Watch Brandon Rios vs. Urbano Antillon Before Passing Judgement on Boxing
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 5:16 PM EDT
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Last Saturday was not a great day for boxing. There is, and probably always will be, something special about heavyweight fights at the highest level. But when Wladimir Klitschko and David Haye stepped into the ring, it was an absolute dud.
The thing is, it was also pretty easy to see coming. Wladimir's style has never been known for being exciting and anyone who watched Haye fight Nikolai Valuev had a good feel for what he did against much bigger men. The years of trash talk and hype promised more than what we got, but the history of both men should have prepared us for exactly what went down.
But reactions like those of Josh Nason, who wrote a piece that ran here on Bloody Elbow, baffle me. I could sit and argue the use of "finishes" as some sort of measure of fight "worth" or I could point at rising cruiserweight contender Ola Afolabi's crushing KO on the Klitschko/Haye undercard as the best KO of that day. But my stance has never been to participate in this phony "war" between MMA and boxing.
And this isn't a shot at Josh, it's more that his article summed up a lot of the thoughts from people that I just can't wrap my head around. Stuff like this:
Does boxing want fans? Where's the passion? I don't get it.
You don't need to me to sit here and tell you that MMA surpassed boxing years ago, but here's what you need to remember any time these charlatans attempt to sell you a boxing fight that "matters": July 2, 2011 -- a day when two sets of fighters with blood feuds went to war with one set actually remembering what they were supposed to do.
We should all be smart enough to not lump all of a sport in with an individual contest. After UFC 130, it would have been dumb to wonder if MMA cares about fans or lacks passion simply because Quinton Jackson and Matt Hamill plodded their way through three rounds. An event is not the sport.
It has become so cliche to fall back on the "I haven't cared about boxing since Gatti/Ward" line. Over the years since that trilogy the sport has seen the emergence of guys like Sergio Martinez, Manny Pacquiao's ascent to the top of the combat sports world, the first three fights between Israel Vazquez and Rafael Marquez, Bernard Hopkins becoming the oldest man to win a major world title and too many great fights to really count.
Boxing is also seeing the rise of many new, young stars who will answer the "who is going to take over after Mayweather and Pacquiao retire?" question.
Brandon Rios is all action from bell to bell. He steps into the ring ready to throw hands. His fight with Miguel Acosta in February of this year was everything that boxing can be at its best. This Saturday night he meets Urbano Antillon on Showtime to defend his WBA World Lightweight Championship. If Rios' reputation for action fights wasn't enough, Antillon is far from a slouch in that same department. In 2010, his war with Humberto Soto won fight of the year at Bad Left Hook.
And if you need some bad blood to get you interested, here's Rios talking about the fight:
Can you describe the personality clash between you and Antillon?
"We were supposed to fight a year ago and unfortunately I got cut in sparring. He was running around saying I didn't want to fight him and that I was chicken. He was just running his mouth and after awhile he just started to get to me. And then when this fight started he was doing it again, just running his mouth and talking all kinds of smack. At the press conference he mentioned my wife. Fighters shouldn't bring families into it.
These two men are going to go to battle on a night unopposed by MMA. If you have the slightest interest in boxing, you owe it to yourself to watch this fight rather than passing judgement on the entire sport based on a predictably bad heavyweight fight. Well over a million homes will be tuned in to watch this tremendous fight, you really should join in.
It's easy to fall back on uninformed statements and cliches. In the end, if you don't like boxing, don't watch boxing. You don't need to pretend that a single fight carried the weight of the entire sport on its shoulders when there are much better fights happening constantly around the world.
I'll turn to Anthony Pace's closing to his excellent fanshot on the boxing/MMA situation for the final words:
I'm not telling you need to be a boxing fan. I'm just telling you that if you think boxing hasn't been good since Tyson or De La Hoya, you just don't what you're talking about. This "war" is a fiction I don't really understand. I love MMA for the diversity of skills on display, the "anything can happen" aspect. But I also love boxing for the drama inherent to the sport, drama that will never go away. One doesn't need to crowd the other out, and if you think so, you deserve to be rabbit punched by the Executioner.
Amen, Anthony.
For more on the fight between Rios and Antillon, check out Bad Left Hook's event coverage page.
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How many times have we seen multi-million dollar purse fights
End up as complete duds? It’s become too much of an occurrence to just be thought of as a abnormality in marquee fights. I don’t care if fights go the distance as long as both guys still go for it and I just don’t see that in championship boxing where there’s no longer hunger for glory but another exorbitant pay check. I’m not going to make the argument keeping purses low is what makes fighters fight harder like we sometimes see out of UFC apologists, but when two guys are making SO much money you tend to see them phone it and collect their winnings. Boxing in recent years has left me feeling ripped off the majority of the time, MMA hasn’t. MMA over all just has more passion than Boxing at the championship level.
by KJ Gould on Jul 6, 2011 5:09 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
It depends
Hopkins vs Pascal II was great. Their first fight was pretty good, too. Bute vs Adrade I and II were both awesome. So was nearly every fight in the super 6 tournament. Which is basically a round robin of champions.
Just 5-7 years ago we saw Taylor, Hopkins, Jones, Tarver, Calzaghe on top of their games at the same time.
The new crop of young champions fight like they did in the 70’s. These guys come out to prove they are the best and toughest fighter every night.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
this fight is gonna be better than all mma fights
while this fight wont have much defense, you will still see world class striking, the thing with mma that really bothers me is the striking defense is terrible, quit watching pacquiao fights if you dont wanna see duds, and i know the klitch vs haye was a let down, but thats how klitch’s fight, and if you think mayweather is boring, you must like non stop action because mayweather is what boxing is at its purist-hit and not get hit. boxing, in the case of great fights, has been killing mma this year so far, i feel the way about mma that you feel about boxing, i dont think brawling with no technique equals passion, i love mma, dont get me wrong, but most fighters are c level at best at striking, and i dont think the ground game gets its due in mma, i mean they stand up everyone, mma is made for stand up if you dont finish the fight on the ground in 1 minute, the concept is great, closest thing to a real fight but for the most part it’s guys of many traits (that they’re not really great at), master of none, and some guys are exceptions, im not talking about every mma fighter just about 90% of them
How many times? I don’t know? But I’d go ahead and say we see guys “go for it” far more often than not.
I think it’s an absurd statement that MMA has “more passion” and it’s based more on a lack of understanding than anything.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Read Faber’s interview on the front page here at BE about how he needs to start point fighting more to win over the judges and tell me about MMA’s “passion”
whats so passionate about mma??
like i said above, brawling with no technique is not passion, its luck
No technique? It’s luck? I am either confused or you are uninformed. Any man who fights for a living in a ring or cage has passion and heart. To say otherwise is fucking obtuse.
and your saying boxing doesnt have that at championship level
so your uninformed
Brent, I appreciate your continued effort encouraging MMA fans to watch more boxing. I really enjoy your analysis, the Bernard Hopkins piece especially. I really hope more Bloody Elbow regulars will check out Bad Left Hook, because I really believe its the best boxing site out there to keep you informed about the going-ons of the sport.
by DodgerFan86 on Jul 6, 2011 5:26 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I agree that the feud between boxing and MMA is silly.
They both have very legitimate places in the world of combat sports. And just because it’s in the title, it’s spelled ‘judgment’ not ‘judgement’.
"Before I do anything I ask myself, "Would an idiot do that?" And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." - Dwight Schrute
It wasn't the fight that pissed me off ...
… it was just the whole production. The whole thing felt like… a circus?
some quick thoughts:
- Larry Merchant is painful to listen to. I appreciate what the old man has done but it’s time for someone a little younger. Lampley is just… UGH
- I hate the way they allow fighters to sit around in the locker room while we wait for them to come out with they’re ready. I appreciate the way the “UFC show” is bigger than the fighters. They don’t allow “empty” space on the broadcast where some asshole fighter feeds his ego by taking his time. Haye is guilty of this and Mayweather is extremely guilty of this.
- I don’t think HBO bothered to show any undercard so I can’t really comment on that…
The production was awesome. That intro was the best part of the fight. Germans know how to produce an event, they did everything could.
Larry Merchant sounded awfully cranky that night, I’ll give you that. I’m starting to prefer Max Kellerman, who seems to be his heir apparent. I still like Jim Lampley.
I love the ‘taking time" thing. It’s a gamesmanship trick as old as sports.
The undercard thing was more because of the time of day of the broadcast than anything.
I will agree that the broadcast crew is pretty horrible.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Classic example of “taking time” is Vitor Belfort prior to the first fight with Randy Couture – he came out of the dressing room about 10 minutes late.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Its called gamesmanship, something the younger MMA crowd, with their upbringing of everyone getting a medal and bro hugging it out after every single fight, has no idea about. If they had seen Barrera throwing a water bottle at Morales and holding up 2 fingers saying “Thats two!”, they might have died of cardiac arrest at the horrible unsportsmanship of it all. Now get off my lawn dammit.
by Hutchy on Jul 6, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is my favorite post anywhere today.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I love getting on BE when somebody like Bisping nails Rivera dead in the sack and doesnt proceed to bro hug it out for 20 minutes afterwards, seeing these 22 year olds who have never watched a minute of boxing in their lives nearly have a stroke at the unfairness of it all LOL “I think……(looks around confused)….did he do that…….INTENTIONALLY?!?! Do people do that?!?! I thought we were all just here for the purity of athletic competition!! How CRUDE!!”
You know what’s really funny about it? They’re thinking that while watching a sport that gave birth to Tank Abbott.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
“They don’t allow "empty" space on the broadcast where some asshole fighter feeds his ego by taking his time.”
Yeah, they fill it with interviews with the dude that stars in the Conan remake.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
"Boxing is dead" arguments are asinine
I never really got the whole point of it. While I do think MMA is a bigger driving force in terms of fight entertainment; it has to be said that boxing carry much better media coverage, TV rights worldwide,…Until MMA reaches the viewer numbers of boxing I can hardly but ridicule such people.
I’m not the biggest biggest watcher but I do love watching Pacman, Canelo, Martinez, Mayweather, Khan fight.
This should be an entertaining fight, even if I think Antillion is going to get beaten half to death by a much better fighter in Rios. As far as the whole “MMA is more exciting than boxing” meme goes, well, whatever. There’s some great boxing matches that have occurred outside the view of people who aren’t boxing fans and the same goes for MMA. Obviously us being here more people can point to fights like Ben Henderson/Donald Cerrone as pointed examples of great MMA fights, but next to no one watched those fights when they happened and they barely care about them now. A lot of the recent high profile MMA contests have either been tremendously one sided and/or “boring” to a lot of viewers (Belfort/Silva, GSP’s last few fights, Rampage/Hammill, Machida, and Rashad Evans, Jones/Shogun, etc etc etc). It comes down to whatever you’re willing to accept and your fandom of that sport.
Couldn't understand
the hype for that fight when the only exiting fights Wlad has ever been in are the ones he was knocked out in.
by Mandmeisterx on Jul 6, 2011 5:39 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Sometimes I see boring MMA matches sometimes I see exciting matches. Same goes for boxing.
I feel I would missing out on some amazing combat action if I chose to disown one of these sports because one hyped up boxing fight or one hyped up MMA fight turned me away from the entire sport.
Both sports complement each other very nicely and both can be very exciting and memorable. Is that not why were here?
You’ve summed up my thoughts on the matter well. Whats wrong with simply liking fights and not discriminating based on ruleset? A good fight is a good fight is a good fight. There are plenty of duds in MMA too. Overeem vs Werdum for example was suppose to be this epic battle of heavyweights and we got Werdum flopping on his back.
First of all, boxing isnt dead. It is thriving everywhere in the world and far outstrips the popularity of MMA outside the U.S. However, boxing IS in a weak state in the Unites States, there is no denying it. The one thing that seems absurd to me is the comparison of the action in boxing to the action in MMA. Dont get me wrong, I love MMA and its varied aspects. However, the truth is, 75% of the fights suck. They may suck in an interesting way, but they suck nonetheless. UFC has tried to brainwash fans for years into believing that one sided blowouts are great fights. Tyson-Michael Spinks was interesting, historic, significant…..but no one in their right mind would call it even a mediocre fight. Yet blowouts like Anderson Silva-Rich Franklin I are supposed to be in the UFC top ten all time of fights? Its absurd. It can be traced to one factor: lack of a knockdown 10 count. Look at all the classic fights in recent UFC history, and you will find a common theme: a ref who let the action go and didnt jump in like a jackass the first time someone got hurt.
Regardless of the quality of the two events
Haye/Litschko was a huge even watched around the world by tens of millions in multiple countries. And it was somehow eclipsed by an mma event watched by a few hundred thousand people and the sign of MMA eclipsing boxing? Okay?
It wasn’t even worse than a lot of Klitschkos other fights. I don’t like to watch the guy fight, but the hometown crowd obviously is fine with his performances or else they wouldn’t keep packing arenas/stadiums to watch him jab and grab.
Years From Now July 2nd 2011 May Be Considered The Day The First Nail in Boxing's Coffin Was Laid
After the Haye/Klitschko fight, I asked whether or not a big UFC even later that night could have a lasting and dooming effect on boxing. Of course, I was ripped apart. Accusing me of both MMA and US bias were the main responses to the question. Most felt I was seeing this as an American MMA fan, not taking into account the rabid and large fanbase across the globe. By July 3rd, there was an article on SI.com pronouncing UFC’s dominance on the night.
For me I think the night will have big ripple effects in the future. The Haye/Klitschko fight was a microcosm of championship boxing. Poor refereeing, little action, amateurish tactics and no star power. I recognize that there are great and exciting champions in the sport, but they are nowhere near the forefront of the sport. This was a fight that was supposed to be a turning point, or at least had more potential than any previous fight for several years. It delivered zilch. David Haye was delegated to a punchline, and Klitschko continued to alienate a public desperate for a Heavyweight champ who had the proper muscles in his face to express joy and charisma. Boxing has failed completely in creating new stars, largely in part to the watered down championships.
I know that despite the downward trend we’ve seen from boxing in the US, that it is alive and well in Europe and Asia. I have personal experience dealing with the kickboxing side of things in Europe, and know how popular the two sports are. The catch is, boxing is largely supported by the coverage of networks like HBO and Showtime. For arguments sake, lets say its 2016. Boxing has continued to trend downward, and the last stars have began to fade. How long does HBO and Showtime keep handing out money to a product that has lost its luster in it’s biggest market? What happens if boxing were to lose HBO and Showtime? I may very well be wrong, but that has to have a large effect on the sport across the world.
I love boxing, holding dear my memories of the Bowe vs. Holyfield fights
by GogoPlatter on Jul 6, 2011 5:47 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The day boxing’s coffin was laid………..until Mayweather/Ortiz does 1.4 million buys. So boxing will be dead for……another 3 months, I guess
Seriously, the 3 fights from Mayweather and Pacquiao will probably combine for over 4 million buys. What was their total buy rate for last year?
I’m sorry I meant for UFC. What I’m wondering is if the combined buy rate from the 3 Mayweather and Pacquiao fights this year could surpass the UFC’s total buy rate for the year.
It could be a lot lower this year. They might not have another 1 million plus event the rest of the year other then GSP-Diaz.
No doubt it will be lower this year with no Brock Lesnar fights, but it will still top boxing, probably by a wide margin too.
Last year, boxing had the first, second, and seventh biggest PPV buyrates, each of them headlined by either Pacquiao or PBF, but the next biggest after that was Shane Moseley vs. Sergio Mora at 150,000 buys. This puts it below every UFC PPV and even the WEC PPV. You can find the numbers here. With Hayes vs. Klitschko done, there are only two major draws left in boxing and then it basically drops off a cliff. Currently you have Pacquiao and Mayweather, who can each draw over a million PPVs against inferior opponents, and then you have virtually no one left after that. I have a feeling that if Hayes vs. Klitschko had been on U.S. PPV in live in primetime it would have done a really good number but that fight’s not there anymore.
The problem with boxing isn’t the fights or the fighters, it’s the way it’s promoted. Obviously with so many different major boxing promoters, putting on the best fights is a lot more difficult than it is in MMA where Zuffa has a near-monopoly. Still, boxing in general does a very poor job of building up new prospects and talents on their undercard. This is a lesson that some boxing promoters are only just learning very recently, and some still haven’t learned it at all. And I think the mess of alphabet soup titles speaks for itself. They have 17 weight divisions, and except for Heavyweight, every single one of them has between four and seven champions, representing four different sanctioning bodies and The Ring Magazine. It’s little wonder that except for at Heavyweight, titles on there own mean basically nothing to casual fans.
Boxing is hardly dying, but from the way it’s promoted and the way sanctioning bodies operate I can understand why some people might get that false impression.
"Klitschko continued to alienate a public desperate for a Heavyweight champ who had the proper muscles in his face to express joy and charisma"
What makes you so sure the public is against Wlad? The guy packs houses and soccer stadiums. Has for a long time. You think people were surprised by how he was fighting on Saturday?
Wlad is a huge TV and live gate draw in Europe. YOU say you saw a boring/actionless performance but many many Germans would tell you they saw a “technical and dominating” performance.
I Got Someone Else Who The Germans Loved
Bet you thought it was gonna be the other guy right? All kidding aside, I completely agree with everything you said. Post-Klitschko, then what? I’ll be honest when I say I don’t know the true history of boxing in places like Germany, but is it at a all-time high with Klitschko? Because if that’s a case, isn’t that a problem for the future?
As long as I’ve been watching boxing, its always “Well, after _______, then who will be a star?” And then there is always a star. 5 years ago that was said about Oscar De La Hoya. 10 years ago that was said about Mike Tyson.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
They packed an arena for a two round fight with a mandatory challanger in Ray Austin
Think Wlads next fight will do all right
If Tomask Adamek can somehow knock off Vitali, your going to see a star in Europe like you have barely ever seen before.
You can put Adamek in Chicago and he’ll kill it with the Polish population there as well. He could be a huge star if he beats Vitali.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Golota wasnt even good and was a huge star. As an aside, Bowe/Golota II is still one of the most…….I dont even know what the word is……….memorable, devastating, emotional things I’ve ever seen in sports. Ever. The best and worst of sport all in one night.
It was awful and captivating all at the same time. It truly cant be put into words. Golota having the fight won and melting down, seeing Bowe get beaten into retardation, literally, in the space of one fight, but at the same time having so much heart that he simply wont stay down, making a big comeback to rock Golota……..its almost too hard to watch.
the courage to the point of stupidity shown by Bowe in that fight has never been duplicated, before or since.
I was thinking more of George Foreman begging someone who was about to wail over Larry Merchant’s head with a chair to not do anything rash. While a race riot broke out. And Lou Duva had a heart attack.
That was a thing that happened.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Bowe was so much better than most people remember
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Bowe’s problem is that he got lazy and then when he decided to stop being lazy, he was already brain damaged. That and he was afraid of Lennox. And he fought a lot of guys who historically are seen as being weak.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Larry Holmes cleaned house twice over. Bowe held a press conference to throw a belt in a trash can so he wouldn’t have a fight the guy who whooped his ass in the Olympics and who’d go on to be considered the best heavyweight of his generation.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not a Holmes fan
I just remember him being fat and lazy while fighting a bunch of cans. But that was after his first run. He did clean house the first time. The second time, he kinda swept up the driveway. :)
I don’t remember much about Bowe. I remember his fights with Holyfield though.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Holmes had some incredible, incredible fights during his run. He and Ken Norton was a war. Same with Shavers. Obviously he had weak competition to face, but I’d argue that the guys he did fight were in large part as good as most anyone Klitschko has faced and beaten – I know I’d pick Renaldo Snipes to decimate the likes of Eddie Chambers or Ray Austin.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
The HW field has been garbage for 15 years
or better.
Lennox vs Vitali was the last great match up I remember.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
And it was a last minute replacement fight. That was originally supposed to be Lewis/Kirk Johnson. Only the aftermath really made it as big as it was. Matter of fact, the next really interesting heavyweight contest to me was also a similar sort of late replacement showing – Klitschko/Chagaev.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
He wasnt retarded before Golota got him in the rematch, thats the scary part. His prefight interviews he was clear as day, his postfight interviews sounded like he was chewing 10 pounds of creamed corn. And he never recovered, ever. Scary stuff.
Maybe he wasn’t severely damaged yet, but who knows how close he was. End result is that he ended up broken mentally and that led to all the bad stuff that happened after. But historically, he’s the guy that fought the wrong British heavyweight champion and chose to fight the Cuban with the funny hair cut and the Polak that bit the dude instead of the best comtemporary competition (Holyfield withstanding).
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I Got Someone Else Who The Germans Loved
Bet you thought it was gonna be the other guy right? All kidding aside, I completely agree with everything you said. Post-Klitschko, then what? I’ll be honest when I say I don’t know the true history of boxing in places like Germany, but is it at a all-time high with Klitschko? Because if that’s a case, isn’t that a problem for the future?
Didnt mean to post yet sorry
and watching Foreman knock out Morrer still ranks in my top 3 sport viewing moments of all-time. The fact of the matter is that the UFC has capatilized where boxing has failed. They continue to create stars, as evidenced by the Cruz vs. Faber fight later that night. The show itself was the antithesis of its boxing predecessor. It was a night full of action, ending with the crescendo of hard fought, fast paced, hard hitting combat featuring two of the young bright stars in the sport. I won’t begin to get into the fact that MMA also has COMPLETELY changed the way the undercard in combat sports is perceived. In a world where people want more and better, each and every day, the UFC is king in terms of the amount they’re able to offer their fans. They are able to take value out of each and every fight they promote, again something boxing fails to do.
Boxing will never die persay. But its day in the sun as the premiere combat sport in the world has seriously waned. As the UFC continues to make in roads into Europe and Asia, boxing may never be closer to feeling the cold breath of their sister sport on their shoulder.
Did Faber/Cruz II really create a star? There’s no buyrate and the live gate is merely average for a mediocre Vegas card. As good as the moments were during that fight, I don’t think Faber or Cruz made any new fans as a result of it.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I can guarantee a hell of a lot of more people know who they are now. The two of them were featured on the front page of ESPN.com all day on Saturday, neither Klitschko or Haye were feature once (sans the sidebar). That has to be considered a relative big deal in comparison, no? I suppose it’s what you think a star really is. I don’t think Cruz will be on the View anytime soon, but I think he got a shit ton of great publicity. I suppose I’m basing a bit much on media coverage, but that’s what makes stars.
Maybe they do. MMA is a pretty insular thing in so far as the fan interest goes and it doesn’t even seem to do that well in generating interest outside of Spike TV. I don’t think he generally moves the needle. Haven’t seen any reason to believe he does either.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
you think that UFC did a good job of creating a "star" in Cruz
while the promotors for Haye/Klitschko had entrances with celebrity cameos, minutes of firesworks, special effects, and paid extras. I would say they made the boxers look like a lot bigger stars.
The Haye/Klitschko even was also watched by tens of millions more people.
You really think Cruz is a star in combat sports?
You thought Foreman knocking out Morrer was a great moment? Did you see Pascal-Hopkins II? There were no knockdowns but it was a far more impressive performance.
Has more personal meaning than anything. I was 8 at the time, and just the whole story behind it fascinated me. Plus my father was a big Foreman fan.
Given that ratings numbers are up significantly over the past few years and there are young Mexican stars like Saul Alvarez and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. (even if JCC jr. isn’t all that good he is a HUGE draw), young Mexican-American stars like Rios and Victor Ortiz, Mercito Gesta may carry the flag for the Philippines,
Up and coming guys like Diego Magdaleno, Jose Benavidez (who BLH calls the best prospect in all of boxing)…etc. These are all exciting fighters who are going to carry the sport as it moves forward.
I mean, there’s nothing in the ratings current events are doing that suggest any sort of “losing” HBO or Showtime.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s something I honestly didn’t really take into account. The drawing power of Latin American fighters, specifically Mexican, is huge. With the growing Latino population in the US, they are a force to be reckoned with. At the same time, aren’t we seeing the same thing in MMA with guys like Cain, Alvarez and Munoz? Granted a smaller scale, but I’m at a loss to remember the emerging Latin American stars. Also, how much are we taking into consideration the sheer growth in population? Would the same grown in popularity occur with MMA?
The latin fanbase is about as interested in watching MMA as they are buying onion flavored gum. There’s no social background for it, no appreciable grassroots in any of the latin countries, etc etc etc. In time, could they? Sure. But until you start seeing BJJ trainers move to latin countries and be willing to take a huge pay cut versus training fighters in the US, its barely even a fringe sport there.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
This is true in a lot of ways. I mean, there are small PPV’s featuring Latino fighters which do good business because of how much passion there is for these fighters in that market.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The latino population will never accept MMA on a large scale, never. Dont buy the UFC hype train on that. The first time the fight goes to the ground, your going to hear boos the likes of which you have never heard
But they did a UFC show on Televisa one time 2 years ago and claimed the entire nation of Mexico watched a random fight. Dana would never lie!
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Mistake on my part. The Rios fight is on Showtime, not HBO. Got tripped up talking Wlad/Haye. Apologies all.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 5:54 PM EDT reply actions
Would've ended up seeing Williams instead.
“Rios is a bit…darker than I expected.”
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 6, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I say too early to tell.
He has been hurt and put down, I think that’s a good thing early in a boxers career. Beating the fighters he is suppose to beat and IMO July 30th will be his first real challenge.
Yep
Remember when Julio Garcia looked like a world champ. 25 fights in we find out he hates being punched.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
At least Lacy made it there a second
Julio just folded up and lost 4 straight without ever getting past Tuesday night fights.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Joe will be rated where he belongs given that he only beat one really quality fighter in their prime. If he wanted to be more loved, he should have fought Roy Jones 5-6 years before he actually did.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve never watched Cave fight. So I couldn’t give an honest opinion.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
to be honest boxing is just plain better than mma
it is an art that most of the kids dont appreciate, most people think lil wayne is better than rakim, which is not true. most of these mma guys are just swinging hoping to get lucky, i cant remember the last time i saw an exciting mma fight and i watch all the ufc and strikeforce, i know thats not all of mma but its the only ones worth watching, most are one sided because the other guy has no defense, i guess the cliche that “defense wins championships” is bs to mma guys, in mma most guys have no footwork, headmovement, technique, etc, its just not exctiting to me seeing guys get lucky shots
Better at what?
Punching? You take a UFC champ (key word) and put him in a boxing ring with a champ and I’ll say the majority of the time they can do enough to cover up and survive several rounds. You take a Boxing champ and put them in the UFC against a champ, I’d say they get finished in 1 round the majority of the time. Even against GSP and Frankie Edgar.
by KJ Gould on Jul 6, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Both sides would finish the other in under 5 minutes of action, easily. Theres no comparison between the disciplines. Totally non competitive in each other’s arena.
I can see UFC champs lasting more than 5 minutes
Not saying they’d win, but I’m saying they can cover up and stall. Can’t say the same of a Boxing champ in the Octagon in my opinion.
Its checkers and chess
Its like saying a local brown belt can last with an ADCC champ. Maybe so, but 9/10 times it would end ugly, quickly.
Jake Shields vs Marcelo is a good example of a great MMA fighter vs elite one-sport champion.
GSP wouldn’t last 1 round against Froch, if Carl wouldn’t him out of there. You can only over up so much before you just go down.
If it was that easy to hang with world champ, they would have inked a big money deal boxing instead of MMA fighting.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
no more drunk posting for me
if Carl wanted him out of there. You can only cover up so much before you just go down.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
well no shit
im not saying who can beat who, 9 out of 10 times the mma guy is gonna win, im just saying in skills overall, a boxer is better and most fighters dont win by luck, they earn it, most mma guys are men of many traits (white belts like you and i) and master of none, and i said most
surprise surprise
boxers are more skilled at boxing.
I was one of the authors of the Port Huron Statement.
There's no way an UFC champ could last against boxing a champ
A world champion boxer would confuse and overwhelm any non-professional boxer. Quickly.
Much in the same way the Marcelo destroyed Jake Shields.
The level of understanding Floyd Mayweather has is vastly superior to Jose Aldo’s boxing coach. Jose would not even know how to approach Floyd. On the other hand, Floyd can adjust mid-fight against all time greats.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Of course the converse is true as well
No boxer could last against any UFC fighter.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Under boxing rules, the boxer wins almost every time.
Under any other combat sports rules, I’d wager the MMA fighter wins.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 6, 2011 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions
"or have we forgot the words of the reverened king"
micheal scott
i dont have a side in the mma/boxing debate
But I became a combat sports fan by getting hooked on TUF 5 and UFC 70, so MMA was my first and only love. Other combat sports are interesting, but I find them painfully boring to watch when I am used to a sport with far fewer restrictions in terms of skillset. I don’t think boxing is getting worse, I just didn’t like it to begin with, and I think that may be true of a lot of other fans.
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
by sitnam90 on Jul 6, 2011 6:04 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
MMA has a wider skill set on display. Boxing has the ability to get knocked down and continue, and longer fights allowing for more swings in momentum. Thats why both are awesome in their own way.
wider skillset??
it has more disciplines but most guys lack the skill in them, is a guy with 4 associate degrees in different fields smarter than a guy with a phd in one field??
Your really hating here
The skill level in mma is rising. Of course the guys won’t be experts at everything, they have a lot more aspects to work on. But mma fighters have been steadily increasing their skillsets and most good fighters tend to gain expertise in atleast one facet of the game.
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
by sitnam90 on Jul 6, 2011 6:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i see what your saying
But being able to get knocked down and not get your ass jumped on is one of the reasons I don’t like watching boxing. If a fighter can survive a KD on his own power (Frankie Edgar, Brock Lesnar) then he has earned the right to survive. I think a lot of tko stoppages are due to reffing. Kos/Thiago was a stoppage that could of gone on for instance. As reffing gets better I hope we will get to see more comebacks like the above.
Not hating on boxing, don’t get me wrong. I just ain’t a fan of the sport for the above reasons.
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
by sitnam90 on Jul 6, 2011 6:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Boxing needs their own version of UFC, its what will bring them back to the glory days
they just need to bring the best guys under one roof somehow. whether thats possible or not is something for smarter men than me.
by justsomehawkeyefan on Jul 6, 2011 6:09 PM EDT reply actions
Boxing promotes their non-PPV events so poorly
And maybe they figure they’re only going to have top fights on PPV.
So close and yet so far. The story of my sports fandom.
phony “war”
It certainly isn’t a war, but the battle isn’t phony. When you have guys like Bob Arum inferring that those who watch MMA are closet homosexuals while the mma guys scream that boxing is dead, I don’t see it as phony.
You know what happens when Bob Arum says stuff like that? People talk about Bob Arum, his fighters and upcoming fights. I think it’s as much a promotional move than anything legitimate.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
this is true
but it had the opposite effect on me. I am a boxing fan. I am an MMA fan. But it is comments like that which have alienated me from the sport. I no longer purchase boxing PPVs. I will watch on HBO, Showtime and ESPN, but I won’t spend an extra nickel to watch it.
That’s fair, and that’s the risk that a guy runs doing it I mean, I hated Arum’s skinhead comments. The guy is an idiot. But hey…people got to talking.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
And then Dana White cuts a deal with Arum over promoting during Pacquiao/Margarito. Maybe no one told you, but promoters are all lying all the time.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
eh the only boxing i want to see is mayweather vs manny
till then boxing is dead , Cant wait for all the mma events.
gtfo
ps who do you think will win that fight??
Predictions that start with "if so and so can do this and that then..." are always bullshit.
Man up. Pick a side.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 6, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
that has been everyone's heart for a while
but everyone always fails
Haha yess!!
Floyd by biggest mismatch in boxing history!! 12 rounds UD easily!!
A 40 year old Shane Mosley rocked Floyd hard,
pretty sure Manny Pacquiao could hit Pretty Boy hard and often. Floyd would’ve made the fight happen by now if he disagreed with my opinion.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jul 6, 2011 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
In the first round
The entire rest of the fight wash a shut out.
Manny didn’t even light Shane up himself, I highly doubt he could tag a very defensive Mayweather more than a few times. Mayweather has never even hit the canvas.
You do realize that Manny has ducked his fair share of fights, too? Why do you think he just now fought Mosley?
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
When has Manny
ever ducked a fight as sought after as the Mayweather fight, though? Sure, he may not have fought Paul Williams, but who was clamoring for that matchup anyways?
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jul 7, 2011 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't talking about Williams
Who is way too big to fight Manny anyway.
Mosley wanted to fight Manny a couple weight classes ago, back when Shane was still a world beater. Margarito didn’t get the fight until he got he lost to Shane.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Crazy as it is
I knew quite a few people who were bitching about Pacman not fighting Williams.
Didn’t know that about Mosley, but it’s not like Manny has been fighting scrubs either.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jul 7, 2011 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions
For sure
But he definitely caught a few guys after a loss or two.
Why would anyone want to see 6’2" 160lb Paul Williams fight a natural LW?
Manny is the man, but that’s just not fair to him.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
That's a fair criticism.
And that’s the frustrating thing, it just doesn’t seem like these boxers are consistently fighting top competition at the top of their games.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jul 7, 2011 6:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I was just picking a side for the fuck of it
I actually like Manny a lot more, but he has had more trouble with good defensive fighters and Floyd does do extremely well against puncher/boxers.
Its a very, very even match that would probably end in a controversial decision.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
well of course manny is gonna hit him
but floyd will put on a clinic like always, one must not watch boxing if they think otherwise
your crazier than batman
floyd is just too damn good to get beaten by a guy who looks terrific against weight drained, catchweight, walking punching bag, old men
Then what will happen with Manny Pacquiao vs. Floyd Mayweather II?
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 6, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I was never a big boxing fan and not really a combat sports fan until channel surfing one evening and catching UFC 75 on Bravo
It was a fun thing to watch and maintained a casual interest which led me eventually to Sherdog and then here. Never really been a fan of boxing but I dont hate it either
http://unintelligentdefense.blogspot.com
I will always take a great boxing match over a great MMA match
but recently MMA is more consistently entertaining, IMO.
Rios is an absolute prick and a bit of a dope. He also fights like a motherfucker and is constantly entertaining.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 6, 2011 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I have loved both MMA and boxing for the best part of the last decade but I have always had a preference for MMA. One reason is the business side of things. All too often top boxers do not face each other for various reasons. Also the situation with the various alphabet titles is very irritating (e.g, the current situation with the WBA HW title).
Another reason I prefer MMA is the fact that I have always found it to be a more interesting, varied sport. There are so many elements to each of the numerous disciplines that I still learn something new about the sport on a regular basis. I’ve always felt that boxing was the more simple sport.
In the end though, it’s all a matter of personal taste. I hate it when fans of the two sports get involved in silly arguments over which is better, open minded people should be able to appreciate the merits of both.
" Rock crushes scissors! But paper covers rock. And scissors cuts paper! Kif, we have a conundrum. "
------ Zapp Brannigan
what you mean a single boxing contentest cant be used as a blanket statment for boxing as a whole?
I dont like HW MMA and I dont like HW boxing
Twitter @MaZZM
http://www.mazzznet.com/
HOLLAH........
…….If you live in Vegas and you’re watching Khan/Judah live!! HOLLAH!!! I love both sports, I’m a amature MMAist who started out boxing as a kid. In a fucked up way, I love that boxing is, for lack of a better term “suffering” cuz when I buy cheap boxing tix, they get upgraded for free and I get to sit hella close. I’ve done that w/ Khan/Maidana, Marquez/Diaz 2, Marquez/Katsidis and I’ll do it again for Khan/Judah. Thank you HWs!! Although if I dont think the same will apply if Pacquiao/Marquez 3 or Cotto/Margarito 2 are in Vegas.
the major problem with both of these sports
is that its just damn hard to watch them consistently. having ppv shows, and shows on showtime and hbo means that your cutting out a massive proportion of potential viewers.
mma is fucking pain in the ass to watch consistently seeing that i dont have showtime for SF shows and that ever major ufc fight is on ppv. i watch the sport because i love it but it doesnt make it less annoying to have to go to bars every saturday ppv night, buy every ppv, or illegally watch a grainy terrible quality strem.
boxing doesnt even have shows of any consequence on normal television since everything seems to be on showtime, hbo and ppv
until mma or boxing are on regular tv consistently and showcase all the stars and shows without making people pay the price of going to a live sports game everytime they’re only gonna be niche sports
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
I agree 100%.
The UFC needs a terrestrial network deal. And I would really like to see them getting on ESPN as well. Put the non- title UFC events on network TV, the fight nights & whatnot on ESPN, and the mega cards on PPV (if you MUST).
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jul 7, 2011 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Somebody accidentally their whole verb
if you think boxing hasn’t been good since Tyson or De La Hoya, you just don’t what you’re talking about.
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by in the fight, what you saw, in the ring." - Tito Ortiz
Whaaa? Boxing has come up BIG TIME recently.
I went from not really caring 2-3 years ago to being really hyped for boxing these days. Great read Brent. will be back from vacation just in time for this scrap. Rios fight last Feb was amazing, as were plenty of other boxing fights this year.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
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