Jordan Breen offers additional insight on Zuffa/Golden Glory rift
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 6, 2011 12:49 AM EDT
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In his weekly chat, Jordan Breen made a few comments about the Zuffa-Golden Glory situation containing information that I've not seen reported and figured you guys would be interested. As usual, the truth of the matter seems to be in between the proclamations of the "Zuffa! Monopoly! Outrage!" crowd and the "Dana, I want to be in your mix!" group.
This ball is in Golden Glory's court. Firstly, let me say that I think the entire Zuffa handling of this fiasco was absolutely terrible. Concealing the story for as long as they could, then not being forthcoming with information, and then having Dana White make vague comments is pretty brutal. I think, if we have seen anything in the last 12-18 months, it's that MMA's status as a popular sport has rocketed past its own ability to effectively govern its PR matters.
Look at Jon Jones' thumb situation, and how badly his manager Malki Kawa botched it. Now, look at how bad the UFC comes out looking in this Golden Glory matter. The company looks petty, vindictive and secretive, like it has some kind of axe to grind with Golden Glory. In reality, Golden Glory tried to renege on Overeem's contract and demand more money, which is unprofessional in the greatest way. And yet the UFC ends up looking like the bad guy because they so brutally misunderstand PR in that way.
I think damage control-type PR is still the area where the UFC is the weakest. It seems like Dana White and Co. think MMA fans are blathering idiots, and they can sweep any happening under the rug with some vague words, and have people accept it. MMA fans might be irrational and emotional, but they're not idiots.
People have no real understanding of the facts because of how poorly they were presented. Let's go over some basics here.
1) Strikeforce were the stepdad, willing to let the kids run the house. It was routine that fighters would hold out and grandstand for money mid-contract. It was the first thing that Zuffa needed to fix when they assumed control. It actually reared its head immediately, as Paul Daley's team tried something similar before the Nick Diaz bout. The bout was nearly called off before cooler heads prevailed.
2) Taxes kill a lot of foreign fighters. So, when you see that Gegard Mousasi made $2000 to fight Renato Sobral, you can deduce that he was paid a menial "official" purse in the U.S., officially reported to the commission. Later, Mousasi -- or at the very least, M-1 Global, who repped him at the time -- received a much larger check under the guise of consulting, or a bonus, or a performance incentive, or something inane. This allows them to avoid getting gauged on in-state taxes owed to commissions.
The hypocrisy in this is that it is really not that dissimilar from the UFC trying to secretly hand guys discretionary bonuses under the table without other fighters, or even their own management, knowing.
So, here's what you have to know. Golden Glory tried to hold Zuffa hostage for more money for Overeem, betting on the notion that he was important enough to keep around. They bet wrong, Dana White's emotions took over, and he decided to make an example. Afterward, rather than discuss the situation frankly, he tried to pull the "us vs. them" card he used against M-1 Global and others in the past, but poorly represented facts and made the UFC look bad.
That is the brutal thing about the whole act. What did Marloes Coenen and Jon Olav Einemo do wrong? I suppose you could say "They should have chosen better management," but there's still a lot of poorly-directed anger displacement here.
Like I said, in addition to the disclosed "Of the Night" bonuses, Zuffa hands out tons and tons of under-the-table discretionary bonuses. Is that really any less covert and duplicitous than Golden Glory's desire to get paid out-of-state? Do people really, truly, honestly think THAT is Dana White's problem, and not that Golden Glory tried to hold his company hostage for more money? Come on.
Tax is the big issue; Zuffa can write checks directly to fighters for reasons not linked to a direct fight event, thereby bypassing the state taxes on the purse.
[Marloes tweeting her check denoting her as the payee] is basically irrelevant, as it only contradicts Dana White's poorly-chosen half-truth. Refuting non-facts doesn't constitute truth. Of course Zuffa make checks out to her; they have to if they're fighting in an athletic commission.
Here's the problem: Zuffa were innocent, did something stupid, then made themselves look bad. The company actually devolved across that spectrum over the Golden Glory beef.
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Thanks for this JDH
It was painfully obvious that we weren’t seeing the whole picture here, and still aren’t for that matter. But it’s good to get a little insight into the other aspects of the situation.
Through trying to punish GG for the Overeem negotiations, Dana’s not really helping himself either. JOE, while not seemingly an elite heavyweight, was still part of a good fun fight on a main card. That makes him marketable in a very weak division. Coenan just lost the title and by no means deserved to be released. Breen has it right with the total lack of PR control in the UFC. It’s an issue that is consistently present in the form of executive decisions like this and others (Rogan and Rampage recently).
You know what, chris81203? You confuse and infuriate me. - James Brady (Ninjames)
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
I think that these are the money quotes:
Golden Glory tried to hold Zuffa hostage for more money for Overeem, betting on the notion that he was important enough to keep around. They bet wrong, Dana White’s emotions took over, and he decided to make an example.
Zuffa were innocent, did something stupid, then made themselves look bad.
At least someone is giving some inside info, the lack of potential Zuffa-feather ruffling scoops (from people who will NEVER be credentialed) remains a huge problem with the MMA media.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 6, 2011 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Totally agree
I actually think, at this point, ZUFFA opening up its doors to speculators and analysts like ESPN and SI and other among the more established MMA media would be very beneficial to their growth. Imagine ESPN doing lead in shows to major UFC events and post fight analyses. Their iron grip on the media is hindering their reach. A few highlight reels on sportcenter are great, but not enough. Honestly, I think there may be some substance to the argument that ZUFFA wants to keep things manageable and not expand to “NFL levels”.
You know what, chris81203? You confuse and infuriate me. - James Brady (Ninjames)
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
They did do that for a while. During 2010 they were at a lot of shows and MMA Live went on the air on ESPN2 after the PPV. I think the last PPV they did it for was UFC 121.
Exactly and that's a great step forward
But it doesn’t discuss the ins and outs of the business like you see in other major sports. From fight camps to zuffa management. It would have been huge to see something as big as the SF merger covered in detail on ESPN or Fox Sports.
You know what, chris81203? You confuse and infuriate me. - James Brady (Ninjames)
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
Overeem sort of insinuated this during his interview on Inside MMA. Something went terribly wrong with his injuries and subsequent contract negotiations.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2011 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Total PR fail...
If Dana had presented these facts like this (assuming of course that they are facts), 99% of the fans would have supported him instead of so many attacking him and Zuffa.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 7, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d guess that at least half of the fans would still attack Dana on general principle.
The North remembers...
Would you like Freys with that?
Sadly you are probably right
And there would be some argument that he should have caved and signed Overeem on whatever terms, but only by those completely ignorant of the way the world works…
I have been accused of being a Dana hater and a Dana worshiper around here at different times, so…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 8, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that Dana is making a power play, trying to get these fighters to leave their management. Zuffa knows that they are about the only show in town if you want to become known as the best. The purchase of SF pretty much set that in stone. These fighters can go elsewhere and get paid, but will never be able to fight consistently and against top level competition. I think Reem is better off fighting for Dream/K1/Bellator anyway. He looks much more impressive beating down lower tier fighters.
If heavyweight isn't the toughest division in the UFC, then why doesn't someone that can kick their asses move to it? They don’t even have to cut weight!!
I think that Dana is making a power play, trying to get these fighters to leave their management. Zuffa knows that they are about the only show in town if you want to become known as the best. The purchase of SF pretty much set that in stone.
I agree, but it is somewhat of a valid move if things really played out like this – he simply should have said what actually happened…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 7, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t really pick sides here, if i did it would be self serving because I want to see AO in the UFC and that is about all i care about.
The thing is, I find it hilarious that we as fans and even the MMA media types, think we have some right to know the business practices and dealings between entities. Guess what? It isn’t any of our business. Now, when we do find out these details, it is interesting to explore them and sure, go ahead and pick your sides. But when we are excepted from them and aren’t given all the details or mislead about the dealings, we get up in arms. How dare Dana! He’s a liar! Blah, blah, blah.
They shouldn’t make their negotiations public. If i owned the UFC or even GG, I wouldn’t want my dealings out there. So we can sit back and speculate about all the motivations, about who is the bad guy (it must be Dana!) and on and on, but let’s lose the attitude that is is somehow our right to know what happens in these relationships.
I disagree. If I’m buying T-shirt from somebody and I want to make sure that they pay their workers a fair wage, then that is certainly my business. We don`t have a right to know, per se, but nor does the UFC have the right to our purchases.
It is definitely my business if a company I support with my dollars is engaging in unethical business practices. It’s strange that you think different.
by FightingFighting on Aug 6, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
These guys aren’t forced to sign contracts and I think it is funny that you would insult their intelligence that way. i assume that they know what they are signing and it is acceptable to them. You automatically take up the UFC’s side, when, for all you know, it may be just as much a problem on GG’s side.
Or maybe it’s just because I would never buy a UFC t-shirt, lol.
well then you must be very happy with the MMA media...
as they rarely tell us anything that a fighter or Zuffa doesn’t want us to know.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 6, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Is this a big time sport or not?
I can’t think of a single sport with any sort of foothold in the American public where the details of contracts and negotiations aren’t a part of the news cycle. And it’s a part of the news cycle for multiple reasons. First, it’s interesting to the fans. Second, because it keeps companies and players honest. When the details are out there, it’s easier to know who the “bad guy” in a situation is.
Is a running back who put up 450 yards in an awful season really holding out before training camp because he wants a new contract? Is an NFL team refusing to up the pay of a running back they signed as a back-up who they’re now expecting to carry the ball 30 times a game? What incentives are in the contract..etc.
I think this shit should all be public record and not because I want to write about it.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 7, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
The big sports aren’t public record, people talk about it because the players and the owners are having a giant dick measuring contests, players (and especially the agents) want to say they got the most, owners like to say how they are spending a bunch (except when they are losing money around the time every CBA expires).
Its not truly public record, but the business of sports – not just the CBA negotiations, but the signings, trades, holdouts, cuts/releases, contract negotiation details and much more are a regular part of the news cycle in every major sport.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 7, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Right, it’s part of the news cycle because the people involve choose for it to be in the news cycle. The UFC doesn’t choose to make that stuff public, so it isn’t.
Right,
and the reason is, the many fans enjoy hearing about the business side of things. Not all, but many, myself included…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 7, 2011 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Not everything is public record
See: the fact that both the NFL and NBA claimed to lose money, despite insiders leaking info that the leagues made a shitload of money. But they won’t and don’t have to release their books.
BOOSH
The funny thing is, if was ALL public record, we wouldn’t have much to discuss, as everything would probably be the same, comparison speaking.
Any business that has contracts that can be ended early, will result in a “bad guy”. Details usually emerge as speculation from the media or as a negotiation tactic from either or both sides.
No doubt, contract BS is probably the last thing you want to spend your time writing about.
dana ends up shooting himself in the foot
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by Discman2 on Aug 6, 2011 12:54 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
This sh!t is “chess”… it ain’t “checkers”.
Zuffa has basically left Overeem no choice but to leave Golden Glory if he truly ever wants to compete in the UFC. And based on his interview on Inside MMA, Overeem is claiming he wants to fight the best (in the UFC).
I think Overeem will finish off his career fighting in Europe and Japan.
The person I feel worst for is Marloes… poor girl, first she loses her belt, and then she’s cut from her only real shot at the big time…. as time runs out for women’s MMA.
I don't think time is running out for WMMA, but if dream and bellator are the only long term venues for WMMA, Zuffa has certainy lowered Marloes' earning potential.
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
I don't know about that
Bellator can take care of its stars, especially Eddie Alvarez, who remains active enough and is apparently well paid. Adding some higher profile names to its roster would definitely boost interest in the promotion.
I'm not losing sleep over Valentijn and Mighty JOE young getting cut
They were perfectly justifiable. Coenen should have been kept around…but the women’s division, for my part anyway, are just a bonus…if the UFC decides to keep them going, I’m up for it, if not, that’s cool too.
Alistair Overeem being released did and does suck. I personally hope that he maybe logs in a few brutal KO’s over whatever competition he can get outside of the Zuffa umbrella and then finds his way back. Being the #3 heavyweight in the world, as well as the owner of the coveted ‘lineal ttle’ as well as being the lineal champion of almost every folded heavyweight division…he’s sort of worth a lot. Oh yeah, being a kickboxing champion ain’t too bad either.
I believe the heavyweight title is the only one that hasn’t ‘lineally’ found it’s way to the current UFC title.
PACIFIC RIM
in theaters
July 12th, 2013
Overeem getting cut really does suck.
I feel like he doesn’t need any wins outside the org- Golden Glory just needs to play ball with Zuffa here. But, Bas is difficult and now in a position where he’d have to swallow his pride and get bent over a barrel in negotiations (which per Breen, he tried to do to Zuffa), which I don’t see happening.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 7, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Jordan Breen is mixed up on one very important issue.
The commissions do not tax a fighters purse. There is no such thing. It makes no difference if Zuffa pays a fighter 10k through the comission in disclosed payments and then 40k to the fighter in the locker room.
At the end of the day that fighter is responsible for any tax liabilities resulting from 50k USD.
So from a tax liability perspective it makes no difference if the payment is disclosed to the commission or not for a fighter.
It makes a huge difference if you’re paying a third party instead of a fighter. A foreign person has to pay around 20% in taxes to the US government for work rendered on it’s soil (there are tax exemptions with certain countries, etc…)
So the comparison of paying locker room bonuses and paying golden glory is not even remotely close.
Golden Glory wants to set up gyms in the US. They take that payment, they use the money here in expenses to set up and promote their gyms or promotion here and write most of it off eliminating the tax liability… then they pay their fighters cash in their home country either through hawala banking (money laundering) or some other scheme bypassing tax liabilities in both jurisdictions.
or they take it as a consulting fee as a foreign corporation and worry about the tax liability of wherever that corporation is domiciled (if the corp is set up in panama, cayman islands, bahamas, etc… no tax liability).
Accusing people of being involved with real organized crime is meaningless unless you want to provide proof (one of the founders of golden glory being in prison for double murder notwithstanding)… Suffice it to say, it is very apparent that Zuffa wants absolutely nothing to do with them or whoever they are involved with.
While most of this is correct,
I suspect that what Breen was getting at when he said “Tax is the big issue; Zuffa can write checks directly to fighters for reasons not linked to a direct fight event, thereby bypassing the state taxes on the purse.” is simply using the “locker room bonuses” for avoiding state income taxes, not talking about any sort of taxes paid to the ACs proper, which he would surely (?) know better than…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 7, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Accusing people of being involved with real organized crime is meaningless unless you want to provide proof (one of the founders of golden glory being in prison for double murder notwithstanding)… Suffice it to say, it is very apparent that Zuffa wants absolutely nothing to do with them or whoever they are involved with.
This is the funniest fucking thing ever on a thousand levels.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 8, 2011 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Organized crime pot, meet organized crime kettle…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 8, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
What’s all of this BS about AO trying to renege on his contract? His contract calls on him to fight one more time for a prearranged purse. Not wishing to fight ill prepared due to injuries on a short turn around time is not reneging at all. Talks falling through because the parties could not come to an agreement following the last fight on his current contract is also not reneging.
Anyway, this is all theater as both parties will soon seek the same objective…..Reem in a UFC PPV in 2012 and beyond. Zuffa is just giving Showtime a period of time to work with AO if they want to. After AO’s fight in Russia and it’s clear that Showtime isn’t going to do anything with him then we will see the parties coming to an agreement on the only outcome that makes any sense. That being AO making loads of cash for Zuffa in the UFC.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 1:25 AM EDT reply actions
you don't think that Breen...
may have better information on this than you?
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 8, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve stopped relying on other people’s conclusions when they dont provide any evidence to how they came to said concluson. The idea that AO would not have fought in the tourney in Oct because he thinks he can hold out for more cash is ridiculous on it’s face. He wanted to fight and win so that he can be in a better bargaining position following the victory. But what ended up happening? Zuffa cut him when he said he could not fight in September. They didn’t just remove him form the tourney but they cut his ass. Now you tell me who is reneging on who? I know the contracts allow the promotion to do that but the idea that AO is the one who is reneging is preposterous.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 2:44 PM EDT reply actions
It’s preposterous that you think it’s preposterous that Overeem would hold out of a fight for contract related reasons.
Can we please follow this logic and see how it plays out. What does AO can by holding out and not fighting in Oct??? Answer. Nothing. What does he potentially gain by fighting and winning Oct? Answer. A great deal of leverage. The point is that it was VERY much in AO’s interest to fight the next round of the tourney. Is that so hard to understand? I am disagreeing with the author’s suggestion that AO was unwilling to fight in Oct at his contracted rate. There is absolutely no evidence to back up this assertion and more importantly in flies in the face of common sense as I have been attempting to illustrate.
Do I think AO is above holding out on a fight if it serves his interest….no of course not. Maybe he would maybe he wouldn’t.. However, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest that was the case here. No evidence and no logical basis to come to that conclusion.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
he gets the new contract before the fight, the same reason why the ufc won’t give someone a title fight on the last fight of their contract, or nfl players hold out when there’s a year left on their contract, why risk something bad happening in the last fight/year when you can negotiate now.
i’m not disputing any of that. I’m disputing that AO reneged on his contract. It’s a total BS statement not supported by facts or logic.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
we keep giving you the logic for it, and you really don’t have any facts supporting your side of the story either.
I’ll take the word of a member of the mma media that meshes with past behavior over the ramblings of a random commenter.
ok phildo, in the most simple tems please tell me exactly why AO would choose to reneg ie..not fullfill his last fight on the contract???? Please focus on that assertion by Breen.
I know all fo the reasons why extedning the contract fell thru and I know why Zuffa feels it’s in the best interest to cut him but I dont know why AO would choose to back out of his last fight when he has SOOooo much to gain by actually fighting his last fight. That is what Breen is saying…. AO would reneg on his last fight even though he has the world to gain by fullfilling it.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he thought zuffa wouldn’t cut him if he tried to play hardball. He thought zuffa didn’t have the balls to cut him and he thought he had enough leverage now, before fulfilling the last fight because he knew that he would have zero leverage if he lost the next fight.
It’s the same reason why M1 needed to renegotiate after every fight he lost, why not renegotiate for a better deal now if you can do it before you lose?
boom
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 8, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not the same reason because AO hasn’t been losing. He knows he DOESN’T have leverage now which is why he was hoping to fight his last fight b4 contract neogtiations so he would have more bargaining power (see last Inside MMA). The reason why ZUffa alwasy negotiates before the last fight on a contract is up is because they know that the fighter DOES NOT have the leverage at that point. There was question as to who has the power in these negotiations. AO wanted some negotiating power which is precisely why he desperately wanted to fight his next fight in the tourney.
Again the bottom line is that they couldn’t reach an agreement on future SF fights but there can’t be any question as to whether or not AO wanted this last fight. You have to be a utter moron to think he was indifferent about fighting his next fight in SF. He wanted it …Zuffa said you cant have it unless you agree to these future fights. AO found the terms unacceptable so Zuffa cuts him. All of that is perfectly fine and normal. What isn’t fine is perpetuating the slander AO’s good name because of this Zuffa spin.
Unless you have evidence (which no one does because there isn’t any) you should not participate in this slander campaign.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
The slander is that AO was reneging on his current contract with SF.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe I missed something
But I have seen no quote from anyone within the Zuffa organization that says anything like that.
I’m chastising Jordan Breen for making the following satement which you can read above.
" In reality, Golden Glory tried to renege on Overeem’s contract and demand more money, which is unprofessional in the greatest way"
In my comments I’ve made the assumption that Mr. Breen got this bit of “information” from a Zuffa source. My apologies to Zuffa if I am mistaken in that assumption.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
You're the one participating in slander
You’re accusing one party of saying something you have no evidence of them saying. You’re searching for a reason to crucify Zuffa, so much so that you’re just making shit up.
Stop making all these assumptions and selling them as facts.
I’m not sure if you’re thinking too hard or too little. I just made it clear to you what I was doing. I dispute Mr. Breens statement and I think it’s sladerous towards AO. I’ve also made it clear that AO being cut from SF is a perfectly rational outcome of AO and Zuffa not coming to an agreement on future fights.
There is 1 important thing that I dispute. Do I really have to spell it out to you again? If so please re read the 3rd sentence in this comment.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s called disinformation. You dont have to be Ariel Helwani to receive it from Zuffa .
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
even that disinformation is more than your complete speculation. It’s hysterical that you come out guns blazing with no information
what exactly is my complete speculation?? I am disputing Mr. Breens slander against AO because 1. It simply isn’t logical that he would walk away from his next fight in the tourney (provided that it was in Oct when he would be fit to fight) 2. Mr. Breen provides no basis whatesover for his claim that AO was reneging on his contract. Did you read his blog? He gives no specifics and no citations for his accusations. So how is it that I am engaging in specualation when I am merely pointing out the glaring flaws in his assertion. I am suggesting that we should believe what is obvious, what we already know…..Talks broke down and AO was released because they couldn’t reach an agreement on future fights. If anyone wants to accuse one party of reneging they should bring some evidence or at least some specifics to support that claim.
You think it’s engaging in speculation to not let Mr Breens unconfirmed (and flatly denied by AO)assertions skate by without any evidence. I think it’s just pointing out HE is the one engaging in speculation by his inflamatory comment.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he thought zuffa wouldn’t cut him if he tried to play hardball. He thought zuffa didn’t have the balls to cut him and he thought he had enough leverage now, before fulfilling the last fight because he knew that he would have zero leverage if he lost the next fight.
While Overeem undoubtedly had some leverage now, if he won his next fight, particularly had it been in the GP semi’s, he would have had an inordinate amount of leverage, and Zuffa doesn’t play that game – never have, never will.
Hardball tactics seem fine with them, to a point, but if there was some sort of implicit threat of backing out of the GP unless their contract demands were met, it would be very much in Dana’s character to say “fuck you – we’ll see ya!” (as would I in his shoes).
Bottom line – Overeem seems to have overplayed his hand, although in his shoes I would have too, and it may yet pay off for him in the paper thin HW division.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 8, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Should read… What does AO gain by holding out… NOT what does AO can by holding out.
Isn’t it obvious that it is in AO’s interest to fight his next fight in an effort to bbost his worht and negotiaiting leverage?
Obviously Zuffa was aware of this and wanted him to resign to another contract B4 is next fight. AO found the terms of Zuffa’s offer to be wanting and wasn’t willing to sign based on those terms. So what happened?? He got cut form the promotion. Based on these events the author has the audicity to claim that AO is reneging on his contract. If you’re going to make that claim you need some evidence to back it up. You let me know as soon as you find some ok?
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Golden Glory thought they had leverage going into the September fight. 1) because they felt as though he was the most marketable fighter left and thereby essential to the success of the tourney. 2) because he had one fight remaining on the deal- if AO wins, gets a spot in the finals, then walks because Zuffa can’t pony up to his demands, it looks terrible for Zuffa.
So, during negotiations (what’s not clear from Breen’s comments is whether they tried to renege on the deal in place with 1 fight left or on an agreement on the new deal— I suspect it’s the former, but obviously don’t know for sure), GG overplayed their hand and Zuffa decided to make an example of them. That’s all perfectly in line with common sense, and forgive me if I take Breen’s version over yours, when you’re sitting in the same place I am.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 8, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
GG overplayed their hand and Zuffa decided to make an example of them.
While the remaining details may be disagreed on by all of us, at the end of the day, this is the bottom line…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 8, 2011 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
you have no clue...literally no clue whatsoever of what's going on behind closed doors.
I trust Breen’s take on this. But based on your sig, this is your reality, so there’s no room for discussion.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 8, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Based on your response your arguement has no legs to stand on.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
A longstanding, respected MMA journalist...
who has not built a reputation for reporting false facts has reported on this issue. I’ve posted his comments above. Where’s the justification for your argument? That athletes or managers never try to get more money? Go ahead- give me your proof.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 8, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Once again I’m not suggesting that AO not re-siging or doing a contract extension is all Zuffa’s fault or anything like that. What I am suggesting is the idea that AO did not want to complete his current contract is ridiculous. OK , now that you are totally clear on what I am disputing we can examine why it is ridiculous. What does AO have to gain reneging on the last fight of his contract???? crickets chirping… What does he have to gain by fighting the last fight on his contract? Well, if he wins the fight he not only is the current SF champ but also in the gran prix finals. That’s a lot of exposure and bargaining leverage. In short he has EVERY reason to fight his next fight ( maybe not while injured).
Zuffa is aware of this and ZUFFA DECIDES not to let him finish his contract because it doesn’t suite THEIR interests. But the author says “In reality, Golden Glory tried to renege on Overeem’s contract and demand more money, which is unprofessional in the greatest way”.
Breen is telling us that AO was unwilling to fight his NEXT fight unless he gets more money. What i’m saying is that it is far more likley that this is Dana spin statement than a representation of reality. Bottoem line: AO wants to fight in the next round in Oct but Zuffa is yanking his contract and Breens conclusion is that it’s beacuse AO is reneging. Sorry, it’ doesn’t add up. The simple and most likley explaination is that they couldn’t come to an agreement on extending his SF contract and Zuffa showed him the door. I just dont see why Breen has to sully AO’s good name w/o providing any evidence or reasoning to back it up.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
What does he have to gain by fighting the last fight on his contract? Well, if he wins the fight he not only is the current SF champ but also in the gran prix finals. That’s a lot of exposure and bargaining leverage. In short he has EVERY reason to fight his next fight ( maybe not while injured).
You’re assuming that it’s 100% that he wins. Ask yourself this- what would have happened if he lost? I’m a huge Overeem fan, and I don’t think it was guaranteed that he would beat Bigfoot. If he loses that fight, he gets bent over a barrel by Zuffa on his next deal- if he won, then he would have Zuffa over a barrel. By leveraging his importance to the tourney BEFORE the Bigfoot fight (playing harball and threatening to pull out of the tourney lest Zuffa doesn’t pay AO more), Bas Boon tried to reap the rewards of that leverage without risking AO’s loss. He thought that AO was too important to cut. Zuffa said “no he’s not.” Do you see now?
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 8, 2011 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
What you are asking me is " can I see how it could be mutually beneficial for both parties to negotiate now?" Absolutely yes, of course I can. What I can see is AO’s team asking for more money in future fights just as any manager would do. What I cant see is AO saying he wont fight his next fight on his current contract if Zuffa doesn’t pay him more in the future. AO is keenly aware that he needs the next fight to go thru. In the end it’s all moot because if they couldn’t come to an agreement on future fights then it’s typical Zuffa to cut your ass before the last fight happens. My point os that lets jsut place place the blame where it belongs…..The inability to come to an agreement on future fights. What is entirely uneccessary is to speculate that AO would reneg on a fight in his current contract.
Thank you very much for participating in the discussion with me. I think this will all be a blessing in disguise for MMA fans as AO will do a deal to fight exclusive in the UFC sometime in the near future.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I want nothing more than for AO to be in the UFC.
All this bullshit really pisses me off. You have to remember though- Breen isn’t speculating. We are.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 8, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to think he is speculating too. I read his discussion blog. He cites no specifics at all, he just says AO’s mgmt is holding Dana’s company hostage. He doesn’t reference his information and he clearly hasn’t spoke with AO or anyone at GG.
I dont see why he and everyone else cant just accept the most likely cause of AO being terminated. They simply couldn’t come to an agreement on future fights( exclusivity etc..) so Zuffa acted in their best interest and cut him.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
why are you being so thick?
Why would Breen have any bias? He presented information from both sides of the aisle and has broken GG stories in the past. You must not be familiar with journalism, where sources will be anonymous to protect them and thereby receive more info in the future. He’s much better informed than you are and didn’t present this info as “my sense of it is blah blah blah…” he made definitive statements based on his info. I believe him- you feel as though you have a better knowledge of the situation than he does, so the discussion will just have to end there. I say good day sir.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Aug 8, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
He has bias because he is presenting information from only one party. He says AO was holding Zuffa “hostage” You really think that type of journalism represents both parties evenly?
We all agree AO’s team was asking for more money in future fights.
If you want to believe the utterly ridiculous assertion that AO would have shot himself in the foot and walked away from a tourney fight in Oct if they didn’t pay him an unspecified dollar amount more than his contract indicates than that is your perogative.
Thank you and Good day.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Aug 8, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You can’t really be this dense.
You have said over and over again that you understand that Overeem was asking for more money but you can’t see him refusing to fight? There’s no point in asking for more money if you aren’t going to hold out, because then there’s no reason for zuffa to give you the money.
Overeem has not fought many times, why on earth would this time be any different?
I think some of the blame needs to put on BE's shoulders
because they are one of the few MMA websites that decided to wrongly assume this was Zuffas fault. Yes, they could have given out more information when the story broke instead of keeping things to themselves, but that doesn’t mean BE and other sites are free to make up ridiculous claims either.
http://nohonestsleep.tumblr.com
http://penguinsfromthenorth.tumblr.com
http://www.scenepointblank.com
I want to see more United Glory
It’s a fantastic MMA/kickboxing promotion that puts on some excellent shows, and I do hope that it comes to America because we will finally get to see some of the kickboxers in the world compete here.
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