Bas Rutten and Dave Meltzer Comment on UFC Vs. Golden Glory Situation
Strikeforce, which has shared owners with the UFC since March of this year, cut heavyweight champion Alistair Overeem at the end of July when a contract dispute got ugly. They then cut several more fighters managed by Golden Glory, Overeem's management team, last week as the dispute got uglier.
Former UFC heavyweight champ and MMA legend Bas Rutten commented on the situation via Twitter. He's a countryman of Golden Glory chief Bas Boon and star Alistair Overeem and maybe it shows:
First thing we heard was: "Dana said that it was the problem from GG management, that they don't want the checks directly to go to the fighters". But then there is suddenly a picture from Marloes Coenen's check on the Internet with her name on it, a check that she cashed herself.
Some will ask, "Why does GG do business like this?" Well, it's for their own protection of course, but it probably started because some checks from Japan started to bounce from some organizations. And if they didn't bounce, the fighters would be able to get them cashed 6 or 8 weeks later. Since fighters want their money right away, and GG loves their fighters, they said "No problem, we pay the fighters from our OWN money, pay their trainers and sparring partners, and then when the money comes in, we simply deduct everything from the check that is paid, this way everybody get's paid".
I know for a fact, 100% true, that they STILL need to get money from some organizations. The fighters got paid, but GG didn't because they paid the fighters out of their own money. And some people say that they are crooks? Please explain this to me, who else, what management, give me one name, does this?
...So we know now why GG does this. And of course when GG heard that the UFC wanted to pay their fighters directly, and that they otherwise didn't want to do business, GG right away said "OK, no problem". And that's why you saw that check from Marloes Coenen popping up.
So what is the real reason then that they let the fighters go?\
...
The truth is, I don't exactly know, but what I DO know is that Alistair Overeem was in a beautiful spot. When he would win the tournament, his contract would be over and that would put him in a really good spot.
...
You heard from Alistair that he went into the Werdum fight with an injury, and that Scott Coker knew this and told Alistair he HAD to fight, and if he would do that for him, he would give him time to "heal up" after the Werdum fight. "No worries, late fall is gonna be the finals", is what was said to Alistair, his trainer and managementNow, they suddenly changed the date, I believe it was because it fell on the same day as another event, but whatever the reason was (it doesn't really matter), Alistair was promised late fall, NOT early September.
...
Now, the Big Foot fight, is probably the most important fight in his career, you don't think that he wants to be without injuries before he fights a guy like that?Especially after fighting with an injury and not able to perform as usual. (he could have lost the fight against Werdum because of it).
...
"They don't like the management from GG", is what I have been tweeted by MANY fans, and you know what? It really starts to look like this now.But, then some of you will say, "Kharitanov is still there, they didn't fire him and he is also GG". Yes, that's true, but that could be true because otherwise everybody would have known 100% that it's a "powerplay", (that's what they call it on the internet).
...
But, whatever the reasons are, the fans lose in this situation. Because the chances that Alistair is going to fight in the UFC now, are slim, and I don't know about you, but I would have loved to see Alistair versus Jr Dos Santos, two top strikers in an MMA match, hell yeah!So let's hope it get's fixed!
Dave Meltzer also had some analysis of the situation in the latest Wrestling Observer (subscription required):
Details of exactly what happened are not clear, but Bas Boon at Golden Glory apparently figured that Alistair Overeem had a lot of leverage as Strikeforce heavyweight champion and the biggest star left and favorite to win the Grand Prix tournament and was making demands when it came to negotiations for a new deal. Those included wanting a PPV percentage and to be moved to the UFC side.
...
Problems between the two sides started when Overeem's management, Bas Boon and Golden Glory, and Overeem himself would not agree for him to fight on 9/10 against Antonio "Bigfoot" Silva in the semifinals of the tournament. Overeem had said that he did not have time for a complete training camp after taking time off after his win over Fabricio Werdum, to heal the broken toe. He agreed to the fight but asked that it be delayed a few weeks.Showtime, which broadcasts all Strikeforce events, did not have an open date for October, between their own commitments to boxing, three Saturday's where UFC already had shows booked and not wanting to run the tournament semifinals against a potential World Series game.
But others have said Overeem's management were negotiating involving that date if certain unnamed demands were met, which led to Zuffa officials being upset when Overeem went public with the story in an interview with Ariel Helwani, blaming his not wanting to fight on that date due to his injury. Overeem at the time only mentioned a broken toe. Over this past weekend, Overeem put on the Internet an X-ray report showing the rib fracture. Still, those in Zuffa when talking about how the negotiations were going down, said the injury talk was disingenuous because they were making demands and were agreeable of him to fight if the demands were met. Plus, Overeem was booked by Golden Glory as the headliner on their own show in October in Moscow, Russia.
Overeem (35-11, 1 no contest) had one fight remaining on his contract. Had he taken the fight and beaten Silva, it would have given him a lot more leverage in negotiating a new deal since it would make the tournament look bad if someone worked his way into the finals and was champion was taken out over a financial dispute. But even then Zuffa would not have agreed to what they believed was a bad financial deal.
So what we've got is a classic failure to communicate. Golden Glory thought they had more leverage than they did and Lorenzo Fertitta, the man running Strikeforce now, didn't want to put up with their crap.
It's too bad as Zuffa's promise to fans that their acquisition of Strikeforce would mean fans would get to see ALL the fights they were dreaming of betweeen the world's very best is now shown to be an empty one.
Here's hoping they can work it out. From here it looks like Zuffa can't work with the best fight camps in Russia and Holland and if they can't do that, they aren't really bringing fans ALL the best fighters in the world.
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Overreem lost a lot of leverage by not dominating Werdum
Had he gone out there and destroyed “The man that submitted Fedor”, this whole affair could have been different. UFC pundits will always pull up the “Well JDS destroyed Werdum, if Over had to decision him, maybe he’s not that good.”
The rest of the GG stable has no clout in a Zuffa owned Strikeforce. They’ve said time and time again that WMMA is too shallow.
So basically Overreem lost leverage by fighting injured against Werdum and stopping him.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 9, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
did you mean...
So basically Overreem lost leverage by fighting injured against Werdum and not stopping him.
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be." - Kahlil Gibran
by merryprankster on Aug 9, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
kind of hard to stop a guy that keeps falling on his ass with no backup strategy.
by Victor Rodriguez on Aug 9, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah and people still get angry about Anderson Silva’s performance against Thales Leites. They’re trying to wonder why he didn’t finish Leites.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 10, 2011 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Good looking.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 10, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I Think...
Zuffa is trying to peel these fighters away from their manager/training camps…
I can understand both sides pov somewhat but
i don’t know how they expected to get Overeem PPV cuts and a move to the UFC. He isn’t proven to be a real big draw on PPV and hasn’t even been shown to the casual UFC can (by casual i mean SUPER CASUAL). GG thought they had the perfect hand and Forza closed the table.
still kind of bummed this all went down but thats business
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But since when is that a reason to cut somebody?
Hendo’s negotiations with Zuffa lasted much longer than the week they gave GG/Alistair. Dave Meltzer’s take on the situation still seems too vague regarding Zuffa’s actual stance on the situation. Bas Rutten’s account, however seems to clearly illustrate GG’s stance. If what he says is true about GG accepting Zuffa’s “fighter payout” demands (one of the fanposts shows his entire tweet), as Coenan’s check seems to indicate,then his testimony is that much more damaging to Zuffa’s version of events.
by Grease S. Pieces on Aug 9, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if Allistair had fought more mma in the last few years for strikeforce if he would have been given more of a break or if they just decided to wash their hands of the guy and his contract at this point and start fresh if he wants in.
maybe so.
but as Bas mentions at the end of his entry, he didn’t have a contract with Strikeforce until the Showtime deal happened. that and the lack of a credible heavyweight division were why he didn’t fight more during that time. i’m just not sure why he couldn’t have a match or two in Japan during that time prior to his injury.
by Victor Rodriguez on Aug 9, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Overeem will fight in the UFC by 2012, the money is too good
Money talks, the UFC has it. Overeem wants it. They’ll setup some warm-up fight like Overeem / Kongo then he’ll get a marketable fight or title fight.
would be my guess too.
It’s just too strange how “nice” White behaves during such a fiasco and considering the stuff that was said about the UFC from GG.
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
Agreed
Dana White has hissy fits over the most insignifcant of issues. That he hasn’t threated to burn Golden Glory down and salt the earth says alot.
White wants Overeem in the UFC. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be holding his tongue.
Dana doesn’t run Strikeforce. get over it.
by Victor Rodriguez on Aug 9, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't mean he wouldn't explode over the Overeem situation normaly...
Hint: Paul Daley. Strikeforce fighter.
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
he is impulsive, but you don't know that.
Coker and Lorenzo run Strikeforce. not Dana.
sure, he’s been a hothead sometimes, but we’re not talking about a guy who punched his opponent after the bell. bad example, homie.
by Victor Rodriguez on Aug 9, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
You can repeat it over and over again, but White has a certain track record for outbursts.
I’m not saying it is the case, but I just don’t belive he’s so quiet only because he doesn’t run Strikeforce either. Just look how he blew up against Frank Shamrock. There’s a good posibility that he’s keeping quiet because there’s more than meets the eye…. Victor. :-)
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
You see, the point is that White hasn't stated much.
And what GG stated makes White’s arguments look bad. Sure, there’s a possibility that Overeem will have to deal with cans in Japan and other leagues for the rest of his life. But stuff like the posted check of Coenen makes White look pretty bad and makes his reasons for firing the fighters look bad – no matter what the check proves at all. I just find it hard to belive he’s keeping quiet because he doesn’t deal with Strikeforce.
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
dude… i agree that he’s prone to decisions that are harsh, but Daley and Shamrock do not apply as examples as to what happened here with Golden Glory. nor is the decision to cut all of their fighters exclusive to Dana, Frank and Lorenzo Fertitta had to have a say in this as well. my main original point was that Strikeforce is not run by Dana. there is no conclusive evidence aginst that. as far as him being quiet, you can bet he’ll be more vocal later on about it.
by Victor Rodriguez on Aug 9, 2011 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Well there is no comparable situation but the one with AKA. Coenen just posted her check after all the White interviews and basicaly called him a liar without using that word. And after all the negotations still saying that he’d love to have Overeem in the UFC, that’s just very strange to me.
But we’re all kinda guessing. Meltzer doesn’t even clarify his “sources”. So maybe the situation will be forever unclear.
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
It’s too bad as Zuffa’s promise to fans that their acquisition of Strikeforce would mean fans would get to see ALL the fights they were dreaming of betweeen the world’s very best is now shown to be an empty one.
Yeah, this. When the dust clears, the upside of the Strikeforce deal for MMA fans will probably be reduced to adding 3-4 good fighters (Diaz, Gil, Jacare, Hendo) to the UFC roster. The downside will be the loss of a promotion that put on a dozen good shows a year on an inexpensive premium cable channel.
Awesome.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Aug 9, 2011 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
And I wonder if Jacare even goes since he is a prime attraction at events like the ADCC and two of the top guys in the MW division (Maia and Silva) he said he would never fight.
by memitim on Aug 9, 2011 3:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He said he wouldn’t fight Maia either? You recall when or where?
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 9, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, it might be Maia who said that. I have to find it, I believe it was in a GracieMag article.
by memitim on Aug 9, 2011 3:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If so that’s disappointing. Maia has been looking slick on the feet and Jacare has some skills there as well.
by discoandherpes on Aug 9, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
they are both team Brasa.
It makes sense.
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by the-gentle-way on Aug 9, 2011 7:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I just don't know how much longer
Strikeforce would have been able to last with the way they were running things. I think it’s better in the long run and I think ProElite could step up to be a good number 2 org. Maybe Bellator but I doubt it.
"What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease."
see, I thought they were on a roll and getting better
I love the matchups that Rich Chou was putting together, and I thought they put on consistently excellent cards — even at the Challengers level. I don’t know what their financial future looked like, but I wish they could have kept it rolling.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Aug 9, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought they were too
But, at the same time, I could see the writing on the wall and how the fighters were going to start running things if they hadn’t started already. Overeem would have held them hostage and I wouldn’t have blamed him if he did.
"What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease."
They were making money
Which is huge in the MMA game.
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WHAT!? there actually two-sides to this story
It really doesn’t matter why it happened what matters is what happens next.Will overeem and GG work it out with ufc or will overeem continue to kick the lid off of cans
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 2:28 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
He'll fight in MMA once a year
And folks will be saying how great he is and how he’d kill JDS/Cain.
"What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease."
And whereas the purchase of Strikeforce
enabled Zuffa to give us the answer to that, they chose to ignore the question…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 9, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If GG was really over leveraging AO
can you blame them for turning it down.
From Bas, to Meltzer, to Breen, everyone is saying that GG overplayed their hand. You can’t put all the balme on Zuffa for passing up.
You know what, chris81203? You confuse and infuriate me. - James Brady (Ninjames)
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
I agree, as I have said here and elsewhere – in a business sense both sides acted in their own best interest, no one is really at fault here, it just didn’t work out.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 9, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
gotcha
Sounded like you were putting it all on Zuffa, but thinking back I remember you being much more even handed. My bad.
You know what, chris81203? You confuse and infuriate me. - James Brady (Ninjames)
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
I try to be, both sides are responsible for how it ended up, although it sound somewhat like Overeem may have broken radio silence as a tactic to getting his way.
My main fault with Zuffa and/or Dana was the way they spun/presented it, but on further reflection that may have been simply a way to put the onus on the other side without seeming to blame Overeem specifically.
All in all I think he still ends up in the UFC at some point in the next year.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 9, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
He really should end up in the UFC
And totally agree with you about Dana. There was no reason for him to “spin” it like he did. The story he came out with made less sense ind made him more of the villain than the real story.
You know what, chris81203? You confuse and infuriate me. - James Brady (Ninjames)
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
Dana already said he is still amenable to Overeem coming to the UFC...
This makes it easier to get Overeem straight into the UFC while also giving the UFC more leverage in negotiations. It’s clear win for Zuffa if Overeem does sign, but I imagine he’ll be decently compensated.
White should bring back Coenen and Olav
Kind of ridiculous to lump in with Overeem.
Something tells me this situation is probably less intractable than the UFC/M-1 Global negotiations but probably slightly more than the either the BJ Penn or Randy Couture contract snags.
Overeem, unlike Fedor, is his own man. He’s smart, talented, and knows his worth And I am sure he also understands that if he wants to be an elite mixed martial artists rather than JUST an elite K-1 guy, the UFC is the only game in town.
From a promotional standpoint, AO would be an easier sell than JDS. I think one or two high-profile matches in the UFC would be all that’s required. He’d do well on TUF, too. I’d love to see maybe a Mir/Overeem season.
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In order for
Overeem to fight in the UFC, him and management need to understand their place dealing with Zuffa.. They are not dealing with SF and though Overeem has got leveraging power its not even close as he was dealing with Japan or SF. Being a company man is a hard transition but it pays off big if you play the cards right.
“From here it looks like Zuffa can’t work with the best fight camps in Russia and Holland and if they can’t do that, they aren’t really bringing fans ALL the best fighters in the world.”
Ridiculous statement, considering Fedor is on a 3-fight losing streak, and Overeem has exactly ONE win (a fight nobody ever wants to see again) over a top 10 opponent.
If you believe otherwise, you are wrong.
by Alpha & Omega on Aug 9, 2011 3:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ridiculous statement, considering Fedor is on a 3-fight losing streak, and Overeem has exactly ONE win (a fight nobody ever wants to see again) over a top 10 opponent.
If you believe otherwise, you are wrong.
Considering that you are factually wrong, I’m not sure what that makes we who know better, but Overeem has also wrecked then #8 Rogers for a ‘W’ as well as completely dominated also then #8 Cro Cop in what became an NC.
Only Fedor has faced more and Lesnar as many top-10 guys at HW as Overeem over the last 3 years (going 3-3 and 2-1 respectively), and Overeem in 9-0-1 in MMA in that same span as well as his K-1 wins…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 9, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Fedor is history
and Overeem is today.
I’m talking about the future. M-1 and Golden Glory are pipelines to 2 countries that have historically produced huge amounts of combat sports talent (Rob Kamen, Alexander Karelin, Peter Aerts, Ernesto Hoost, the Kitschko brothers, Igor Vovchanchyn, Oleg Taktarov, Bas Rutten, etc etc etc).
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Does M-1 rep anyone..
who fights outside of M-1 Global?
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by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 9, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Overeem seems like one of the savviest guys in MMA, and I think he looked at this as a risk worth taking if he couldn’t get the deal he wanted.
Overeem knows that fighting Bigfoot at significantly less than 100% is a very risky play (and it is a risky fight even at 100%), particularly as your last fight on a contract.
Conversely, allowing Overeem to fight Bigfoot as his last fight is a risky move for Zuffa as well, and one they were wisely unwilling to take.
Both sides know that HW is also tissue thin, and Cain’s recovery is still TBD, not to mention neither he nor JDS seem to have the marketable intangibles needed.
If Zuffa isn’t offering PPV points, Overeem could likely make just as much annually fighting outside of the UFC – and with far more say over opponents, rules and dates and thus with far less risk – and both sides certainly know this as well.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 9, 2011 3:27 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Excellent points
I’m almost 100% sure Overeem is still coming and that GG will still represent him.
I’m certain negotiations are going on still. If Dana was scorned we’d all now. Like someone else said, Dana hasn’t threatened to burn GG to the ground.
“YOU STUPID DUTCH FUCK! YOU FUCKED UP! YOU KNOW YOU DID! YOU THOUGHT YOU COULD FUCK ME? FUCK YOU!”
He actually said that he’d love to sign Alistair as soon as GG is willing to strike a legit deal. He never talks like that about people he’s pissed at.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
It’s too bad as Zuffa’s promise to fans that their acquisition of Strikeforce would mean fans would get to see ALL the fights they were dreaming of betweeen the world’s very best is now shown to be an empty one.
I see where you’re coming from, but it takes two to tango. Just because they have ability to keep all these fighters under contract, doesn’t mean they should make shitty deals with them, just because the fans wanna sit certain matchups.
The UFC has to much leverage
DW and the UFC constantly try to strong arm fighters to fight for pennies until they have a significant. I understand this may be good business practice but they tend to butt heads with fighters who actually smart and negotiate with them instead of accepting the crumbs that are typically thrown their way.
All your doing is spewing garbage with no sense of order or articulation whatsoever. - SimplePsych
by frosty31 on Aug 9, 2011 3:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
No,
The UFC has just the right amount of leverage to make sure that fighters won’t try to strongarm and dictate times and salaries like Fedor and Overeem did to SF.
It's not dictating.
It’s negotiating. Both sides exercise whatever leverage they have.
by Grease S. Pieces on Aug 9, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
This is getting ridiculous
It’s about time fighters started a fighters union to look after the fighters, because the UFC gets rid of fighters with current contracts for any reason he likes, without repercussions. They really need and deserve the protection it could provide.
Then they should do it.
The fact that the union doesn’t form should show that zuffa isn’t treating all the fighters that badly.
No it doesn't
It simply shows that they take very good care of the top fighters – the only ones with the ability to push a union formation through – knowing that everyone else will fall in line. Or be gone.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 9, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
"He likes" is appropriate.
Given that Dana White is the UFC.
Retaliation is related to nature and instinct, not to law. Law, by definition, cannot obey the same rules as nature. - Albert Camus
The sad reality is that the #3 ish HW can make more money fighting K-1 and other tourneys than he can fighting in an exclusive contract witha Zuffa owned SF. It’s interesting to me that Zuffa didn’t even offer any kind of deal in the UFC. They want him to stay in SF for now..or do they?
So, why doesn’t the Zuffa marketing machine feel that they can make a grip off of AO? Heaveyweights sell PPVs do they not? It seems to me that Zuffa feels like they cant or just dont want to bring him over to big leagues just yet. Pulitzer prize awaits the journalist who can figure out why no offer to fight in the UFC has been made (both parties stipulate no offer to fight in the UFC was made). The card on sat highlights the need for quality main and co mainevents. It’s nonsense to me that Zuffa wouldn’t recover the extra 200K per fight they would pay him compared to the avg HW fighter on the roster. Any fight he is invloved in is a big and marketable fight.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 9, 2011 4:13 PM EDT reply actions
This is actually a huge misconception. You wanna know what Velasquez did in his non-Lesnar headlining fight against Big Nog? 240k. That’s less than Edgar/Maynard 2 did.You wanna know what JDS/Carwin did? 335k. That’s less than the “horiffic numbers” that Cruz/Faber did.
There have been 2 HW’s that have sold well on PPV. Lesnar and Couture. You take them out of the equation and the HW PPV’s probably average around 300k.
I understand he’s not going to generate 500k buys on his own, but he does have international credentials that Cain, Carwin , and JDS do not have. Plus he has the look and speaks pretty well. The question is why doesn’t the UFC marketing machine feel that they can’t develop this guy into a huge draw. You can’t expect another Lesnar to just show up. AO presents the best(unsigned) possible opporitunity for Zuffa to develop as a star at this point. Besides a large Pro wrestling fanbase, what is AO lacking?
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 9, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not what AO is lacking. It's what the UFC is lacking.
I know Zuffa deserves the overwhelming majority of the credit for making MMA as popular as it is today, mainly due to their varied marketing ploys. There’s a misconception, however, that they are marketing their stars when really, they’re mostly marketing their brand. The two biggest stars in recent history have been two fighters who piggie-backed a large fanbase to the sport with them. Those fighters are Brock Lesnar and Kimbo Slice. Hershel Walker had a similar, although smaller effect with Strikeforce. With all the advertising budget and media access at their disposal, they STILL haven’t figured out how to create a bigger buzz than Kimbo Slice was able to create for himself with a few youtube videos. I think the UFC knows that AO’s potential to be a star will not be maximized. Fighting skill is not what makes the biggest stars but appears to be whatever image and persona the fighters can create for themselves (or be created for them) outside of the cage. Overeem’s REEM documentary, as well as all his other means of self-promotion, are effective, but they reach too small of an audience at this point.
by Grease S. Pieces on Aug 9, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a misconception?
I thought this was common knowledge. I understand why they want to market their brand first but at the same time it’s going to hurt them as well. They need to find a way to make superstars. To make some fighters exciting to the casual fans. I kind of think we are in a transition period. Maybe Jones, and MacDonald, and Cruz, and these other young guys will become superstars. But I just don’t see it happening for quite a while.
"What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease."
Your point is well taken regarding marketing their own brand but if they can pay Cro Cop 2-300K/fight I dont see why they wouldn’t see the same value with Reem. I know they can’t pay him that much to be on a SF show because SF doesn’t generate much revenue . I’m just surprised there is such little interest by Zuffa( given the current state of affairs at HW) to get him in the UFC ASAP. Makes me think that there is more going on than meets the eye.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 9, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I can easily see why the UFC wouldn't want to give Overeem a PPV%
If that was one of the first demands GG made, I definitely understand why no other offers were made.
Heavyweights do tend to draw PPV’s, but AO is a completely unproven draw. There’s no reason to give him a percentage for his first fight on PPV.
You know what, chris81203? You confuse and infuriate me. - James Brady (Ninjames)
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
Sure he doesn’t warrant a % right now but the Zuffa didn’t offer him ANYTHING in the UFC. Negotiations are all about back and forth but you cant go back and forth when there is nothing on the table.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 9, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Where has it been said definitively that a spot on the UFC roster wasn't offered?
You know what, chris81203? You confuse and infuriate me. - James Brady (Ninjames)
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
AO said it in his interview on Inside MMA. I cant find anything were Dana specificlly says it right now but all of his responses indicate he was just offering an deal to continue with SF.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 9, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
So GG was asking extra money for an injured Overeem to fight? Geez., first time I heard something like that. Oh, wait. They pulled the same stunt with a K-1 fight in Amsterdam where Gokhan Saki was supposed to fight. First he couldn’t fight because of an injury – a mainevent fight – and then suddenly he could fight, if It’s Showtime would cough up some more money.
And talking about Bas Boon and Bas Rutten being countrymen, they’re closer then that. Rutten used to train under Cor Hemmers who is one of the founding members of GG and a busnisspartner of Bas Boon. Guess who’s side Rutten is going to pick in this situation. Also keep in mind that Rutten gets to do the job of ring announcer/commentator for the Ultimate Glory events so the relation is even tighter.
But I am problably seeing things that aren’t there.
Well, that's what qualifies him to speak as an insider.
by Grease S. Pieces on Aug 9, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
It doens’t make him an ‘insider’. Bas problably has his own interests linked to those of GG or he’s to good a friend to ask the though questions. I don’t hold it against him, it just makes me value his comments in a different way.
by basvanderwolk on Aug 10, 2011 6:05 AM EDT up reply actions
All the unknowns aside....
I think that what we can take from this is that you should never put on a tournament without having every fighter in the tournament under contract past the end of the tournament.
Contract negotiations cause friction. In this case it looks like the friction caused might be enough to keep Overeem out of the UFC, which is a shame, no matter where you think he is in the world heavyweight picture.
I think as we are learning more and more about Strikeforce prior to the merger, it is becoming clear that the company wasn’t very well run in terms of long term vision. The fight cards always seemed to be hurriedly put together, fighters always seemed to be negotiating contracts and in general it seems like the talent of the fighters in the cage far outstretched the people running the show.
The Grand Prix could have been awesome. Now it’s basically a joke. Shame on Strikeforce!
a joke?
There are some awesome fights
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
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by the-gentle-way on Aug 9, 2011 5:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well let's see:
Scott Coker and company positioned the tournament as the greatest group of heavyweights ever assembled, all going to fight each other to determine the number one in the world.
-They matched their biggest name, Fedor, with a guy with big feet, but little name value. The big footed guy won, the big name guy lost.
-There was 126 days between the first and second round of fights and only 84 between the second and third round, giving those who fought in the first round a huge competitive advantage in terms of recovery and preparation time.
-Due to the length of the delay in scheduling, they were forced to ask their champion and most popular fighter to recover from injury and prepare for the most important fight of his career in less than 3 months, whilst his opponent had just under 7 months to prepare.
-They allowed said champion to fight in the tournament without a contract guaranteeing his participation in later rounds of the tournament and sure enough, when they presented him with the situation described above, he made substantial demands in return for his continued participation in the tournament.
-To make matters worse, during this time the company was purchased by the biggest MMA promotion company in the world, thus tying all things relating to the tournament directly to future participation in the UFC.
-Now we have one of the most popular and arguably one of the most talented fighters in the heavyweight world on the outside looking in at the tournament AND the most visible and highest caliber fighting organization in the world.
-Daniel Cormier, who isn’t even the best heavyweight in his own gym and whose biggest career win is over 40 year old Jeff Monson, is in position to win just two fights in order to become the best heavyweight in the world.
That’s a joke man.
by Luke Nelson on Aug 9, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
-Daniel Cormier, who isn’t even the best heavyweight in his own gym and whose biggest career win is over 40 year old Jeff Monson, is in position to win just two fights in order to become the best heavyweight in the world.
Cain is obviously higher ranked (at #1), but Cormier out-wrestles him…and yes, I am aware that it is not a wrestling match…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 9, 2011 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
That's cool...
..I’m not knocking his talent and from all accounts it seems like he has a really bright future, I’m just using that as an indicator that this tournament is far away from being able to determine the number one heavyweight in the world.
All too true, and it looks very different than it did when announced, that is for sure.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 9, 2011 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Does it?
The only person who left was Overeem. Fedor was legitimately eliminated from the tourney. I agree Overeem is a tough loss, but there’s one fighter missing now. Other than that, the tourney is still intact.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
This is true, to a point, but
in the beginning, everyone assumed Fedor just “got caught” and that the winner of the tourney, if Overeem, Fedor or Werdum, would have a valid argument for #1 HW.
Now, I can’t see the winner any higher than #4, and probably lower.
Still enjoyable, just not quite the same for me…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 10, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
"What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease."
Ridiculous
So Strikeforce established a 3-round tournament when the favorite to win the tournament didn’t even have 3 fights remaining on his deal. Whose bright idea was that?
Fedor was the favorite to win it and he did have enough fights on his contract. Having their champ compete in the tournament without enough fights on his contract was a stupid move, I agree.
www.mmalinker.com
by exsanguinator on Aug 10, 2011 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Overeem
The fact is Strikeforce fighters no long want to fight there.They’ll want UFC PPV deals,and fight bonus in there contracts.
by TERRENCEFROMSOUTHEAST on Aug 9, 2011 8:57 PM EDT reply actions
Overeem never proved his worth in HW mma...
whether he will in the future remains to be seen. This is for sure, Daniel Cormier won’t be winning the Strikeforce GP, he won’t even be getting past Bigfoot Silva.

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