And that is obviously not the case.
I hate to break it to you, but the whole anti-union thing is conservative propaganda… and so is the notion that if something isn’t perfect, we have to do away with it completely. Political arguments (like any argument about unions) always end up with people reciting party lines and propaganda, and arguing black and white view points. I hate the political discourse these days because there can only be two sides.
I never said unions were perfect. In fact, I said that they weren’t perfect. I said that there were corrupt individuals who will take advantage of being in a union, and I believe that some unions make some very bad decisions. And the same is true for foreign unions as well. Do you think there is no waste or corruption in foreign unions?
But besides unions imperfections, they also do good things, even in this day and age. I know a women who works at a grocery store. She works in the bakery department and is responsible for stocking “the bread wall.” Every morning she takes bushels of bread and sticks them in these cubby holes along the wall. Some of these cubby holes are over her head and one day she hurt her back (I think she slipped a disk) while reaching to put the bread in one of these higher cubby holes.
The company denied her claim for workers comp and time off to heal from the surgery she needed. Fortunately, she is a member of a union, and her union went to bat for her. I am sure there are thousands of stories like this around the country, but we don’t hear them because they don’t fit the conservative narrative, and because liberals are too stupid to tell them.
The bottom line is that unions do more good then bad, and that we are better off with them, then without them. They are issues with them that we should examine, and try to fix, but doing away with them is not the answer.
The times are gone
The downfall of the US economy in the early 70s was due to union unrealistic benefits and wages. Unions were created to protect the workers but have no place in today’s economy. Let alone a union that instead of using its member’s fees to help them, using it to fight an unrelated cause.
The first sentence of your post isn’t true, that’s a myth. I guess it probably played some role, but very very minor.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
Agreed
Things like the first oil shock, high inflation, obscene tax rates and supply side contraction were all more directly related.
Not a myth at all,
The fact that salaries were so high created less demand for American products as they were really expansive. In order to survive in the global economy which is a free market there is a need for price competition which cannot be achieved by using unions Take a look at the US car industry mediocre product for a price of much better Japanese cars.
Many of the Japanese cars sold in the US are actually made here by union workers…
The decline of the auto industry in the US has more to do with the company leadership then the union workers. They produced shitty, ugly, vehicles and bet the farm on gas guzzling SUV’s.
I would say
it has more to do with our political lobbying system than anything else. Ask yourself – “who stands to benefit?” – just follow the money trail and questions are usually answered.
Who would lobby to fight the emergence of technologies that compete with the current system?
Same reason “green energy is more expensive”. Green energy in reality is cheaper, but tax money subsidizes coal production, making it seem like the cheaper fuel in the short-term.
So, in reality, the American car companies could have had the technology for fast, efficient cars decades ago….but the fossil fuel industry is so entrenched in the current political system….now with the recent changes to the campaign contribution laws things are going to get even more out of hand.
No sir, I don't like it.
I'm sure that played a big part.
But the problem really boils down to the fact that people weren’t interested in buying American cars. Why? It wasn’t because they were too expensive.
They weren’t appealing. They looked like shit, they were poorly designed, and the big wigs in charge were too complacent to fix those problems.
I mean really, does anyone think people weren’t buying the Pontiac Aztec because of them darn unions?
lol Sqwibbs
I don't know how Anderson Silva can even walk around right now with all the nuthuggers out there. Can't wait til Chael fucks him up in their next fight. Hopefully he goes over and slaps ed "open mouth" soares afterwards as well.
I'm a car guy and an American.
I love cars and America.
Unfortunately, for the longest time, I couldn’t justify buying an American car because they all sucked dongs. They were all grandma cars. After looking at a 1993 Ford Taurus, I couldn’t get a boner for hours.
The “unions killed the American car industry” meme is a myth. If it were true, it would have meant that they US OEM’s couldn’t make money when they sold their cars at a competitive price, but that isn’t what happened.
The US cars were priced right, and the OEM’s would have made money off them if people would buy them, but no one wanted them. That had nothing to do with the unions.
by Sqwibbs on Sep 1, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
exactly!
Engineering and management aren’t union jobs.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 5:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Salaries being higher means more disposable income, greatly increasing domestic demand for consumer goods. Simultaneously you’re right, that would cause exports to go down. So we see a positive effect coupled with a negative effect.
Conversely, the oil shock had a uniformly negative affect. And it was far, far more profound.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
Really?
Because the 1970s was the last time the average worker’s pay increased faster than inflation. It’s been all downhill for the middle class since Reagan in 1981.
The last 100 years of US history shows that the periods of highest union membership were the highest growths od GDP and average wages.
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Unions
Do have their benefits but not in the way they are run today. Of course GDP would have grown because manufactures were forced to produce to satisfy the unions or artificially government made jobs.
bullshit
I love how people just make shit up.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 4:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No you don't
:p - orcus
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
lol
You’re right…. I kinda just made that part up.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 5:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
When she told me that, I laughed and said, "Raises are based on merrit. You did nothing to technically earn it. That was a contractually obligated pay increase that your union negotiated."
You’re a very loving man :P
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"I’m ready. It doesn’t matter with who or where. On foot or on horseback. With maces or poleaxes. To fight. To first blood or to death. It doesn’t matter, I’m ready to fight. I went hunting. For bears. With a knife. " - Aleksander Emelianenko
by John Danaher's Hair on Sep 1, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
It was the truth.
After all, she told me never to lie to her, so I’m really just listening to what she told me to do.
I was joking...
so you tell her when a dress makes her ass look fat/flat? Honesty is an overrated virtue my friend.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"I’m ready. It doesn’t matter with who or where. On foot or on horseback. With maces or poleaxes. To fight. To first blood or to death. It doesn’t matter, I’m ready to fight. I went hunting. For bears. With a knife. " - Aleksander Emelianenko
by John Danaher's Hair on Sep 1, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I know.
But I wouldn’t go so far as to tell her that her ass looked fat in something. No, sir. I would like to live at least another thirty years.
I agree completely and as I said, I am and have been a Union member for 17 years now.
Then again though, I have a VERY secure job with a good 10,000 people who would have to be laid off before I’d have any fears of it myself. Hard to argue against that in this economy.
by Empty Thoughts on Sep 1, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely. I’d be surprised to see any union member argue against the value of unions. I recognize they offer some benefits to the workers, but they’ve become too powerful and influential in politics. To me, that is a monstrous problem.
the artist formerly known as amadeus
'I don't make my living by making my living. My time is so important that I can't compromise my taste- or my idea of what's right- simply to match someone else's view of what's a good, calculated move"- Robert Plant
contributing writer at www.HeadkickLegend.com and www.PatsPulpit.com
by Austin Martin on Sep 1, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. If they start winning these battles, eventually Station will go “fuck, fine…you’re in” and accept the unions to get the wins in other areas
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Sep 1, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
zuffa contracts are horrible.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 2:13 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Why do athletes sign them then?
the artist formerly known as amadeus
'I don't make my living by making my living. My time is so important that I can't compromise my taste- or my idea of what's right- simply to match someone else's view of what's a good, calculated move"- Robert Plant
contributing writer at www.HeadkickLegend.com and www.PatsPulpit.com
by Austin Martin on Sep 1, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
many workers have worked under unfair conditions
the existence of them in use isn’t an argumnt against flaws inherent.
by Urijah Bieber on Sep 1, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wanted to talk to you about Relson's style of BJJ
he has a gym down here.
Follow me on twitter @MattRoth512
you mean the best style?
Query away my friend.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 5:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Relson is all about basics, BASICS,BASICS!
Always thinking about the fight, not just the tournament.
Very Close to Roger Gracie’s style. Take down, mount, submit.
His nick name is “Campeao” it means champion. Relson never lost or even had his guard passed in Bjj competition. Very smooth technique, doesn’t focus on power.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 5:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
fixed
zuffaMMA contracts are horrible
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"I’m ready. It doesn’t matter with who or where. On foot or on horseback. With maces or poleaxes. To fight. To first blood or to death. It doesn’t matter, I’m ready to fight. I went hunting. For bears. With a knife. " - Aleksander Emelianenko
by John Danaher's Hair on Sep 1, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
true story
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 5:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
my personal hope
is that station casinos get unionized and not a damn thing happens to the ufc.
The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
Please read my sardonic wit and over-blown sense of self over at headkicklegend.com
why?
Why should Zuffa have to bend to the whims of the CU? Because they (CU) can flex some political muscle? Understandable, but total BS.
They should be allowed to hire whomever they want to, union or not.
No sir, I don't like it.
Do you think the main role of a union is to determine who a company is “allowed” to hire? That’s not what a union does, my friend.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
Uhhh that is a very, very, very important part of a union's power
Like, without that power, unions probably wouldn’t exist in any sort of the form they do now. See: Right to Work states.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Sep 1, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
worker unity keeps unions together.
We still have power in numbers and skill.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 5:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Some unions do all the hiring, but that’s not a common practice at all! Is it common where you live for unions to handle staffing? I’ve heard of places running that way, but have no experience with any.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
Actually I think my original post was dumb semantics. Some companies have representatives from the union do staffing, but that’s rare, which is what I meant. The union has a huge role in determining who works for the company, so Omo isn’t wrong, he just could have worded better.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
because in general
unions are a good thing and have helped this and other countries tremendously.
The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
Please read my sardonic wit and over-blown sense of self over at headkicklegend.com
by Cory Braiterman on Sep 1, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah sure they have haha
I don't know how Anderson Silva can even walk around right now with all the nuthuggers out there. Can't wait til Chael fucks him up in their next fight. Hopefully he goes over and slaps ed "open mouth" soares afterwards as well.
There are a lot of arguments against modern union practices
And many particulars that I don’t appreciate in the union I belong to.
But you can’t intelligently deny they positive influence they’ve had on working conditions and practices
:p - orcus
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
If the Fertitta's really believe that MMA has the potential to be the # 1 sport in the world...
And NY is such a key battleground, why not unionize stations? Sure, it’s a pain in the ass for the Fertitta’s, but they should eventually be making so much $ with the UFC that the extra costs of having unionized staff at the casino would be negligible. Also, it doesn’t hurt to have unions on your side.
"If I wanted to spend a half hour between two hairy legs I'd go to your mother's house." -Don Frye
MMA doesn't necessarily have to be legal in NY for the UFC to be successful in the mainstream.
I figure the Fertittas will hold off until the last possible moment. Guys with power don’t like to give that shit up. Not one bit.
Why should they? Then they just subject themselves to endless power plays and overpaying for work.
the artist formerly known as amadeus
'I don't make my living by making my living. My time is so important that I can't compromise my taste- or my idea of what's right- simply to match someone else's view of what's a good, calculated move"- Robert Plant
contributing writer at www.HeadkickLegend.com and www.PatsPulpit.com
by Austin Martin on Sep 1, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Because workers have a right to greater control over their jobs and the workplace.
There is no such thing as overpaying for work. If the union successfully organizes a workplace, they gain some control over the supply of labor there, thus taking a stronger position in the negotiation of pay. In this way they are able to secure higher wages. That is how markets work.
As for power plays, the company’s motives are not pure or altruistic. They don’t want the union because the owners think it will cost them money and power. We are discussing a struggle in which two sides are fighting over non-infinite resources. The crucial fact is that the Fertittas are millionaires try to hold on to privilege, while the casino workers are working people fighting for fair treatment. And that is why the ethical position is always pro-union. There is no way to justify taking a position in favor of greed or inequality.
Umm
That is how markets work.
Not really. Companies aren’t allowed to band together and collectively decide to lower wages, that’s called a cartel and I’m sure you’d be jumping for their throats if they tried that “market” tactic. Unions are decidedly not “market” based. The rest of it, whatever, but the “market” argument—-just no.
Not afraid to nitpick
Sure they are
Unions are the only way labor – the people who actually do the jobs and work – can exercise power in their own self-interest, which lies at the heart of Adam Smith’s theory of capitalism. It requires that all work in their own best interests for a “free market” system to work at its most efficient.
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
And if we followed that to the tee
The group of shareholders that control a corporation would act in their own self interest and go talk to the shareholders of the other corporation, and collude to keep wages lower. Adam Smith’s theory ain’t perfect, especially in the global economy.
Not afraid to nitpick
Workers are not owners and unions are not corporations. Unions are good for people. Corporate cartels are bad for people. Therefore, the government should support unions and break up cartels. I would be perfectly happy if the government simply employed everyone directly, but as long as we are going to have markets of the type we do now, it is the government’s responsibility to protect workers from their employers.
No point in even arguing since you're too far gone
But you clearly missed that whole 20th century experiment in command economies that failed in each and every country that gave it a try.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Sep 1, 2011 6:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m assuming that you were referring to his line of gov’t employing everyone, but on the off chance you aren’t, unions and command economies don’t really have anything at all to do with each other.
The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
Please read my sardonic wit and over-blown sense of self over at headkicklegend.com
by Cory Braiterman on Sep 1, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes that was what I was referring to
Arguing economics with someone who wasn’t awake for the defining question of the 2nd half of the 20th century is pointless.
Not afraid to nitpick
Because workers have a right to greater control over their jobs and the workplace.
You would be correct there. I don’t think anyone would argue with you on that.
There is no such thing as overpaying for work.
Yes, there is. I know plenty of people who are outright overpaid for what they do/contribute. eg: A friend of mine makes 80K a year working for the local Hydro company. She manages four people under her. That’s it. She consistently has nothing to do during large parts of the day, so one day she goes to her boss to ask for more work, and her boss says, “Well, you can a) take a longer lunch b) Come in to work later. c) Go home earlier. d) Do all or part of the above.” I shit you not. My friend told me this, and I basically freaked out on her. It was just in the news the week before that hydro rates were increasing again. So my money is going to pay for her working less? WTF? Oh, and she recently got a huge pay increase.
There is no way to justify taking a position in favor of greed or inequality.
Then you should be against some unions. Not all unions are as good as they claim to be. At the end of the day, unions are made up of people who are looking out for themselves.
This goes back to my point above regarding a need for balance in the workplace, which I don’t believe there is right now.
small sample size
if your intent is to mention that government jobs or union jobs are all that cushy. My roommate is union for example, and he puts in 10+ hour days with regularity.
The artful muppet formerly known as KrmtDfrog.
Please read my sardonic wit and over-blown sense of self over at headkicklegend.com
by Cory Braiterman on Sep 1, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course anyone can come up with anecdotal evidence. My point though was that you can’t look at it black and white. Not all unions are healthy, not all high wages are justified. I know plenty of union workers who deserve every penny they earn, and plenty that don’t, just like I know plenty of non union workers who are good for the money, and others who are just shit.
Alright hell I'll go for the rest of it
The ethical argument is so short sighted I don’t know where to start. Unions unquestionably even up the distribution of wealth, no one is going to argue that one, it’d be more “fair” for fighters to make money now at the expense of the Fertittas. Unfortunately, this same “fairness” limits the company’s capital and business flexibility, which just murders growth. You think they’d be able to fund the same advertising campaigns, the same international investment—-the same investment in everything? You think those things are good or bad for business long term?
Aside from even that, it unquestionably reduces the number of people employed. You think they’d be able to have as many prelim fights if all their pay was raised?
There is no better case study for the effects of rampant union dominance than the US auto industry. Without the US government funding all these ridiculous benefits, there would be zero auto jobs, which seems to be a frequent outcome for heavily unionized industries. But I’m sure it was super duper fair and ethical for the years that those businesses did manage to stay afloat.
In monopolized, mature industries, I can very easily see the value of a union. However, unions in a growth industry, or one in which there’s almost any level of competition for employment—-I think are as crazy as letting those same companies form a cartel. If you don’t want to work for the salary that the employer is willing to offer, then don’t work for that employer—-there are other options and they aren’t allowed to cartel together either, so if you are actually worth more, someone will pay you more. If you are willing to work for the salary offered, then you are necessarily getting paid a fair salary.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Sep 1, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Joker24 - Nice to see someone gets it
I don't know how Anderson Silva can even walk around right now with all the nuthuggers out there. Can't wait til Chael fucks him up in their next fight. Hopefully he goes over and slaps ed "open mouth" soares afterwards as well.
Random thoughts on your post:
Why is it a requirement for better fighter pay to murder growth? Couldn’t they pay themselves a few less million dollars each year? It’s not like we are talking about each fighter making millions of dollars or anything.
The MMA talent pool seems to be drying up. Better compensation (like, I dunno, being able to buy more then Ketchup AND rice) would likely draw more real talent into the sport. Most fighters literally cannot support themselves in this business.
Your Pat Barry point isn't exactly fair
As we have no idea what part Barry’s money management skills factored into the situation before the Hardonk fight.
:p - orcus
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
If I weren’t at work, I would go see if I can find what his disclosed pay was to see if I could put some weight behind the example…
I was mobile when I wrote this, but I'm not now
7k for loss to Hague (May 23, 2009)
10k for destroying the legs of Evenson (Dec 27, 2008)
That’s 17K in 6 months to last him til Oct 24 of ‘09. That’s a pretty livable wage, IMO. The counterpoints are obviously camp and training expenses. However, remember that we don’t know what his sponsorship situation was at this point so I think we have to leave those details out.
Btw, I’m not trying to say undercard fighters shouldn’t be paid more. Just that the intangibles of the specific example didn’t make for a fair argument.
:p - orcus
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
To be honest, the ketchup and rice thing was just a half-hearted joke. I wasn’t trying to use Pat specifically.
I know
But if we aren’t here to argue for no reason, why are we here?
:p - orcus
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
Your last sentence is clearly false. People do not have total freedom as to where they live, where they work, what field they work in, or the conditions of their work. They usually do not have the option of simply leaving a job because it is underpaid. In my experience, nearly everyone who works for a living is underpaid while the parasitical — and here I include most executives and owners — are vastly overpaid.
The people who run the American auto industry decided for decades to produce vehicles that were relatively undesirable, inefficient, and of low quality. This had nothing to do with the unions. The unions made the auto industry a better place for workers. In any case, I’m not interested in any company’s profitability. If an company cannot be profitable while treating their workers fairly and dealing fairly with unions, they should go out of business. For every company that fails and claims it’s the fault of unions or regulations, there’s another that succeeds under the same conditions. But who cares? If businesses in a sector really can’t be run properly then the government should take over the sector. People and governments are necessary. Corporations and markets are not.
wow just wow @ finian1
I don't know how Anderson Silva can even walk around right now with all the nuthuggers out there. Can't wait til Chael fucks him up in their next fight. Hopefully he goes over and slaps ed "open mouth" soares afterwards as well.
Being wrong?
The North remembers...
Would you like Freys with that?
by iiowyn on Sep 1, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
likely both
I don't know how Anderson Silva can even walk around right now with all the nuthuggers out there. Can't wait til Chael fucks him up in their next fight. Hopefully he goes over and slaps ed "open mouth" soares afterwards as well.
by MichaelD8 on Sep 1, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This sounds a lot like negotiating with terrorists
Now I don’t want to say that Culinary Workers Union, Local 226 are terrorists but they are acting like a bunch of terrorists.
Follow me on twitter @MattRoth512
by Matthew Roth on Sep 1, 2011 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Completely agreed. This is just the mode of the union now. They’re unnecessary.
the artist formerly known as amadeus
'I don't make my living by making my living. My time is so important that I can't compromise my taste- or my idea of what's right- simply to match someone else's view of what's a good, calculated move"- Robert Plant
contributing writer at www.HeadkickLegend.com and www.PatsPulpit.com
by Austin Martin on Sep 1, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
And 6 year olds should be back in the factory
and if a worker is dumb enough to get hurt on the job, screw ‘em. No pay, no paying for medical care and if they miss more than a day or two, fire ’em. That’s the way you operate without unions!
"Complacency is your demise." - Kerry King
Or you have companies competing for skilled employees like most non unionized industries.
The North remembers...
Would you like Freys with that?
by iiowyn on Sep 1, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are 2 sides to that coin
Under union rule, an incompetent moron will get to keep his/her job.
I need to add a disclaimer that I’m not trying to be pro- or anti-union here but you need to look at it from both sides.
I’ve personally experienced situations where employee incompetence was completely overlooked due to union influence. We’re talking something that cost the company big bucks.
Great for the employee….not so great for the rest of us (non-union guys) who would have loved to have his job. He paid his dues, so he stays employed.
No sir, I don't like it.
this
I start off working in a union, but wanted more time at home so I switched to a local job( non union) and in three years since I’ve seen bull shit that floors me. Recently a guy was sent home for cutting his hand. A totally forgivable mistake, only he was suspend two weeks no pay. And put on a 2 year probation were he can be terminated with out warning.
by Elstriko on Sep 2, 2011 1:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They're more power hungry and greedy
Than the “power hungry and greedy” bosses they like to push around.
Anderson Silva is, and forever will be the greatest of all time.
Where can I buy my Cerrone cowboy hat?
yea!!!
How dare workers stand up to a giant. Who do they think they are?
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Sep 1, 2011 5:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Probably some of the fighters feel the same way about and the UFC and their contracts.
certified warlord
Oddly enough, despite not liking everything about their job
They also feel that signing them is worth doing the work. But it’s totally unfair!
Not afraid to nitpick
The Culinary Union is full of some tough SOBs
If you go against them, they’ll beat you into custard….
Custard.
is this thing on?
The MMA Garage
Check out this site for discount MMA gear.
by Discman2 on Sep 1, 2011 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
yeah, so zuffa's contracts are less than ideal for the athlete...
but what does that have to do with a bunch of cooks? anyone? bueller? bueller?
The union wants money
The union gets money
Anderson Silva is, and forever will be the greatest of all time.
Where can I buy my Cerrone cowboy hat?
I guess you missed this part.
White believes it is because his partners at Zuffa (the company that owns the UFC), Frank and Lorenzo Fertitta, are also involved in the casino business. Their company, Station Casinos, is one of the largest non-union casino companies in the United States.
This is where the rubber meets the road. The Culinary Union has been trying for years to unionize Station Casinos, but thus far, has been thwarted. This is why White believes they are using their vast resources – the Culinary Union boasts approximately 60,000 members – to stop the Fertittas from bringing their mixed martial arts business to New York.
They want Station Casinos to give in to unionization. Their leverage to force them to is to hurt the UFC.
I think you missed the point.
How can a culinary union complain about a company’s treatment of athletes? For example, if I’m a member of the autoworkers union what standing do I have to ask for an investigation of a sanitation company’s treatment of their workers?
I doubt they give two shits about the athletes. Their primary concern is to get Station Casinos legalized. The fact that they’re attacking them from Las Vegas as well shows a desire to grab power there. It’s not about whether the culinary union has the standing to do so, it’s about whether they have the political power and will to do so. This particular union is very strong, and it’s not unreasonable for them to have friends in powerful places. It’s how politics works: you want something, you can’t get it, then you hit your enemy somewhere else if you have the ability to do it.
interesting
I thought the FTC investigation was more about barrier to entry for merch and other promotions not so much fighter contracts. Could the FTC expand what its looking into.
It’s a simple comparison but if Zuffa gets investigated by the FTC for contracts and other things why hasn’t the WWE been? They are basically the same thing in there given markets.
I’m generally a pro union guy but if this F’s with my MMA consumption and how much of it I get screw those guys.
Twitter @MaZZM
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if this F’s with my MMA consumption and how much of it I get screw those guys.
lol. I guess when it comes right down to it, I’d fall under this category also. I need my UFC!
Jimmy Hoffa is behind all this, the man is like the Elvis or 2pac of union heads.
by malo on Sep 1, 2011 2:46 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The Culinary Union hasn't been a problem regarding NY MMA for a couple of years now
The problem in New York is a bunch of old fossils that make part of the assembly who are so set in their own ways they’ll turn something down if it doesn’t suit their personal tastes, regardless of what the people they’re supposed to represent want.
NY MMA is not a union issue in 2011.
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With that out of the way
The abc’s quoted in this article are actually very valid concerns and of interest, especially to help fighters get better deals. Not even WWE is as strict regarding merchandising and likeness rights where all workers get some form of royalty for their image in merchandise including DVD and videogame releases they’re featured in, even if they’re bottom of the rung.
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The UFC has every right to present to its fighters any contract it sees fit. Take it or leave it. Many of the fighters once proved themselves can renegotiate their contracts and get much more. This is the free market not some communist society. The risk of growing the UFC was on the investors, no fighter came to them and said " Let me take a pay cut to help you" when there were $40M in debt. Now after all the hurdles to come and say you owe us this and that is just wrong.
How can UFC ever justify having a lifetime likeness right of a fighter?
That is someone’s identity we’re talking about here. If that fighter gets cut he can no longer use his likeness even though UFC want nothing more to do with him? That makes no sense.
The champions clause today also makes no sense and I’d like to see it contested in court on whether any contract can legally be indefinitely renewed. This is the real world, not some Faustian fable.
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It will be contested in court if it is ever used. Nobody wants to see that happen, so negotiations are done way before it would become an issue.
The North remembers...
Would you like Freys with that?
That's how it's worked so far.
I think a tipping point is inevitable.
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It is similiar
To the music industry. Prince had to give up his name and call himeself the Sign after WB wouldn’t release him from his contract. As for legality I’m sure the UFC have very sharp lawers that are probably smarter than you or me I’m sure they are covered.
To be fair
Assuming the published championship clause I looked over is the one in actual contracts, it doesn’t indefinitely renew the contract. Just one fight within a year of the contract’s expiration.
Which is fine
Often the issues with UFC and criticism lobbed at them could be avoided if they weren’t so smoke and mirrors all the time. A little clarity can go a long way for better public perception. I could even understand and appreciate a 3 fight extension if you became champion on your last fight.
I don’t have any problems with the exclusive negotiation period after a contract is up though. There’s nothing wrong with a first refusal option.
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That's probably true
Transparency usually tends to lead to fewer misunderstandings. The talk of the championship clause extending a contract forever comes from a strange interpretation of the clause saying that the parameters of the contract apply to the extension. The UFC laying out what the clause actually means would end the criticism.
Btw, I remembered the reports I had read incorrectly. It is one year or three (not one, as I had stated) fights, whichever comes sooner. I thought three fights was what separated the UFC’s clause from Bellator’s. But Bellator’s biggest difference is the extra six months and that it automatically triggers any time the fighter wins a belt or wins a tournament, or becomes a runner-up. So, my apologies for the mistake.
The merchandising and likeness rights are complete BS.
That part of the contracts is absolutely terrible.
The Champion's Clause is in their argument?
It’s basically a standard 1 year non-compete clause, and it creates value for everyone long term. The UFC is more willing/able to promote the “champion”, which makes the champion more popular, which makes the champion more valuable. See the promotion of Shields vs. Henderson for what happens without champions clauses.
Hell if anything, they could arguably do 6 month non-competes with every fighter if they wanted to really push the envelope, although post-independent SF that might not fly.
Not afraid to nitpick
I don't believe a non compete clause for 6 months would work these days.
15 years ago in certain right to work states before the company was had multiple globally based offices and influential, then perhaps.
I don't know how Anderson Silva can even walk around right now with all the nuthuggers out there. Can't wait til Chael fucks him up in their next fight. Hopefully he goes over and slaps ed "open mouth" soares afterwards as well.
I work in a law firm and put non-compete clauses in contracts all the time. Some of them up to five years depending on the industry.
6 months is nothing and I don’t see any reason why such a short non-compete clause would be a problem if it’s disclosed from the beginning.
by Brandon Starr on Sep 1, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
what state?
I’m not a lawyer but we had them back in the day in my profession and to a man, every lawyer we talked to said they would never stand up in court. I am in Illinois and I’m guessing the situation was different, and possibly unique so maybe that is why.
I don't know how Anderson Silva can even walk around right now with all the nuthuggers out there. Can't wait til Chael fucks him up in their next fight. Hopefully he goes over and slaps ed "open mouth" soares afterwards as well.
Did you really just ask me what State? Look at my name!!!
jk… but seriously, Hawaii and Washington State.
Look at it like this. A tech guy wants to build a new phone company and doesn’t have funds to do so. He partners with someone who has the funds. What stops the guy who has money from watching closely how things operate and either a) leaving the guy with nothing and starting his own company, or b) using his new found knowledge to partner with someone else with a contract structured to give him more oversight and profit than the original deal? A non-compete clause. Non-compete clauses are known for failing in Court. However, that is only because of the term. There is nothing inherently excludable in a non-compete clause. The terms are the only question based on the parties ability to make a living in the future. If you have a 6 month non-compete, signed by both parties, and then one party tries to invalidate it, say, 3 months in…. I have never met a Judge that wouldn’t make that person stick to the last three months. Now, let’s say its a 6 year, and two years in the guy is broke and can hardly provide for his family and has been offered an entry level job in the same industry that would be considered “competition”. It’s likely the judge would not enforce the non-compete clause.
by Brandon Starr on Sep 2, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know why people hold this against CWU. The problems in New York suck, but seriously, Zuffa is just prone to making enemies. I assume that the head of the CWU is some dude exactly like Dana, trying to crush his enemies. If Station Casinos gave in and unionized at this point I’d be ideologically pleased but totally disappointed in the UFC for rolling over.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
The casinos don’t want to unionize because then they will have to pony up even more cash for their employees. Unions vs. Casinos, it is kind of funny you have two entities known for muscling around their competition butting heads against each other for a change. Poetic justice.
"I think he doesn't accept punches very well. I don't know why." - JDS speaking of Brock Lesnar
The Champion’s Clause is the only thing that has a meaningful chance of being a problem for the FTC, imo. It’s the only thing that seems like it could truly fall under anti-competitive practices. A legal precedent here might actually have the opposite of the intended effect however, as it might mean that all of Bellator’s Champions could become free agents and be snatched up the UFC. They could lose Eddie Alvarez, Joe Warren, and Hector Lombard in one fell swoop. The UFC might have to make sure that all their champions are paid well to ensure their loyalty (see Dominick Cruz only making $20k + $20k a fight right now), and they may ask for longer and more lucrative contracts for some guys they feel might end up being Champion, but that’s not really a bad thing in my opinion.
Alternately, since the Culinary Union doesn’t seem like an aggrieved party here, the FTC might just ignore this.
Again
Champions clauses are simply non-competes and are about as standard a business practice as it gets. The fact that they are only 1 year means it would probably be a frivolous lawsuit to even challenge that individually.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on Sep 1, 2011 6:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
in canada a non-compete without any geographic limitation might not stand up, even if it was only one year. especially in the context of an employment agreement rather than the sale of a business.
Nice Post
Absolutely True—same in Arizona and California as well.
In fact, in California, non-competes are generally uneforceable altogether absent a sale of business situation.
To say the Champion’s Clause is a typical non-compete is nonsense. No term? Perpetually renewed? Never a free agent? FAR from anything typical.
It’s a non-compete without limitations on time or location. When Brock Lesnar counter-sued the WWE when they tried to enforce a 10-year non-compete clause on him (that extended to both wrestling and MMA in fact) that was a condition of his trying out for the NFL (before he failed to make the Minnesota Vikings and went to New Japan Wrestling), the WWE ended up settling out of court and giving him everything he wanted just so he wouldn’t set a legal precedent.
Again, I don’t know that that will affect the UFC negatively as long as they control the great bulk of the top talent, can outbid every other promotion for said top talent, and keep their champions happy or at least make sure that they’re happy when it comes time for contract renewal.
I can’t stand Union’s when they get involved in business that doesn’t involve them. Plus, if Station Casino’s can run their business with non-union workers, then more power to them. If the workers have it that bad at Station Casino, then they can all walk off the job and strike, that is how these things work.
Instead Zuffa now has to waste money, time and resources to fight some bullshit investigation, what a waste of resources.
Your insane
Unions made this country what it is today and not what mexico or china are.
i have been saying this was coming for a while now
the ufc is really run on an emotional level sometimes and they are going to get into trouble. all those pictures of dana dancing around with the tombstones of his competitors might come back to haunt him after all.
this is asisine.
unions are good when they stand up for the working man/woman, but shit like this makes all unions look bad. strong-arming a fight league because of an unrelated casino practice? that’s just petty.
by Victor Rodriguez on Sep 1, 2011 5:48 PM EDT reply actions
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