Alistair Overeem Release Mirrors UFC Firing of Jon Fitch
It seems as though every time there is a story where the UFC or Zuffa has pulled off some sort of questionable business move, there is a segment of the fans and media who rush to the "they can do whatever they want" defense. And in the case of the decision to release Alistair Overeem and then a trio of Golden Glory fighters in Marloes Coenen, Jon Olav Einemo and Valentijn Overeem from their respective Strikeforce and UFC deals, that is absolutely true. The UFC has every right to decide that they don't want these fighters on their roster.
E. Spencer Kyte of Heavy took up a few "column inches" with an article about how the Golden Glory releases were a solid business decision and a fair move by the UFC. Kyte also offers the opinion that it's Dana White's personality that makes people see the moves as more than "strictly business":
Here's a question though: would we be having the same discussion right now if White were an unseen, unassuming, mild-mannered suit instead of the in-your-face, over-the-top, emotional person he is?
Probably not because there would be no way to spin this as a vindictive decision. The business side of things would be all that remains, and as long as there is a sound basis for the decision in terms of the business, what can you really say? But because White is involved, it has to be viewed as controversial and spiteful. Few people ever think the UFC President is acting in the genuine best interest of his company; he's always got to be out to stick it to someone, right?
Wrong. These decisions aren't rash and emotional or based on White's feelings being hurt; they're the right steps to take for the company based on the situation that played out last week, a situation no one knows all the details of at this point in time.
They also paints a very clear, very unapologetic picture of how Zuffa operates: no one fighter or no group is greater than the company. Fighters can be replaced. Zuffa is holding just about every card in the deck, and if you want to compete on the biggest stage, you're going to follow their rules.
Of course, no one has any strong reactions to the more vanilla heads of other sports:
The notion that this is only a story because of Dana White's reputation and personality seems a touch absurd. There was a public issue with a champion leading to his release despite holding a promotional belt and being on a 10-0 (1 No Contest) streak since 2007. Due to the politics at play in the situation, having three fighters in the same camp as Overeem released in the following days would have been a story if it were the reserved Scott Coker or the brash Dana White.
There is certainly more juice to the story because of Dana's personality. But I think it's crazy to suggest that it wouldn't be seen as a move that goes beyond mere "smart business" to cut a champion (and current #3 in the world) and then cut his fellow camp members in such a short timespan.
Let's not forget the situation with Jon Fitch and AKA. Fitch was released from the UFC when he and American Kickboxing Academy fighters would not sign over lifetime likeness rights to the promotion. This was a story dominated by the ruthless decisions of the UFC. It was also a story where White's personality factored in much more than with the current Golden Glory story.
To rewind to that story, there were moments of dishonesty about the deal and attempts to make it "not about Jon" by White (via 5 Oz of Pain):
"No, no, no. It has nothing to do with an agreement," White corrected Carmichael when the host began to suggest Fitch was cut amidst reports he wouldn't sign an agreement that would grant the UFC lifetime rights to his likeness for the purpose of making video games.
"It doesn't have to do with Jon Fitch either," continued White. "I like Jon Fitch. I've never had a bad word with Jon Fitch. The problem is with the idiots that run AKA. I won't use any names; the idiots know who they are."
Of course, other moments saw Dana being more honest about his feelings (via MMA Junkie):
"Affliction is still out there trying to build its company. Let [Fitch] go work with them. Let him see what he thinks of those [expletives]. [Expletive] him. These guys aren't partners with us. [Expletive] them. All of them, every last [expletive] one of them."
In the madness of the AKA battle the UFC also was willing to cut a future heavyweight champion:
"Can you believe that?" White said. "Chuck Liddell has that language in his contract. Randy Couture has it. Anderson Silva has it. And Cain [expletive] Velasquez, with two [expletive] fights, wants us to change it for him? That's [expletive] nuts. He can get the [expletive] out.
In many ways, that is the issue. The fact is, Zuffa can play the "we're the big time and we don't need any of you" game. But when it leads to you almost dumping one of the best fighters in the sport's history (Fitch may not be top 10, but he's pretty high on the all-time list still), a guy who would go on to become your heavyweight champion and now the #3 heavyweight in the world, it affects the "sports 'league' with the best in the world" view.
I'm not suggesting for a second that I don't think there was more going on behind the scenes that led to the moves. I just can't put together a situation which warrants these moves and makes them "just good business."
Alistair does appear to have a legitimate injury which made him feel he couldn't be ready for the September date. I would say that if he were really cut for refusing a fight he couldn't feel ready for that it would be a low point in Zuffa's history. And if they don't feel it was legitimate and was instead a play for more money, is there a place between cave to the demands and release him and his teammates from their contracts?
I also have no doubt that GG pushed Zuffa for more money for their fighters. This is not some shocking or unacceptable move. The job of a fighter's management is to make their fighter the most money possible. Making a play for more money is rarely grounds for release.
Some have also suggested that it's Golden Glory's intention to start promoting events in the U.S. or their possible ties to the K-1 revival attempt that forced Zuffa's hand. But neither present any sort of threat to the UFC's position. Is K-1 going to run another horrible failure like Dynamite!! USA again? What kind of big business could we legitimately expect Golden Glory shows in the U.S. to do? We're talking about sub-Bellator levels of exposure.
Zuffa has done of ton of good in this sport, the UFC is undeniably a fantastic promotion. But I just can't sign on with "fall in line or kick rocks" as being truly "good for the sport" when it leads to undeniably vindictive moves like this.
One also has to wonder if, in a year where the average number of UFC PPV buys has dropped by over 150,000 per event, it makes sense to cut fighters like Overeem (talented and exciting more times than not) and Einemo (may have people interested after a fun FotN performance) from the Zuffa roster. Alistair has a lot of the intangibles that can make for a mainstream star in the fight game, something that the UFC roster is lacking in quite a bit.
None of this is to say that the UFC is in trouble, simply that this seems to be a situation which shows that sometimes Zuffa's decision making does seem motivated more by ego and an overly vindictive nature than by calmly and coolly determining the smartest course of business.
144 comments
|
6 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Similar on the "Dick Move" scale
But there was no defensible business reason to cut the AKA guys. This is different in that all 3 fighters had walking papers in their near futures.
50% more Ultimate than the leading competitor.
I want someone to explain to me the business case
for releasing the #3 HW in the world.
Fact: Heavyweights are a huge draw in any combat sport.
Fact: The Heavyweight division is among the thinnest in the sport/promotion
Fact: Overeem is the #3 HW on the planet
Informed Opinion: Overeem is far more charismatic and interesting than any of the top HWs currently under UFC contract.
Informed Opinion: The UFC has a Brock-sized hole in its HW lineup, begging to be filled by a charismatic, physical specimen.
How does it make sense to kick that guy to the curb, and then to further alienate him by cutting his friends’ and relatives’ not-very-rich contracts?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Aug 4, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
Fact:
we don’t know shit about what exactly happened on either side. We really should wait to see what some of the details are before jumping feet first behind this. I’m NOT a fan of this maneuver, but I’m not gonna go batshit until we hear who has what to say
Mel Gibson shot the movie Apocalypto on location at the center of my taint.
-Fake Emcee
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 4, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It's the sport blogosphere
speculation is kind of what we do here. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a vindictive, personality-driven business decision.
I’m eager to be proven wrong, but I have a really hard time believing that Marloes Coenen was out there playing hardball.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Aug 4, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
the thing with coenen
is that it almost makes the most sense that she was cut. this fits right in with what has already been stated that the UFC has no interest in womens mma at this time.
Mel Gibson shot the movie Apocalypto on location at the center of my taint.
-Fake Emcee
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 4, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, but SF still has a women's division
and Coenen is top 3. The timing is bizarre. If they were going to cut her, why wouldn’t they cut her AFTER those divisions were folded? They didn’t cut any other 135 pound women that I’m aware of.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Aug 4, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck
it’s probably still a vindictive, personality-driven business decision. nazi duck.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Aug 4, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’m speaking of these three most recent cuts. The situation with Alistair is a little different, but I can see not wanting to pay out the nose for a guy coming off a shit fight against either the first or second good opponent he’s faced in about 5 years, who then drops out of your heavyweight tournament, and may have been asking to fight for another promotion. I can also see the value in adding an imposing, highly-ranked fighter into your heavyweight division, especially since he would likely become available right around when you’d need a contender. Going off the information we have, I don’t think the situation with Alistair is one where one party is completely in the right and the other is completely in the wrong.
50% more Ultimate than the leading competitor.
It's simple:
Zuffa is running more and more shows, which takes up the vast majority of their time. They simply don’t have time to deal with people like Alistair who try and guide their own careers. You come into the UFC nowadays, the UFC guides your route to the title. Zuffa staff don’t have time for renegotiations, schedule disputes, etc. The days of the high-maintenance MMA fighter are over as far as Zuffa is concerned, and it’s easier to cut ties with people rather than try and “talk things through.” It’s a great business policy because it saves them a ton of time, and sends a strong message to all the other athletes on their roster. Alistair can find big paydays outside of Zuffa, but I’m not sure about the rest of the GG team. Zuffa has shown it hates the camaraderie of fight camps, so maybe they’re hoping to create some descent within the camp. That’s pure conjecture, but let’s be honest: Coenen, while a champion, does not help their business, and neither does Jon Einemo. I won’t mention Valentijn, because c’mon. Basically Zuffa is sending a message that they shocker expect a certain attitude and level of respect from their athletes, and if you don’t want to play by the rules, you’re out. It’s hilarious to me that people point the finger at Zuffa for this when the NBA, NFL, MLB, and NHL all operate the same way. I say good for Zuffa, no more M-1 Global negotiations or fighters whining about who they face and when they’ll be ready. If Overeem never signs with Zuffa he’ll make a lot of money, but it will also prove that he just fights for money and has no desire to be considered the best in the world.
If you want to reach the pinnacle of MMA, you need to fight for Zuffa
and you need to play by their rules. No different than the premiere league in any other sport, Zuffa wins, fans need to get over it and realize that this will result in us getting the best fights possible.
Damn Machial. I have never seen you post yet but I will remember your name spot on. Agreed with you 100%.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 2:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This part is just demonstrably wrong
and realize that this will result in us getting the best fights possible.
Banishing Alastair Overeem from the promotion does not result in us getting the “best fights possible.” This board is a pretty fair representation of MMA fans, and I think if you polled folks here, they’d really like to see Overeem fight the JDS Cain winner, and go on to a long career fighting the best HWs in the UFC.
If the UFC plays hardball and he doesn’t fight for them ever because of it, we lose out on that fight, which is “one of the best fights possible.”
People COUGHsuboCOUGH need to get away from this false logic that because the UFC is good, everything it does and every behavior it exhibits, must, by extension, also be good.
I love the UFC, but it’s not infallible, and its intransigence on these sorts of issues certainly doesn’t benefit fans.
Also, please give me an example of another top three athlete in any major sport who has been cut from the promotion/league for “business reasons.” I’ll give you a hint: that athlete does not exist.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Aug 4, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
selfish just like DW....
A vast majority of these fighters dont get paid half of what they deserve, so they should take less money and no power for some " fan credit" ?….shits weak.
Twitter: Killuminati_BE
You were almost on a roll until...
It’s hilarious to me that people point the finger at Zuffa for this when the NBA, NFL, MLB, and NHL all operate the same way.
These organizations epitomize contract negotiation shenanigans. Players hold out, sometimes for entire seasons, agents run rampant, players demand trades, everyone from coaches to players to management are always throwing each other under the bus and yet the flimsy correlation that people try to draw between the clout of athletes and the downfall of their respective sports is nonexistent. In fact, they’re MORE popular.
Zuffa stands alone because none of the leagues you’ve mentioned have the authority, short of league conduct policy violation, a policy that exist on paper and not just in the commissioner’s own head, to dismiss a player from the league.
In an attempt to preemptively counter your obligatory boxing reference, that sport has had a much more sustained history of success than MMA. It’s not the plethora of organizations and belts that are the problem, because unlike MMA, boxing can unify its belts. The problem is that they’re not developing new stars fast enough, much like MMA. They’re merely further down the road than us. The myth that one super organization would magically, as if by default, guarantee the fans that the “best will square off against the best” is easily refutable. Just ask Koscheck and Jon Fitch. Ask Anderson Silva why he won’t move up to LHW.
In short, Zuffa’s success is not predicated by how thoroughly they suppress insubordination, but on how well they’ve branded themselves as a company. In fact, it’s probably one of the reasons that they’re having trouble developing the next generation of stars. The UFC has no personality, aside from Dana himself. it’s a company full of yes men moonlighting as fighters. This is what makes Overeem so unique. nobody in MMA has been able to independently brand themselves as well as Overeem has. He’s probably the biggest name outside of the UFC, besides Fedor, without having to build the legacy that Fedor has. Sure the UFC’s marketing machine dwarfs his independent efforts, but he probably made a comparable paycheck either way. He may not hold many cards now, but it’s inevitable that the athletes will one day rule this sport as they do every other sport. At the end of the day, that’s all fans will really end up caring about.
by Grease S. Pieces on Aug 4, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
None of those fighters were worth their price tag, except maybe JOE
Overeem isn’t a draw and after that last fight it’s clear he never will be, his brother would get crushed in the UFC, there’s no future in WMMA and unfortunately for JOE he was a casualty it seems because I think he may have been worth keeping.
I would have liked to see JOE again, I dont think Overeems brother truly has it in him to fight anymore, and the ex champ getting cut is ludicrous. Alistair has brought hath wrath of God!
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Overeem drew the second highest ratings ever for Strikeforce. He’s at least as big of a draw as Diaz by the straight #’s and I think he has far more upside for being a major drawing star than Diaz.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 4, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
UFC does not care who you are. No one is bigger than the company. The P4P champ was even on the cutting board for not doing the right thing. This is what makes the UFC so successful.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What is causing the success to slow badly though is that the idea that the “company is bigger than any fighter.” It’s pretty well proven that stars sell PPV’s.
The UFC is 150,000 buys per PPV below where they were in 2010, about 75,000 per PPV below if you only take the first 8 PPV’s of the year (which is where we’re at in 2011). Obviously injuries play into that to an extent but they’re not generating stars at a high enough rate.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 4, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s ridiculous Brent. The company should come before the fighter. That ensures long term viability and profit over the peaks and valley approach.
The UfC needs to do more to push the company first.
Bendo vs Miller should be the headliner based on sport AND entertainment.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The cable execs say
Its only the big names who sell in the UFC.
You put Lesnar, Silva or GSP on a card and you double the buys. At least. I think that’s what Brent means.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Alistair is not one of those names though
He wants to be paid like that because of his accomplishments but he isn’t going to bring in the additional PPV buys that a name like his should. Todd Duffee would probably provide more bang for the buck.
If he wants that kind of money, he's crazy.
If he wants 100k to show, that seems fair.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
I don't know what he's being paid right now
But I am sure it is over 100k since they’re paying Fedor 1.5MM.
I agree, 100k would be a proper amount for him, maybe a little more… but I am sure he wanted something closer to 500k, thus his prompt dismissal.
You're probably right
200k would be pushing it. With bonuses and sponsorships he could have made a lot in the UFC.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Considering the loss of Lesnar as far as we know so far, and the charisma and simply the look of Alistair Overeem, he could potentially be a draw in the very near future. He has shown to have the combination of things to be a draw, and a few intangibles as well.
Check out the C&D Channel on YouTube for MMA reviews, predictions, analysis, and other MMA related content.
I disagree with that Filt. They are doing it wrong. The company should do whatever it takes to have the faith of it’s fans of putting on the best possible product.
Doing Miller/ Bendo might very well create a star as a main event .
We still have the base board of 300,000 ppv buyers. That is set. Let’s do things right now and it will establish long term growth.
Putting on a superior product time after time irregardless of name value is the way to go IMHO.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 1:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm just saying
That’s what a cable exec said. I have no idea how to run a billionaire dollar business.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
My bad Brent. I assumed you were in my head. If the UFC pushed the company line more Bendo vs Miller could be the headliner. See what I’m saying or no?
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That doesn’t really matter though. They are still going to make a shitload of money. They may not make as much money as they did last year, but they will survive because they didn’t look at UFC 100 and give everyone Affliction contracts to celebrate being awesome.
Business is slowing because Brock is going to fight 2 less fights this year than last year, but it’s not slowing to a point where they need to worry about anything.
Their approach of “fall in line or kick rocks” works because their way, while not perfect for everyone, is better than anyone else can offer.
The wretched economy is the chief reason for the decrease in UFC PPV buys.
by Charlie Custer on Aug 4, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it would be interesting if they could track repeat buys. My guess is the buy rate for “average” cards is dropping or leveling off because first-time PPV buyers are thinking it’s not worth $50 or $60 to get five fights that frequently don’t live up to the hype. The more fights they put on Facebook and free cable TV the less inclined the casuals might be to shell out for an additional four or five at the PPV rate.
.....
ooooh yeah
by Scabby Knuckle on Aug 4, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
todays dow drop begs to differ
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Aug 4, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s the lack of Lesnar
The economy’s recovering, but Brock isn’t.
When brock is such a huge part of the UFC’s success, I think that’s an indication of bigger problems.
by Grease S. Pieces on Aug 4, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The economy was wretched when the buy rate was escalating.
.....
ooooh yeah
by Scabby Knuckle on Aug 4, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No... Brent you just don't get it! People opine that certain fighters aren't draws based on their opinion not facts.
Dude really you have to like get with the program. I dont know how much longer you can have the commenters basically educate you on the sport.
by Papercut Elbow on Aug 4, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
None of those fighters were worth their price tag, except maybe JOE
How much do they make?
by Grease S. Pieces on Aug 4, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Seeing as they paid Hendo $800,000 and Fedor $1,500,000
They probably paid them more than they were worth too
I’m with Dana. He has proven himself to do the right thing by fans and fighters time and time again. If he has to put you in your place , so be it, he’s your boss.
Dana’s main goal is the explosion of the sport throughout the world and giving fans more entertainment and getting fighters more money. The guy is so passionate about the sport , he gets the full pass from me. Let the man do his job, and athletes need to grow up and live in the real world.
You listen to the man who pays you, or their can be dire consequences.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:14 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The real world is not a world without labor laws and ethical business decisions. If there is anyone not living in the real world, it’s White.
I think it’s also important to note that the “explosion of the sport” has slowed significantly.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 4, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Laws are bypassed and walked around everyday. The boss is 99/100 going to get what he wants one way or the other.
Do not fuck with your boss, otherwise you and your friends are fucked.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I've told disrespectful bosses off
most of them apologize and treat you better afterward.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Agreed Filt. No one should disrespect you, and you should stand up for yourself and put the boss in his place where need be. It’s a complex scenario where management often is too bossy and workers are often too rebellious.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And if they fired you, they probably didn’t fire the rest of your friends in your department as a follow up
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 4, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Companies are in it to make dollars, not in it to make sense.
When aiming for perfection, you realize that it is a moving target.
by Neo X on Aug 4, 2011 12:17 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The UFC making more money benefits both fights and fans. Dana has shown that time and time again. Why don’t we let the man be. This sport is alive and well today because of his vision.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The flip side is that his megalomania proves the sport needs a viable #2 option
As it is it ISN’T a legitimate sport. A legitimate sport is contested on the battle field. Not by who can curry the most favor Commissar White.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
assumptions are amazing, no?
Mel Gibson shot the movie Apocalypto on location at the center of my taint.
-Fake Emcee
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 4, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed many people forget that this is not a sport. It’s sport/entertainment. The entertainment ugly side is going to rear it’s head every so often.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The guys at AKA caved
If there was still a Pride or a growing SF. I’d bet Dana would be less likely to pull these kinds of moves.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Am I the only one who thinks that the sport of MMA should come first?
All these people saying it’s “just good business” and saying that these athletes “weren’t a draw anyway” don’t give me any hope for MMA fans.
Athletes notoriously act like children in business decisions. They’ve never had the chance to grow up and are generally coddled their whole life. That’s more so were the perception comes from.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yeah, because 20K to show/20K to win is being so fucking coddled…
"A guy in Texas came up to me and told me ‘Frye you're not mixed martial arts, you're no holds barred’, and I said you're god damn right partner." ~ Don Frye
Yea not really about specifically fighters. Was reading the Osi stuff and it’s ridiculous. He is making 3.55 million a year and demands 10 million a year and he actually signed on for TE original deal. It’s just so absurd and ridiculous.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 2:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You obviously don't understand how NFL contracts work
It’s a 2 way street. When a player has a crap season, they get cut because they aren’t worth the money that they are scheduled to get paid. Umenyiora (and every other player that has held out) is just saying that when they have a great season, the players should get paid more because they are worth a lot more than they are scheduled to get paid. It’s 2-sides of the same coin.
And the owners agree that these guys are worth more than their old contracts because they inevitably pay them more money.
Not afraid to nitpick
Exactly
If their contracts were guaranteed (like NBA and MLB contracts) it would be different, but…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 5, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
like it or not, what is good for the sport of mma is what is good for the business of the UFC. If the business stuff doesn’t work out the company dies and the sport dies.
UFC has no product without fighters
I think people should remember this as well. What good is an empty stage?
Bloody Elbow Grappling Editor.
Berate Me on Twitter @KJGould
they still have plenty of fighters and until someone comes up that can pay them more and treat them better than zuffa can they always will.
having “plenty of fighters” isn’t the same as having good fighters. if I ever have to watch Guida vs. Lentz for the LW title I’m done.
"A guy in Texas came up to me and told me ‘Frye you're not mixed martial arts, you're no holds barred’, and I said you're god damn right partner." ~ Don Frye
I'm still waiting to see what UFC/SF/Zuffa/etc
side of the story is before making parallels. For all we know, GG went all M1 on us and said co-promotion. I don’t THINK that happened, but I’m not really gonna assume TOO much before the parties start speaking
Mel Gibson shot the movie Apocalypto on location at the center of my taint.
-Fake Emcee
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 4, 2011 12:26 PM EDT reply actions
that and the GG side of this, for that matter
Mel Gibson shot the movie Apocalypto on location at the center of my taint.
-Fake Emcee
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 4, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
From what I’ve been told they didn’t ask for co-promotion. They did make a play for more money, but that’s not grounds for releasing 4 team members in my eye.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 4, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't they promise Team Takedown fighters
TV slots and basically cut Rosholt for his management trying to enforce that?
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
From what I remember, that wasn't the verbiage
Rosholt wanted to come in at a higher pay scale, and Zuffa obliged him, but made it clear that it meant he’d fight much tougher competition than is customary of newcomers with limited records (which lead to television fights).
"I can be friends with anybody. Man. Woman. Cat. Dog. Fish..... Alien." -Rampage
by Charles Awad on Aug 4, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is pretty much the truth
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 4, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
The televised fights was part of the deal as I understand it, which led to the tougher fights and resulting losses (and derailed career).
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 4, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Rosholt’s contract guaranteed him TV time. That’s a bad contract for a guy coming up , he took a risk and it didn’t work out for him.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
one story i heard was
GG wanted the $ to be paid to them and they’d pay the fighters through that. Again, until someone goes on record and puts forth something we can all sink our teeth into, its just speculation
Mel Gibson shot the movie Apocalypto on location at the center of my taint.
-Fake Emcee
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 4, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that would be between them and their fighters, much like Team Takedown does.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 4, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
if this were a guy in a suit?
So, if this were a guy who didn’t have a history of being an ego maniacal hot head who takes business negotiations personally then we wouldn’t say anything?
Just because this guy helped elevate the sport doesn’t mean he can’t kill the golden goose. This reeks of another situation where someone got on Dana’s bad side and he overreacted again
This will not stand man, this aggression will not stand!
by RearNakedToke on Aug 4, 2011 12:33 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
We all have to deal with work politics.
Anyone who has ever had a job knows this. Sometimes we have to do things our bosses want, or else face the possibility of being let go. The trick is to find a way to play the game without compromising too much. Now, I know the UFC isn’t your typical employer, and I am not saying any of this is right, but Golden Glory brought a go-cart to a game of chicken and got run over. Clearly they didn’t know who they were dealing with. Job security? Yeah, I’d like that. As would everyone else. But that’s a pipe dream. Thus you gotta know how to play the game.
by pud333 on Aug 4, 2011 12:34 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Agreed Pud. That’s why athletes piss everyone off. They’ve been coddled their whole life and have no clue how to play the game of the real world.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
most fighters aren't that kind of 'athlete'
A lot of these guys come from abusive families and broken homes.
You don’t fist fight for living as a result of being coddled. :)
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
fuck that noise. athletes are people of all walks of life. Penn, Hughes, Davis, Jones, Evans, Askren, are all fighters who could easily be considered coddled. they had rich families of scholarships or both. Fitch comes from a middle class family who didn’t want him to wrestle in college, he walked on, got a scholarship and decided to fight MMA, he chose to be broke when he first started. in today’s MMA pros are just as likely to walk in w/ degrees from a university than they are from the street escaping abuse or broken homes.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Aug 4, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
What?
athletes are people of all walks of life
Who said they weren’t?
Penn, Hughes, Davis, Jones, Evans, Askren, are all fighters who could easily be considered coddled
First of all, I said ‘most’ not ‘all’. Second, you should do some research on Matt Hughes and Jon Jones. Third, why are you so mad?
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
4th
You seem to by equating money with happiness. You can be filthy rich and come from an abusive home.
5th, the guys you mentioned are high level, successful professional fighters. I’m talking about fighters in general.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Agree Filt. The coddled athletes is not as big in fighting. But generally you fight because you can’t work as well. Same mindstate , same rebellious you owe me fuck you pay me mentality as the coddled athlete.
In general still not experiencing the real world of no fuck you listen to your boss or starve world that we live in.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 1:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you are a bitter, bitter person
"A guy in Texas came up to me and told me ‘Frye you're not mixed martial arts, you're no holds barred’, and I said you're god damn right partner." ~ Don Frye
Yep
Most fighters are rebellious than subordinate or coddled. That’s for sure.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Rebellious, coddled , spoiled people all suffer the same fate once they enter the real world. Reality check time. It’s just a natural thing. I’m not bitter , but the rest of the world plays by a far more difficult set of rules than athletes do. So no, I don’t feel bad for them when they receive the same exact treatment as any of us would receive on our end.
You guys don’t give military members a free pass for protecting you and serving their country, yet we give athletes a pass? That’s absurd and just wrong on so many levels.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 2:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i’m not equating money w/ anything. i never said any of these guys are happy….i have no idea if they are.
most is a gross hypothesis w/ no actual factual backing. show me that most fighters are from abusive and broken homes and than i’ll show you just as many who aren’t and still enjoy punching and getting punched in the face. they are not mutually exclusive.
generalizations suck and that’s why my comment included “fuck that noise”, but i’m not really angry, i just think both sides of the coin need be displayed
finally, you are correct i was talking about high level UFC calibur pros because this thread started w/ bitching about coddled athletes and fighters at the MFC/Shark Fight level are neither coddled nor clueless about the real world.
my response should have been to both you as well as P123 and Pud.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Aug 4, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
“Why are you mad/ so serious?” is the trending meme here lately, as if people can garner that you’re pissed from picking out a word like fuck in the whole paragraph. Its an easy distraction phrase.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
No holds barred, no time for move fakin,
Gots to get the loot so I can bring home the bacon - Charlie Brown
most is a gross hypothesis w/ no actual factual backing. show me that most fighters are from abusive and broken homes and than i’ll show you just as many who aren’t and still enjoy punching and getting punched in the face.
Why do you reply with that to a comment of:
most fighters aren’t that kind of ‘athlete’He clearly never said that most come from that background…
A lot of these guys come from abusive families and broken homes.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 4, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
thats a bullshit analysis for prizefighters, and you know it.
try to tell that shit to a boxer not named Pacquiao or Mayweather, and even Pac had to pay heavy dues to get where he is.
"A guy in Texas came up to me and told me ‘Frye you're not mixed martial arts, you're no holds barred’, and I said you're god damn right partner." ~ Don Frye
All these, "cut was unfair/fair" articles play into one over riding narrative but is still an assumption
That White has anything to do with the cuts.
The one “solid” connection is that White has display over control tendencies and is out spoken.
He’s Zuffa’s lighting rod regardless if he actually had anything to do with the business decision, period.
I go back to when the WEC was a zuffa company before it was brought into the UFC. White had little to no business interaction with the company/sub division until it was clear that it was going to be folded into the UFC.
It’s more likely that one of the Fertitta’s is actually in charge of unwinding SF, it was their decision to cut the GG fighters. What does White have to do with it?
The standard assumption is “he’s a control freak”. Even if he is, his opinion is unlikely to over ride one of the Fertitta’s.
However fairly/unfairly, White is seen by the masses as the “end all, be all” of Zuffa which is FAR from the truth.
by squaresphere on Aug 4, 2011 12:42 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I’m with this. It’s a pet peeve for me when people are too lazy or dishonest to appropriately target their arguments. It’s like shitting on Cecil Peoples for every bad judge’s decision, all it does is rehash tired arguments and give everyone a chance to dogpile rather than discuss the actual situation at hand.
“This light won’t turn green, stoplights are installed and regulated by the government, therefore Obama is keeping me in traffic because he’s a secret Muslim and hates America.”
50% more Ultimate than the leading competitor.
Cecil Peoples has a historsy of bad judging
Dana White has a history of throwing tantrums.
What’s more telling is Zuffa doesn’t have a PR department to put out press releases and the like regarding contract termination. Even WWE does this with their “we wish them well on their future endeavors” spiel.
If assumption is the mother of all fuck ups, letting people assume has to be the father.
Bloody Elbow Grappling Editor.
Berate Me on Twitter @KJGould
by KJ Gould on Aug 4, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree with some of this
It’d befit them to say something, but it’s in chorus with their stubborn nature. There are several facets of their operations that could use more nurturing and PR is certainly one of them.
"I can be friends with anybody. Man. Woman. Cat. Dog. Fish..... Alien." -Rampage
Yes, Cecil Peoples has a history of bad judging. But for a stretch of time, every time a bad decision happened, people were insulting Cecil Peoples, even if another judge messed up. That’s gotten a lot better, especially since Penn-Edgar I. But blaming him for a decision he wasn’t involved with because he has a “history” is dumb. Same goes for Dana here.
50% more Ultimate than the leading competitor.
I don't know
It’s more of a meme than anything. “Cecil must have had something to do with this!”. You can clearly see who scored what, don’t recall people saying Cecil was the devil on Trowbridge’s shoulder.
"I can be friends with anybody. Man. Woman. Cat. Dog. Fish..... Alien." -Rampage
The only bad thing about this whole deal
Is that Coenen got cut :(
by TheMysticalNinja on Aug 4, 2011 12:46 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
JOE looked pretty good man, especially for such a thin HW division.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 12:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
it won’t be as thin if they fold the StrikeForce HW division. even w/out Fedor, Reem, and Allistar.
they still can get Barnett, Bigfoot, Cormier, Del Rosario, Lavar Johnson and Sergie (hopefully) all whom are better than JOE
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Aug 4, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s still pretty damn thin with SF, HW will always be the thinnest division. If you have a legit HW, he should be kept around IMO.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 1:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I dunno about all that.
Barnett’s a three time drug failure. he probably won’t even get an invitation. Sregei is a GG fighter. If this trend continues, he’s out. Del Rosario is still recovering from injury. he probably won’t get signed until he’s fully healed. Lavar is not necessarily better than Einemo. So that leaves Bigfoot and cormier as the only ones who most likely can come over and provide something better than Einemo.
by Grease S. Pieces on Aug 4, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
i would be surprised if Barnett doesn’t sign. (especially if he wins his next fight)
i think LaVar hits harder than PeeWee and although he doesn’t have JOEs skillset i tend to think he would have put Joe to ground as well. Del Rosario will get his first fight after recovery in the UFC if StrikeForce has been disolved at that point. (gut feeling) and i didn’t mention Werdum because that guy is a crap shoot, but he could easily be signed.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Aug 4, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Werdum will come too I’m sure, and Griggs is an exciting enough guy as well as Lavar…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 4, 2011 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Barnett is unlikely to ever be welcomed back to the UFC, Sergie will likely join the GG purge once he loses and Del Rosario’s recovery is still very much in question, is it not?
Bigfoot and Cormier would be excellent additions though, and I’d take either over anyone in the UFC’s HW class, possibly excepting JDS and Cain.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 4, 2011 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
hmm
just a brief comment on the philosophy that “hey, you might not agree with it, but they didn’t do anything illegal” train of thought.
i am a canadian lawyer. i cannot speak for american law, but if this happened in canada, there would be legal remedies you have. the torts of inducing breach of contract, intentional interference with economic interests and conspiracy all spring to mind.
since ufc is effectvely now a world wide professional mma monopoly (i know there are other promotions, but the test of whether a monopoly exists is not whether there is nothing else anywhere), i would think they would also potentially have anti-trust issues.
the point is this sort of behaviour is not 100% legal or illegal. the law is a moving target and if, say, marloes coenen walks into court in nevada and sues the UFC, i would not put her chances at being successful at 0%. i would roughly put them at 50%.
one of these days the UFC is going to run into trouble after they blackball someone, no matter what it says in their contracts. mark my words. i doubt it will be over this, but it’s coming, for sure.
i’d have to read the contract.
some of those economic torts might be a bit of a stretch. but the bottom line is that if you willfully try to hurt someone economically, even if you think you are doing it by legal means, you can get in a lot more trouble than you think.
if cutting a fighter was illegal i’m sure someone would have done something about it one of the other 1000 times it happened.
everyone says that
till one person goes into court and it works.
take for example all the legal arguments the NFLPA was making. no one ever made them before because, well, there were no need. shit hits the fan, you get into court, you realize, hey, maybe judges are actually receptive to this sort of thing.
or in europe, where the courts almost struck down the player transfer system.
trust me. you walk into court, having got fired because your boss was attempting to punish someone other than you, when your boss is the ONLY company in the world that does its thing at its level, you have a fighting chance.
it’s going to be very hard to do that when your contract says you can be cut after a loss and you lost your last fight.
Overeem appears to be a separate issue than the whining about these 3 fighters which is what set people more in a tizzy, and I’m sure there was language in the contract that allowed that also. Shit, they gave Mark Hunt a fight, they aren’t in the habit of breaking contracts to open themselves up to a lawsuit.
and if Matt Lindland could sue his way into the olympics I’m sure he could have sued his way back into the UFC if it was possible.
well i get your point
if someone walked into my office with this story i would tell them it was no sure thing but they had a fighting chance.
and if the ufc continues to behave in this way – driven by emotion, targetting people – then one day they will get smacked, whether it is by a rival promotion accusing them of “abuse of dominance” or by a fighter. there is a reason why the big professional sports things leagues don’t act like this.
Sports PAs had been threatening the NFLPA lawsuits since at least the early-90s
Not afraid to nitpick
Incorrect
Not really a well articulated article. Also, Overeem #3 in the world is COMEDY. Maybe he could be but we have no idea as he hasn’t fought anyone in the top ten. Based on the Werdum fight I’d have to go with definitely not a top 5 guy. The only thing I agree with is his release does seem vindictive; whether aimed at Overeem or his management. You suck.
Maybe he could be but we have no idea as he hasn’t fought anyone in the top ten. Based on the Werdum fight I’d have to go with definitely not a top 5 guy.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
by TheFilt on Aug 4, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Werdum is currently in the top 10
Mir’s also ranked in the top ten.
And he hasn’t beaten ANY top ten guys.
by Grease S. Pieces on Aug 4, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
He beat then #3 Werdum and wrecked then #8 Rogers and then #8 Cro Cop. Only Lesnar can claim more top-10 wins (since Cro Cop was an NC, so Overeem only has 2) at HW over the last 3 years.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 4, 2011 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
How come fans of UFC always defend Dana and the upper brass before they defend the sports competitors? Over at Sherdog is the worst. I’ve heard people say things like, “Well, that’s what they get for trying to get Zuffa to pay them more money! I would cut them too!” that line of reasoning just boggles my mind. When did this start?
When people realize the company’s firing of the fighter is normal is the real world.
by p123 on Aug 4, 2011 2:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Don't be an idiot.
Every single athlete in other sports has a manager and or agent who’s sole job is to negotiate the highest pay rate they can for their client. That’s the way things are done in legitimate sports. Is it because UFC may not be a legitimate sport that these things are not allowed to happen for anyone who fights under Zuffa?
they are allowed to happen and they happen all the time. Sometimes this happens though, just like NFL fighters get cut.
NFL players are cut from a team, not a league. If a top-3 guy at his position was cut there would be numerous other teams essentially equal to the one he came from trying to sign him.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Aug 4, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
The more dominant ZUFFA becomes
in the marketplace, the more this will happen
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
I am not a fan of the UFC logo, I am a MMA practitioner who loves the sport and want to see top fighters compete. The promotion they fight for is the less important for me.
by Carlos Estrada-Ibars Martínez on Aug 4, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
What a shocker
all this hate directed at Zuffa and it turns out it was GG demanding to be paid first and they’d pay their fighters. Once again, BE writers have jumped to conclusions blaming Zuffa and they were wrong. But whatever gets you page views right?
http://nohonestsleep.tumblr.com
http://penguinsfromthenorth.tumblr.com
http://www.scenepointblank.com
This is the Internet
Here they know everything. Here are the facts according to the Internet:
- Fedor is still #1
- Alistair is #2 behind him
- Women’s MMA is important
- Dana White is evil and only thinks of himself
- Smaller MMA promotions are not about money but are about honor and competition
- American MMA is more corrupt than Japan
by Hashmo on Aug 4, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
this has been mentioned as a possibility
in fact, I mentioned it earlier as well. where did you read it was confirmed as fact?
Mel Gibson shot the movie Apocalypto on location at the center of my taint.
-Fake Emcee
by Cory Braiterman on Aug 4, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
heavy.com are Zuffa shills
Heavy.com is owned or associated with Zuffa so it is not surprising that they offer a sympathetic view and portray the release of a Top 5 heavyweight and everyone from his gym as sound business.
Also Gary Bettman does not fly under the radar ask anyone in Canada (he was booed in Vancouver) but that might actually help his image

by 





















