Rashad Evans and the Case For #1 Light Heavyweight of the Past Four Years
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 9:00 AM EDT
in UFC Analysis
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The inherently subjective nature of rankings means there is no true "perfect method." I think that the USA Today / SB Nation Consensus Rankings are about as good as it gets based on the idea that they capture a snapshot of the consensus opinion of a group of people who (mostly) know what they're talking about. But there is another kind of ranking other than the standard mixture of results combined with the completely subjective idea of "who is better?"
The idea of "resume based rankings" is a popular one in certain college football circles. I'll turn to an old SB Nation college football blog Sunday Morning Quarterback (now Dr. Saturday at Yahoo! Sports) for their description:
A method that attempts to rank based strictly on the measurable: if each team had a resume for this season and this season only, and its name at the top was blacked out, how would the voter rank those resumes? Takes into account only games played to date this season - these are folks who always complain about polls that come out and distort reality before October.
Obviously, we don't have a "season" in mixed martial arts. But the idea of a distorted reality based on early polls is something we put up with. Once a fighter has been determined to be a top level talent, it can take years of results indicating otherwise before rankings adjust themselves.
So, what is the real point here? Yesterday, in the comments of my article about giving Rashad Evans his due, Bloody Elbow community member castleeb said:
If you were going purely by record, and not by titles, you could make a case for Rashad at 1 right now.
It got me to thinking, if we set the guidelines of resume based rankings at a four year window (as to not overrate early wins), taking away perceived skills and titles, does Rashad have a legitimate case for #1 light heavyweight in the world. Let's run through the current top 10 (as one assumes you would have to be in the top 10 to have a resume that qualifies you to be in the running for #1).
Update: I screwed up badly when writing this far too late last night and did a four year window instead of five. Please forgive my mistake. The main changes in a 5 year window would be adding in Rampage Jackson's Liddell win, adding in Dan Henderson's Misaki loss and Wanderlei win and adding Shogun's win over Overeem.
Jon Jones
5 Year Record: 13-1 (7-1 UFC)
3 Best Wins: Mauricio Rua (TKO), Ryan Bader (Sub), Vladimir Matyushenko (TKO)
Losses: Matt Hamill (DQ)
Quick Notes: Jones is hurt in this scenario by taking perceived skill out of the equation. He has two legit "high level" wins, and then it's picking which mid-tier win is the best. His loss was a strange situation, obviously.
Mauricio Rua
5 Year Record: 3-3 (3-3 UFC)
3 Best Wins: Lyoto Machida (KO), Chuck Liddell (TKO), Mark Coleman (TKO)
Losses: Jon Jones (TKO), Lyoto Machida (Decision), Forrest Griffin (Sub)
Quick Notes: A .500 record, two stoppage losses and having Mark Coleman listed as a "best win" during the period is not pretty. Shogun is obviously a talented fighter, but if you're going purely by resume it is hard to put him in the running for #1.
Quinton Jackson
5 Year Record: 5-2 (5-2 UFC)
3 Best Wins: Lyoto Machida (Dec), Wanderlei Silva (KO), Matt Hamill (Dec) Dan Henderson (Dec)
Losses: Forrest Griffin (Dec), Rashad Evans (Dec)
Quick Notes: No stoppage losses is a nice bonus, as is an above .500 record. But he lacks a third true "big" win in the five year period. For some reason I forgot originally that Henderson was within the 4 year window. The Liddell win sits just outside of it.
Rashad Evans
5 Year Record: 6-1 (6-1 UFC)
3 Best Wins: Quinton Jackson (Dec), Forrest Griffin (TKO), Chuck Liddell (KO)
Losses: Lyoto Machida (KO)
Quick Notes: One loss was a violent loss but to a high level fighter. Liddell was ranked in the top 3 at the time of the win, despite his fall off after that fight. The Thiago Silva win could also be slid into the "best wins" list given his long standing period in the top ten. Some ugly looking wins, but a very impressive record.
Lyoto Machida
5 Year Record: 7-2 (7-2 UFC)
3 Best Wins: Mauricio Rua (Dec), Rashad Evans (KO), Thiago Silva (KO)
Losses: Quinton Jackson (Dec), Mauricio Rua (KO)
Quick Notes: Machida has had a stellar run that I think some may overlook. The Rua win was debated but a very close fight. Wins over the current #2 and #3 are hard to ignore.
Forrest Griffin
5 Year Record: 4-2 (4-2 UFC)
3 Best Wins: Mauricio Rua (Sub), Quinton Jackson (Dec), Rich Franklin (Dec)
Losses: Rashad Evans (TKO), Anderson Silva (KO)
Quick Notes: Two bad, violent stoppage losses but three very solid wins (and a win over Tito Ortiz for good measure). Injuries keeping him inactive for all of 2010 hurts.
Dan Henderson
5 Year Record: 6-3 (3-2 UFC, 3-1 Strikeforce)
3 Best Wins: Fedor Emelianenko (TKO), Rich Franklin (Dec), Michael Bisping (KO)
Losses: Jake Shields (Dec), Anderson Silva (Sub), Quinton Jackson (Dec)
Quick Notes: Four fights at middleweight, one at heavyweight and four at light heavyweight make it hard to judge Dan as a 205'er exclusively. At the weight in the 5 year period he was 3-1.'
Phil Davis
5 Year Record: 9-0 (5-0 UFC)
3 Best Wins: Antonio Rogerio Nogueira (Dec), Alexander Gustafsson (Sub), Brian Stann (Dec)
Losses: None
Quick Notes: Stann is now a middleweight, but for someone still a bit "unproven" Davis has three very good wins on his ledger. The Gustafsson win is looking better every day.
Thiago Silva
5 Year Record: 4-2 1 NC (4-2 1 NC UFC)
3 Best Wins: Keith Jardine (KO), Houston Alexander (KO), Tomasz Drwal (TKO)
Losses: Lyoto Machida (KO), Rashad Evans (Dec)
Quick Notes: A positive drug test and no top level wins. I think we can ignore Silva in this discussion.
Rafael Cavalcante
5 Year Record: 6-2 (3-0 EliteXC, 3-2 Strikeforce)
3 Best Wins: Muhammad Lawal (TKO), Antwain Britt (KO), Aaron Rosa (TKO)
Losses: Dan Henderson (TKO), Mike Kyle (TKO)
Quick Notes: Nice win over Lawal, that's it.
So who is it? Which light heavyweight would be ranked #1 purely on resume alone?
Personally, it seems like it's down to Evans and Machida for the top spot.
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this would be better if you put the rankings of the people when they fought them (like Jones beat #1 Shogun)
Evans three best wins read someting like #3 Jackson, #1 Griffin, #3 Lidell
Hard to argue with that TBH. My looking at it purely this way, Jones doesn’t compare. But he is young and hasn’t had the chance to fight as many top guys like the others on the list. That is why this type of ranking falls short.
With Jones you kind of have to look at "how" you win
It’s like how Boise State may not have the same strength of schedule that Alabama has, but could be ranked higher because of them destroying lesser competition by a very wide margin.
Agreed
It’s like saying the 1927 Yankees weren’t an all time great team because the competition was weaker back then
Looking at it like that it’s probably down to Machida or Evans on strength of wins. Machida does have one more loss though, as unfair as I thought that decision was.
"I don't care, hit him with your groin!"
i think this is a great example as to why it’s never a good idea to base rankings just off of the facts. Without subjective analysis, there’s no weight to add to the facts. We’re getting a black and white picture with no grayscale.
But on this, probably Rampage or Machida. I think Rashad would be #4 going off of just the facts.
He’s already made it up to #7 on our all-time list…
Creator of the FightMatrix rating system [http://www.fightmatrix.com].
Agree completly ^^^^^
" Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth. " ~
Mike Tyson
by MidWayMonster54 on Aug 9, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
hamill over liddell AND henderson?!?!
shouldn’t you insert the liddell or henderson wins for rampage instead of the hamill win? i think you’ve made a gross oversight.
by kaaybomb on Aug 9, 2011 9:23 AM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Good point – now that I think about it both those should be in over Wandy and Hammil.
"I don't care, hit him with your groin!"
by 3PA on Aug 9, 2011 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I logged in to say the exact same thing.
It sounds silly, and it could have been a mistake, but I got outraged by the fact that you might have thought Hamill was a better win than Henderson. Hendo and Liddell are( at the time for liddell) light years ahead of Hamill on terms of a W.
by Mantis xX on Aug 9, 2011 9:31 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I figured and assumed those fights were mroe than 5 years ago
but they weren’t
HUGE oversight there Brent. Rampage came in and knocked out the long standing #1 inthe UFC and then beat the pride champion.
That HAS to shoot Rampage up the list. Wins over Lidell (#1), Henderson (Pride Champion), Jardine (ranked at the time). Silva (ranked), and Machida (top 3), Hamill (ranked)
decision losses to the #2 or 3 Evans and a extremmely close decision loss to #2 Griffin.
That is a better resume than Machida IMO and damn close to evans.
It’s a mistake on my part to not include Hendo.
But Chuck was over 5 years ago.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
May 2007
This would start with August 2007
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah exactly
you counted evans win against liddell as one of his best 3, yet not for rampage? how do you count his wanderlei silva win ahead of his liddell win when he beat liddell for the championship at that time. Also, how do you overlook henderson? your whole debate lost all credibility based on that oversight completely, epic fail.
Liddell win was more than 5 years ago.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I was gunna say...
May 26, 2007 according to wikipedia.
That’s about 4 1/2 years ago.
I was gunna say I hate to be that guy, but clearly someone beat me to it.
Everyone is jumping all over this
but I have to get in on this as well. "But he lacks a third true “big” win in the five year period." Except for the time he came in and KTFO’d the reigning LHW Champ and UFC Hall of Famer. Or that time he beat the former Pride LHW Champ to “unify” the belts.
Ya, no third “big win” for sure.
BOTH of those wins are bigger than the Machida win.
by gavingavinkindgavin on Aug 9, 2011 9:43 AM EDT reply actions
I feel like we need to comb through
all of these guys now for more glaring oversights.
by gavingavinkindgavin on Aug 9, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Why should we forget what we have seen with our eyes?
Jones is dominant, watch his fights, clearly he is #1
Rampage, huge wins, never been dominated in the UFC #2
Hendo #3, Rashad #4, Machida #5
yeah fuck statistics bro lets just go with our gut.
Rich Franklin #1
by Body Triangle on Aug 9, 2011 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
A Dominant win is much more important than squeaking out a decision
Dan Henderson has been finishing guys at 205 and above, his loses are at MW
I guess too many people agreed with Brent's last post on Evans
Cause this really ups the ante. Even by the pretty narrow rule-set defined in the post, I don’t see how you put Evans above Machida, since Machida has the enviable tiebreaker of KTFOing Evans.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Aug 9, 2011 9:58 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I still like Rampage over Machida though
Lidell (KO), Henderson, Machida (SD), Silva (KO), Hamill with losses to Griffin (UD) and Evans (UD)
is greater than
Shogun (UD), Evans (KO), T. Silva (KO), Ortiz, Couture (KO) with losses to Rampage (SD) and Shogun (KO)
Rampage as the (disupted/close) win over Machida, and Machia’s win over shogun was just as close and just as disputed.
And KO’ing Lidell at that time is still the best win on anyones list right now. And then to follow it up by beating the Pride Champion has to count for something.
The poll results are weird,
who would put Jon Jones at #1 looking just at resume!
He only really has the one “top level” win, in my mind, and that’s against a rusty Shogun. Obviously the Bader win was impressive and huge as well, but Bader isn’t really a contender for the top LHW spot, whereas Shogun is an all time great who is still in his prime (assuming his knees co-operate).
In my mind the top 3 are some order of Lyoto, Jackson, and Rashad. Can’t decide who is #1. If Lyoto had gotten the decision against Jackson … but then again he did get a close one against Shogun … if Quinton had dropped the fight to Forrest … maybe Rashad does have the best resume!
Mouth breathers saw “best LHW” in the title, then moved down to the polls.
by castleeb on Aug 9, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But if you go back six years instead of five. . . .
Chuck Liddell has four title defenses (Horn, Couture, Sobral, Ortiz.) Even if you stick with the last five, he has two. Excluding Jones because he hasn’t had a chance to defend the belt, only Rampage and Machida have defended the belt once. Griffin, Evans and Rua failed to defend it once.
Not saying that Chuck should be number one, his career fell like a fat girl on a waterslide after the Rampage loss, but he did do something no one else did in the last five years, defend the title twice.
What screams date rapist more: An Affliction t-shirt or a guy on the corner screaming, "I'm a date rapist!"
by FragglesHateKos on Aug 9, 2011 10:04 AM EDT reply actions
from 2007 to 2011
Rampage is 7-2 in ufc not 5-2..I put him number 1.he beat chuck for the title then defended against henderson.he’s never been stopped in the ufc and his 2 losses came after long lay-offs
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 10:05 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Wow!
Its crazy how a little oversight on Rampage’s best wins would completely change the discussion. I think that shows how great the LHW division is and how close the top fighters are compared to each other.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
umm, i'm not sure if you got the records correct. Assuming you want to include every fight within the last 5 years, then every fight since August 9, 2006 should be included
These are the “updated” records:
Jon Jones
Record – 13-1
Wins – Shogun Rua, Ryan Bader, Vladimir Matyushenko, Stephan Bonnar
Losses – Matt Hamill
Shogun Rua
Record – 7-3
Wins – Lyoto Machida, Chuck Liddell, Alistair Overeem, Kevin Randleman, Mark Coleman
Losses – Jon Jones, Lyoto Machida, Forrest Griffin
Lyoto Machida
Record – 9-2
Wins – Shogun Rua, Rashad Evans, Randy Couture, Tito Ortiz, Thiago Silva, Sokodju
Losses – Rampage Jackson, Shogun Rua
Rashad Evans
Record – 8-1-1
Wins – Tito Ortiz, Rampage Jackson, Thiago Silva, Forrest Griffin, Chuck Liddell, Michael Bisping
Losses – Lyoto Machida
Forrest Griffin
Record – 6-3
Wins – Rich Franklin, Tito Ortiz, Rampage Jackson, Shogun Rua, Stephan Bonnar
Losses – Anderson Silva, Rashad Evans, Keith Jardine
Rampage Jackson
Record – 7-2
Wins – Matt Hamil, Lyoto Machida, Keith Jardine, Wanderlei Silva, Dan Henderson, Chuck Liddell
Losses – Rashad Evans, Forrest Griffin
Chuck Liddell
Record – 3-5
Wins – Babalu, Tito Ortiz, Wanderlei Silva
Losses – Rampage, Keith Jardine, Rashad Evans, Shogun Rua, Rich Franklin
Dan Henderson
Record – 8-4 (5-1 at LHW)
Wins – Fedor, Feijao, Babalu, Michael Bisping, Rich Franklin, Paul Harris, Wanderlei Silva, Vitor Belfort
Losses – Jake Shields, Rampage Jackson, Anderson Silva, Kazuo Misaki
by darkotto23 on Aug 9, 2011 10:12 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This changes things slightly
It’s clearly either Rampage or Machida, whereas before it was either Machida or Rashad.
Rashad has a better record either way.
GreenHouse
Fave 3 fighters: BJ Penn, Rashad Evans, Frank Mir
Proudly Supportin the fighters you Love to Hate.
to clear it up
This would have started in August 2007
Liddell fight was before that. I should have included the Henderson win but messed up when writing this at 1:30am.
Sorry for the confusion.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:13 AM EDT reply actions
I think Brent's Math is failing him!
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
That’s true. I was thinking more in terms of:
August 2007, August 2008, August 2009, August 2010, August 2011. BUt you’re right, that’s 4 months. Basically, don’t write articles after 1am.
I’ll update rampage’s post. it was a stupid ass mistake on my part
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
2007 - 2011 is clearly 4 years.
I’m an idiot
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
This is the part I was looking for
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 9, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
It's cool we all make mistakes sometimes.
You can fix it and we can start the discussion over.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
brent your math is way off man
May 26, 2007 to Aug 1 2011 is
4 years, 2 months, 6 days aka less than 5…
I guess 38 people(who voted for Jones) don't understand the topic!
Jon Jones can not be the #1 of the last five years. He just hasn’t been able to face the alot of the top guys YET!
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
Jones can do anything through Jesus, man.
"... All reined up in old language and old assumptions, straining to jump clean-hoofed on to a whole new track of being I only suspect is there. I can't see it, because my educated, average head is being held at the wrong angle..."
by dancingChicken on Aug 9, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe Jesus is using his ability to vote as many times as he wants to help Jon look good in this poll!
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
I blame our education system. People are reading this post but not understanding how it works so just clicking the first name on the poll.
by Empty Thoughts on Aug 9, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Why can't we just hate Rashad?
All I’m seeing on MMA sites are attempts to convince people not to hate Rashad and to appreciate him.
There are some people you just don’t like or rub you the wrong way, you don’t have to have a reason.
The Big Book of English for MMA: Brazil Edition! Including Such Staples As:
"I'm Ready For Fight!"
"I'm Excite For Fight"
"I'm Train"
"He Will Receive The Punch"
"I'm Good Standup"
I think it's more of them wanted people to respect his skills.
It’s not about his personality!
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
What if I told you his fighting style rubbed me the wrong way also?
Would I be required to write a dissertation on his performances while attempting to discredit his wins?
If people didn’t hate Rashad Evans he would have 0 drawing power. People are watching to see him get KO’d not wrestle. I can’t speak for other people but his fight with T. Silva was lame until he got rocked and he ruined the build up for his fight with Rampage.
The Big Book of English for MMA: Brazil Edition! Including Such Staples As:
"I'm Ready For Fight!"
"I'm Excite For Fight"
"I'm Train"
"He Will Receive The Punch"
"I'm Good Standup"
I'm not talking about his fighting style either.
It’s his SKILLS that need to be looked at in a more objective way. And just for the record I HATE Rashad!
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
:)
I do too, let’s be friends.
The Big Book of English for MMA: Brazil Edition! Including Such Staples As:
"I'm Ready For Fight!"
"I'm Excite For Fight"
"I'm Train"
"He Will Receive The Punch"
"I'm Good Standup"
Anyone who doesn't like Rashad's personality his a friend of mine already!!!
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
I am a huge Rashad fan
And i agree that fight was only exciting in the 3rd round.
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
MMA is stepping on other people's dreams to reach your own.
- Roxanne Modafferi
by The Blackula on Aug 9, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
honestly i think it could be a 3 way tie between Rashad, Rampage and Lyoto
they all have similar records (9-2, 8-1-1, 7-2) they all hold wins over each other (Rampage over Lyoto, Lyoto over Rashad, Rashad over Rampage), they were all UFC champions, and they all have plenty of wins over notable opponents.
rashad and machida have both been knocked out cold
That’s another reason I give the nod to rampage
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 10:17 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Yeah but Rampage looked like they just picked him out of the audience against Rashad.
He looked very,very bad in that fight.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
But what happened immediately after he recovered?
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
I am not saying he looked good or anything
but a completely ring rusted, fat rampage still didn’t get finished and still was dangerous in the third round of the fight
That is much better than getting stanky legged or KO’d like his other competition
Then got slammed and pounded until the round ended.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I love how people tend to forget this part
It is like 98% of fans have this false memory that Rashad ate a punch and then spend the last 3 minutes of the fight stumbling around with birds tweeting around his head.
El Santo inspired me to be a submission grappler.
I don’t like your re-writing of history…
by Empty Thoughts on Aug 9, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
thats your definition of pounding?
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 11:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
However, Rashad didn’t actually look like a world class LHW against Machida either
MMA For Real Contributor
by Charles Walker on Aug 9, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
He stuffed a couple of Evan's takedowns
Not many ppl can do that, the fight was competitive. Rashad was getting dominated by Machida even before he got knocked out,
yeah 40 cal but
Rashad never came close to finishing a rampage who looked like he was picked out of the audience and hit him with a big shot in the first 15 second!! And then rashad almost got finished in rd 3..says a lot about both fighters
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 10:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That's true but
Rampage looke a lot worse than Rashad. All Rampage really did to him was land that punch and Rashad recovered pretty quick and went right back to doing what he wanted to do.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
if he would of done that to a in shape rampage
It would of been impressive but I still give rashad credit for the win
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 11:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Would the 75 people who voted for Jones give an argument for how they think he is #1 based on
Strength of Schedule in the last 5 years?
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
I completely fucked up. Just to be clear
This was done with a 4 year window, not 5.
Apologies to everyone.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:25 AM EDT reply actions
How many fighters Top wins and losses will change after you fix it?
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
Henderson would get Wanderlei win but also Misaki loss.
Rampage would get Chuck KO win.
Rashad’s draw with Tito would enter in.
I guess you would put Shogun’s win over Overeem on there.
Those are the guys who would factor in at all. So really Henderson and Rampage are the guys it impacts
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Cool thanks. You got to admit tho that the oversight of Rampage's wins over Hendo and Chuck completely change this discussion.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
They absolutely do.
It becomes Rampage, Rashad and Machida in the discussion for #1 spot.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Like I posted above.
I think it shows how great this Division is that leaving out one or two names makes such a big difference.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
4 year window is kind of odd, Brent
Seems like you are picking a random amount of time to help prove your point?
5 year window makes much more sense IMO.
(I hope it doesn’t seem like I am picking at you or anything lol. not my intention)
I meant to do a 5 year window and for some reason at 1:30am my brain just failed me. I just am not going to go back in and update everyone’s info when I have to keep moving on other posts for the day so just changed the window in the post to four years.
4 year does split my preferred 5 year window and Fagan’s preferred 3 year window ;)
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
wish i had a quality derpface.jpg right now
"Kickboxing is great. It combines the style and grace of boxing with... kicking." -- Norm MacDonald
by Anthony Pace on Aug 9, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
This post does show
why I don’t think Shogun should be #2 in the world right now. His best wins are Machida, a shot lidell, and COLEMAN???
While being dominated by Jones.
How is this man still #2 ranked in the world? He doesn’t have the resume for it at all.
Well, the first loss to Machida actually helps his cause, I think.
Although I agree that based strictly on resume, there’s not a convincing argument for him being so high.
Yeah I dont get why he’s so highly regarded either. Though should he beat Forrest this month then he would’ve avenged 2 of his 3 losses with the only other loss coming to Jon Jones….and I dont see him ever avenging that one.
by Spider_Vemon on Aug 9, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
This argument
Shows why we don’t pick the MVP in baseball based on who’s batting average is best.
It was supposed to be 5 years. I fucked up and only did 4.
I might as well just delete this fucking post entirely
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 9, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't do that we are having a fun conversation here Brent!
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
You can delete all comments and start the whole argument again, using the 4 year span.
Twitter @iamroadmap
No way! You can't delete my post and make the effort I put into them seem worthless!!!
:)………
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
I think it's funny
Not in a mean way, but it’s like that time everything went bold and Nick Thomas started spazzing out
"Kickboxing is great. It combines the style and grace of boxing with... kicking." -- Norm MacDonald
by Anthony Pace on Aug 9, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh no not the great bold debate.
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
I'm prepared to make bold statements.
"Kickboxing is great. It combines the style and grace of boxing with... kicking." -- Norm MacDonald
by Anthony Pace on Aug 9, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
The lost to Hamill should never be counted, Jones is basically undefeated
http://www.twitter.com/VonSyndicate
Basically Shmasically!
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
Well if it does get deleted I wanted to make sure I was able to add
CLINCH HASHAD!
The Big Book of English for MMA: Brazil Edition! Including Such Staples As:
"I'm Ready For Fight!"
"I'm Excite For Fight"
"I'm Train"
"He Will Receive The Punch"
"I'm Good Standup"
This post would be so much better if it was based on 5 years...
lol, sorry just had to add to the general clutter of people not reading the other 50 complaints about this. Seriously though, nice topic even with the minor errors that people are getting hung up on. It really shows how competitive the LHW division in the UFC has been for years now.
Personally I’d go with a three way tie between Evans, Jackson, Machida. If I had to choose though as much as I hate it, I’d go with Jackson right now. This is only looking at resume though and not how I felt a fighter looked in those fights (Jackson has looked horrible in his last few honestly) or if he actually won those fights (I think he lost the Machida fight).
i think horrible is the wrong word
A fighter that looks horrible gets finished or gassed out in the fight.
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 11:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m sure there is a better word there, but the sentiment remains the same. He hasn’t looked great in his wins or losses recently after coming into the UFC in a very impressive fashion.
I still think he edges the competition here based off of those earlier wins, but not by much. By even less if we were talking about how the fights played out and not just the result.
by Empty Thoughts on Aug 9, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah ok but look at the last 3 guys he fought
Its not easy to look good against a fighter who circles the cage and doesn’t engage and two fighters who wanna wrestle.I think he’ll look good in the jones fight based on the match up
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 12:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Jones is going to want to wrestle too. He already said that if Rampage thinks it’s his best chance to win he might as well do it.
by Spider_Vemon on Aug 9, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but greco-roman wrestling is a better match up for rampage because its a style that relies more on strength than speed.Jones will have a hard time trying to muscle around rampage.
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 12:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Jones has yet to have a hard time muscling around anyone. Including high level super muscular Ryan Bader.
by Spider_Vemon on Aug 9, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
no need to compare bader to rampage
To totally different animals.No jones has not had trouble but its quite possible he will vs rampage
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 12:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yes he did
I’m tired of people saying a fighter is a great wrestler because of what he did in college.This is not college wrestling this is mma if you can’t put all the elements of fighting together than it doesn’t matter.
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 1:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You can point to the styles as to why those were bad match ups, I’d argue though that Jackson himself has as much to do with it though. He has changed his style of fighting, seesawed back and forth on whether or not to be a fighter, and just looked bored in general while in the ring.
Pointing to Hamill, Evans, and Machida’s styles as why they were bad fights is the easy out.
by Empty Thoughts on Aug 9, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
no the problem is
People are under the impression that a great fighter always has to have great fights and that’s just not the case.Every fight doesn’t have to have a big slam or end in a brutal ko, now the mma world has become just as much strategy as it is fighting
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 12:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Some people are, I’m not one of them. I could care less if the fight ends in a finish as long as it was entertaining to me. That isn’t the case here though and again it’s just another easy answer.
I think we won’t make any headway on this though so no point in continuing is there?
by Empty Thoughts on Aug 9, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
yes there is a point to continue
Because uh um ok not really
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 1:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Machida looked horrible in his fight against rampage…that’s more accurate. or timid. either or.
by Spider_Vemon on Aug 9, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Pretty much my opinion on it as well. I think he won, but he made it a hard sell in the early rounds.
by Empty Thoughts on Aug 9, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
He was very gun shy. And who can blame him? His last outing he tried to be aggressive and got blasted hard for his troubles.
by Spider_Vemon on Aug 9, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t blame him at all for the first round at least. Getting his feet back under him and testing the water and all that. I had hoped at the time that he would have turned it up in the second though and it just wasn’t the case. Oh well, spilled milk.
by Empty Thoughts on Aug 9, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Anderson Silva #1
He’s only fought at 205 twice but I can’t think of a single 205’er who looked more dominant than he did in those 2 fights and also can’t think of one other than Johnny Jones that would be the betting favorite over him and hell that line might even be even…
by Spider_Vemon on Aug 9, 2011 11:46 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Did you read the article?
"What do you know about my vision? My vision will turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself: Are you really ready to see that vision?"
-Huey Freeman
Oh, thank god. lol nicely done sir
"What do you know about my vision? My vision will turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself: Are you really ready to see that vision?"
-Huey Freeman
It was more of a jab and Hendo’s record since they are crediting him with fighting outside his weight class.
by Spider_Vemon on Aug 9, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Machida and Rashad are so close as to be impossible to choose without bias.
These two are easily tied for 1st place. Machida may have 1 more loss than Rashad, but he has one more fight as well and he’s beaten Rashad. Machida’s win over Couture is pretty equivalent to Rashad’s win over Tito so I’m still at an objective stalemate.
Expanding the field of information to form a decision by factoring in quality and ways of winning though (I thought Machida deserved the decision nod in his fight against Rampage and he’s brutally finished everyone else), I have to go with Machida.
by Cocytus on Aug 9, 2011 12:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I Concur
with almost everything but I have to give Rashad the edge
Viewing both the wins over Tito and Handy as the same (both finishing a over the hill former champ in the second round) is very astute.
Can’t wait to see how the Jones/Rampage fight changes things.
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
MMA is stepping on other people's dreams to reach your own.
- Roxanne Modafferi
by The Blackula on Aug 9, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
whoever wins jones vs page
Will be the most impressive win of the year in that division.Its the only title fight that someone isn’t coming off a long layoff or surgery should be no excuses.Hopefully a clear cut winner and not a close decision
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 1:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It may change things for Jones if he beats Rampage, but if Rampage wins, I still say Rashad, as Rampage still has the Forrest loss and loss to Rashad hanging over his head.
I typed this whole thing with a broken frickin' skull!
by theprodigy1981 on Aug 9, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Jones vs Rampage really muddies the water if Rampage wins
If Rampage wins, he ties up with Rashad and Machida for #1, however they create a logic loop, ie Machida > Rashad > Rampage > Machida…. The loss to Forrest is the only thing preventing him from clearly taking the #1 spot should he win.
If Jones wins, I think his strength of record puts him at #1 since he’ll have beat someone who is currently in the conversation for that number one spot. Having beat Shogun also means he has 2 legit wins over top shelf LHWs. The DQ to hamill just doesnt hold enough water for me to use it against him being #1.
Wow, I feel rampage is getting overlooked big time according to the results. I thnk he has some pretty good wins and no losses by stoppage should earn him some more votes.. I’m not saying rashad and machida shouldn’t be getting votes just shocked how little rampage is being picked.
that shows you 1 of 2 things or both.
People are voting according to who they like/dislike or don’t know how to analyze the information being presented
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 1:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Your exaclty wrong with that comment
If you look at it objectively, by JUST analyzing the information, Rampage cannot be #1 based on the losses to Forrest and Rashad. It doesn’t matter that he was not finished, because you are only looking at the wins and losses. By your logic, we’d have to count Rampage’s lack of finishes as well in ranking him just as much as the fact he was not finished..
I typed this whole thing with a broken frickin' skull!
by theprodigy1981 on Aug 9, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldnt vote for him also based on miserable outings against Jardine and Hamill. I mean hell, he nearly dropped the Jardine fight in the 3rd round.
rampage
Is the only fighter that has both defended the belt and not been knocked-out.
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 1:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ok…BJ defended the belt and wasnt KO’d but you’d be hard pressed to find anyone saying he’s been the absolute best LW in the past 4 years
hahaha
Okay give me another good laugh who has been the best LW?
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 1:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
oooh good answer i like how you avoided that
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 2:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
In the past 5 years, Penn defeated Sherk, Florian, Sanchez, Stevenson, and Pulver. Not really a who’s who of 155. Edgar in the same time period put down Penn twice, Miller, Tyson Griffin, Sherk, Franca, Fisher, Bocek, and Veach. While Maynard defeated Edgar, Miller, Heurta, Florian, Diaz, and Siver with no losses.
there is no right or wrong in this disscussion
Only fact is that this is all based on opinion,you have yours I have mine
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 1:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hard to say.....
Light heavyweight is such a fickle division that picking a top LHW of the last half decade is akin to picking your favorite child. But based on the evidence and going by whats on paper alone, Evans is the clear pick. I prefer Machida personally as I thought the Rampage loss was an utter travesty. But going on the facts, Rashad’s resume is better than everyone elses on this list.
I typed this whole thing with a broken frickin' skull!
problem is rashad has been put to sleep
And didn’t defend the title
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 1:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You’re too blinded for your bias for rampage. You fail to see the problem with Rampage is not only did he lose twice and shoulda lost a third time to Machida, one of those losses is to RASHAD! Its not like the fight was even disputable. He clearly lost.
your assuming im bias toward who?
I gave you my opinion on the topic and my reasoning for it.I don’t care about any of these fighters and I don’t cheer for any of them either.I pay to watch these fights to be entertained and for the love of the sport.Bias to what?
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
by letter19 on Aug 9, 2011 3:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Dude you’re forever going on a pro-rampage rants. And then you try to act all distant from the issue and tell everyone that they are too emotionally involved if they disagree with you or you simply say they predict too much. You’re full of it man. I respect your opinion and all but dont try to hide the obvious by BSing.
never went on a rant
never had a problem with anyone who disagrees with me, there are people who are emotionally involved and you can tell by there comments.
"I've had no desire to follow in anyone's footsteps. I didn't believe in the term role model until I became one"-letter19
just saying
“Fights” that occured in a ring with a “ref” that had an earpiece in, no oversite and run directly by organized crime should not be included.
You can all choose to lie to yourselves but I will not.
by Suqleg on Aug 9, 2011 3:53 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I say Machida
because the “loss” to Rampage was bullshit, and he blew Rashad right out of the water.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
The problem with "resume"
Is that in college football or any other sport, included in the resume is the score/margin of victory and that’s what hurts Jones in this discussion. TKO decision etc just doesn’t tell you how the fight really went. A 35-10 drubbing of the #2 team or what have you basically tells you what you need to know—-Matt Hamill (DQ) does not (nor would any football score unless a team somehow forfeited because they missed the extra point despite being up 34-0).
Jones didn’t just beat Shogun, he made him look like a child. In football scores, that was 45-3. If the #5-6 team in college football goes out and destroymolishilates the #1 team in an equivalent way to that fight, they jump to #1.
Not afraid to nitpick
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