UFC 132 Results: The Day MMA Won The Combat Sports War
by Josh Nason on Jul 3, 2011 10:32 AM EDT
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If there was ever a day that illustrated the vast chasm between MMA and boxing, it was Saturday, July 2nd. If this was a war, boxing would have waved the white flag. Over. Done. Kaput.
These days, I consider myself a "pink hat" boxing fan at best, a term i first heard used by hardcore Boston Red Sox fans to describe the influx of mainstream fans after 2004. I won't order pay-per-views (PPV) but I do watch selected HBO/Showtime replays of fights with names I'm familiar with.
Back in the last boom period of the heavyweight division (Tyson, Bowe, Lewis, Holyfield, Moorer, Foreman and even that dastardly Golota) and when Roy Jones Jr. and Oscar De La Hoya ruled the combat sports world, I was hooked. Now, I couldn't care less other than results or opining at how dumb it is that Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquaio haven't yet fought.
But a fight Saturday did peak my interest thanks to a viral clip of promotional trash talk that felt a little different. Wladimir Klitschko (owner of some collection of heavyweight titles) and David Haye (also a titleholder, I guess) seemed to really not like each other. Haye was promising to knock out Klitschko among other things and the Ukranian actually looked genuinely angry at Haye's taunts.
When I saw the fight was on pay cable and after reading about the hype on the interwebs, I decided to order HBO and rearranged my Saturday to check it out. For the first time in years, I (and many others) were genuinely excited to see a heavyweight boxing match -- even one held in a monsoon in Hamburg, Germany. A great fight between two champions that hate each other and not on PPV? Sign me up.
Then, the fight happened. My excitement dwindled with each passing round. Haye seemed content to play defense and flop on the canvas at the slightest bit of contact, looking to the referee for help. Klitschko never carried over the outside the ring anger and plodded his way through another dull unanimous decision victory -- not exactly what I was looking for in a heavyweight title fight.
It got so bad that HBO announcers Jim Lampley and Larry Merchant (the same duo I watched more than 20 years ago) were chastising Haye throughout the fight for not engaging. Overall, it was dreadful. When the people that are supposed to be keeping you interested turn on the fight after a few rounds, that's bad news.
A few minutes after the "fight" concluded, the prelims for UFC 132 started on Facebook, led off by two newcomers named Jeff Hougland and Donny Walker. In front of a light crowd (seemingly now a tradition for UFC events in Las Vegas), Hougland and Walker went 15 strong and spirited minutes in an effort to get noticed and secure employment.
Of course they have to fight hard, you say. They're not guaranteed deals! That's the thing: everyone from the curtain-jerkers to the stars on UFC 132 fought hard, contributing to one of the best events in recent history.
At one point, there were three straight KOs and four straight finishes. Five of the evening's 11 fights ended in the first round, much to the delight of the Las Vegas audience and those watching 'round the world. Guys were getting after it and the end result mattered. Tito Ortiz saved his career. Chris Leben may have ended Wanderlei Silva's. Carlos Condit likely earned a title shot. (And that was just three of the fights on the main card.)
And then, there was the main event -- a 135-pound title scrap between two rivals (Dominick Cruz and Urijah Faber) that was as heated as Mayweather and Pacquaio promised to be but with a twist: they actually fought.
For five rounds, Cruz and Faber did what champions do: try and win. Both men emptied their gas tank and tried, which at the end of the day is all we really ask for as fight fans. If the guys/girls in the cage aren't going to give it their all, why should the paying consumer care?
On the flip side, I read that Klitschko and Haye was a title unification bout but let's be real: the titles in boxing are meaningless. As Haye avoided being hit and Klitschko threw some half-hearted punches, I asked myself what they were fighting for (in reality, just money) and if they already earned that before they even stepped in the ring, what's the motivation to do the same as Cruz and Faber did?
Among a myriad of issues, that is ultimately the problem with boxing. Their stars simply don't give a shit. Haye had been pining for a shot at either Klitschko brother for years, even making up shirts of him holding both Klitschko brothers' severed heads. He then gets his shot and lays a giant stinky egg in Germany. What the h? Does boxing want fans? Where's the passion? I don't get it.
You don't need to me to sit here and tell you that MMA surpassed boxing years ago, but here's what you need to remember any time these charlatans attempt to sell you a boxing fight that "matters": July 2, 2011 -- a day when two sets of fighters with blood feuds went to war with one set actually remembering what they were supposed to do.
More UFC 132 coverage from BE after the jump.
- Post-Fight Recap and Analysis - Mike Fagan
- The Day MMA Won The Combat Sports War - Josh Nason
- Why the Bantamweight Division Needs Dominick Cruz vs. Urijah Faber 3 - Fraser Coffeen
- Bloody Elbow Radio UFC 132 Review
- Dominick Cruz Defeats Urijah Faber By Decision - Josh Nason
- Post-Fight Press Conference Video
- Chris Leben Knocks Out Wanderlei Silva In 27 Seconds - Josh Nason
- Tito Ortiz Fends Off Retirement - Matt Bishop
- Tito Ortiz vs. Ryan Bader Fight Video Highlights - ESPN
- Tito Ortiz Submits Ryan Bader In The First Round - Josh Nason
- Dennis Siver Defeats Matt Wiman By Close Decision - Josh Nason
- Carlos Condit Knocks Out Dong Hyun Kim In The First Round - Josh Nason
- Melvin Guillard Knocks Out Shane Roller In First Round - Josh Nason
- Rafael dos Anjos Knocks Out George Sotiropoulos In 59 Seconds - Josh Nason
- Brian Bowles Defeats Takeya Mizugaki by Unanimous Decision - Leland Roling
- Anthony Njokuani Dominates Andre Winner - Leland Roling
- Aaron Simpson Puts Brad Tavares Through the Grinder - Leland Roling
- Jeff Hougland Showcases Diverse Skills, Decisions Donny Walker - Leland Roling
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the titles in boxing are meaningless
They aren’t though, are they?
Wlad has the Ring title. Without trying to be rude, calling that title meaningless just comes off as ignorant IMO.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 10:23 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
c'mon
How many titles were up for grabs in yesterdays fight? Despite each guy being accused of fighting cans for the past 5-10 yrs, all of these titles were won in title fights that no one gave a shit about. When there are 6-8 belts in each division, that’s the very definition of meaningless, or at the very least, watered down titles.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Like I said, the Ring title still means something. Certain UFC titles are hardly enshrined in credibility themselves.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
The titles anybody cares about are the Ring, WBC, WBA, WBO and IBF.
In terms of which one is top, everybody wants the Ring belt as it is the lineal title, after that it varies by division. Looking at the heavyweight division in recent years, I’d say the WBC and IBF titles hold more credibility than the WBA and WBO ones.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m no more of a fan of the alphabet soup championships in titles than anybody else is, but there is still credibility there.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
thats...
a lot of titles. There’s a reason people complain about the alphabet soup and one of the reasons mixed martial arts is doing pretty well for itself: UFC belt or bust.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 3, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
One reason I like reading Bad Left Hook is because they don’t buy into the alphabet soup titles. They only recognize one champion, the Ring champion, and consider all other so called “champions” to be title holders. I strongly encourage everyone here to go read Bad Left Hook, they got me way more into boxing then I was a year ago. Scott Christ is one of the finest writers in all of SB Nation in my opinion.
by DodgerFan86 on Jul 3, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
One of the reasons there is a "fictional"/"lineal" title in the first place...
Is this crazy alphabet soup. If I understand correctly, the existence of the Ring “belt” implies that the others are not particularly valid.
That said, I’m not a die-hard Lineal Title believer. Fedor had the lineal title and passed it to Werdum, and we all saw how worthy Werdum was of holding that title when he buttflopped his way to global embarrassment against Overeem.
The problem with the lineal title being held by Fedor is that his skills atrophied over the years, unbeknownst to the world, and if he fought guys that aren’t in the top 10, no one had the chance to realise that he was no longer the best HW. So pure lineal with no adjustments for such aberrations doesn’t sit well with me.
UFC titles?
Those are the belts in the sport that matter- there acre certainly MMA titles, which you may have intended to say, that lack credibility, but at least there’s only one per division per promotion. That’s an important element of titles, one which boxing used to have. It’s great that you’re a boxing fan and all, but if you’re going to deny that MMA’s ascendancy and boxing’s decline are continuing, then we don’t really have much to discuss. Boxing can still put together fights that can attain heights in buildup and popularity that MMA fights cannot, but in terms of what these fights actually look like- there’s just not much comparison.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
The Ring heavyweight title has more credibility than the UFC heavyweight title.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
In 2011?
ok
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
As far as lineage?
The Ring title is clearly superior to the UFC title. For the longest time it was a glorified silver medal, and now it’s the #1 fighter in the weight class even though it’s never been contested by the former #1 or by his conquerors? That doesn’t add up.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jul 3, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
sorry- but lineage does not = relevance
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It has a pretty big hand to play in a a title’s credibility though.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
not when...
the #1 and #2 HWs won’t fight each other.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Because they're fucking brothers...
what a stupid complaint.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jul 3, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
it's not stupid...
if the Rings title is so sacred because it tracks only the best guys fighting each other, then having it skip a step taints that sanctity. Brothers or no- it represents an event that lessens the legitimacy of the title.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
How is it skipping a step?
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Skipping over the #2 HW to have 1 and 3 fight.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a unique situation where the best two heavyweights in the world are brothers. You can tell you’re reaching when this is what you use to question the title’s credibility.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
you're right
I’m totally off base with my reasoning. There is absolutely no issue with boxing’s title award system and we have a clear cut picture who the best fighter in each division is. Thanks for helping me see the light. My screename will now be Cus D’Amato’s Empathy and I hereby revoke my BE membership.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
WTF man
This shit is not playing patty cakes. You can get permanently injured in a boxing match (or MMA match, or whatever).
Imagine Vitali hospitalizes Vlad with permanent brain damage as a result of the fight. Is that an acceptable outcome to you? One brother seriously injures the other so you know “who’s better”?
I swear sometimes MMA fans act like the athletes are actually gladiators (read slaves) and should do whatever the fans feel necessary to entertain them, personal autonomy over their careers/lives be damned.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
It must be that pre-UFC event gladiator thing.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
That promo is so tired
I think its a reactionary stance to the power that individual boxers have over their careers. MMA fans see this as a bad thing, seemingly by nature.
Its not that simple. Yes, it has kept some dream fights from happening. But it also allows the athlete to have a certain amount of control over their careers, their lives. There has to be a balance. That power can’t all be concentrated in either figher or promoter imo.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Jesus dude...
why would one human ever willingly do that to another? Every single fight can be broken down into that kind of risk- you’re apparently not comprehending what you’re reading- I’m not saying that they should fight- I’m using it as an example to show that circumstance prevents you from attaining the kind of purity of lineage that some people in this thread have professed the Ring belt to have.
And while these are violent sports- some people don’t employ rage or intent to injure in their approach while others need it- the Overeem brothers are willing to fight each other, good friends are often willing to fight each other- I don’t begrudge those who don’t. Everyone’s entitled to their own approach based on how they approach the fight.
Ask a question or re-read an argument before jumping to conclusions.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Every single fight can be broken down into that kind of risk
There’s no difference between hospitalizing a stranger vs your own brother? Oh man I’d hate to have you as a blood relative.
if the Rings title is so sacred because it tracks only the best guys fighting each other, then having it skip a step taints that sanctity. Brothers or no- it represents an event that lessens the legitimacy of the title.
So you are arguing that the sanctity of the Ring belt is tainted because these two brothers won’t fight each other.
I’m not saying that they should fight
So your position is that the one thing you think could legitimize the HW belt shouldn’t happen? Why not?
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
you're being needlessly contentious
There’s no difference between hospitalizing a stranger vs your own brother? Oh man I’d hate to have you as a blood relative.
You think it’s fine to hospitalize someone so long as they’re not blood- Oh man, I’d hate to be your neighbor. Obviously I recognize the difference, but if you want to bring up the risk of permanent injury/death, then you shouldn’t be too psyched about doing that to anyone- even a stranger. Thankfully, we’re in an age of high level training and regulation- the chances of those things happening are miniscule, but again, I respect someone who doesn’t want to prizefight a brother or friend- just as I respect fighters who feel differently. Again, I’m not speaking about the brothers, I’m looking at the effect on the lineage of the “best HW fighter in the world.”
So you are arguing that the sanctity of the Ring belt is tainted because these two brothers won’t fight each other.
I’m saying that this is but one example of why the lineage isn’t “pure,” and that if you trace it back, you’ll find plenty of examples of circumstance preventing said purity. If you look to other divisions, you’ll see the fractured landscape getting in the way along the line- my point is that there’s more to a title’s relevance than lineage- it’s also about defending to legitimate contenders which is predicated on divisional depth. 1 legitimate contender in 8 years should be unacceptable to the fans of any sport and to the legacy of top fighters.
So your position is that the one thing you think could legitimize the HW belt shouldn’t happen? Why not?
Because I’m a civil fan who hates the gladiator intro to UFC’s and respect a guy’s decision to not want to fight his brother. Did I just blow your mind? My argument is not with the Klitschkos- my argument is with people who claim that because a champion wins a title from his predecessor, then that somehow legitimizes a career of defenses against mediocre talent. The quality of a belt will always be based on how many times you defend it against elite talent- my initial point in this conversation is that the UFC is working towards this goal while boxing is working away from it. If you have some salient points on that matter, I’d love to hear them. If you want to browbeat me with assumptions you’ve made by reading part of an internet discussion, then run along to Sherdog.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
It took 19 comments and an op-ed by you to for me to realize that you were arguing that the K Bros not fighting each other hurts the legitimacy of the Ring title, but that you’re ok with them not fighting each other.
Cool. I assumed you were saying that they should fight for the legitimacy of the Ring belt, but you think its illegitimate to begin with (for vague reasons you would only allude to).
I am of the opinion that if its cool for the K Bros not to fight each other, then not fighting each other doesn’t take away from the legitimacy of the belt. Normally it would, but brother vs brother fighting each other is a circumstance that I’m willing to say doesn’t need to happen to fulfill my need for “legitimacy”.
1 legitimate contender in 8 years should be unacceptable to the fans of any sport and to the legacy of top fighters.
Please define legitimate. If legitimate means the best fight that can be made, all these years of defenses are legit. If the challenger can’t compete with the champ, its not the champ or sports fault. Is GSP’s title run any less legit because he’s so dominant over them?
my argument is with people who claim that because a champion wins a title from his predecessor, then that somehow legitimizes a career of defenses against mediocre talent.
Same point as before. Does being a dominant champion somehow delegitimize both the competition and the belt? My opinion is that it does not. The K Bros never ducked anyone and really are that good. Its not their fault they’re putting the best guys they can fight to shame.
my initial point in this conversation is that the UFC is working towards this goal while boxing is working away from it.
This shit is needlessly broad and really doesn’t mean much because of it. What would you say the Super 6 was? a step away from legitimacy? 3 or 4 champs enter and the belt was on the line every time. They are planning Bantanmweight tourneys and even a jr welterwieght one if i’m not mistaken. Boxing isn’t dying because of MMA, its recreating itself because of it. Boxing will get better as it reacts to MMA’s success.
Boxing has problems, and MMA definitely does alot of things right that boxing does wrong, but to point to boxing and say “You can’t even tell who the real champ is” is a croc. Its the Ring champ, whether you would like to admit it or not.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What step is it skipping?
He fought the top HW outside of his brother. The fact that you’re trying to make this into a sticking point while defending the UFC title’s shaky credibility is laughable.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jul 3, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Both titles have shaky credibility
the only difference is that the UFC’s is coming from no credibility and Rings is coming from irrefutable credibility.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Rephrase, I have no clue what you're saying.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jul 3, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Not fighting your brother is like not fighting your friends
The fans won’t appreciate it, and neither will the UFC. But I suppose you’re maintaining your version of professional and personal integrity.
Au contraire
Do you know how a Ring title is awarded? Either a guy has to have beaten the Ring champion in his weight class or, in the event that the previous champ retired/went to a different weight it is awarded to the winner of a bout between the #1 and #2 guys in the division (#1 and #3 in the case of Wlad but that’s only because his brother was #2). The UFC HW title was never contested by Fedor, the long time HW champ, or by Werdum/Bigfoot (or Overeem at this point), and yet Cain Velasquez is number 1 in the world? How does that work?
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jul 3, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Because we’re entering into a period where all of those fights are possible. And you actually just proved the flaw in the Ring title- if the lineage is so sacred, then it got befouled by the Klitchkos not fighting each other, which is the only relevant HW fight that exists in boxing.
After the SF tourney if/when the tourney winner fights the UFC beltholder, it will increase the legitimacy, but it’s plenty legit right now. To see your comments, it’s as if there are no flaws in bopxing and all this talk if its struggles as a sport and business are baseless….wake up man.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
John Danaher's Hair is spot on.
Look how far boxing has fallen in the US alone. Tyson, Holyfield, Ali, Foreman, Sugar Ray, Hagler, Hearns etc. I havent watched a boxing match since Tyson vs. Holyfield 2. Boxing has lost it’s luster, not because the boxers are less fighters. Boxing is suffering from it’s promoters. If Don King and Bob Arum would consolidate and unify the titles, fans would win. Right now, boxers and promoters are winning. Fans are left with shitty fight cards and may get to see 2 big fights in a calendar year if they are lucky. Fighters and promoters stand to lose too much money so I don’t expect any change. So, another generation is gonna focus attention else where and boxing will continue it’s downward spiral towards irrelevance.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
...what are you talking about?
There are obviously problems in boxing, I never said otherwise. The problem is that you speak out of ignorance about things like the UFC title, a promotional title that by it’s very nature is highly flawed and only tells you the best fighter in that specific promotion, being more legitimate and valuable than a Ring title that is only awarded to the best fighter in the division. Your comments give me the impression that you’re at best an extremely casual boxing fan and a hardcore MMA fan yet you want to speak with authority on what’s wrong with boxing without a clear understanding of the subject matter. That bugs me.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jul 3, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
who the fuck is trying to be an authority?
I’m pointing out the things in boxing that I don’t like. Having top fighters under one promotion is a very important concept in combat sports and is at the root of the reason that boxing has fallen out of favor. The UFC has always been one promotion of many, but the majority of top fighters in each division have resided there for some time, and those top guys fight each other. I can’t say the same for boxing.
The boxing titles may have a richer history than the major MMA belts, but they also have a 200 year head start. From the UFC’s absorption of SF going forward, the UFC belts will have the lineage and relevance that the boxing belts had 50 years ago. That relevance has been diminished in the past few years while the UFC’s has increased, I don’t see how this can be disputed.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The “under one promotion” complaint is not nearly as big of problem as MMA fans think. Boxing is nothing like mma, the fighters are protected by the Ali act which means a fighter can’t be permanently tied up under a champions clause to keep cross promoted fight from happening. It is the champions clause that keeps the mma superfights from happening and which also keeps fighters from making anything close to what Klitchsko and Haye made yesterday. (it’s also these huge paydays that tie things up forever.)
The superiority of the Ring title over the UFC’s is that an outside body determines the #1 contender instead of the promotion, so that we don’t get undeserving fighters jumping to the top while others toil on 8 or 9-fight win streaks in the background because the promoter doesn’t like them. The weakness is they can’t mandate the fight. Both sports could use some tinkering in my opinion.
by John Nash on Jul 3, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There will always be a subjective element to matchmaking...
but as Zuffa consolidates its talent, we should have much better cases made for title shots than has previously been displayed. Though even now, there aren’t many title fights in the UFC that egregiously feature undeserving fighters. They exist, for sure, but today boxing’s are more frequent.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Currently Nick DIaz is getting a fight ahead of Fitch, Silva is coming off a defense against a Belfort who hadn’t fought in 15-months previously and whose fight before wasn’t even a MW fight, JDS is finally getting a title shot even though his career path was much more difficult than Cain or Carwins, Jon Jones is fighting Rampage and not Evans, we were saved from an Anthony Pettis title fight by a draw but can’t get a UFC champ vs Melendez bout, and we may get a rematch of Cruz-Faber because there is no marketable fighters in their division. None of theses fights are egregious but all of them show a motivated slant towards marketability over relevance by the UFC.
Plus, purely from my own ideological stance, I can’t ask fighters to give up their leverage and hand over a huge chunk of the dollars spent just so we’re happy having one promoter dictating everything.
I didn't say they didn't exist
but compared to their boxing counterparts, UFC champions fight more credible contenders. I don’t blame the fighters, nor even the promoters entirely- it’s more a systemic flaw.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
This is an example of why lineal doesn't work all the time
Cain is “consensus” #1 due to a combination of the UFC belt and the people he’s beaten and who they’ve beaten to get to where they were. Based on the history of each fighter, people vote to decide who they think has proven themselves to be strongest. Then it’s compiled using an algorithm to make the votes consistent (e.g. some votes don’t rank all the top 25 so the points are adjusted). That’s how it works, and IMHO it gives us the best view of who’s the #1, as opposed to lineal – which would have given it to Werdum, post the Fedor fight. And that would be a joke since we know Werdum got his ass handed to him by JDS; in hindsight he threw away the match vs Overeem, and most people currently believe Cain would beat him.
not gonna win that argument here
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
I'd agree to an extent.
At least the Ring Champion became the champ by fighting the highest ranked contender after him. Can’t say the same for a belt that was never contested by Fedor when he was on top for years and years.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jul 3, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
no sir
the average sports fan couldn’t tell you jack about which titles in boxing mean what. It probably means something to the fighters and the diehard fans, but let’s call a spade a spade: you say UFC and people know what you’re talking about. You say Ring title and most people will say ‘wat’.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 3, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
what?
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jul 3, 2011 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
que?
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 4, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of ignorant...
"I can be friends with anybody. Man. Woman. Cat. Dog. Fish..... Alien." -Rampage
by Charles Awad on Jul 3, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
first thing you are right sir
second thing i didn’t need to watch that fight because i already knew who would win. haye is really a light heavyweight fighter. the fight didn’t happen before because haye was the one talking but ducking the fight, choosing to fight the 7 foot monster who he knew he could outpoint whih his speed to get his belt first. before finally setting up to do what i knew he would do collect a check. third thing boxing is bad now because of politics of the sport. once a fighter gets a belt if he is under certain management. they don’t want him to unify. they pick his challenegers it sucks. if boxing could go back to how it was just ten years ago that at least the champs would go for the top three belts. then it would get back to being better
Jack
If there are 5 HW titles, how is 1 any more relevant then the other 4? I really believe that is the point. I firmly believe that too. I think the only thing boxing could do to regain it’s credibility is to consolidate all the titles into 1 for every weight class. Boxing need 1 dominate org similar to the UFC has in MMA.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Simple, the Ring title is the lineal title.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Well lineal title or not, there are 5 champs. Casual fans do not know what a lineal title is.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
I always hear people complain about casual fans in MMA, about them booing the ground game, about them wanting every fight to end in a first round KO, about them not understanding the intricacies of the game, and yet their opinions suddenly become relevant as soon as a boxing title is mentioned. This is aimed just at you, it’s something I’ve noticed in the past as well and have never really got.
Like I said before, I don’t like that there are so many titles, but boxing still has credibility with or without it.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Boxing doesn't have near the credibilty it could have.
I guess in closing that is what I’ll leave you with Jack. That is the point I think is holding back boxing. The UFC will not be lacking any credibility, especially after all the Strikeforce champs unify the belts against UFC champs. I will say it again, the promoters are hurting boxing, they are only helping themselves and the boxers. Fans are given the middle finger and that is that.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Great piece
I was also struck by the contrast between the 2 shows- especially that pretentious and ridiculous avate garde intro featuring the fake boxing gym, soundstage, German movie goers, Lennox Lewis picking David Haye up from a club(??!!) and Vitali Klitschko and George Foreman reading a paper….sure, MMA events have stinker main events at times- the difference is the amount and intensity of undercard fights and the length of the 12 round main event- they just drag on and on and on. By the 8th round of the boxing match, the only drama left was whether Haye would actually throw more than 6 punches a round in an effort to win, or if he’d just go away and count his money quietly.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 10:27 AM EDT reply actions
was also struck by the contrast between the 2 shows- especially that pretentious and ridiculous avate garde intro featuring the fake boxing gym, soundstage, German movie goers, Lennox Lewis picking David Haye up from a club(??!!) and Vitali Klitschko and George Foreman reading a paper…
that was entirely the doing of German television production. the thing was shown on German/Euro equivalent of either network TV or basic cable, and they wanted the thing to be entertaining.
"A guy in Texas came up to me and told me ‘Frye you're not mixed martial arts, you're no holds barred’, and I said you're god damn right partner." ~ Don Frye
well, dude
i’ve seen some German television – and while i didn’t see the intro to the fight, that doesn’t sound too out of the ordinary.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jul 3, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd say MMA won the fight when it decided to allow more than punches...
But last night was the most-hyped HW boxing fight in ages … and it flopped (literally, from what I’ve read). Incredible action & finishes, and a war to close it out. Did any moment from the boxing card match Condit’s flying knee & follow up or seeing the “gravedigger” routine again?
I love this sport.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Did any moment from the boxing card match Condit’s flying knee & follow up or seeing the "gravedigger" routine again?
Watch the Afolabi/Dunstan knockout.
I love MMA, but I love boxing just as much. I just don’t see the need for bitchy, false diatribes about one winning a war over the other.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
My problem is that boxing is so rediculously imited.
My dad introduced it to me as a child, but we stopped watching it together when I kept asking why they couldn’t kick each other. I’m not even discussing the politics behind boxing; I think as a combat sport, it’s not very interesting compared to the rest.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
And that’s fine to feel that way, but it still doesn’t mean MMA has won this “war” with boxing.
I love MMA for variety, its dynamism, its immediate, instant momentum shifts, its sheer drama. But at the same time I love boxing for its specialist nature, the level of expertise on display, the amount of heart shown when you can’t clinch, can’t initiate a takedown, can’t try to pull guard and are forced to stand a fight it out when you’re hurt. I love boxing for the fight narratives it gives you (an area where it edges MMA IMO), the characters it springs and the national and international rivalries it builds.
MMA is a great sport, but boxing is too. To see either disrespected, by combat sports fans no less, always dismays me slightly.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
The "war" thing is overdone, yes.
There’s no war between MMA and the other combat sports. I think it’s that boxing was top dog for so much of the 20th Century, and now it’s threatened. I just don’t like it as a sport because of it’s limited technique – punches only. It’s dull.
In an effort to develop an appreciation for boxing, I watched Corrales/Castillo 1. I was bored through it. Just isn’t my thing.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
go watch the ward-gatti trilogy
i personally love boxing, but at the end of the day it just makes me hate it
why are there 17 weight divisions? why are there countless belts in each division? why is everything on ppv? and why did don king, bob arum and all the other shady dirty promoters need to exist?
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
But where?
I looked for DVDs a while ago, found nothing. Only snippets on youtube. Where can I get that?
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
You are trying really hard here, maybe too hard. I think a lot of people get too wrapped up in these discussions and take them way too seriously. There is no war and there never will be a “winner” except for fans who get to see good combat sport action on a regular basis. Still that doesn’t mean people can’t compare the two.
Jack, you are prolly right.
I used to be a huge boxing fan. I would follow boxing again if not for the promoters and egos of the fighters. Boxing needs to realize who is paying them. The fans, and if you dont give the fans what they want, good night.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
the Unified rules make MMA fights realistically as limited as any boxing match.
but instead of, at its best, seeing elite level hand speed and punching, you get, at MMA’s best, great “jack of all trades” fighters. both are limited by their respective rule sets, however.
"A guy in Texas came up to me and told me ‘Frye you're not mixed martial arts, you're no holds barred’, and I said you're god damn right partner." ~ Don Frye
I don't know how you can say that
Unified Rules limits some strikes and moves that are dangerous (eye gouge, groin kick, back of head) but the range of possibilities is still far more than boxing rules.
And of course the fighters have to be well rounded or they can’t win. If you like experts in one particular area, they you could watch boxing, BJJ, wrestling, or eye-poking.
Unified Rules limits some strikes and moves that are dangerous (eye gouge, groin kick, back of head) but the range of possibilities is still far more than boxing rules.
doesn’t make for better fights, though. what I was referring to was the original poster’s comment about how boxing is so limited. to me, some of the Unified Rules (no knees to grounded opponent, no soccer kicks) are the reason that guys like Lentz, Fitch, and Guida do so well despite very limited fighting abilities, and in effect nullifies the abilities of better fighters to actually fight. so in that sense, I feel like we’ve seen MMA in many instances become more limited than even boxing.
And of course the fighters have to be well rounded or they can’t win. If you like experts in one particular area, they you could watch boxing, BJJ, wrestling, or eye-poking.
so what you’re saying is, you prefer broad mediocrity to particularized excellence?
"A guy in Texas came up to me and told me ‘Frye you're not mixed martial arts, you're no holds barred’, and I said you're god damn right partner." ~ Don Frye
Less high quality Boxing per year than MMA
Less on free television, and they get paid significantly more and end up doing nothing to justify their grossly excessive pay.
Once Pacquiao is out of the picture, Boxing is fucked especially if Mayweather can’t sort his legal shit out.
i think pac is on his way out
he keeps complaining about his legs after his fights. the roids are killing his body. he is starting to break down already hahahahaha
Once Pacquiao is out of the picture, Boxing is fucked especially if Mayweather can’t sort his legal shit out.
People said this when Ali was on top, then when Leonard was on top, then when Tyson was on top etc…
New stars come through, it’s what has always happened. Shit, people were worried about the future of HW boxing back when Dempsey retired.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
But back then there wasn’t any where for fans to go. Now MMA is growing by leaps and bounds so people are not stuck with boxing anymore.
I’d rather just climb this fridge
That doesn’t mean a new draw won’t emerge in boxing again though.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes of course, but what you said was boxing always came out on the other side when other great HWs went down. Now people don’t have to wait for a draw in boxing anymore like they have in the past, MMA is right there with stars popping out left right and center.
Boxing never had to deal with another combat sport gaining ground on them. Right now a few stumbles in the boxing world means that MMA gains more ground on them. Boxing has 100 years of history thus never going any where, but it could very well become second in the combat sports world in the next 10 years.
I’d rather just climb this fridge
Keep hoping
There’s no signs of a up and coming fighter that will capture the audience’s imagination. Boxing might as well be an underground sport when pacquiao and mayweather go at this rate.
Victor Ortiz, Saul Alvarez, and (sadly) JCC Jr.
Are already pulling in big numbers on television, and they are all under 25
as one of those casual pink hat boxing fans
that was mentioned in the article and a pretty big sports fan in general, i have no goddamn clue who any of those people are other than Chavez, Jr.
While I’m at it, my knowledge on him would fill a spoon. Maybe.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 3, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
If you watch HBO boxing with any regularity
You should know Ortiz and Alvarez. They’ve both been undercard staples for at least a couple of years.
You should know Alvarez for the same reason a casual fan of the WEC would know Scott Jorgensen- they both look… unique. Spotty Scotty is, well, spotty. And Canelo (aka Cinnamon) is a ginger Mexican.
Also, Yuriorkis Gamboa has been wrecking fools left and right. Keep an eye out for him.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Right now, they are not on the lips of casuals
but Chavez Jr. and Alvarez are gigantic stars in Mexico, which alone will be a major source of eyeballs and income for boxing in the years ahead.
Admittedly, I’m not sure how far Ortiz goes. He has a shot in September against Floyd Jr. to become a mega-star. At the very worst, he should be a long-time HBO headliner.
I'm very casual as well
I’ve never been a huge fan of boxing by any means, but I used to watch whatever fight I could find on a regular basis. I now watch the boxing after dark on hbo on the regular. Ortiz is the guy that just outworked Berto right? Alvarez is getting a lot of hype and I saw the JCC/Sebastian fight. Other than those guys, King Khan is making some noise along with Alexander and a handful of lhw fighters…other than those guys I’m not really aware of any others.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jul 3, 2011 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
MMA was growing by leaps and bounds. But at least the BE articles in the last couple of weeks have sworn up and down that it is stagnating now?
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
Yet most UFC fans
Want to see two guys go in and slug it out.
Because at least they will
And not the plodding, jabbing crapfest that is Boxing today. No one takes risks in Boxing any more. Not even calculated ones.
Your ignorance shines through more and more when you post about boxing
Did you see Sergio Martinez Paul Williams 2? Go watch that fight and tell me no one takes chances in boxing any more. Have you watched any of Tomaz Adamek’s rise from Cruiserweight to Heavyweight? Pac vs HAtton? Pac vs MArgarito? Any fucking mexican fighters ever?
It sounds like you don’t watch the sport but have a whole lot of ignorant shit to say about it.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Sergio Martinez has to be one of the most exciting fighters on the planet right now of any sport. That man brings it every time. Adamek is awesome to. I’ve loved that guy ever since he beat Chris Arreola. After the fight, they asked him any of Arreola’s shots hurt him, and he said “No, I am Highlander!”
I was fucking amazed by that fight
To that point I’d only ever see Adamek take a buttload of punishment and the 1 punch KO fools later in the rounds… I’d never seen him box. Then he came out against Arreola, took one punch flush and started boxing from range. I didn’t think he had it in him.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I hear this same argument about MMA all the time
by RoB_ex on Jul 3, 2011 12:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
mma kicked boxings ass on saturday
and it will continue to do so, do you ever see any mma fighters constantly duck their adversaries? People like Floyd Mayweather destroyed anything worth salvaging in boxing, Haye vs Klitchko should have happened awhile back, and there’s a reason why the term tomato can was derived from boxing.
I think it also has alot to do with a superior promotion to other promotions such as UFC, where all the fighters are generally in the best level of competition, are hungrier due to the pay scale and level of competition.
I’m more excited about seeing a match up of Jim Miller and Melvin G. instead of a super boxing title fight.
by elmojo on Jul 3, 2011 10:32 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
GSP vs Silva isn't happening
But at least if they were Boxers, there’d be like 5 weight classes between them or something stupid. Mayweather vs Pacquiao there’s nothing in the weight difference really and yet they should have fought 2 years ago at least.
Even with GSP Silva
Yeah, they’re not fighting, but they’re champions in different weight classes and you have to agree that they’ve faced every legit contender in their division
People like Floyd Mayweather destroyed anything worth salvaging in boxing
People like Floyd Mayweather whose fights routinely sell upwards of one million PPV buys?
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“Haye seemed content to play defense and flop on the canvas at the slightest bit of contact, looking to the referee for help.”
So, it was like Overeem vs. Werdum and MMA was lucky that your comparison puts UFC 132 in direct comparison to the Klitschko bout. Wooohooo. Big win. I hate this “our sport is better than theirs”-crap in general, btw.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
by KGNLuc on Jul 3, 2011 10:33 AM EDT reply actions 9 recs
I hate this "our sport is better than theirs"-crap in general, btw.
Completely agree. It’s tedious no matter which side is spouting it.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Overeem-Werdum was not close to the biggest MMA fight in years
I’m not going to judge boxing with some cherry picked lackluster friday night fight.
The fact that you’re comparing the biggest HW boxing fight in years to a non-title fight that got 700k viewers and a $500k gate shows how much you’re reaching to make MMA look as bad as boxing.
by paythefighters on Jul 3, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Please...
…the fight got 700k viewers…but you want me to compare it to what…? Velasquez vs. Lesnar? So that’s what? 1 Million viewers? Not such a big difference. Audience is not the relevant factor here. It’s Overeem who is one of the big HW hopefuls in the sport. His fight was not in the most prominent place but if he and Werdum were UFC the fight would’ve been considered quite the big event.
Plus, my argument was that even very promising matches amongst Top-10 atheletes produce equally if not more ridiculous outcomes (Anderson Silva). That is the nature of combat sports and it is true regardless of how big a stage the fight happens on or how talented the participants are in theory.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
this was one of the greatest ppvs in a very long time
the only less than stellar fight was the wiman-siver fight and even that was pretty good
fucking amazing
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
wiman-siver...
was awesome
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
it was ok
just not on par with every other fight
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
so, what- you've become a finish-whore?
Condit-Kim was stiff and tentative until the end, Leben-Silva was .29 seconds and Guillard-Roller wasn’t even competitive. I love those kinds of fights too, but Wiman-Siver was super close throughout, didn’t have anyone gassing and just had 2 hard nosed tough dudes throwing- I loved it.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
at that point yea i did
it wasnt a bad fight by any stretch of the imagination but with tito bringing back the gravedigger routine, leben winning in 30 seconds, condit hitting kim with a flying knee melvin destroying roller, and the cruz-faber epicness the wiman-siver fight just doesnt compare
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
"Leben-Silva was .29 seconds"
Less than a second? A new record!
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Alright, nomenclature cop
How far have you got in Song of Ice and Fire?
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Still in "A Game of Thrones".
Shit just went down – Arya escaped, Ned’s a prisoner, “Crown of Gold” execution, etc.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Winter has come for the Starks..
it only gets crazier from there- btw- that was a great “Lets Mutherfuckers” last night- where did you find that fan art?
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks.
http://io9.com/5656513/geeks-guide-to-the-galaxy-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-hbo-clifford-the-big-red-dog
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Wiman looked plenty gassed in the third to me
when he was pinning Siver to the fence, ineffectually going for a takedown while getting punched repeatedly in the face.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Same here. Sad panda all night.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Jul 3, 2011 11:28 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You had to know it was a real possibility. Didn’t you get all your sadness out during the other three KO’s Silva went through in the last few years?
by paythefighters on Jul 3, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I have both fights on my DVR
I watched rounds 9-12 of the Klitschko-Haye fight and contemplated erasing it and going to watch the UFC main event in its entirety later today.
So….yeah.
That being said I think Faber played it a bit safe, maybe he thought since he dropped Cruz a couple times that he could just drag it out to the final bell. But Urijah didn’t have too many moments where I thought “Man he is going to kill this guy to get the belt”
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
MMA is stepping on other people's dreams to reach your own.
- Roxanne Modafferi
also to me if you were going call a winner in combat sports
muy thai hands down is better than mma and boxing if your going by action alone. which it seems to be what you care about. it has the different strikes, clinches, trips, slams everything but a ground game. lots of brutal action brutal knockouts really bloody. almost all major title fights are held outside no ac ladies you going have to come in excellent condition or your getting your face, ribs and legs cracked up.
I've seen plenty of MT fights...
devolve into boring, low activity clinch-fests. Every combat sport is going to have boring contests- shit, every sport period is going to have boring contests- it’s unavoidable and it’s ok.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
NO DUDE
All sports are all exciting all of the time, wtf are you even talking about man/sarcasm
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
MMA is stepping on other people's dreams to reach your own.
- Roxanne Modafferi
by The Blackula on Jul 3, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
this logic is irrefutable
sorry I got out of line
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
To me, MT has the same problem as boxing
It’s just not as real a form of combat when you have guys not having to worry about takedowns, no submissions, defending their face with big gloves, etc. Without this factor, the sporting aspect of all other combat sports is inferior to MMA, IMO. After all, that’s the whole point of MMA – combat with as few rules as society will accept.
At least boxing has history and production quality backing it up.
by paythefighters on Jul 3, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The real problem with the fight last night
wasn’t boxing specific at all
It was the same as GSP vs ____ in that one guy greatly outmatched the other, nobody can touch Klitschko right now, no one at all.
another person with some sense
another fact is both brothers use to fight that wild crazy style people liked. they learned from that not only does it not equal victory all the time. you take alot of uneeded damage. they retrained the fundamentals and added the “power” jab. mixed with excellent cardio and hard to knock them out. having a power jab means if your oppenent can’t get within it he is going have a long night of being punched in the face. i don’t know why anyone thought haye would have a chance. if he was a man he would go for the win. if he was chump he would run for his life. haye talked crap for almost 4 years to run like baby. he is really a lightheavy anyway
that was the biggest thing to me
Big Klit towered over Haye….that was Big Klit right and which one is Dr. Steelhammer/Dr. Ironfist?
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
MMA is stepping on other people's dreams to reach your own.
- Roxanne Modafferi
by The Blackula on Jul 3, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
At least GSP fights have some wow moments and you get some variety with MMA
Klitschko and GSP have both had opponents recently that have defensive futile strategies that focus on surviving a decision loss rather than winning. Klitchko fights, however, devolves into a jab fest, while the jabbiest GSP fight still had a fractured orbital, takedowns (and their associated battles). The ‘boring’ Shields fight had that power jab and head kick.
You’re always going to have bad boxing and MMA fights, so cherrypicking is meaningless. MMA, though, simply has more avenues for action and feels more real.
by paythefighters on Jul 3, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
uggh
Just tried to watch Klitschko/Haye and couldn’t even sit through 3 rounds.
I think watching 132 last night probably spoiled my appetite for the 12 round stinker.
yeah
it was tough to watch. from the botched entrances to the announcers turning on the fight after 3 rounds…not good.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I cant even remember the last time I was excited about boxing. It seems so much slower than MMA, and I fall asleep before the 3rd round.
My passions are MMA , NFL,Golf and pool landscaping.
by Alexander Daniels on Jul 3, 2011 11:02 AM EDT reply actions
Amen to that
Great article couldn’t describe it better myself, hopefully we won’t see any articles titled "Today"s Biggest Fight" describing a boxing match on the same day there is an MMA event on BE ever again.
If PBF and Manny fight there will be another article about that fight being bigger, but hopefully the UFC will dodge having an event on that day at all costs. That fight would kill any MMA fight at this point in time when it comes to buys.
I’d rather just climb this fridge
If Manny and PBF fight
There will be no UFC event on, and Dana White will be at home watching boxing.
My gripe is that this is an MMA website
Why not add Wimbledon? it will do way better numbers than boxing. I don’t care for boxing or tennis. This is an MMA website diluting the message with stories about other sports is bad business in my eyes. I just don’t get it, if you look at the amount of comments these stories generate it doesn’t make sense. The only explanation I have is that the site gets money for promoting these fights or just over zealous writers.
BE covers MMA, yes, but also all combat sports.
Did you complain about discussing K-1 World GP? What about the NCAA Wrestling finals? ADCC or World JJ Championships?
Bottom line – if you don’t want to read about boxing, don’t click on the article.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
The extent of boxing coverage though
is usually a couple articles leading up to the fight to leech traffic and then a smug article afterwards about how unpalatable boxing is and how MMA is the greatest thing ever as the comments fill up with MMA fans patting themselves on the back for being fans of the best combat sport to ever exist. That’s what’s irritating to me.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jul 3, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Fair enough.
I think MMA fans are insecure because it’s the new sport on the block. It isn’t even completely legal in the US yet. We’ll look for any chance to prove our staying power.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I think that a lot of us...
are angry with boxing. I grew up a boxing fan, but the sport has just continuously sabotaged and cannibalized itself- now, as fans of a similar sport that has taken its lessons from boxing’s successes and failures, MMA fans have a right to be excited about this time. Many of the things that bother fans about boxing have been directly addressed by MMA, to the point there those “cons” of boxing have become MMA’s “pros.” There’s no multitude of titles that are hard to keep track of, almost all of the best fighters are in the same promotion, able to fight each other 3-4 times a year, the fights are shorter, prospects actually fight each other (they aren’t protected until they have inflated, undefeated records) and there are multiple quality fights on any given 11 or 12 fight card. It’s a great time to be an MMA fan and a torturous time to be a boxing fan, why isn’t that a fair topic for discussion?
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
It's a great time to be a combat sports fan.
I appreciate both and feel sorry for those who feel that they have to pick one and disparage the other.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jul 3, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree...
with the idea that there is room for all combat sports. But to omit the difficulties that boxing is experiencing right now from combat sports discussion is just being naive or ignorant.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody pats
themselves on the back you’re missing the point. I love MMA and I do not care for stories not related to the sport you can say “well than don’t read the article” yes I could ignore it but I really like BE and I think they’re missing the point by promoting boxing on their website.
They aren't promoting boxing
They aren’t promoting anything. Merely offering insight and commentary into MMA and the larger combat sports world.
When you have your own blog than you can chose the editorial direction you’d like to take it.
I really like BE and I think they’re missing the point by promoting boxing on their website.
So, because you “really like” BE, they should realign their approach to meet your idiosyncratic preferences? Got it.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
There is nothing
peculiar about being a site dedicated to one sport and obviously you don’t get it. The cross over between boxing and MMA is the same for football. We have ex football players in the UFC why not start covering football as well. In the business end of things I can’t see the benefit of covering any other sport other than MMA. Adding stories related to other sports dilutes the site. Why stop with boxing? Add football, hockey and than tennis and golf.
No I didn't
Because they are cross over sports many of the athletes compete in these tournaments cross over to MMA that is why they are relevant. Covering boxing on an MMA site has no correlation what so ever to MMA.
Then don't read the articles about boxing?
Like seriously, no one is forcing you to read this article, or comment on it, yet here you are…
by Worldisart on Jul 3, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kharitonov, Noons, Belfort, Anderson Silva, and many others have boxed before and during their MMA careers- Diaz had a bout agreement signed for a boxing match- it certainly does have correlation and relevance to MMA.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jul 3, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
while your right to an extent
You guys only cover major events for other combat spirts. If this was a true combat sports, then we’d see a lot more coverage. I think it a bit dishonest to paint the site as combat sports when non-mma coverage is once in a blue moon
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
by sitnam90 on Jul 3, 2011 1:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No, because it's primarily an MMA site.
BE dabbles in other combat sports because a) crossover fan appeal, and b) more page hits. We won’t get into intricacies of a boxing undercard, but you’ll see important fights. It’s like Americans’ attitude towards soccer – only discuss it when it’s big enough.
Also, the grappling coverage here is dramatically increasing.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, the grappling coverage here is dramatically increasing.
Still doesn’t reach near the coverage of MMA. I understand that covering other combat sports is good for the site, but until we get constant updates about boxing/kickboxing/grappling contests I would still hesitate to call this a true combat sports website.
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
So do I - that's what I just said.
It dabbles. It doesn’t give nuanced accounts of every combat sport, just MMA. Because of the hybrid nature of MMA, fans of it tend to follow other combat sports. MMA is the main event here, other sports are the undercard.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
MMA is the main event here, other sports are the undercard.
That’s actually a pretty good analogy. I’d be more interested in othe rcombat sports if we saw more of their top guys switch over to MMA. That’s the good thing about ADCC is so many of their top guys do make the transition, same with wrestling.
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
The only page hits
you get is from people debating the boxing vs. MMA question none cross over fans.
MMA hs not won the war with boxing.
Don’t forget about New York.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
What is the point of this article?
To pretend like one bad day in boxing tarnishes the entire sport just because MMA has a good one? Overeem/Werdum was more unwatchable than Haye/Klitschko and it only lasted 15 minutes instead of 36.
I love both sports, and happen to enjoy MMA the most, but even if you don’t watch boxing, and I know a lot of people in here don’t judging by the comments: what was reflected in the Haye/Vlad fight? That the division sucks? Why is that a surprise? HW is notorious for being a division that doesn’t live up to its hype, and this is true of MMA as it is of boxing.
Write this article when Cruz/Faber 3 happens at the same time as Salido/Lopez 2, and then we can have a discussion: oh wait…there won’t be any discussion because they’re both liable to be awesome, and that wouldn’t fit into these lame ‘page hit principle’ level articles trying to provoke a false debate.
Follow me at Head Kick Legend
by David Castillo on Jul 3, 2011 11:37 AM EDT reply actions 8 recs
It reminds me of when there was a Strikeforce event the same night as a TUF finale.
The SF events was far, far better, and there were the standard articles about “Is SF catching the UFC?”. No – it’s one data point among many. I don’t like boxing, but to say this was it’s final nail is nonsense.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yea
MMA writers, fans, or whatever you want to call them, have this weird habit of feeling like they always have to compete: either with each other, against other sports, or confronting their own stupidity, there’s always a fight to be had.
Follow me at Head Kick Legend
by David Castillo on Jul 3, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Boxing will never go anywhere. It has history and her of one of the biggest cultural figures to ever exist in its past. Boxing has been tarnished for years and its nothing to do with other combat sports. The politics and promoters ducking fights to protect fighters is what tarnishes boxing.
I’d rather just climb this fridge
Submission grappling has an even more impressive history...
…where did that go for most of the 20th C?
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, submission grappling has a limited history as a “sport”. While boxing – in its current form – has been around uninterrupted for almost 300 years.
I was dating it back to pankration.
Romans and medieval knights also practiced grappling.
Wrestling probably has the longest pedigree of any sport, combat or otherwise.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrestling does. But for almost all of medieval history the sport of wrestling was not submission grappling but for throws. And even in Greek and Roman times submission grappling wasn’t the norm but the exception. Plus boxing also dates to the Romans and Greeks – pag and pux.
Fair enough distinction between wrestling and sub-grap.
Also reminded me of this conversation.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
That's nerdastic
MMA actually has a pretty rich history, even pre-UFC, but I don’t think there is much to gain in advertising it so it’s pretty unknown to the masses.
It doesn't help that Zuffa doesn't even embrace it's own history. According to them:
1) Gracies found UFC
2) Dark Ages
3) Frank Shamrock Era
4) Zuffa to the rescue
5) Griffin/Bonnar OMG!
6) Profit.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
How scary is it to think that if the UFC had their way, nobody would know about Frank’s title reign and all the beauty that went with it?
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
More Overeem-Werdum comparisons?
BOXING FANS, PLEASE READ:
Overeem-Werdum was far from the most anticipated HW fight in years. It was far from the highest grossing fight in years. Please stop this worthless comparison.
by paythefighters on Jul 3, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep.
As we watched the dregs of the boxing match prior to the prelims, I commented that “this is why I don’t watch boxing anymore.” It was some boring, boring .
Hmmm
-50.000 péople in the Stadium
-15.5mil people watched in Germany alone (that’s 67% of all TV watching Germans yesterday btw)
-Wlad alone earned 23mil. Euros for the fight
-I’m sure HBO will get over 2mil. viewers
Yep looks like Boxing lost…………………
by KOQ24 on Jul 3, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
while I disagree with this post's title...
You clearly didnt read the post cause absolutely no part of the argument was comparing viewership and monetary success. The UFC will not be dishing out comparable payouts anytime soon.
by Democritus on Jul 3, 2011 12:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He’s not just talking about monetary success, he’s talking about fan interest, which has everything to do with the article in question.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
50,000 live fans, millions of viewers, etc. all going home disappointed at best and angry at worst. faber and cruz may only end up at 300k buys but all those people who watched it are going home pumped up and are going to enthusiastically tell their friends about it.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jul 3, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You know how there are MMA audiences that boo when the fights hit the ground, while other audiences ahh at sub escapes and sweeps?
I don’t think you get how big boxing is outside of the US… European audiences generally appreciate the fine parts of boxing- defense and strategy. The German audience was comprised of die hard Klit fans, who fill stadiums and football fields every time one of them fights.
Also, last night looked like a typical Klit tiltle defense. The fans were not disapointed with what they got- they actually got what they were expecting, and have a huge admiration and appreciation for.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
i call bullshit
foreigners want a good scrap just as much as americans. sure, the sensibilities are different from different fans but germans know a dud of a fight just as much as anybody else.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jul 3, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
The Klitsckos have been in worse fights
Frankly, much worse fights. They’ll always pack a huge crowd in Germany.
Call bullshit all you want
The Klits regularly sell out stadiums in Germany. Most of their title defenses look like Klit-Haye.
German fans appreciate the finer points of boxing. They are probably oohing and ahhing at shit you don’t even notice.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
German fans appreciate the finer points of boxing. They are probably oohing and ahhing at shit you don’t even notice.
When your sport doesnt have flying knees you have to learn the value of the little things.
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
This is from last night’s card:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDG362nTBd0
Who needs flying knees?
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I like flying knees too BTW ;).
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
My favorite style of KO.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
There's a gif
that doesn’t get old.
The only substitute for victory is overkill.
by Underhand Left on Jul 3, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The look of pain on Dong Hyun Kim's face while having his head thrashed about is sickening
One of the rare moments where I question why I like this sport.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
He could’ve always tapped…well shit nevermind, if he didn’t have the attached senses to fold and cover up I doubt that he had the awareness to tap, sucks for him.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jul 3, 2011 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I know right?
Like learning to appreciate and find excitement in watching Fitch do his laying on you till the fights over thing.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
You want to play that game?
I challenge you to find the most exciting boxing match of all time. You do that and I bet even casual fans on this site can find 15 MMA bouts which blow it away. You down?
The only substitute for victory is overkill.
by Underhand Left on Jul 3, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
You kinda missed the point
there are things in boxing “casual” fans find boring, and there are things in MMA “casual” fans find boring.
To act like MMA is all explosions and fireworks is ignorant when John Fitch has the most dominant fighting style in the sport.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I was more being a smartass then anything
I actually tend to like Fitch fights too, so that woud make me a hypocrite
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
haha didn't think you'd be a Fitch fan
I figure most people that think flying knee KOs are cool, think wet blanket decisions are boring as shit.
I actually enjoy ground fighting that isn’t centered around pinning your opponent and causing the minimal amount of damage necessary from getting stood up grinding out a decision, fwiw.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
He has had boring fights for sure
But I’m a fan of the guys personality, and that makes watching some of his fights alot better. But I really though the Penn fight, both Alves fights, and the Pierce fight were good for what they were worth.
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
Fitch's style is nowhere near as dominant as that one guy
who kicked the crap out of him. They say that GSP fella is pretty good.
"Before I do anything I ask myself, "Would an idiot do that?" And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing." - Dwight Schrute
I'd fully conceded that point
If GSP wasn’t a better Fitcher than Fitch. Lets not act like alot of his title defenses have not been top control centric wrestling affairs.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
They really haven't
The Alves fight gets crapped on alot, but GSP actually mixed it up quite a bit, same with Penn 2.
The only fight that was a top control centric fight was the Hardy fight. Which is still different from fitching in the number of times he actually tried to finish
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
Well, I admitted I partially accepted that point.
GSP is a defense first oriented fighter (nothing wrong with that imo, just don’t ask me to say your the most exciting guy either), and that means he looks to nullify his opponents’ strength and attack their weaknesses.
Alot of the time it means jab cross takedown, and then top control. Which sounds alot like Rashad… or Maynard… or Guida… or Ellenburger… or Lentz… or Sonnen… or Okami… or virtually all of the top ten of the welterweight division. Some of those guys do work for the finish, but all of them are more than content to do weak G&P from the guard, run the clock out, and collect their W bonus.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
You sound like David Haye did when he spoke about decapitating Wlad.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing is
Even when Fitch is lying on someone, there’s still a fight going on. 80% of boxing is snuggling in the middle of the ring when they’re supposed to be throwing hands.
The only substitute for victory is overkill.
by Underhand Left on Jul 3, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't use Fitch as a counterexample to "snuggling"...
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh damn you suck at life
First off, MMA isn’t fighting. Its a sport. There are no rules in fighting.
80% of a successful Fitching is making sure his opponent cannot mount offense, while doing just enough to not get stood up. Its point fighting at its worst, and exists in both sports.
Why can’t you acknowledge that?
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
"There are no rules in fighting."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
Its a stretch to define fighting exclusively as “war” but ok.
Do you think GW Bush will be prosecuted for OKing depleted uranium munitions to be used in Iraq? Or Obama for killing civilians while dropping bombs from unmanned drones? Not in our lifetime.
To the victor go the spoils. And MMA is not fighting. Its a sport.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I know. It was a semi-serious response.
Have you seen the documentary “The Fog of War”? It’s an interview with Robert McNamara, and he says about his role in the Pacific Front of WWII that, had the US lost, it would have been prosecuted as war criminals. One of the best films I’ve seen; it’s Political Science 101.
Though I wouldn’t call MMA not fighting unless you strictly define “fighting” as not having any rules. It’s not pure fighting, perhaps, nor practical self-defense, but it is a fight and a sport.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I was always taught there are no rules in a (street) fight
So yeah. I’m saying in a real fight you can’t expect to not get hit in the balls. Or to get shanked. Or to get jumped.
If the first instance you will get 5 minutes to compose yourself before the bought is restarted. The second two instances generally have no possibility of happening during an MMA match.
Rules are essential to games/sports. So no, MMA is not fighting. Its a sport, a combat sport, but falls far short of fighting. That thing that happened after Strikeforce Nashville? That was a fight. Huge difference.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Right. If you define a fight as having no rules, then MMA isn't truely fighting.
It’s just a linguistic shortcut to call it a fight. Perhaps we should call it fight*.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
It's Germany...
Have you ever BEEN to Germany? There’s nothing else to do.
The only substitute for victory is overkill.
by Underhand Left on Jul 3, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Munich is renowned for its historic beer halls.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, but
they still need something to do after breakfast.
The only substitute for victory is overkill.
by Underhand Left on Jul 3, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
1) Family guy reference.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
and the Czech Republic, and Austria, and Hungary.
Central Europe is nice. You should visit some time.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
it is bullshit
to say that fans “appreciate” finer aspects of a sport does not mean they enjoy a crappy fight. i can appreciate good ground technique more than most casual mma fans but that doesn’t mean i like a boring ground battle whether neither fighter engages and one fights scared. if those german fans are really as sophisticated as you imply then they would be able to easily see how disappointing that fight was from both sides.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jul 3, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, you should go tell them that they're wrong for enjoying the K Bros fight
Because they, in fact, do enjoy watching them fight, and spend alot of money to watch them do it. I’m sure you will open alot of eyes.
Have you ever heard of Winky Wright? He uses the peekaboo style of fighting… hides behind his gloves (and freakishly long arms) and basically jabs his opponent to death. Occasionally he’ll throw out a cross to mix it up. This guy was a fantastic boxer- he rarely lost stateside. Unfortunately, he had such an unfriendly fan style that eventually he was unable to find fights in the US. Not only would the opposing boxer likely lose, but they would lose an excitement-free fight filled with boos and taunts from the audience.
Winky moved to Europe to fight, and became a minor star over there. Couldn’t get fights stateside, but was a minor celebrity in Germany. They are a different class of fans over there. They like seeing defense and strategy much more than their American counterparts. It might have something to do with the basic difference in societies between the two countries.
There are fans in America that boo when fighters are clinched on the fence, or locked on the ground. But there are also fans in Japan to the point where you can hear the audience lose their breath after a fighter escapes from an armbar or sweeps. There are fans in Australia that don’t say “Just Bleed” but chant “Knees Knees” when they see a fighter put in the Thai Plum.
Just accept that while it wasn’t your cup of tea, there are alot of fans who like to watch that kind of boxing match. Its not far fetched. Its the truth.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like good boxing matches, and I enjoyed watching Winky Wright fight, particularly the Mosley fights. But once he was established he had several very high profile fights in America, and was frequently featured on HBO. I’m sure you’re correct that the sensibilities of German boxing fans are different, but I highly doubt those people would enjoy watching BAD strategy and defense, like David Haye showed yesterday. And while Klitschko did work his reach well, it was hardly a clinic. Do you really think those German fans went home satisfied yesterday?
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jul 3, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
the only angry fans
would be the Haye fans lol
I was wondering about the “pink hat” term so I googled it, I think it’s mainly applied to chicks. Unless they started selling boxing hats and you got yours in pink, in which case carry on.
Since messrs. Castillo and Barrington have already staked out my position I don’t have much to add besides:
Fist, the observations that while UFC 132 was a very entertaining card it will be hard for it to “win the war” (whatever war that is) over boxing if no one was watching it and my guess is few watched this card; secondly, the one thing MMA is really missing and cannot compete at all with is the rich and deep history boxing has. To know that Klitschko and Haye were continuing a the legacies of Holyfield, Tyson, Ali, Marciano, Louis, Tunney, Dempsey, Johnson, Sullivan, and back through even Jem Mace and Barrington is chill inducing.
by John Nash on Jul 3, 2011 1:01 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
My opinion on the matter
Haye vs Klitschko was supposed to be the biggest hw fight in at least a decade, and for a casual boxing fan(me) it was dreadful to watch. I’ve given boxing plenty of chances and the majoriity of the time i come away dissapointed.
Other than Manny Pacquai laying whoopings on people, I havent been wowed by boxing since the Ward/ Gatti trilogy. I dont think there is any denying that boxing still holds a bigger audience, but its a declining audience because they are not bringing in that next crop of fans
that mma is pulling
by 19Miles on Jul 3, 2011 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Just to sound like a boxing snob
for a second despite the fact that I’m not (and this isn’t to single you out 19Miles), but why are the Gatti/Ward fights the de facto reference for great trilogies? That is the incorrect answer. The correct answer should be the Barrera/Morales trilogy. I’ll await someone with greater knowledge to tell me otherwise, but goddamn I love those fights; even the 2nd one.
Follow me at Head Kick Legend
by David Castillo on Jul 3, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Even more than Ali/Frazier?
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 3, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
No
but it’s a personal preference thing, family bonding during that period, nostalgic bullshit, et cetera. Plus I wasn’t as interested in MMA at the time.
Follow me at Head Kick Legend
by David Castillo on Jul 3, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
As a trilogy, Ali/Frazier falls flat because of the second fight.
The first and third make up for a lot though.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jul 3, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd put the Izzy Vazquez/Rafael Marquez trilogy #1
but Barrera/Morales is right up there. Great fights.
Perhaps Juan Manuel Marquez will put on one last great performance in November and vault JMM/Pacquaio as one of the great trilogies.
btw I know Vazquez/Marquez fought again
but that fight really shouldn’t have any bearing on their past.
Another potentially
great trilogy for sure. I don’t think Marquez will have much for Pac-man at this point in his career, but that first fight won’t be forgotten; finest display of toughness (the gritty “I’m hurt so I’ll hurt you back” toughness as opposed to the “I can take a beating” variety) I’ve seen, probably ever.
Follow me at Head Kick Legend
by David Castillo on Jul 3, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
As dramatic as the first fight was w/ the early KD's
I actually like the second fight more. It’s probably in my top 5 fights of the 00’s. But the first fight definitely will be more memorable.
I was always a big Holyfield-Bowe and Sugar Ray Leonard-Roberto Duran fan. Historically, I always heard Tony Zale v Rocky Graziano was amazing but you can only see the one fight.
Duran-Leonard I
Is one of the greatest examples of a fighter getting into his opponent’s head. Duran was awesome during the build-up. Everything Haye wanted to be.
Am I the only one who wasn’t bored by the fight? Maybe its because I was having fun on the Bad Left Hook live thread, but I enjoy big events even if they don’t prove to be the slugfest that everyone hoped it would be. I knew what happened was a possibility going in. I still enjoyed it.
That said, UFC was far more exciting last night. However, I didn’t know that the two sports were competing to see which is more exciting. Its kind of apples and oranges. I’m just happy that there were lots of fights on. Is it just me or are MMA fans getting a little defensive? I love boxing because I love watching fights.
I agree with this, I thought Wlad/Haye was an okay tactical fight (so long as you didn’t get caught up in the pre-fight hype, which I didn’t) but was obviously outshone by an excellent UFC card on the night.
To draw the conclusion of “MMA > Boxing” from that is ridiculous really.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Jul 3, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
And I’m sure in the near future there will be a great boxing match juxtaposed with a shitty UFC card that had almost no finishes. I’m sure the same people would take issue with boxing fans claiming victory over UFC in that instance. Over here I find myself defending boxing while over at Bad Left Hook I’m defending MMA from people that insist Sergio Martinez would destroy Frankie Edgar under MMA rules.
I love Sergio and he's freat
but no… just no.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
*great
dammit
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t crazy that he didn’t start training boxing till he was 20? Makes you wonder what he would have been if he started young like most boxers.
I remember the HBO commentary harping on that during the first Williams fight and the Pavlik fight, saying Sergio “went as far as you could go after entering boxing that late in life”.
So glad he won the title. (Also eternally greatful to BHop for making the middleweight title relevant.) Shit, I think Sergio even won the first Williams fight. But to come out, say your gonna KO Williams, and then just unload like that in the second? He hit Williams with that overhand left about 12 times in round one. Knew it was there. Knew he could land it. Then he put everything he had into one. Left me speechless.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
the entrance
the mess before the fight was some great foreshadowing of what to expect. It took approx. 28 minutes from the start of Klitchsko’s walk-out to start the fight. 28 friggin’ minutes!!!!!!!
Kinda feels similar to being forced to watch Goldie interview the next Connan and then having to watch a commercial for it , on a card that already paid to watch.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jul 3, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Reccing this post.
Watching boxing for me in the MMA era is like watching a couple of slugs bump into each other. Boring.
The only substitute for victory is overkill.
I watched Haye-Klitschko and none of the MMA. @BloodyElbow, Klitschko “threw half hearted punches”? What fight were you watching? Sounds like you buy everything Jim Lampley and Larry Merchant feed you. Boxing consists of more than just HBO cards. I will continue to watch Shobox, Telefutura, Friday Night Fights more than I watch MMA…
This article is just another attempt to put down boxing by an MMA fan.Yes, the matchmaking in MMA is way better, the sport as a whole and especially the UFC is managed very well, but the “boxing is dead” argument is so cliche and inaccurate. Boxing is a niche sport, yes, but it will not die, despite its mismanagement, and despite articles like this….
More like the Combat Sports battle
of that night. Somehow I doubt boxing fans are going to convert because their ME sucked and we had a card that was badass.
Why won't the klitschkos fight each other
when Rick and Nick Bruiser had no problem doing so? That’s what I want to know.
by Trysdor on Jul 3, 2011 5:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This article got it spot on
I spent last night in my home town with old friends who are very hostile to MMA. I told them That Kilitchko would win every round in a boring jab fest with Haye never really pushing and I got some real abuse from these guys for being right saying I ruined the event for them etc.
Few hours later we continued to drink and I said lets watch the UFC if you give it a chance you could be surprised they barely looked at the screen moaning every time the fight looked like it was going to the ground got to the point I asked them to put it off as I couldnt enjoy the event at all with them around.
Ive said it before and ill say it again I will never again watch MMA with people that dont know MMA it always ends in argument.
All due respect
But the purported battle between boxing and MMA is stupid, and any argument claiming that one night ends the “war” is asinine. I boxed for 14 years and have never stepped into an MMA gym. But I love both sports…just for very different reasons. You might as well compare boxing to hockey for all I care.
Look, a lot of the arguments against boxing are very real. 17 weight classes is horseshit. Having the only trustworthy belt come from a magazine is horseshit. The fact that 11 of the 17 magazine belts are vacant is horseshit. Having sanctioning bodies that actively avoid top contenders is horseshit. The sanctioning fees and ridiculous creation of new belts for no reason within sanctioning bodies that already have a belt is horseshit. This is all true.
But please don’t act like the ultimately predictable boring decision victory by a valid champ over a self-marketed assbag is some final arbiter of a fictitious war. It’s straight stupid. Of course the fight was overhyped…as if that never happens in MMA. The fact that many here don’t intimately understand boxing enough to appreciate it unless there is some crazy flash KO is unsurprising…it’s the same thing MMA fans hate about the douchebags who know nothing about what they are watching in an octagon or other MMA venue. This opinion is only valid in that the espouser doesn’t like the product…fine, but WTF do I care?
Yes, boxing is trending downward and MMA is trending upward. That’s about all that can be said here.
by Jim America on Jul 4, 2011 1:14 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
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