A Few Words on Boxing
Josh Nason posted this gem the other day, and I couldn't let it go without a response:
If there was ever a day that illustrated the vast chasm between MMA and boxing, it was Saturday, July 2nd. If this was a war, boxing would have waved the white flag. Over. Done. Kaput...
Among a myriad of issues, that is ultimately the problem with boxing. Their stars simply don't give a shit. Haye had been pining for a shot at either Klitschko brother for years, even making up shirts of him holding both Klitschko brothers' severed heads. He then gets his shot and lays a giant stinky egg in Germany. What the h? Does boxing want fans? Where's the passion? I don't get it.
You don't need to me to sit here and tell you that MMA surpassed boxing years ago, but here's what you need to remember any time these charlatans attempt to sell you a boxing fight that "matters": July 2, 2011 -- a day when two sets of fighters with blood feuds went to war with one set actually remembering what they were supposed to do.
It's a piece that echoes the sort of superficial, barely cognizant fandom normally reserved for the likes of PTI. This ever-growing sentiment that boxing "ain't what it used to be" is preposterous really. These sorts of folks come across like the people who think there hasn't been any good, innovative rock music for years, despite bands like My Morning Jacket, Arcade Fire, and Radiohead regularly releasing albums. It's not that there isn't a good product anymore. It's that you aren't paying attention.
Within just the past half decade, there been absolute battles, from Rafa Marquez's classic series with Israel Vasquez and his last stab at glory against JuanMa Lopez, to Juan Manuel Marquez's epic contests against Manny Pacquiao and Juan Diaz (at least in their first fight). People want to say it's just the lower weights entertaining, how about Sergio Martinez's ascent to stardom or Bernard Hopkins proving his greatness once again against Jean Pascal? The Super Six had its bumps in the road, but it was worth it just to see the rise of Andre Ward and the war that was Kessler vs Froch. I'm only 21 years old, but I'm willing to say boxing has been better in the past few years than at any other point in my lifetime. And that's coming from a guy whose favorite boxers are Evander Holyfield and Tito Trinidad.
Since the "age of heavyweights" waned, Mr. Nason and so many others seem to demarcate that as the last time boxing was good. Have they not seen Barerra and Morales and Castillo? MMA fans, you may laugh now at James Toney but go back and see the brilliance that is Toney/Jirov.
We are fortunate to see Floyd Mayweather Jr., one of the greatest defensive tacticians of all time, and Manny Pacquiao, who has an offensive arsenal that rivals Sugar Ray Robinson. If they fight, wonderful; if they don't, life goes on. MMA fans so often point to this as a reason why boxing is slipping, but remember Georges St. Pierre apparently "isn't big enough" to fight Anderson Silva.
Right now there are young studs like Yuriorkis Gamboa and Nonito Donaire set to dazzle us for years. If anything, boxing is, top-to-bottom, as healthy now as I've ever known it to be.
Antonio Margarito and Miguel Cotto will pack the house in a fierce rematch later this year at Madison Square Garden, the Mecca of North American athletic competition. Guess what isn't allowed at the Garden, and won't be for the forseeable future? Mixed martial arts.
I'm not telling you need to be a boxing fan. I'm just telling you that if you think boxing hasn't been good since Tyson or De La Hoya, you just don't what you're talking about. This "war" is a fiction I don't really understand. I love MMA for the diversity of skills on display, the "anything can happen" aspect. But I also love boxing for the drama inherent to the sport, drama that will never go away. One doesn't need to crowd the other out, and if you think so, you deserve to be rabbit punched by the Executioner.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Great article.
I couldn’t agree more, aside from the HW division boxing is still very strong.
As far as Boxing goes other than Gatti I only watched the HW's
And Radiohead and Arcade Fire don’t do it for me so I kinda lost you. So did Wlady wreck ol boy the other night?
Has a sig bet with Californication for Wiman/Siver at UFC 132
Further more, I have a sig bet with Chronogata on Lesnar over JDS
by doonerthesooner on Jul 5, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Saying you only watched Gatti is the boxing equivalent of telling people “I exclusively watch Leonard Garcia fights.”
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 5, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
I uderstand my opinions on boxing don't hold much water. I can't stand fights Floyd even though I do think he's the best around right now.
And I love Leonard Garcia fights as well. I’m not gonna sit here and pretend I don’t like a good slobberknocker.
Has a sig bet with Californication for Wiman/Siver at UFC 132
Further more, I have a sig bet with Chronogata on Lesnar over JDS
by doonerthesooner on Jul 5, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Describing Garcia fights as slobberknockers isn't entirely truthful.
That word is usually reserved for fights where both guys are getting hit hard, not one guy windmilling his arms and scoring points for his perceived effort even though he’s getting demolished.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 5, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
that's what she said?
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
by Anthony Pace on Jul 5, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Gatti is FAR better than Garcia though, you have to concede that.
If heavyweight isn't the toughest division in the UFC, then why doesn't someone that can kick their asses move to it? They don’t even have to cut weight!!
by crizzy on Jul 5, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good stuff
The only thing I’d argue is heavyweight boxing is dead. I’m on record as saying all the top heavyweights will go to MMA. HW in boxing will be so screwed once the Klitschkos retire. Who will carry the division? Adamek? That’s a cruiserweight. Haye? See Adamek. Arreola? Is a mediocre fighter. That division has nothing going for them and their dominant champions have no penetrable presence in the US and are not the most exciting to watch.
So close and yet so far. The story of my sports fandom.
I don't think anyone will argue about HW boxing
However I don’t think the heavyweights are going to MMA. They’ve already gone to the NFL and NBA.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
I'm talking strictly from a combat sports perspective.
So close and yet so far. The story of my sports fandom.
pretty much agreed
Heavyweight may be the big international division, so to speak, where all the 200+lb dudes don’t have that NFL/NBA alternative. I suspect we’ll see more Klitchsko type guys in the next few years, and the ocassional Chad Dawson-type go up and fight very heavy.
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
Probably another Eastern European with a great amateur pedigree fashioned in a system that seeks out top talent and pays to keep it progressing. Like most of the top ten of the division currently. As far as MMA goes, unless you start to see guys skipping college altogether and going straight into pro MMA out of high school a la Joe Stevenson and being a lot more successful than Joe Stevenson, I don’t see it reducing that talent pool either.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 4, 2011 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Arreola
isn’t mediocre – he does have good boxing ability and his weight issues kind of mask how good he could be, I think. He’s pretty charismatic too.
"I live what you talk. I Live What You Talk.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I find it amusing how some MMA fans get terribly uptight about their sport being judged by people with a limited knowledge of it (Bob O’Reilly, “human cockfighting”, “rolling on the ground”, etc.) yet are quite happy to attempt to pass judgement on boxing from a similar position of ignorance. There is a hell of a lot more to boxing than Klitschko vs. Haye.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
by VenusBlue on Jul 4, 2011 7:07 PM EDT reply actions 12 recs
crazy thing is...
it was far from the worst Wlad fight I’ve seen…
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
I quite enjoyed it
But then I based my expectations on how David Haye has fought lately rather than what he’s been saying. After all, Wlad gonna Wlad, so it’s about what his opponent brings to the table. I didn’t expect much from Haye, but the fight was interesting enough.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
I thought it was ok
interesting rather than exciting, but hey
"I live what you talk. I Live What You Talk.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Wlad vs. Ibragimov was easily the worst fight of his.
So close and yet so far. The story of my sports fandom.
the heavyweights might be a little shallow now(for american boxers for sure)
but the welterweights are fuckin stacked imo
R.I.P victor ortiz
boxing might still be good
but it sure as hell isnt popular. plus for a guy like me who is a casual fan of the sport and wants to basically just see the title fights its pretty fucking hard to do. in my eyes theres too many divisions, too many titles, too many ppvs, and too much bullshit
when i started following mma as obsessively as i do right now it took me a matter of a few weeks to understand who all the champs were, how they fought, watch a few of their older fights and see some of the challengers to sort of “catch up on the sport”. but with boxing it simply looks like a insurmountable task
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
by milk72 on Jul 4, 2011 7:27 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I dunno about you
but when I first became interested in MMA, I lurked MMA forums for about a year or so. Not really posting anything, just absorbing as much info as I could to try and gain a better understanding of the sport. I’ve started doing the same at BLH as my interest in boxing has grown. It’s a pretty amazing resource even for casual fans and I would highly recommend you check it out at some point.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 4, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Too many ppvs?
but it sure as hell isnt popular. plus for a guy like me who is a casual fan of the sport and wants to basically just see the title fights its pretty fucking hard to do. in my eyes theres too many divisions, too many titles, too many ppvs, and too much bullshit
It sounds to me that you are looking for excuses to disregard it. It is perhaps the easiest sport to follow, if you want to see most of the major, important bouts order Showtime and HBO and watch what they broadcast. If you’re worried about the titles, then focus only on Ring magazines.
So far this year Showtime and HBO have held only 4 ppvs compared to the 9 the UFC has had. The rest of their matches – including Super six bouts with Froch vs Abraham, Pascal vs Hopkins, Berto vs Ortiz, Martinez vs Sergiy, and the HW bout between Klitchko and Haye – has been on Showtime or HBO for about $10 a month each. And with that monthly cost you get Strikeforce matches, Game of Thrones, Boardwalk Empire, etc. etc.
I don't think it's an excuse
I actually really enjoy boxing, and I try to catch all the HBO, Showtime and ESPN fights that I can fit in. But I think the one area where MMA is clearly superior is in organization and progression. Even lurking on BLH and playing semi-close attention it is REALLY hard to follow a fighter’s progress up the ladder of any given division. It seems like fighters fight, and then you don’t hear about them again for 6 months, or however long it is. MMA in general and the UFC particularly have done a great job of creating a sense of progression and order that is appealing to me as a sports fan, even if I like the actual fighting close to equally.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 5, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
MMA in general and the UFC particularly have done a great job of creating a sense of progression and order that is appealing to me as a sports fan, even if I like the actual fighting close to equally.
That’s interesting, because I disagree in many instances.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 5, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess its relative
would you agree that the progression is more linear and easy to follow in MMA than it is in boxing?
Even with all other things being equal (which I don’t think they are) the number of divisions and titles in boxing is fairly dizzying.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 5, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the progression is much easier to follow in boxing. The UFC makes a mess of things, buries top 5 fighters and contenders on the prelims and the reality television influx confuses things further.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 5, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
MMA sold more PPVs in 2009 than anything has in a single year ever, including boxing.
Then they beat that record in 2010.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
This doesn’t mean boxing is dead though; the two are not mutually exclusive. I know plenty of people who are fans of both MMA and boxing, including myself. MMA may be bigger in the US, but I would be willing to argue that boxing is bigger internationally. Like I said, however, there is plenty of room for people to enjoy both sports.
by tylerj19 on Jul 4, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
And is banned on German television with 18+ restrictions on tickets, where the Klitchkos can fucking pack house.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jul 5, 2011 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions
He’ll argue that it simply makes them backwards and that if MMA was allowed to exist on equal terms, they’d be putting up a cage at the Brandenburg Gate for Dennis Siver fights.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions
And THIS is precisely the wrong attitude.
We are fortunate to see Floyd Mayweather Jr., one of the greatest defensive tacticians of all time, and Manny Pacquiao, who has an offensive arsenal that rivals Sugar Ray Robinson. If they fight, wonderful; if they don’t, life goes on.
There is no reason, on Earth, that these two should not fight.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 4, 2011 7:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Mayweather doesn't want his legacy potentially ruined
But I agree, this would be the biggest selling fight in 20 years
Having this come from you
Is hypocrisy and double standards at their finest.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
by Neil Manich on Jul 4, 2011 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions 12 recs
while i have no problems with the subo bashing
I’m not really sure how this particular line is hypocritical.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Subo’s attitude is that co-promotion in MMA is a complete evil, even if it results in the best possible fights. Interesting, co-promotion in boxing not happening is also complete evil.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions
His stance is that co-promotion is bullshit, because it adds a layer of complexity that can cause fights to not happen. See example A: Mayweather/Pacquiao. Subo has always pushed for all the best fighters to be in one organization so that they can fight each other with the minimum amount of fuss.
Pretty damn simple to understand, but he can be a complete ass at times so most people just bash him.
Guillotine.
by iiowyn on Jul 5, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is kind of what i thought
I was wondering if I’d missed something, but it seems not.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
His stance is inflexible in that he also doesn’t want to see co-promotion occur to make those fights in that it is the lesser of two evils to not have fights now if it means we get all the great fights later.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Co promotion is the ONLY reason Mayweather/Pacquiao hasn't happened yet.
I’d love a single promotion to house the best boxers UFC-style. It’s the lack of that kind of continuity that has stopped the Most Obvious Fight in the History of Mankind from taking place. Maybe – just maybe – this fight not happening will provide some impetus for that, but I doubt it.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Why would you want one promoter?
So that a Bob Arum, Don King, or Golden Boy gets to keep 80% of the revenue instead of the fighers. “Hey, guys! Stop complaining and fight while the guy we’ve been calling scum for the last twenty years gets to pocket all the money you bring in!”
by John Nash on Jul 5, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nice strawman.
I’m not happy with the percentage of revenue that UFC fighters get, and I want it to go up. I’m also behind the players in the NFL lockout.
You think having multiple promoters lessens the amount of money spent on promotion?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s generous of you. You are against any form of competition between promoters which provides options and drives up salaries. You are against enforcement of the Ali act which forbids champion clauses and limits a fighters negotiating power at his most valuable. You are for a monolithic promotion that has a history of being anti-organized labor in a sport that has almost impossible hurdles for forming unions.
And talk about a strawman. Do you really think boxers’ purses are smaller because there is a Golden Boy, Top Rank, Gary Shaw Productions, and Don King promoting it plus an HBO, Showtime, and foreign markets producing it instead of only a single enterprise?
by John Nash on Jul 5, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Most boxers? Absolutely.
Not the few at the top. And they’re not selling more PPVs than the “monolithic” UFC.
I suppose you took Zuffa giving every fighter on its roster health care as an “anti-union” move. Maybe it was, but if it helps the fighters, is it a bad thing?
And I wish I had it here, but the “PRIDE dies, pay goes up – you can’t explain that” O’Reilly picture would fit perfectly. MMA fighters in 2011 have it better than MMA fighters have ever had it, and it’s due precisely to the explosive growth of the sport, which is due precisely to Zuffa solidifying its grasp on the top talent over the last half-decade.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Derek, I don’t know how to explain this any clearer: just because pay goes up doesn’t mean you aren’t getting less than you’re worth. Before 1975 – before baseball had collusion thrown out (the same effect as a monopoly and champions clauses in MMA) baseball players were making 4 times the national average and had seen their pay double over the previous 5 years. And they were still getting ripped off. It took Marvin Miller to get the players to fix what he thought was the unfairness of the players contracts. As he famously said:
If we can fix the player’s contracts, Bobby Bonds’s son will make more in one season than his father made in his entire career.The son was Barry Bonds, who in fact went on to make more in one season than his father’s entire team during the entire careers combined.
As for boxer vs MMA pay, I beg to differ with your analysis. Not only are the top 10 boxers making far, far more than any MMA fighter, but I would wager the 50th highest paid boxer would be maket the top 20 in MMA. Because of the way purses are bid out a much greater number of boxers are making a lot more on fights than MMA fighters. And this is in a sport, as you point out, that doesn’t sell as many lucrative ppvs.
The new health policy is great (but it isn’t health care. It is further coverage for profession related injuries. It doesn’t cover families nor outside profession related illness). In fact, anything Zuffa does to appease fighters so as to not form a union is good. Now if they break out the stick I’ll have a problem.
AS for pay going up, it has but not to the degree some fans claim. Take a look at the huge paydays lost in other promotions when Affliction, Elite XC, and others went out. Sure, in the UFC pay has gone up 30 or 40% in the last couple of years while adding another 40 fight slots. But we’ve also lost a huge chunk of high paying mma slots with the loss of those other promotions. Things have gotten better but not to the degree you imagine. (there is also some evidence that many more fighters are struggling with a downturn in sponsorship). And while that pay has gone up they have been setting records in ppv sales the last two years. Somehow I doubt the increase in pay matches the increase in revenue.
by John Nash on Jul 5, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The minimum pay has gone up, as has the max, as has the average.
And it continues to do so. I’d love to see the evidence that fighters today make less in sponsorship dollars than they did in the past.
I know there’s a cleft between the growth in revenue and the growth in pay. I’d like to see it addressed. But fucking fracturing the business model that led to both growths is NOT the way to go about it. I’m glad we agree that appeasing fighters is a good thing, even if it makes unionization less likely.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Those are two separate issues imo
Yes, having more competition gives fighters more leverage, however it also leads to what we’ve seen in boxing, where the big fights we WANT to see often do not happen.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
where the big fights we WANT to see often do not happen.
This isn’t really true, and shows you haven’t been paying attention.
When fights make sense, they generally get made. Floyd/Manny is the exception, not the rule.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 5, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
so what you're saying is
boxing is doing everything right? because you’ve been a constant defender of a sport that has sunk to incredible lows in popularity compared to what it once was. it’s very true. that and a ton of other reasons are perfectly valid, despite your head-in-the-sand attitude.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s obviously not what I’m saying.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 5, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
IMHO I really think that to say its the ONLY reason it hasn’t happened is a bit strong. There’s honestly a lot more to it than that.
I don’t want to join in with all the ‘subo bashing’ but I never heard that view before. Its something to think about, anyway.
"I live what you talk. I Live What You Talk.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Co promotion is the ONLY reason Mayweather/Pacquiao hasn’t happened yet.
Is this comedy hour at BE?
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
yeah I didn't want to be that strong...lol
"I live what you talk. I Live What You Talk.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Thank you
I really didn’t understand that line of criticism.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
So if this is a power play by the various promoters in their attempt to be the dominant promoter within their sport, isn’t it a good thing since they’re trying to attain a one promoter-centric sport that appeals more strongly to you?
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
No
Because none of them are ever going to pull it off. Neither Arum nor Golden Boy have enough of a roster to start/sustain a promotion, because neither of them are interested in doing that – they simply want as much money as possible for a series of one-off fights.
Again, neither of the sides here are trying to start a self-perpetuating promotion. Saying it doesn’t matter whether or not the two best boxers of the last decade face off… it just boggles me.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Top Rank’s construction of its own PPV and TV deals tells me otherwise. Same with Golden Boy and their too-close association with HBO and Ring Magazine.
What I get from this is that you don’t understand boxing and you’re flailing mightily to try and defend this stance you’ve created. If you did, you’d be squarely blaming Mayweather in this as you did Fedor and M-1 for him not acquiescing to the UFC’s demands as Floyd once chose not to do when being presented with new contracts and big money fights by Bob Arum year after year after year for the last half decade.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
MMA and boxing are different.
I’d love, love, love to see a UFC-style promoter enter boxing. I’ve given up on that dream.
After what co-promotion (and the multitude of belts that came into being when Ali dodged the draft) has done to boxing, I don’t want that shit anywhere NEAR my sport. And I’m not flailing at all – anyone that sincerely argues that boxing’s business model is superior to the UFC’s should have their head examined.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
You barely care about boxing by your own admission and that’s been the story all along. Meanwhile you’ve already resorted to the usual strawmen in order to bolster your argument and get away from the fact that, yes, Bob Arum would like to have everyone under contract and dominate the sport single handedly over the charges that left and badmouthed the shit out of him.
I could sit here and write a book comparing the Mayweather/Arum situation to the UFC/M-1 deal and making it analogous, but for what?
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Bob Arum will turn 80 in December.
He’s not a serious person in the discussion of “running a UFC-like boxing promotion”, because he’s going to be dead soon. What happens next with boxing is anyone’s guess, but it would be better served by moving away from co-promotion whenever possible.
It sure sounds like you’re saying that absent co-promotion – ie, if Floyd and Pac were under the same umbrella – the fight would have happened by now.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Would it? Who knows. Rashad Evans/Jon Jones isn’t happening and those guys aren’t even rich. Ultimately the guy to blame is Floyd Mayweather, not the sport of boxing.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Evans/Jones was going to happen
And the two of them being paid by different people would have only added another unnecessary layer of bullshit between them not fighting and them fighting.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Mayweather/Pacquiao had a date and a venue once too. Who cares until they’re in the ring? All the posturing on your part in the world is irrelevant until the fight is delivered.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
you could write a book on that
however, unless my knowledge of the situation is completely incorrect, thats a shitty comparison to make as there are more differences than similarities.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The Arum/Mayweather back story goes all the way to 2004. Its pretty crucial to understanding everything that’s happened since. You could do a great compare/contrast to Fedor getting a “6 fight/$30 million dollar offer” and Arum’s “$10 million dollar offer” to fight Margarito. But again; no one is really going to read or process it and its not going to change anyone’s mind here. So why bother?
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
This doesn't even have to broach the co-promotion point.
How often does Subo complain about whiny entitled fans? Every fan post?
Also, Subo is my colleague and I like the guy.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
yeah…how does it make the sport look when the two greatest fighters of their generation won’t fight???
I am confused? You’re talking Mayweather and Pacquiao or GSP and Silva?
by John Nash on Jul 5, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Not. The. Same.
GSP has never competed within 15 pounds of Anderson’s belt. Not once.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
People trying to point out the supposedly irreparable flaws in boxing can only point to one fight – Manny vs PBF. (OK. and maybe Klitschko vs Klitschko if they’re not being serious.) Name another fight in boxing that is a must see that isn’t being made right now because of the nature of boxing?
As for GSP vs Silva, If the fight was so ridiculous than why tease us so mercilessly with its possibility? Why have Dana and Lorenzo, and even GSP and Silva practically promise us the bout?
by John Nash on Jul 5, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
there are a ton of things wrong with boxing
outside of the Klits and Pac/PBF not happening.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Most people pointing that fight out on MMA websites really only know those two boxers. Just a point.
Guillotine.
Yeah. We point to it because it’s the Most Obvious Fight in the History of Mankind.
I didn’t say the fight was ridiculous. I said comparing a career MW not fighting a career WW to Manny not fighting Floyd is ridiculous. And it is. It’s a silly, stupid, spurious comparison.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Career MW?
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 5, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve covered this before with him but his memory is lacking. If it happened outside the UFC it didn’t happen.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 5, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, everyone
Anderson Silva was a welterweight right around when Fedor lost to TK. Since then, his only forays outside of MW have involved fighting 35 pounds heavier than GSP ever has.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
After KOing Newton he was considered one of the top WWs in the world. Describing him as a career MW isn’t an accurate statement.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 5, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
For context
Anderson Silva defeated Carlos Newton halfway through George W Bush’s 48 hour ultimatum for Saddam Hussein to leave Iraq.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Which changes nothing.
If I described Floyd Mayweather as a career WW because that’s where all his recent fights have been at it would still be a stupid and inaccurate statement.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 5, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
fer christs sake
he’s been at his current weight class or greater for the best part of a decade. if you want to argue that he’s a WW, you’re a fool.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
He's not a WW.
But neither is he a “career MW” any more than Dan Henderson or Randy Couture are “career LHWs”.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 5, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
jesus, really?
Both of those guys fought outside that weight class within the past three fights, much less eight years ago. come on.
I think it is is a perfectly acceptable line to say he’s a career MW, since he’s been doing it for the vast majority of his career and has been since 200f’n3
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
What do you think career MW means?
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 5, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm perfectly comfortable with someone using that label on someone who's been at that weight or greater for the past 8 years and
someone who, if I’m remembering right, has fought 27 of his 34 fights at MW
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s trivia. Let them have it.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
funny
I’ve actually used that exact line before. You’d have thought I would remember it myself.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
someone who, if I’m remembering right, has fought 27 of his 34 fights at MW
Someone who has fought roughly one fifth of their career at weights other than middleweight? That’s not a career middleweight.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 5, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
oh bullshit
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
So a guy who won a title at welterweight in a big promotion against one of the top welterweights of his era is a “career middleweight?”
It’s cool if you don’t know much about what went on outside of the Octagon. But maybe that doesn’t make you the best person to talk about “career.”
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 5, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Describing someone who was a former top 5 at WW
as a “career MW” is stupid, sorry. GSP is a career WW – all of his fights have been at WW. Cain Velasquez is a career HW. Anderson Silva is not a career MW.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 5, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
![]()
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Good one.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 5, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok everyone – Anderson Silva was a welterweight right around when Fedor lost to TK.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
And 3 years after that as well.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 5, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, right before US (or are you going to call foul and insist I use “coalition” instead?) forces invaded Iraq. Sure. Can’t argue that.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Which, again
is completely irrelevant to the point, which is that Silva is not a career MW. There’s no time limit on accolades.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 5, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
The last time Anderson Silva lost was over five years ago. This was a long time ago, therefore Anderson Silva is an undefeated fighter.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 5, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
So is he a career MW (as you called him) or not?
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 5, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
To Subo it is irrelevant. Hasn’t he made that clear? Merely trivia, nothing else. Same argument could be said about Manny too; 3 days before Anderson won the welterweight title, Manny defended his super bantamweight title. A 122lb title. 6 divisions below where he’s at now. Again though, in the fact of simply calling it “obvious” that is merely trivia next to opinion.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
He also offered to make 170 recently.
Interesting that arguments about weight, a key negotiating point in Pacquiao vs. Mayweather, is also preventing GSP vs. Anderson despite completely different business models.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jul 5, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
i can't believe i'm defending subo here
but really
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
You are right. A career welterweight fighting a career featherweight is very different.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Boom
It’s a piece that echoes the sort of superficial, barely cognizant fandom normally reserved for the likes of PTI.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
by Neil Manich on Jul 4, 2011 9:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The obsession that some fans have with proving MMA superiority and declaring complete victory over boxing is almost Jungian in its obsession. Strange we don’t see that same envy/hated directed at wrestling, kickboxing, or jujutsu. Did Wilfred Benitez take their lunch money when they were young?
A couple of reminders before we pronounce the end of boxing:
The largest live crowd for a prizefight will go to Klitschko vs Haye this year. Last year it was the two Manny fights at Cowboys Stadium. TWO. In Cowboy’s Stadium.
The four highest selling ppv this year will most likely be the two Pacquiao fights, Mayweather vs Ortiz, and Klitschko vs Haye if the UK ppv estimates are correct.
The 7 highest (perhaps even more) fight purses will all be paid to boxers this year.
Boxing is on the upswing and last I checked the UFC was doing fine. I think they both can thrive without worrying about the other being a threat to its existence.
I still think it's that MMA is the up-and-coming sport, trying to assert itself.
Boxing has a grand lineage, including some of the greatest athletes in any sport ever. MMA isn’t even legal in all 50 states yet. It’s like calling out the champ, even if you’re several fights away from a title fight. Our fans are insecure – why else would Dana work with Toney to play up the “boxing vs MMA” angle? So we can go around saying that we’re sooooo much better than boxing.
Other combat sports don’t compete much with MMA for viewers/money. There’s also a decent amount of crossover between them – not so much between boxing and MMA. There’s much friction between them instead.
I don’t like boxing, I’ll admit, but to say this is its death knell doesn’t make sense.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Another thing is the best boxers are still much, much greater cultural figures than the best MMA fighters
you hear PBF references in rap lyrics alongside Lebron James, you see Manny Pacquiao on Jimmy Kimmel and 60 minutes.
I have to think fans who strictly support MMA are a bit envious of that. It’s a culturaly legitimacy the sport still doesn’t have.
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
by Anthony Pace on Jul 5, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Lupe Fiasco makes TONS of boxing references.
Pacquiao and Ali in back to back tracks on the newest album, Leon Spinks on The Cool, and a handful of others I can’t think of immediately. MMA’s best musical reference is the video to one of the worst tracks on the latest Megadeth album (Headcrusher) and not even in the song itself. After that it’s… uh… Fight to Love Me?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jul 5, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
About a month ago me and my roommates had a party and I was pretty hammered, so I threw on Fight to Love Me. Talk about a vibe killer. The only person who liked it was this Turkish guy, so take that for what it’s worth…
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
You're forgetting this classic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8gPYZ2P31o
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Boxing is always frustating for me to watch
I hate the fights where they continually clinch up to stall the match. And I have no idea who’s who in any division at this point. Aside from the Klitsch bros Manny and Mayweither, I have no clue.
I did get into it a bit back in HS when I had a free sub to HBO and watched the Friday Night Fights but that didn’t last long and it faded quickly. My problem is that I know there’s complicated afairs between all the different promoters and I have no idea where to get started.
Aside from that, I never really got the MMA vs. Boxing rivalry. they’re totally different sports aside from both being “combat” sports. But you’ll never get the same thing from either sport and I think that’s the beauty of it.
You know what, chris81203? You confuse and infuriate me. - James Brady (Ninjames)
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
And I have no idea who’s who in any division at this point. Aside from the Klitsch bros Manny and Mayweither, I have no clue.
And whose fault is that?
by The Ghost of Spike Owen on Jul 5, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
the marketers and promoters of boxing
for failing to capture the public’s attention. Stars are made not by the public going out and looking for them, but by them doing things so extraordinary that they invade our space. The fact that someone is doing an extraordinary thing and you aren’t hearing anything about them is the fault of the promotional arm, not of the individual.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh, plenty of people, including boxing fans, have no idea who Cain Velasquez is, that isn’t the UFC’s fault.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 5, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
yea actually
i think it partly is, if we’re talking on the same terms. The UFC hasn’t dented a lot of the mainstream yet, despite some very good efforts. If blame IS going to be assigned, fairly or not, it falls on them
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
In general with MMA, “extraordinary things” are more likely to happen in this early point in its existence. As time goes on and what was extraordinary becomes routine, its going to become tougher and tougher to market the spectacle of MMA in the manner that it has been.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
you mistake what I mean
I don’t mean some flying knee KO followed by shitting your pants in joy. You don’t have to do something that’s never been done – but it sure helps. The problem with boxing in this context is that outside of Pac, they aren’t even coming close to what has BEEN done, much less surpassing the benchmarks.
The Klits’ are dominating HWs on a pretty big scale, but their competition is barely mediocre and they fight in such an unexciting style that we look back on the Foremans and Alis and others and disdain to even mention them in the conversation. Combine the dullards we do have with the lack of promotion for the exciting fighters that DO exist, and we’re starting to come up with a better picture of why boxing’s luster is dulling.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't think I was blaming anyone
My point was that the task is daunting as I constantly hear guys talk about “the alphabet soup” and so many weight class, which by there names I have no clue what weight they’re supposed to be – see: Super Cruiser Junior Welter Middleweight.
Obviously, with some research I could clear this up on my own. But it makes it difficult to just jump in and start watching.
You know what, chris81203? You confuse and infuriate me. - James Brady (Ninjames)
Most of the time I am a rather quiet fellow, who likes to read about Philosophy, Mathematics and History, but like most people I also have a deep appreciation of sex and violence... - John Danaher
It seems to me that the problem with boxing is the promoters, not the fighters
How often do you see hot prospects on the undercard put in competitive match-ups where you’re genuinely interested because you don’t know who’s going to win? How often is the semi-main-event even on a poster? Some promoters seem to be learning the value of a card where the undercard isn’t pure filler or softball squash matches, and that an exciting undercard is valuable in a number of ways (it can help redeem a disappointing main-event, and build up potential future main-eventers at the same time). Some have not learned this. HBO didn’t even show the Klitschko-Haye undercard at all. Maybe there was nothing actually worth showing on it, I wouldn’t know. In the end though, Klitschko-Haye was only one boring match (albeit in a division that critically needed the match to be good), but the event was symptomatic of a larger problem. If you have an event that will draw viewers who are extremely casual fans like myself to boxing (I would have watched it but I was stuck at work), you know, viewers who aren’t even really boxing fans, then a good promoter should take the opportunity to showcase the sport as a whole, not one mega-fight. If the UFC was run the way most boxing promoters do things, and the sport of boxing was generally like Zuffa, I might be a hardcore boxing geek instead of an MMA geek who is only peripherally aware of or interested in the world of boxing.
That being said I really loved the Super Six concept and would love to see something like that in MMA (maybe at LW?).
People came to watch the Klitschko fight. Ultimately they weren’t going to care about anything else shown on TV compared to that.
I know MMA fans talk as if our sport is different, but did anyone see how many empty seats there were for the prelims at UFC 132? The attitude of people coming to see the whole card is pretty much dead in Vegas and that will probably continue to be the case in many other locales too. eventually, like boxing, they won’t even move from the tables until the last couple of fights.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I seriously don't see where you're coming from
In Vegas, particularly if you have an opening bout between two last minute replacements who are both complete unknowns making their debut (I can’t even remember the last time that happened), then yes, I expect empty seats earlier in the evening. Otherwise, arenas are generally pretty packed by the time the televised prelims start. That’s to say that usually UFC events are packed in time for the Top 7 matches. Often even before that. It’s nothing like major boxing events.
Furthermore Vegas is in a class by itself when it comes to being a market burned out on major events. The UFC does half-a-dozen shows a year in Vegas. Are there any other places they even go to more than once a year regularly? Kind of hard to burn out a market when you go there once a year or once every few years.
Otherwise, arenas are generally pretty packed by the time the televised prelims start.
Yeah this just isn’t true is it?
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 7, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I was hoping at least one of those words was
zzzzzzzzzzzz
I kid, I kid.
despite bands like My Morning Jacket, Arcade Fire, and Radiohead regularly releasing albums.
Unsurprisingly, I dislike all three of those bands. I couldn’t fathom how in the fuck Suburbs won album of the year. Rock will be big again when it expands past the white (and hipster) audiences again. A lot of cultural weight is being thrown behind rap, and to a lesser extent r&b, much of it at the expense of rock. Kind of similar to the UFC taking boxing’s younger audience.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
I didn't even know that Arcade Fire was an innovative band. I couldn't pick their music out of a lineup if I tried.
I like Radiohead, though.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions
listen to coldplay
add a little guitar and subtract a little whine. you’ve got arcade fire.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I loathe Coldplay.
So you haven’t sold me on AF, nor convinced me that they’re innovative.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it possible to loathe Coldplay? That’s like loathing beige.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 5, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
This is brilliant.
What everyone needs to do is calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare their bodies for the Thunderdome.
by lowellthehammer on Jul 5, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
i've known a few people who loathed beige
they were all interior designers and gay as could be. take that for what it’s worth
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I've known a few people who loathed Coldplay
they didn’t have any other particular character trait in common though…at thats worth :)
"I live what you talk. I Live What You Talk.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
dammit
I meant to write ‘for what’ thats worth….lost the faint comedy factor :(
"I live what you talk. I Live What You Talk.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
failhorn
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Mediocrity inspires rabid disfavor with me.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm not trying to sell you on AF
that’s kind of the point, actually.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
...
Then mission accomplished. I think. Carry on!
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
look at it this way
i work in a music store. if you ACTUALLY want a recommendation, I can give you one. 99.99% of music buyers (or downloaders) aren’t interested in a stranger’s opinion.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm always up for new & intersting music.
Post it here, email me, find me on twitter. Whatever. I’m game.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
rock? rap? gimme a starting point
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Mostly rock, but I'll venture out if something is good.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
newish rock that i liked over the past year or two:
Black Keys, The Heavy.
Modern rock is pretty uninteresting to me personally. I tried giving We Are the Fallen a listen, but it wasn’t that great.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably my favorite band right now
Their Junior Kimbrough cover of ‘Have Mercy On Me’ from Chulahoma will put some hair on your ass.
Follow me at Head Kick Legend
by David Castillo on Jul 5, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know what the Black Keys qualify as
But the music is dope.
Eh, maybe around the time Nantes came out.
Not feeling em recently. I saw them at a festival show a few years back and Zach Condon was basically blacked out drunk on the stage. Also, Dave Walsh from liverkick.com claims to have punched Condon once, which is fucking hilarious.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
there early stuff is their best stuff, no doubt
but Mimizan on the Dark was the Night compilation is solid.
Have you seen Ed Droste with Beirut?
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
Naw
But that seems like a pretty obvious match.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
Hurdy gurdy on a rock album in this day and age?
One of their most popular songs has a church organ as the lead instrument. Maybe “innovative” was the wrong word, but they take chances, which is a far cry from most of what is on the radio.
/looks at Hot 100
//Maroon 5 has highest “rock” song
///weeps
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
i can't really say they take chances or don't
but they remind me very much of coldplay (assuming you’re still talking about arcade fire), and I don’t really mean that as a compliment.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
oh my goodness AF is nothing like Coldplay
and I’m preparing to be stoned, but I think the first two Coldplay albums are kinda listenable…
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
meh
its elevator, background music to me. it’s just kind of…. plain. stale? very inoffensive.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
what kinda elevators you been ridin' in bro?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-wEBmLht5g&feature=related
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
they sound like coldplay
haven’t we covered this already?
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions
The lead singer doesn't sing in falsetto...
The rhythm section actually drives their songs…
Their lyrics aren’t predictable…
THEY’RE NOTHING LIKE COLDPLAY. If ya wanna disparagingly compare them to someone like Vampire Weekend or The Shins or something.
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
It's crazy to me that you would say that.
Funeral seriously put the music world on it’s dick. Background music?
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
It's because after Funeral dropped
Every indie band aped their shit. Seriously, like everybody. It’s a long form joke in Indie communities. “What if The Rapture didn’t start to suck? Would everything be dance punk instead of sounding like Arcade fire?”
It’s like saying the Strokes weren’t fresh at the time because Neon Trees aren’t creative.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
by Neil Manich on Jul 5, 2011 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't find the Strokes that fresh...
…sounded like 1960s garage rock warmed over, minus the rebelliousness…
@scb0212
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by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
It was meant to sound retro. I didn’t say original, it was fresh. Music was getting a little too OK Computer-y before This is It came out.
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But it lacked the spirit of the originals; it aped only the sound.
Bands like the Stooges or Patti Smith were dangerous – you never knew what would come next. These retro bands neutered all the anarchy out of them.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The Strokes don't sound much like The Stooges or Patti Smith at all
And they aren’t a punk band. They aren’t going for an edge, or trying to shock you. They’re just trying to describe what’s cool. It’s like that idea of something just, cool. They looked like it, they acted like it, and they sounded like it. I almost want to say auditory aesthetic if that wasn’t such an oxy-moron. The Stooges wanted to be dangerous, they wanted to seek and destroy, The Strokes wanted to be cool, and talk about last night.
They really aren’t similar bands.
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Yeah
It’s amazing how fast they fell.
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I heard those sounds throughout Is This It (also the pop choards of the Ramones).
What bands do you suggest they mimicked, then?
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Velvet Underground aesethically
Which I maintain is important. The Strokes sold more than just music. Musically it’s there big time too, but Lou Reed influenced basically everybody. Sounds a lot like Television.
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I love VU & Nico.
Marquee Moon is also a great album. Maybe I need to revisit the Strokes, but I don’t see what I can get out of them that I can’t get out of better bands & albums.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the Strokes are the kind of band that you can't really revisit
Like, it was just kind of the time. Now after Garage Rock fizzled out and The Von Bondies aren’t even a joke anymore, the Whites divorced etc… it probably doesn’t seem like much. But they were a ROCK band. Like a real one. With rock stars. Albert Hammond Jr. dated Ageyness Dean, the closest thing to Twiggy post 1970. And they just sounded cool.
They were a real rock band in 2001. In the ipod era. They may have even started the ipod era.
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For a while there The Libertines gave me hope
Even if the music was just mediocre, at least Doherty was living it right.
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
And your second point
Is probably something a lot of people said about Nevermind in reference to Surfer Rosa. But those people were wrong.
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For me, In Utero > Surfer Rosa > Nevermind. Probably a weird ranking by most standards.
By “real rock”, you mean the partied like old-fashioned rock stars?
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The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Like what people imagine Rock in their heads as
I don’t really like to rank albums like that because I constantly disagree with myself, but I don’t think that ranking is bad.
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See, that's not how I imagine rock to be, so perhaps that's why I find it flat.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
The Strokes were way more like Television than they were the Ramones.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 6, 2011 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
that's a rec
When a young band gets David Bowie, Springsteen, and U2 all wanting to play with them, you know they’re the tits.
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
That lineup should have read something like
The Black Keys, Hacienda, and anything Josh Homme-related.
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by David Castillo on Jul 5, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
That would be a little more interesting
Modern rock just doesn’t interest me much, and it shouldn’t be a surprise that the bands that I do end up liking, like the Black Keys, have a more retro style to most of their songs.
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by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
That’s why I’m so thankful for Homme. Queens of the Stone Age, Them Crooked Vultures, and even some of his stuff with the Eagles of Death Metal are interesting enough, but even though they weren’t perfect, I still miss 90’s era rock. Soundgarden, Rage, Tool, Alice, STP…even lame imitations like Silverchair were enjoyable enough. Nowadays literally nothing stands out, with a few minor exceptions. Not a big fan of Arcade Fire, but I did like The Suburbs album.
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by David Castillo on Jul 5, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I went into listening to AF with no notion at all of how they sounded
I read a Slate article on “grammy nominees who don’t suck”, and they linked the youtube video of “Ready to Start”. I liked it, so I gave the album a couple listens. There wasn’t a single track other than that I cared a lick for.
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by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Kyuss's "Blues for the Red Sun" is one of my favorite albums. One of the loudest I've heard, too.
The 90s had lots of good music. The AV Club’s series Whatever Happened to Alternative Nation? is a pretty good read. I also recommend researching the soundtrack to Daria – kickass music through and through.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 5, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Hipster is maybe the worst word in American slang.
And it bothers me to say that, because the obvious counter is just, “What a fucking hipster thing to say.”
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There's a worse slang word than hipster.
It’s pretty obscure though. I’m not surprised that you haven’t heard of it yet.
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by pdl on Jul 5, 2011 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
you had me until you said that like My Morning Jacket and Arcade Fire are innovative. they suck. both of them. seriously.
Maybe he simply meant that, while they suck ...
they always find clever, new ways to do so?
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by PlantingaFan on Jul 5, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
any alternatives?
At least you didn’t knock Radiohead. Them’d be fightin’ words.
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
For real.
You dislike Radiohead, you fail as a human.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 5, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm okay with failing as a human.
I’ll say it – fuck Radiohead!
I don’t like Thom Yorke.
"So even though it’s the gayest sport ever, MMA is still the best sport ever. I love my gay sport." - Wrestling Uber Alles
I've tried getting into radiohead on three separate occasions
no dice ever. Just does nothing to me or for me.
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by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
May be the kind of bad that has to get you at the right time
I distinctly remember giving The Bends my third or fourth listen, sitting on the edge of my bed when I was around 16, and that’s when Radiohead “clicked” for me.
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
I'm with that green dude.
I’ve got some friends who are really into Radiohead. I’ve given them a shot multiple times and it always just grated on me.
"So even though it’s the gayest sport ever, MMA is still the best sport ever. I love my gay sport." - Wrestling Uber Alles
Radiohead can suck my balls through my drawers.
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by Neil Manich on Jul 5, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jonny Greenwood would take your castrated nuts and make sonic brilliance with them.
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
Rec'd not for the Radiohead hate,...
…but for the creative manner in which Radiohead hate was applied.
What a visual!
"So even though it’s the gayest sport ever, MMA is still the best sport ever. I love my gay sport." - Wrestling Uber Alles
You ever see either live?
You should.
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So the argument is...
…On a night boxing attracted a huge crowd and interest in multiple countries, the UFC proved it was dead by putting on a main event no one wanted to see. Hmmm?
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 5, 2011 10:29 AM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Both arguments
kind of suck. The boxing vs. MMA thing is old now, too. They’re both successful.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Agreed
and they both have their issues. The debate is stupid. The assertion that one night “ends the war” is even stupider. The use of the word “stupider” is even stupiderer. The use of the word “stupiderer” is fucking awesome.
Sorry but I can't agree.
I was a boxing junky in the 80s and for the 1st part of the 90s. In no way shape or form does boxing have the star power today it had then. I am not sure why the drop off happened. I don’t know if it’s the promoters, the fighters or maybe the fans.
It has become harder for me to watch boxing over the years because of MMA. With the ‘oh shit’ factor MMA provides on a card by card basis, boxing tends to have once maybe twice a year. I will be a boxing fan forever, it just takes a backseat to my MMA.
With the ‘oh shit’ factor MMA provides on a card by card basis, boxing tends to have once maybe twice a year.
Sounds more like you haven’t been paying enough attention. Boxing’s had a lot of great fights this year.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 5, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
sounds like
boxing hasn’t done a good enough job of promoting their sport. It is not the responsibility of every person to seek out what should be put in plain view of everyone. You turn on Spike or MTV2 or Versus and it’s there on a consistent basis. Three seasons of Bully Beatdown. 13 seasons of Ultimate Fighter.
Boxing is starting to catch up with the Super 6, but their complacency in promoting has led to this downfall.
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by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
well
its not necessarily just that. A realistic ‘competitor’ grew and siphoned off some of the market. The promoting obviously could be better, but that’s always been the case – its never been perfect or anything.
"I live what you talk. I Live What You Talk.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
sure
however it’s also been at a level far worse than “could have been better”. It was shit for the upside of a decade.
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by Cory Braiterman on Jul 5, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
well it struggles
in comparison to the UFC, certainly.
"I live what you talk. I Live What You Talk.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
to be honest though
I can’t really talk over that period in any depth on the quality of promoting – more just on the last 2/3 years when I thought about stuff like promotional issues rather than just the fights. If its shit relative to back then, it is what it is. But in terms of the sport in general, there have been a lot of great fights this year – certainly relative to last year, anyway, so we could be on the up overall.
"I live what you talk. I Live What You Talk.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
That is one of my points.
I tuned in for sooo many stinkers over the years that I don’t risk paying for a PPV. They do a horrible job hyping fighters or they over hype guys and they lay an egg. I do miss boxing but MMA has my heart and my dollars now.
Free Boxing on HBO and Showtime has been entertaining me quite a bit in the last year.
The last few fights that I’ve enjoyed would be the Broner KO prior to Canelo’s latest, Hopkins/Pascal 2, Maidana/Morales, Berto/Ortiz, Marquez/Katsidis to name a few.
That's not free TV if you have to pay a subscription for an individual channel
“Free” in the loosest sense means cable TV, and boxing currently only has some remote crap on FSN and Friday Night Fights on ESPN2, which has become the ultimate wasteland for over-the-hill fighters and a few prospects.
One of the problems with boxing as a TV viewing sport in America is they’ve shown no desire to remain relevant in the non-PPV market.
So close and yet so far. The story of my sports fandom.
if they put Pacquiao vs Mayweather on NBC
Super Bowl numbers?
I think big boxing used to only be on network, then maybe it went to closed circuit or something? Someone help me out here.
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
Super Bowl numbers indeed
But boxing hasn’t been on network TV in nearly a decade when NBC aired the occasional Sunday prospect card.
Big boxing was frequently on Wide World of Sports or CBS Sports Spectacular.
So close and yet so far. The story of my sports fandom.
Boxing wouldn’t come close to Super Bowl numbers. Maybe not even Daytona 500 numbers. And when PPV creates 100 million in revenue for megafights? Yeah. Not gonna happen.
Boxing started on network TV with weekly broadcasts, then transitioned to closed circuit for megafights with replays on network TV. It went to HBO and Showtime because they were willing to pay 5/10X what the networks were for big fights.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
At this point boxing fans are conditioned to believe that fights off HBO or Showtime are comparatively irrelevant. Part of the other issue here with arguing about it to MMA fans is that the biggest market for boxing is one that basically doesn’t care about MMA and is thus not represented here to discuss where it is being televised outside of ESPN2.
by VirtualBalboa on Jul 5, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
An MMA fan's perspective.
I keep trying to like boxing. Honestly. I’ve seen some great fights, but the majority have been dissapointing. I’ve seen heavyweight freakshows that make the Giant Silva fights look good, I’ve seen the clinch to ride out a 7 point advantage for 3 rounds, and I’ve seen fights like the Haye nightmare that left me completely baffled as to why he even bothered to show up.
I like great boxing. The problem as I see it is that it’s lacking real compeditive fights on a regular basis. Frankly, I’d rather watch Olympic boxing then the average title fight from the last 2 years. I’m going checking out the big events, but I really really hope it gets a bit easier to sit through.
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I used to love boxing before MMA blew up.
I’d watch Wayne McCullough’s fights on USA Network all the time back in the mid 90s — Friday Night Fights or something it was called… and man, I loved watching him go out there and throw punches non-stop until his opponents succumbed to a sheer avalanche of hits.
But when MMA blew up, boxing started feeling kind of slow and old. I’d love to be able to get back into it, but nothing about it excites me. The last fight I really enjoyed was Oscar De La Hoya vs Felix Trinidad in like ’99 I think it was, but then when they gave that fight to Felix I knew once and for all that boxing was fixed and lost interest.
The only substitute for victory is overkill.
I think USA had Tuesday Night Fights
It was a little before my time. Because I was so young, I’d tune in and be like “How come the Undertaker isn’t on there?”
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
You knew boxing was fixed when a guy ran away from his opponent for the last 3 rounds and lost a close decision?
He brutalized Trinidad
He was so far ahead on points he could have laid on the canvas for 9 second intervals for the last 3 rounds and should have won by an enormous margin.
The only substitute for victory is overkill.
by Underhand Left on Jul 5, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
De La Hoya tried to teach Felix a "boxing lesson" at our expense.
I saw that fight live and it was scored right IMO.
I loved Tito
and I still say the crossdresser got robbed.
Great Job Anthony.
I was pretty pissed off about Josh’s piece but wasn’t in a position to run a rebuttal as I was out of town.
You did a great job of saying many of the things I wanted to say.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 5, 2011 5:38 PM EDT reply actions
I was wondering why you didn’t show up for some rebuttals in that comment section.
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.
Josh’s piece ignored the tons of other fights in boxing built around “blood feuds” which actually delivered and focused on a heavyweight fight that played out in a totally predictable way given the style of Wladimir. It also ignores the fact that fights with “huge stars” like Rampage/Hamill, GSP most of the time..etc. Sometimes suck.
Yeah, Haye/Klitschko sucked. If it had been good…the next set of heavyweight fights probably would have sucked anyway. Heavyweight boxing is bad. But fights like Rios/Antillon this coming Saturday are almost always awesome and aren’t nearly as rare as people like to pretend. They’re also usually seen by 700,000 – 1,500,000 people on Showtime and HBO despite claims that no one cares or watches.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 5, 2011 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
And a lot of people complain about boxing not building up stars on their undercards like the UFC does
Brandon Rios is exactly that: a potential star getting his rub from being on a Manny undercard.
AS GOD AS MY WITNESS, HE IS BROKEN IN HALF.

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