What does it say about Georges St. Pierre that Chris Lytle was able to finish a tough Dan Hardy? Luke Thomas grapples with the implications at MMA Nation.
10 months ago
Nate Wilcox
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Oh damn
Luke throwing it out there.
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Head Kick Legend
I think GSP's risk averse approach to fighting directly effects his legacy
Which is apparently what’s important to him at present. Joe Calzaghe retired with a perfect record but he’ll never be revered like Roy Jones Jr. GSP’s lack of willingness to showcase combative brilliance to the best of his ability – especially when it becomes apparent from the first round he outmatches opponents like Hardy – leads me to believe history won’t look back on him as fondly as his current fanbase does now.
In short, no guts, no glory
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by KJ Gould on Aug 15, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I can’t say that it affects his legacy in everyone’s eyes but to me, GSP is not even close to Fedor or A. Silva in legacy for the exact reason you state. He didn’t fight to his capability because he was scared of losing.
If heavyweight isn't the toughest division in the UFC, then why doesn't someone that can kick their asses move to it? They don’t even have to cut weight!!
by crizzy on Aug 15, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It says that gsp is overrated and he will lose at ufc 137.
by J smooth 420 on Aug 15, 2011 3:01 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
dude youre suppose to say
“Florida waterfront property” it sells better.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Aug 15, 2011 4:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Like you can finish sentences.
"You are a miserable human being." - Mike Fagan
My twitter: @TB_Money
by Tim Burke on Aug 15, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 15 recs
Ouch. Good one.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't GSP say...
he didn’t finish the submissions because he’d have to break Hardy’s arm and didn’t needlessly hurt someone like that? I might be wrong but I thought he said something along these lines.
Not making excuses for him, just surprised it hasn’t been talked about.
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Nah, that's BS
He ripped on the ‘Kimura’ looking for a technical stoppage. His submission game has taken a backseat to his wrestling control which stems from being risk averse. No one wants to admit it, but he’s becoming like the Tim Sylvia of the Welterweight division.
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by KJ Gould on Aug 15, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
OK. Tim Sylvia? WOw. That's a stretch.
I will continue to watch GSP fight even if I knew he was going to decision his way towards victory.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
he ran out of twist on that from being out of position.
It would have helped if he pushed the wrist down as well.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Aug 15, 2011 4:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Was it too much space between his groin/hips and Hardy's body?
BOOSH
by Farthammer on Aug 15, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s been awhile but if I recall the he was more at 10 o’clock than up at 12 with his knees holding the shoulders and head so he couldn’t continue to twist. Also I have found instead of keeping the opponents ARM at a right angle its better to bring the wrist towards their own armpit while they are in the figure 4 hold.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Aug 15, 2011 6:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Someone needs to post the gif
I think what you are saying is a better way of what I was trying to say. GSP did the same thing to Hughes which allowed Hughes to roll out (but he caught HUghes in the armbar)
BOOSH
youre right.
I forgot about that.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Aug 16, 2011 1:12 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No one wants to admit it, but he's becoming like the Tim Sylvia of the Welterweight division
Nice.
"Kickboxing is great. It combines the style and grace of boxing with... kicking." -- Norm MacDonald
by Anthony Pace on Aug 15, 2011 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
It's crap like this that makes you look like such a MMA n00b
I hate ragging on longtime BE regulars, but that Sylvia remark is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read from one. Let’s look at GSP’s recent record, all of this post-Serra:
-Did more damage to Serra than he’s ever taken in a fight.
-Did way more damage to Fitch than he’s ever taken in a fight.
-Did way more damage to Penn than he’s ever taken in a fight.
-Did more damage to Alves than he’s ever taken in a fight, and is the only man to drop him (aside from Fitch’s upkick 5 years ago). Half of it was standup, despite GSP being able to take the safe round and just wrestle Alves.
-Did way more damage to Koscheck than he’s ever taken in a fight. All of it was standup, despite haters like yourself and Koscheck expecting the opposite. How is it fighting safe when a Koscheck bomb is the only way GSP could take any damage?
-Roughly matched Hendo in doing the most damage Shields has ever taken. With one eye. The “risky” ground game was avoided by Shields, not GSP.
So what’s your interpretation of this? Let’s ignore it all, focus on the ONE FIGHT that isn’t like the others (never mind that it was closer to a finish and not as bad as any of Silva’s three crappers that you have no problem ignoring). Furthermore, let’s extrapolate from that one fight and say GSP does no damage, is all wrestling based, and is the Tim Sylvia of the division.
Chew on this: There is only one WW who could exceed even a quarter of the the damage that GSP did against this schedule – Carlos Condit – and who knows how he’d fare against the defensive machines at the top (he’s already failed once against Shields). Just think of how little damage we’d have seen in title fights without him: Fitch-Alves, Koscheck-Daley, Fitch-Shields, plus matches with the Ellenberger/Story/Pierce/Hendricks/Foster/Brenneman crew.
That’s right. GSP is, in fact, among the most exciting WWs in the division, and it would be a wasteland without him. Apologies if your head explodes after that revelation.
by paythefighters on Aug 15, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I think I touched a nerve
My work here is done :)
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The buyrate for the last GSP event was somewhere around 800K. That’s over 3 times the buyrate of the last BJ Penn event by comparison. Obviously people find him exciting – Tim Sylvia he is not.
by captainStevo on Aug 15, 2011 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That's Canada for you
They’re not the party, they’re the apartment above the party.
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Berate Me on Twitter @KJGould
No. I don’t recall him saying that. He was trying to hurt Hardy.
That’s why you didn’t hear it discussed.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
So because you don't remember this,
it didn’t happen regardless of someone else recalling it as well. Right…
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by Chad Raynard on Aug 15, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
He said it wasn't discussed
He’s not just talking about his own opinion. He’s talking about everyone’s.
That includes GSP. At the post fight presser, GSP explicity said that he didn’t let up at all. In the fight you can see that he cranked the arm with the intention to rip some ligaments. It would have ruined my arm easily, and probably most of his training partners, which is why he never learned the corner cases of submitting a flexible guy.
by paythefighters on Aug 15, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Paythefighters response is far better than anything I could dream up.
But here’s my effort. GSP did not say anything alluding to not breaking his arm. I don’t recall it. GSP doesn’t recall. There are no interviews where he stated he wanted show Hardy mercy.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Well he also admitted to some technical flaws in his attempts as well. Story I heard was when he got back to the locker room he immediately started rolling to figure out what they were.
by Empty Thoughts on Aug 15, 2011 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
me thinks?
it means absolutely nothing. If I hit a home run off Verlander, does that make me a better hitter then Josh Hamilton if he does not? Scenarios and opportunities take place at different times in the fight. I would venture to say Chris is a better submission artist then GSP too.
BTW- is this some new MMA math?
by eckoltz on Aug 15, 2011 3:06 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
I guess. How are we supposed to rank fighters who haven’t fought without MMAmath?
Dan Hardy isn’t nearly as scary as we thought. GSP fought a very cautious fight with him and everyone else he’s fought since at least UFC 100. I have no doubt he is taking the path of least risk to hold the belt as long as possible. It’s not really disputable. If the Hardy fight were unusual it would be one thing, but that’s just how he does it against everyone. Koscheck had no chance. Shields had to gouge out an eyeball to steal a few rounds. He could be looking like Ben Henderson if he wanted to. He doesn’t want to.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
Who thought Hardy is scary?
I thought people gave him way more credit than was due for going to a decision against GSP. It’s not like he was great from striking distance, as he was 0 for 18 in strikes attempted. Zero. He didn’t take serious damage because GSP inexplicably decided to be a pure grappler for the only time in his career (AFAIK).
The only thing we got from that fight is that he has a high pain tolerance and/or is very flexible. Aside from that, all we knew is that he was able to weed out the pretenders like Swick and Davis.
by paythefighters on Aug 15, 2011 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Read the article . . .
Why does it matter if a fighter is risk averse? Absent any larger context it doesn’t, particularly if that fighter is winning.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Completely agree.
Lytle had highly integrated offensive submissions in his game just like GSP has fully integrated wrestling.
Sometimes fights end up in a situation that a fighter can exploit. Lytle’s been around a long time and automatically knows to go for the guillotine when shot on and how to cinch it up while sweaty and tired. GSP by comparison is finally trying to incorporate more offensive subs to help complement this wrestling game but is no where near complete integration.
by squaresphere on Aug 15, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It doesn't say anything
It says that a middle of the pack welterweight beat a guy who had no business being in the cage with GSP to start with.
Why not flip that question around and ask why Lytle ate so much leather en route to that submission while Georges took no damage at all from Dan.
by Worldisart on Aug 15, 2011 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Nah. Not applicable.
That’s Lytle game. He’ll take a shot to give a shot. He doesn’t care because he wants to excite fans.
GSP, like Floyd Mayweather Jr. doesn’t think that’s intelligent.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
doesnt have the power or chin for that "take one to give one" style.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Aug 15, 2011 4:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
fact
as proven by Serra
Yes, time flies. And where did it leave you? Old too soon...smart too late. - Mike Tyson
or the stupidity
Why should he? Aside from Hardy, he’s inflicted more damage on his last six opponents than anyone else has been able to, sometimes by an enormous margin. He’s not going to do any better with a wreckless style. Look at all the KO machines that Fitch, Shields and Koscheck beat with little damage.
Meanwhile, nobody can touch GSP. He’s the hardest guy to hit in the entire UFC. Aside from the Serra shot, when the occasional power shot does get through GSP doesn’t even flinch.
by paythefighters on Aug 15, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I agree but . . . Koscheck was KO’ed by Paulo Thiago.
I think Thiago Alves put a far worse hurting on Koscheck than GSP .. . Koscheck fought on short notice.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I still say GSP destroyed Koscheck more than Thiago or Alves. Alves dropped him once and just threw leg kicks after that, and I bet he couldn’t repeat the performance (Kos on short notice and mostly ignoring his wrestling at the time). Yeah, Thiago got the finish, but GSP’s damage was more extensive and just as worthy of stoppage.
Ask yourself this: Which fight did Koscheck walk away from in the worst condition?
by paythefighters on Aug 15, 2011 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, Thiago Alves vs Koscheck is definitely arguable because Koscheck fought on short notice.
Broken orbital bones looks like they suck. But still Paulo Thiago exploited Koscheck’s striking flaws and the referee saved him from further punishment.
GSP striking > Paulo Thiago
GSP striking >> Koscheck
But still.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Broken orbitals happen now and then, but what really showed the damage that GSP did was the fact that Koscheck was still suffering from nerve damage in his face five months after the fight.
Koscheck learned a big lesson from the Thiago fight. He threw a leaping jab while looking at the ground and leaving himself wide open. I never saw him do that again (at least not to that extent), and I don’t expect any champ below HW to ever face someone with that kind of flaw.
by paythefighters on Aug 16, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
bj had him dizzy.
I think his chin is average. It’s got to be iron to play that game.
I wasn’t saying anything bad about him. It’s just his attributes don’t make that an advantageous style for him. Why would you trade shots if you don’t have ko power? You don’t . It would mean you lose in the trade every time and your opponents could floor you. If you have a chin and right hand like Hendo , well then you make a career out that game plan.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Aug 15, 2011 6:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That’s a pretty crazy standard, though. Who hat a chin and right hand like Hendo?
Aside from the Hardy fight, I think a lot of so-called exciting fighters would fight like GSP does if they had his opponents, and if they didn’t, they’d lose and ironically wind up creating a less exciting fight. GSP doesn’t have some anti-takedown Jedi skills. His whole fighting style is a huge part of it.
by paythefighters on Aug 15, 2011 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
his wrestling is really awesome bud
Padawan levels at very least.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Aug 16, 2011 1:16 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
bj penn, leben, roy nelson, condit
Off the top of my head.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Aug 16, 2011 9:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
it means what we already knew
gsp opponents are hand picked to be slower and reach-handicapped and he still cant finish most of them … and now that brock is out of the picture dana doesnt want to lose his biggest championship fight ppv draw …
diaz cant even wrestle so we already know how that fight ends
i want to see gsp beat a rumble or condit type figther .. someone who is a bit longer and just as atheltic if not more atheletic
i stand by my claim – he is a overrated fighter who simply beats up on smaller figthers
This is easily one of the dumbest things I've ever read
He’s ducking the likes of Rumble and Condit? Stupid, neither of those guys has earned a title shot.
GSP is lauded for his strength of schedule, it’s one of the things that makes him an all time great.
As far as the size issue goes, GSP is not the huge WW you think he is. Shields was bigger than him, Fitch was bigger than him, Hardy was probably bigger than him. Your whole argument has ZERO basis in reality.
Notes on Size.
Thiago Alves can go past 200lbs. but he’s 5’9".
All of GSP recent opponents outside of Serra, Hughes and Penn are GSP’s height (5’10") or 6" tall.
Fitch = 6
Hughes and Penn = 5’9"
Serra = 5’6"
Koscheck = GSP’s height
Shields = Hardy = 6 feet
I believe GSP enjoys a reach advantage over all of the aforementioned past opponents. I think people make unnecessary noise about the LW, WW, and MW fighters size but it is what it is. BUT. let’s not say that any of his opponents are BIGGER than him because at 170lbs. they’re really not. Well, Fitch can fight at MW or LHW but he knows where his body is more effective.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the lay-pray thing is far-fetched, so is the overrated thing.
BUT.
I did compared the guys he finished compared to the fighters that he didn’t finish.
What does Matt Serra, BJ Penn, and Matt Hughes have in common compared to Fitch, Alves, Hardy and Koscheck?
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What do those guy he finished have in common?
Also, I’ve always had a problem saying gsp finished Penn. I know technically he did, but he just basically did what he’s been doing for the last 6 fights (playing it safe) but penn was just a realist and knew he wasn’t going to be able to win so he quit. knocked out or submitted he was not.
by Not Hauser on Aug 15, 2011 4:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I hear you.
I was just alluding to the height difference between those fighters.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Quite simple really
GSP does not prioritize finishing opponents. He wants to keep winning and playing it as safe as possible in the process. It amazes me how many fans he has despite this. If I kept all my fans while fighting safe every time, I would keep doing it too.
I am NOT saying GSP isn’t a great fighter, but he fights much too safe. Fights are far too often either a jabfest or lay and pray.
If heavyweight isn't the toughest division in the UFC, then why doesn't someone that can kick their asses move to it? They don’t even have to cut weight!!
Well let’s also look at the guys he’s fought, they’re partially culpable too right? Last three fights – Hardy couldn’t wrestle, Koscheck winged overhands, Shields fights at a glacial pace.
I understand there’s frustration that GSP isn’t wrecking fighters left, right and center like Anderson but if the UFC can’t even give GSP a fighter who can make GSP look like he’s even vaguely in trouble, whose fault is that?
by ihateemo on Aug 15, 2011 4:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t fault GSP for doing what he is doing one iota. He has one of the biggest followings in the UFC doing what he does so why would he need to change? He is racking up a heck of a legacy in process too. Why would you risk getting “Serra’ed” again? It makes no sense from his point of view. Losing could cost him millions in income and tarnish his legacy.
That said, I have become less excited to see GSP’s fights as a result of his fighting style. I am obviously in the minority though so I wouldn’t expect any fighter to cater to a minority and risk his well being in the process.
If heavyweight isn't the toughest division in the UFC, then why doesn't someone that can kick their asses move to it? They don’t even have to cut weight!!
You need to pay more attention to his opponents
They’re all defensive specialists (aside from Hardy) that generally end up in boring fights and take little damage.
We all pay attention to a fighter’s schedule when judging his fighting ability, so why don’t we do the same when judging how exciting he is? GSP making a Fitch fight that action packed is like Edgar beating BJ.
by paythefighters on Aug 15, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Josh Koscheck and Jake Shields are not defensive specialists.
Where did you get that from?
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
Quite simply because they don’t fight to win. They fight to survive a decision. That’s how Leites fought Silva, or Harris fought Falcao, or Hamill fought Rampage. It’s not always as obvious as Starnes-Quarry.
One fighter basically says, “fuck it, I’m not going to win, so I’ll just try not to look too bad during my 15 minutes of fame”.
by paythefighters on Aug 15, 2011 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait, I've been saying this since Condit KO'ed Hardy in the 1st round.
Let’s not act like GSP doesn’t have a nasty-quick-jab.
Luke went as far to illustrate what he was not saying with bullet points to make it clear for people like me that are horrible when it comes to clarity.
- Chris Lytle is a better fighter than Georges St. Pierre. (we know this)
- Georges St. Pierre should fight like Chris Lytle. (that won’t happen)
- Dan Hardy is an easy opponent to beat. (uhmmm, Rumble may beg to differ.)
- Georges St. Pierre needs to be reckless to finish opposition. (Obvious)
SO in conclusion, GSP is good, great but just like he said . . . “I’m not impressed with my performance. These guys are really tough.” Yeah, whatever. But I’ll end this with something that Anderson Silva said after his fight against Leites.
I felt I executed in the fight. I was unable to finish. Sometimes I’m able to finish guys and sometimes I’m not able to.
That basically sounds like GSP after his last couple of title defenses.
Off Topic:Oh yeah, he linked the emotional charged article concerning “purposeful offensive impotence” which I just don’t agree with. I know Silva didn’t want to fight the young Leites who didn’t deserve the title shot but there’s so many other things about that fight that I can defend.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
Defend the match up or why the fight turned out the way it did? If the latter, that’s easy – Leites didn’t show up to fight.
by ihateemo on Aug 15, 2011 3:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’ll keep it simple. That’s what Chuck Liddell said. I agree.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t read the article, but GSP had an arm bar and a limits whereas Lytle had a deep choke. Hardy probably has the pain threshold to withstand limb locks but didn’t fancy going to sleep again. My $0.02.
Oh sorry, I mean GSP SUCKS!!!!!!1
by ihateemo on Aug 15, 2011 3:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Fucking auto correct. Limits = kimura.
by ihateemo on Aug 15, 2011 3:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
an armlock will snap the arm in half if done properly.
Then the ref stops the fight. Gsp didn’t snap it because of bad technique.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Aug 15, 2011 6:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
People forget that GSP had him in subs where it was either he taps or breaks.
In this one Hardy was being chocked, no matter how long he held on he was starting to fade you can see his arms go limp for a second. The subs are different in their fights.
Yeah! Real n***a. ALL day! Just me. By myself. On the block. Holdin it down. Gun in my waist. Straight face. All day. Not a game. In jail. By myself. 1 bed. No pillow case. 1 pillow. You didn’t write me. It was early. Woke up. Went back to sleep. Took a nap. You ever go night night n***a? Everybody go night night n***a!
I think if you get kicked in the face you deserved it because that means you watched the foot come to your face.
If you out and some dude comes up and slaps you in the face while you with me? Than you just been slapped!
uhmmm . . . you're forgetting
- GSP had 5 rounds to complete his task.
- GSP wants to finish fights. He has said it several times.
- He had Hardy on the ground each and every round.
I really don’t think any technical discussion of jiu-jitsu applies here. GSP simply could not close the deal.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Hardy didn’t leave himself open with a gassed, lazy takedown like he did last night. I’m sure if he left his arms sticking out more often or just gave his neck up GSP would have wrung it.
Hardy’s not getting a fair shake here either. He said in his post fight interview on UFC.com that his heart wasn’t in it. Imagine the fire under him for a title fight – now imagine how you feel three straight losses later and two rounds down in your current one. He made a glaring error at the end of the Lytle fight. In the GSP fight he just got outgrappled.
by ihateemo on Aug 15, 2011 3:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
you're right he made a glaring error
He said in his post fight interview on UFC.com that his heart wasn’t in it.
That’s cool.
- So he lost to GSP by getting outgrappled.
- Carlos Condit blasts him unconsious. He states that he didn’t respect Condit’s ability.
- Rumble GSP’s him. Yeah Rumble did say he was going to stand and bang but decided to go for the easy win.
- He then asks for a fighter like Lytle, who will stand and bang, and swing for the fences. He fights a little technically cautiously and the wants to say his head wasn’t in it.
- Yeah, if Hardy, Daley or any of these strikers-strike-first-stand-and-bang-WAR-Rampage-guys go for a takedown like that . . . you’re right they are making a glaring error.
Did I miss something?
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Takedowns in and of themselves aren’t an error – the error was he was gassed, sloppy and left his neck wide open.
by ihateemo on Aug 15, 2011 4:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My point is that Hardy was put in a guillotine not a armbar or kimura.
Hardy probably had a high pain threshold for limblocks, but getting chocked im pretty sure he didnt like that seeing how fast he fucking tapped. If GSP put him in one he would tap.
Yeah! Real n***a. ALL day! Just me. By myself. On the block. Holdin it down. Gun in my waist. Straight face. All day. Not a game. In jail. By myself. 1 bed. No pillow case. 1 pillow. You didn’t write me. It was early. Woke up. Went back to sleep. Took a nap. You ever go night night n***a? Everybody go night night n***a!
I think if you get kicked in the face you deserved it because that means you watched the foot come to your face.
If you out and some dude comes up and slaps you in the face while you with me? Than you just been slapped!
The question is would GSP been able to get Hardy in that position?
Even if Hardy was attempting a weak takedown?
Yeah, I’m just talking crap even though I acknowledge that the situations were clearly different not to mention the submissions attempts are different in so many ways.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
didn’t Rumble have him in a choke? Its not like if you put him in a choke he taps, that was good one by lytle.
Maybe he tried an arm triangle against the cage (I was at that fight and that’s where most of the fight seemed to take place) but I wouldn’t rate Johnson’s submission game even close to Lytle. I don’t remember Hardy being in danger of anything but losing the decision, though.
by ihateemo on Aug 15, 2011 4:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That sounds strange. He didn’t mind getting his limbs painfully twisted and bent risking an injury, but tapped to a painless, rather safe choke?
"... All reined up in old language and old assumptions, straining to jump clean-hoofed on to a whole new track of being I only suspect is there. I can't see it, because my educated, average head is being held at the wrong angle..."
by dancingChicken on Aug 15, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude this a sport where people would rather risk major injury than tap like a bitch. Plus one was a title fight, this last fight he was dozing off anyway and just thought it better to exit gracefully.
Also, lol @ “safe choke”
by ihateemo on Aug 15, 2011 4:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Dude this a sport where people would rather risk major injury than tap like a bitch.
That still doesn’t explain the lack of logic in the comment I was replying to.
And I don’t know about you but to me passing away is safe in comparison to getting your arm broken (unless your braincells are exceptionally weak and die super fast).
"... All reined up in old language and old assumptions, straining to jump clean-hoofed on to a whole new track of being I only suspect is there. I can't see it, because my educated, average head is being held at the wrong angle..."
by dancingChicken on Aug 15, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I get what you’re saying.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Aug 15, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
why do people comment about jits when they know nothing about it?
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Aug 16, 2011 1:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Lytle AND Condit
Both finished Hardy. Just saying GSP…
Just Breed!
by ScoreCardOTN on Aug 15, 2011 4:17 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
It must be wonderful living in such a simple world!
by ihateemo on Aug 15, 2011 4:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It really is that simple. GSP has skills on top of his skills.
Condit and Lytle kept it simple given the opportunity without an intellectual explanation during the post-fight interview.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 15, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
One fight alone says nothing but if you look at the last few years and his body of work GSP is not taking any chances to finish a fight… period. GSP is one of the best fighters today, and he should be capable of finishing more fighters than he does. He chooses to fight to win, but not to finish. It really is smarter strategy. Less damage to the fighter’s body and lower likelihood of losing due to a fluke occurrence.
If heavyweight isn't the toughest division in the UFC, then why doesn't someone that can kick their asses move to it? They don’t even have to cut weight!!
Which hardy still tapped to
Lytle was able to make Hardy tap, GSP wasn’t.
Bloody Elbow Grappling Editor.
Berate Me on Twitter @KJGould
Hardy wasn’t fighting for a title and was in a tight choke two, two rounds down with less than two minutes left, was clearly gassed out and was about to be put to sleep for the second time in his career. That sums up my feelings on why he tapped. He never gave up against GSP but I think with a fourth loss about to be handed to him, he was mentally checked out once Lytle got a deep hold on his neck.
Just my theory anyway.
by ihateemo on Aug 15, 2011 8:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't know if it means anything, and GSP is still clearly the world's best 170 pounder, but
I’m always a little baffled by the violent reactions that you can elicit by just suggesting that GSP has lost some of his finishing edge.
GSP himself has said in interviews that he is more risk averse now than he was earlier in his career. He is talented enough that he knows he can keep the fight where he wants it, and he knows that he doesn’t have to throw himself fully behind subs and strikes to win. He’s still the best — maybe moreso now than ever — but he really does appear to have lost some of the killer instinct he displayed earlier in his career.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Aug 15, 2011 4:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It is what it is
and I can respect GSP for how he fights, he now has too much to lose. Ok check this out, EVO 2011 went down about a month or so ago (pro fighting video game tournament). The winner gets 10k. Players don’t fuck around. They pick their best fighters, most effective (by effective I mean cheap bullshit) strategies, and go for the kill. Now if they were at home playing with their friends from around the block with nothing up for grabs if they won besides brownie points, I’m sure they’d be more relaxed and pick player/teams just for fun, but shit changes when you have some serious coin on the line.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Aug 15, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec for evo/fighting game refference
if you go to youtube and watch videos by the cross counter guys you will see many of the top players in the fighting game scene hanging out in a living room playing matches against each other.
While the competitive play is still well above average, most guys are not using their best characters (or their “Main” characters) and are usually workshopping/practicing with their 2nd or 3rd tier characters.
When the stakes are big you go with the surest path to victory, I can’t hate on the ideology. It just sucks to see a clearly superior fighter let a guy hang with him for 25 mins when a little risk could put the guy away…or cost you your title/fame/money/legacy etc.
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
MMA is stepping on other people's dreams to reach your own.
- Roxanne Modafferi
by The Blackula on Aug 15, 2011 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
True
and yeah EVO players are the truth! I’ve been playing fighting games since forever, it’s my number one genre of gaming. I’ll play these games and I do really well against my local friends, but then I see these guys at tournaments do shit and pull off shit that I never would’ve known was possible. They seriously put in some crazy time in on these games.
I would love to see GSP go on a fucking tear and start finishing guys left and right, but who can convince him to stop playing safe?
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Aug 16, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
This is ridiculous.
Lytle finished Hardy with a choke, something GSP never attempted. If Lytle had finished Hardy with a kimura from a dominant position it would say more.
But these are 2 different submissions that have nothing in common and were not attempted together by either fighter.
And I might add that Lytle has better offensive submissions than GSP.
by Mantis xX on Aug 15, 2011 5:13 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
So the question is
Why didn’t GSP attempt a choke?
The fact is GSP was offensively ineffective which isn’t something to expect out of the best welterweight in the world and one of the pound for pound best.
Bloody Elbow Grappling Editor.
Berate Me on Twitter @KJGould
No the question is.
How did hardy not tap to one of the deepest kimuras in recent events? He didn’t attempt a choke because he was working limbs.
by Mantis xX on Aug 15, 2011 5:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
deepest kimura ? o.O
gps lacks technique thats why hardy didnt tap
Reply Fail; I said One of the deepest.
Also. I recall GSP saying he made a small mistake so he couldn’t "complete" it, but it was still pretty deep and 90% of fighters would have tapped. Presumably.
by Mantis xX on Aug 15, 2011 5:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My bjj instructor was watching the fight with me and right when he really started cranking my coach says...
“he won’t tap from that; he’s doing it wrong” he broke down why it would never work (I was drunk so I don’t remember) but I mention this to emphasize that it was the lack of technique and 90% of fighters would NOT tap to that…..because it was wrong. Presumably.
by Brandon Starr on Aug 15, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
i said one of the deepest.
Also. I recall GSP saying he made a small mistake so he couldn’t “complete” it, but it was still pretty deep and 90% of fighters would have tapped. Presumably.
by Mantis xX on Aug 15, 2011 5:42 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
ok…. but How many times did LYtle get lit up by Hardy and same with Condit, he didn’t get hit as bad…. meanwhile GSP left untouched and with a good cardio workout.
I’m not saying watching the GSP- Hardy fight wasn’t brutal, but GSP rarely gets touched. He only got hit in the Alves and Shields fights after his injuries and even then he was still fine.
I'm not even sure of the point of the article:
Is it to prove that GSP is risk averse? I don’t think that anything that happened in the Hardy/Lytle fight can prove that GSP is risk averse. There are just not enough similarities between the two fights. Simply having a different result against a common opponent isn’t nearly enough to make that connection.
Outside of that, it needs to be noted that GSP has a lot to lose, maybe more than anyone else in the combat sports world. So if he is a little risk averse it is understandable.
all that says about gsp is lytle has a better submission game than him
gsp couldn’t couldn’t lock in a choke like that because he will avoid being put on his back. he will not risk giving up a dominate position to work off his back.
You shouldn't pull guard for chokes anyway
The only time to do so is if you have a really nasty sweeping game and can get on top. Otherwise focus should be spent learning wrestling turnovers from the front head lock position or the offensive wrestling position.
Bloody Elbow Grappling Editor.
Berate Me on Twitter @KJGould
this is true
there were a number of guard based submission attacks gsp could of used, but gsp’s main priority for his guard is to immediately get back to his feet.
I am sure gsp has the ability to guillotine opponents, but the risk of ending up on his back is much too great for him to use that attack.
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
MMA is stepping on other people's dreams to reach your own.
- Roxanne Modafferi
by The Blackula on Aug 15, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Easy, GSP broke Hardy mentally. Before his fight with GSP, Hardy was one of the most cocky fighters, full of confidence in himself. After GSP burst his ego, his confidence level went to the crapper. There really is something to be said about having confidence and momentum going into fights in the UFC… look at Bader, undefeated going into his Jones fight, got destroyed, and then got beat by Tito. The Bader that Tito beat wasn’t the same as the one Jones did.
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