Replacing Cyborg
by Chromium on Jul 1, 2011 1:54 AM EDT
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Cross-posted from a post at Gal's Guide to MMA.
With the recent news that Cristiane "Cyborg" Santos is now officially a free-agent after failing to come to terms with Strikeforce, and may be heading elsewhere, for now, Womens' MMA is finding itself in serious peril of not surviving an eventual Strikeforce/UFC merger. What good is having a women's division in the UFC if you don't have the best in the world after all?
Yet strangely, with recent signings, Strikeforce now has eight of the top ten women at 135 listed in the June Unified Women's Rankings under contract, or at least seven (Hitomi Akano's contract status is unclear). They aren't far away from having an unprecedented monopoly on a single women's division. So it seems like at least matchmaker Sean Shelby cares quite a bit about women's MMA. But it still is going to be a very hard uphill battle to legitimize their top division without the woman undisputedly seen as the best in the world. One thing about that though:
That doesn't mean she actually is.
Most of Cyborg's wins since coming to the United States have been over women who don't even normally fight at 145. Yoko Takahashi and Gina Carano are the only opponents she's had since then that are in fact in her natural weight class. The Girlfight Monster Hitomi Akano certainly is a tough, elite grappler but she's not even a natural 135 lbs. fighter, she's a Flyweight. And her last opponent, Jan Finney, was not only a weight class below Cyborg, she wasn't even very good within that weight class. She has a chin and guts and little else. Why the athletic commissioners sanctioned a bout between Cyborg and an 8-7 Bantamweight is beyond me, and the incredibly brutal mauling that followed was all too predictable. Cyborg may be incredibly dangerous, but if you took Cain Velasquez, Brock Lesnar, JDS, Shane Carwin, or Overeem and had them fight a journeyman off the indies with a hard head and not much else, and added a referee who would not stop the fight until one fighter had multiple broken bones in their face, I suspect the results would be quite similar, and no one thinks any of those guys are outright invincible.
At any rate, it would take quite a bit of effort to give someone enough credibility that they could be considered on the same level as Cyborg, especially at what is by far the thinnest of the 12 significant divisions, Women's 145. After looking at who was available though, I realized it wasn't impossible. Zuffa has traditionally shied away from doing tournaments because in an eight-person tournament, seven of them leave it on a loss. However, there is no surer way to create a credible champion in a division where none exists.
Fantasy match-making is the sort of thing that can be groan inducing to some people since it leads to disagreements about whether a particular match-up is moronic or not. However in Women's 145, the bigger challenge is simply to find enough women to field a tournament who aren't tomato cans. So I came up with a list of 14 women for a hypothetical Eight-Woman Grand Prix with four alternate slots (two of which are play-ins), and it was actually much easier than I thought it would be. Most of them are not under contract to Strikeforce, but none of them should be implausible acquisitions. All of them have good resumes. All of them have fought at 140 or higher. Some of them would be better off at 135--and if they lose early on those people could simply change divisions and keep their credibility--but too my knowledge none of them are natural 125 lbs. fighters like Hitomi Akano or Roxanne Modafferi. And with two play-in fights, all but one of them would be entering on a win (hint: if you can guess which fighter would be entering the main tournament on a loss, then you were probably aware of at least one female MMA fighter before reading this article). After the jump,there's a bio of every hypothetical participant, along with who isn't in the tournament.
First off, I tried to be semi-realistic about who Strikeforce could get. Belgian judoka Cindy Dandois, who had a controversial win over Marloes Coenen in her very first match and has gone 4-1 since then, is pregnant right now, so she's out. The loan woman to have beaten Dandois, surging prospect Yana Kunitskaya, is under contract to M-1 Global and my understanding is there is no way that they would willingly hand her over to Strikeforce exclusively, and more co-promoting with M-1 is a rather irksome prospect considering what Strikeforce has gone through with Fedor. I would also have liked to put 2008 Olympic Bronze Medalist freestyle wrestler Randi Miller on here except that she has zero professional fights to her name, and none scheduled anymore to my knowledge after a debut against Hiroko Yamanaka fell through twice. Being a professional Mixed Martial Artist requires one to professionally fight in MMA fights, and while I have no doubt that it is probably very difficult to find opponents for her due to her wrestling pedigree (just to be clear though, Miller was the one who withdrew against Yamanaka), until she does so, I can't really consider her for any sort of tournament. Also, there is another U.S. Olympic wrestler I would have liked to have included on this list, 2004 Silver Medalist Sara McMann (who apparently had extreme difficulty finding a first opponent herself). While McMann did compete at the same weight as Miller (63 kg or approximately 139 lbs.), and she does have two fights to her credit now, both of which she won in under a minute, she's made it pretty clear she wants to fight at 135. Again, being realistic, if I ran Strikeforce, it's not like I could force her to fight higher than that (and for the record I would hire her for whatever division she wanted to be in).
Also, some people have pointed to Erin Toughill in the comments below, and though she is already mentioned briefly, I should probably make it explicit why she's not listed, even as an alternate. The fact that she has come off as delusional in web rants doesn't exactly help her, but isn't why she's not on here. First off, she cannot make 145. She has, in fact, never made 145. The lightest she has ever weighed in for a fight was in a 148 catchweight fight against Emily Thompson. When Strikeforce was desperate for more challengers for Cyborg, and both Cyborg and Toughill had difficult times getting opponents, she was granted an immediate title shot by Scott Coker, only to pull out weeks before the fight because she felt she could not possibly make weight. When she was later called out by Shana Olsen on one of her web diatribes and on her weight ("put down the fork, put on your running shoes, and meet me in Strikeforce"), she was offered a #1 Contender's match by Scott Coker and she still couldn't agree to it due to not feeling she could make 145. Coker then told her that he was not going to use her in a fight until she made 145 elsewhere. If that's not enough motivation to make weight then I don't know what is. More recently, after a nearly two year layoff, she fought Ashley Sanchez at 160 catchweight apparently so she would not have to cut much if any weight (although she apparently cut some weight anyway since she came in at 161). This leads to the second reason she is not listed below: she is no longer good enough. She hand-picked an opponent to lose and pretty much got schooled. There are more details on that below. At any rate, until Toughill can both come anywhere near 145 again and then win a match she does not belong on a list like this.
As it regards those who are actually in the tournament though, there is by no means any assurance that all of the fighters listed below would be truly obtainable, or would make it through the tournament uninjured. Thus I came up with a list of six alternates. Three of them are coming off losses but are otherwise proven fighters (and all of whom are under contract already), and thus would have to fight there way into the alternate bracket. Being an alternate in this tournament isn't as bad as it sounds though. The winner of the alternate tournament could definitely find themselves in a #1 contender's match following it. I should also mention that I will be using the term "prospect" a lot here, because, well, I could probably count on one hand the number of potentially decent fighters in Women's 145 who have really proven where they belong in the pecking order. Which is all the more reason to have a tournament like this.
Finally, I tried to put this roughly in reverse order of who I thought the best or most qualified participants were, but that's hardly set in stone. So, starting with the alternate list:
Alternate #4) Winner of Sarah D'Alelio (4-1) vs. Shana Olsen (4-2)
If Sarah D'Alelio sounds familiar but you can't quite place her, it's because she was the girl initially selected to face Gina Carano in her comeback match. She actually has a decent resume, with her only loss coming by decision to highly regarded 135 lbs. fighter Julie Kedzie. The only problem: that loss was her most recent fight. Also none of her victories were over anyone well known even to those well-versed in WMMA. Nevertheless she's under contract so I'd give her a chance. She just needs a win first.
Shana "Rock Solid" Olsen was formerly a Top 10 fighter in this division under the Unified Women's Rankings, at one point being the top ranked American female fighter at Women's 145, and she is built just like her nickname. Then she got smacked up hard in her Strikeforce debut by Julia Budd, losing by 2nd round TKO. Then she lost again on the indies. So I'm a little less than sold on her. But she's still on Strikeforce's roster page and I assume she's still under contract, plus she boasts a win over the very tough Yoko Takahashi. So I'd give her a play-in chance.
Alternate #3) Winner of Germaine de Randamie (2-2) vs. Lauren Taylor (3-0)
via www.fightergirls.com via www.cdn.sherdog.com
Dutch fighter Germaine de Randamie certainly has one of the most impressive resumes outside the sport, having gone 48-0 in Muay Thai, getting bored of the sport only because she was so dominant that girls just didn't want to fight her. She was the Cyborg of Muay Thai. However in MMA she's 2-2 and is more potential than she is proven. Coming off a decision loss to Julia Budd, I figured it would probably be best if she got a win before getting into this tournament. And yes I know that most of her fights have been at 135. It's not like she couldn't go back down is she lost.
I really cannot find a lot of information about this product of Alaska's surprisingly active indy scene (I guess there's not a lot else to do in Alaska), although Lauren Taylor evidently did enough to land on Fight Matrix's Top 10, after beating former boxer Willow Bailey to take her spot. From the accounts I can find though, she has a BJJ base and wicked ground strikes, winning all three of her matches by TKO. However, even as an alternate, Taylor seems like too much of a question mark to just throw into a tournament like this. Beating a world class striker like Germaine de Randamie would do a lot to clear up some of those questions though.
Alternate #2) Ashley Sanchez (4-2)
Ashley Sanchez was not supposed to ever be on a list like this. She was not supposed to be relevant. This is because this past April when she came off a three-year hiatus to be Erin Toughill's comeback opponent, she was not supposed to win. Fighting at a catchweight of 160 lbs. presumably so Toughill wouldn't have to cut much if anything, the smaller Ashley Sanchez danced around her with jabs and high kicks, and then severely outworked her in the clinch, and practically clowned her, winning 30-27 on all three score cards. Apparently despite gaining at least 15 lbs. (she used to fight at 135), Sanchez hadn't spent her three years away from MMA eating potato chips. At the end of three rounds against Toughill, she still had cardio to burn against the gassed former #1 female fighter on the planet. I don't know if Toughill has simply deteriorated, but either way it seems the newer generation in the sport have passed her on by. Sanchez, despite the fact she's not exactly a rookie, is one of those people who have passed her on by. 6 weeks later she followed this up with another winning performance at 150 lbs. catchweight. Admittedly, it seems she was doing some resume padding of her own with that fight, but it also seems she's working her way back down to 145. She's an interesting prospect with some beautiful roundhouse kicks and a great clinch game, who looks to be a natural 145 now, and is worthy of an alternate slot.
Alternate #1) Kelly Kobold (17-3-1)
This is the woman who is by far the most established alternate. She has 17 wins. 15 by stoppage, including pounding out Shayna Baszler until she tapped to strikes. Her three losses were to Gina Carano, Julie Kedzie, and Tara Larosa respectively, all of them excellent fighters. So why is she in the alternate bracket? Because those three losses happened all in a row. Then she took 2.5 years off. And only resumed fighting this past April, with a first round armbar over then-undefeated prospect Pipi Taylor. Nevertheless her resume is extremely solid, and if her comeback fight is any indications, she's still a very strong fighter. If she won the imaginary alternate bracket here, she'd definitely be "in the mix" in the new division.
Well, onto the main field fighters. This isn't really in a seeded order, as I don't think I'd do this tournament in a seeded format for the sake of the most marketable match-ups (the winner would still be the winner regardless), but again this is roughly in order of what I considered a mix of perceived legitimacy and potential. If I went with purely who I figured was the most likely to win a tournament like this, it would be the girl I ranked #3, but she doesn't have the resume to justify being put any higher than that.
8) Romy Ruyssen (4-1)
Romy Ruyssen is a former FILA Grappling World Champion out of France, with four wins all coming by first round armbar, and a loan loss to Marloes Coenen. She's definitely a hot, marketable prospect. I do wish I had more background information, but her grappling is certainly very strong.
7) Milena Dudieva (6-1)
via www.profc.ws
After losing her first match, this Russian went on to win her next six in a row, winning the first five by first round stoppages, in the space of under a year, before decisioning well-regarded Bantamweight Sheila Gaff this past December. I wasn't able to find a whole lot of information about this woman, currently ranked #5 in the world in the Women's Unified Rankings. Her base being in judo, Dudieva seems to have little trouble ragdolling her opponents and also straight overpowering them, finishing one fight by ye olde Bulldog Choke. Her striking on the other hand, while enthusiastics, is, um, Leonard Garcia-esque, to put it charitably. She throws wild heymakers that make it seem like her first choice of careers was to be a wind turbine, but with two TKOs and a submission win via punches, she does seem to have power, if not precision. She's not cut like a world class athlete, but neither is Gina Carano. She's an interesting prospect who I think could go pretty far with the right training. And since she is on a hot streak and has at least one notable name on her resume, I would put her in the tournament.
6) Julia Budd (2-1)
Julia Budd first burst onto the MMA scene making her debut against then Top 10 W145 fighter Shana Olsen. Someone with an 0-0 record debuting against what at the time was an undefeated prospect in Olsen seemed like a raw deal. Budd's main claim to fame was that she had a Muay Thai victory over Gina Carano, but as Budd herself showed against Germaine de Randamie, how well you do in Muay Thai doesn't necessarily translate to MMA. And all Olsen had to do here was win, and she was supposed to get a title shot at Cyborg (provided Strikeforce and Cyborg could come to terms). This did not happen. Budd dismantled Olsen, dominating the first round before finishing her off with a TKO in the second. As she was only 1-0 herself at that point, unfortunately for Budd she wasn't allowed to take Olsen's title shot. So she was paired with another Top 10 fighter in Amanda Nunes. This time things did not go so well and she was knocked out in 14 seconds. Nunes is no joke. Nevertheless, Budd is still an excellent striker, who after outpointing the aforementioned de Randamie to victory at Strikeforce Challengers 16, showed she was developing a better all-around game, taking de Randamie down repeatedly and controlling he on the ground. She's still green when it comes to MMA, but she certainly has a lot of potential.
5) Rin Nakai (10-0)
This girl is a lot more well known than most of the people on this list. Part of it may be her (mildly NSFW) blog full of cheesecake photos (one of the hazards of belonging to a Japanese talent agency is that this sort of thing is strongly encouraged for your career, and they will organize it for you). Part of it may be that she has ten straight wins, is built like a tank, and has learned to bob and weave while taking her opponents down at will. See her quickly dismantle Windy Tomomi Sunaba here. There are not many female athletes of her caliber in MMA, so she's definitely been one to watch. The only reason she's not ranked higher is she lacks any signature wins, and at the same time she is all of 5'1" and would probably be better off fighting at 135. If she lost, it's not like she couldn't drop down in weight though. As it is, she's a top flight prospect and highly marketable, and would still be those things even if she lost in the first round. Some may question the quality of her opponents, and they may have a point, but you could take a magnifying glass to most good fighters in any women's division and pick apart their records, particularly at 145. Rin Nakai though is definitely one to watch.
4) Gina Carano (7-1)
You didn't think I'd leave her out did you? She is the star attraction here, much like Fedor was supposed to be in the Heavyweight Grand Prix. Whether she gets very far, I have no idea. Furthermore, I don't really think she could become the next Cyborg, because to become the next Cyborg it helps not to have been violently bludgeoned by the current Cyborg (to be fair, Carano did have full mount at one point, and simply gave it up, allowing for some "what if?" speculation). However, for the champion in this tournament to have credibility, the tournament needs to draw attention, and Carano can do that like no other. Plus she's better than at least half the main field, in my opinion. Whether or not people think Cyborg "exposed" Carano, she's still one very dangerous girl, and more than just a bombshell with a pretty face.
Not to demean the people who came before here in this article, but this is the point where I introduce the women that have a very solid shot at being able to replace Cyborg's legitimacy if they won.
3) Ronda Rousey (2-0)
When asked approximately one year ago in an interview what she thought of the women she'd seen in women's MMA, this Olympic Bronze Medalist judoka very bluntly cracked "not much." She made it clear that with some cross-training she felt she could beat any of them. And then she started moving forward. First she went through three amateur opponents (including the highly regarded Taylor Stratford), and finished all of them by armbar, each in under a minute. Now she's done the same thing in her first two MMA fights, starting with former Top 10 fighter Ediane Gomes (who, as a former street urchin growing up in the slums of Brazil, if nothing else is as tough as nails), and then taking out the very physically imposing 6' tall kickboxer Charmaine Tweet in a 150 catchweight bout. Both by armbar, both in under one minute. You'd think that people would be looking for that armbar by now, and I'm sure they were, but that's a move she's been practicing since she was about five, or roughly as long as she has been practicing judo. She wasn't just any five year-old judoka either, she was the daughter of another world class female judoka in her own right, who had the same slick armbar transitions. You can find Ronda's mother's blog here. Although it seems to be largely about her daughter. And armbars. Go figure. Basically Ronda Rousey has been tapping fools since she was a wee lass before the UFC even existed. Very few male fighters start training so young, and I honestly think she could be the future of this sport, and legitimately she's the one here who I think has the best chance of beating Cyborg, at least with more experience. Her upside is just phenomenal. But with only two professional fights, and with none of her fights lasting long enough to show whether or not she can strike, I can't really rank her higher than this.
Update: since I first posted this article it appears that Rousey has now been signed to Strikeforce and will be fighting Sarah D'Alelio on the undercard of Fedor vs. Henderson on July 30.
2) Hiroko Yamanaka (11-1)
This 5'11" former dominatrix is generally ranked #2 in the world. She's had one loss, to Hitomi Akano, which she has since avenged. She doesn't have a hugely well rounded skillset, but her boxing, footwork, clinch game, excellent sprawl and highly unusual size, strength, and reach have been enough to make her an absolutely dominant force. Then again she's never fought in a cage, and never been in a match where elbows are allowed. On the other hand, she has actually called Cyborg out. Having previously fought at Openweight at 169 lbs., she actually dropped all the way down to 143, seemingly in hopes of getting signed by Strikeforce, and actually has gotten better as a fighter since dropping weight. From a marketing standpoint, the fact that she's pretty easy eyes, combined with her former vocation, also make her easy to market. I don't know what the true pecking order is, but I think no matter how you slice it this girl is in the very top echelon. And winning a tournament like this could make a case that she's #1.
1) Amanda Nunes (6-1)
She's the one on the right, glaring at Julia Budd like she stole her boyfriend.
Amanda Nunes' record bares some striking similarities to Milana Dudieva, listed earlier. "The Lioness of the Ring" lost her first match, only to come surging back, and won the next five all by stoppage. Her victims weren't all unknowns though. She beat Ediane Gomes whom I mentioned earlier in this article, and current Top 10 Bantamweight Vanessa Porto. And then she won her sixth straight this past January, smashing the aforementioned Julia Budd in just 14 seconds. Lithe, extremely athletic, and mean, and sporting one of the best nicknames in the sport, this former amateur boxer and BJJ practitioner seemingly had earned the #1 Contender spot, at the age of 23. Except 145 wasn't fully on her mind. She was not a natural 145 lbs. fighter and wanted to add more muscle first. Whether she was dodging Cyborg, I have no idea, but I don't think it's really fair to accuse her of wanting to be as prepared as possible before facing her. And for Cyborg, fighting in Strikeforce apparently wasn't on her mind, at least until she got a new contract. Thus Nunes took a fight with Julie Kedzie at 135 in the interim, which she unfortunately had to pull out of after breaking her foot. As far as I'm concerned, with Cyborg gone for now, Nunes is the baddest woman in Strikeforce, and has all the tools to be the baddest woman on the planet. She just needs to go ahead and prove it now.
As far as brackets, I'm not really sure how that'd go. Possibly something like this:
Winner of: Gina Carano vs. Milena Dudieva
vs.
Winner of: Amanda Nunes vs. Rin Nakai
VS.
Winner of: Ronda Rousey vs. Romy Ruyssen
vs.
Winner of: Hiroko Yamanaka vs. Julia Budd
I'm open to suggestions though.
At any rate, would this hypothetical tournament actually produce someone better than Cyborg? If Cyborg isn't fighting, or at least isn't fighting anyone worthwhile, then we wouldn't actually know. But for a promoter, perception is as if not more important than reality, and in order to replace Cyborg, they do need to create the perception that someone is her equal or better. If you can put the best of the rest in a single tournament, and have them fight it out, while Cyborg fights lesser fighters like Fedor did, the end result may be that the women fighting where the concentration of talent is may surpass Cyborg anyway. Training to fight someone just as good as you is going to make you better than training to fight some journeywoman. And I'd watch this tournament anyway. Thoughts, suggestions, insults, and ad hominem attacks are all welcome. Idiotic comments about how women shouldn't be fighting are also welcome.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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solid beast of a post
nice legwork put into it
good work mate I rec’d
¬_¬
by ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ on Jul 1, 2011 7:17 AM EDT reply actions
No
She’s basically finished. She’s 34, can’t make weight (Last fight was at 160 per her request), can’t beat lower level fighters, and she’s a complete head case.
Meet me on Monsta Island. Where the girls look good and the MC's be Wildin'.
Also, follow me on Twitter @DeoWade
Sounds like my last girlfriend.
High-ohhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by BJJDenver on Jul 1, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Frankly
the failed signing smacks of women’s MMA disappearing from under the Zuffa banner. They won’t be in the UFC anytime soon and we can all plug our ears, but we will still hear the clock ticking on the eventual “demise” of the Strikeforce brand.
This could be the best thing or the worst thing to happen to women’s MMA. Either they lose the exposure of a top promotion or they gather under one banner and help build a promotion to new heights, having all of the best female fighters under one umbrella. For instance, say UFC leaves Spike, Spike brings in Bellator and Bellator creates an entire full-blown women’s side, which airs on its own on Spike. If marketed properly, I could see this making a splash to an extent. Of course, they would play up the sexuality and try to exploit it, but hey, that would just give us all something to bitch about.
And yes, excellent post!
Strikeforce signed Alexis Davis and Sarah D’Alelio (okay the latter wasn’t a major signing but whatever), and re-signed Shayna Baszler and Julie Kedzie, and tried to sign Ronda Rousey, all in the last two months. They’ve also tried to give everyone of those people matches, even if some of them have fallen through due to injuries and whatever happened to Gina Carano. Rich Chou didn’t seem to give a fuck about Women’s MMA, but Sean Shelby seems to be trying, certainly with 135, and again he tried to get Rousey. So I’m willing to give Strikeforce a chance right now.
While I enjoy Womens MMA, I just could not see it as viable and profitable being a standalone product. If Strikeforce gets folded into the UFC, then I can see another MMA organization like Bellator, Shark Fights, XFC, or another MMA organization trying to build those Womens divisions, alongside the Mens divisions, seeing as they are a novelty and something that the UFC doesn’t have.
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There's a very good reason for no Erin Toughill
Actually two very good reasons, but whatever. These are separate from her being simply loony.
1) She cannot make 145, and in fact never has
She has had multiple chances to make 145, first for a title shot, then for a #1 contender’s shot (against Shana Olsen). She had to withdraw from her title shot several weeks ahead of time because she didn’t feel she could make the weight, then when Shana Olsen called her out, making light of her weight (“put down the fork”), she was offered a #1 contender’s match against her and she still couldn’t agree because she didn’t think she could make weight. Coker said he would not use her again until she made 145. If those weren’t motivation to make 145, I don’t know what more can be done. The fact is she’s never even been that light. In fact the lightest she’s ever been more a match was a catchweight of 148 against Emily Thompson.
2) She no longer has the resume, and apparently is just is not good enough anymore
She may or may not be better than a few people on the list (if you include alternates), but she has fought only once in the last two years, against an opponent handpicked to lose to her who was coming off an even longer lay-off, and her opponent simply embarrassed her. I put her on the list in fact, Ashley Sanchez is Alternate #2. This was 160 catchweight, so Erin Toughill would have to cut as little weight as possible (although evidently she did still cut some weight since she came in at 161), and she was still a bit pudgy in the middle. I’m aware she once beat Marloes Coenen, but that was in 2004. One person has gotten a whole lot better since then, and the other has had three extended layoffs from the sport since then and has seriously deteriorated over her last one. Until she can proves she can even come close to 145 again, and wins a match, she doesn’t belong on a list like this.
by Chromium on Jul 1, 2011 12:36 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Right on about Erin Toughill. You also should have gon farther:
Her attitude
3) Erin is a complete lunatic who thinks she’s gods gift to WMMA. She constantly trashtalks other fighters. She’s a hypocrite. Erin constantly calls out other fighters with no real intention of ever fighting them. She never takes responsibility and blames everyone else for her own failures.
4) Her Sills
Even before her embarrassing loss to Sanchez Erin was always extremely overrated.In the past 6 years she has struggled to beat such monster fighters such as Emily Thompson and just barely beat the same Jan Finney who Cyborg nearly murdered. Erin is too slow ,not athletic enough and not strong enough to keep up with Cyborg and she knows this, that’s why Erin has spent the last 2 years avoiding a fight with Cyborg and her performance against Sanchez shows that was a very wise choice on her part. Her combined MMA and boxing record she has a grand total of only 5 stoppages and now compare that to the records of other elite fighters and her records is not particularly good. Now everybody is now seeing what I have seen since her fight with Laila Ali, a loony who is a sightly above average fighter who’s been exposed as such with a very big mouth who only got away with her BS for so long just because she’s hot.
Looks Good
I’m glad to see Yamanaka and Nakai included
plus Ruyssen and Dudieva help with the international-world flavor
maybe figure in a few more from Asia or Australia somewhere
and some Latinos if there are any
yeah for old times sake Toughill would be good as an alternate too
FYI Cyborg beat Marloes Coenen who had fought at 145+ her entire career when and was ranked top 5 and only fought at 135lbs for the first time last October against Kaufman for the title, she stated this herself on many different occasions. The girl who would be an acceptable replacement for Cyborg should be the girl who has the best chance of beating her. Every fighter on your list is a complete squash match for Cyborg with the possible exception of Ronda Rousey and that is why she could be the replacement for Cyborg if she doesn’t come back to SF. Btw SF will resign her when they have somebody for her to fight, right now there is nobody for her to fight.
"FYI"
I’m well aware of Coenen’s history. Please tell me what that has to do with anything. Coenen is the 135 Champion and there is every indication she is staying there. I’m not about to fantasy book anything that’s highly implausible or that will fuck up other divisions.
First off, you don’t think a tournament would establish who would be the toughest hypothetical challenge for Cyborg?
Beyond that, no, Nunes is not “a complete squash match” for Cyborg. For that matter neither is Yamanaka. And Rousey has so much potential it’s not even funny. Then you have Olympic wrestlers getting into the sport who might just up-end the entire playing field. Of course we could argue this all day long but it’s a moot point if Cyborg won’t be facing any of those people.
Obviously Cyborg is quite the monster, but feeding her a can like Jan Finney in a completely non-competitive match is the sort of shit you see in boxing and made Cyborg seem way badder than she actually is. Coenen and Carano were really good victories for her. Besides that she’s beaten Akano (Cyborg could only make it down to 150 against a girl who is a natural 125 fighter; that’s like Jon Jones fighting Josh Koscheck at 210 catchweight and she still couldn’t finish her until the third round); Yoko Takahashi (tough girl but she’s 17-13-2, and got retired by Shana Olsen, plus Cyborg failed to finish her); and Shayna Baszler (really good at 135 but I could only rank her fifth at best again one weight class below Cyborg). She has very fucking far from cleaned out the division. Mainly because most of her opponents aren’t even in her division. Not her fault, but it’s a reality. We’ve seen lots and lots of fighters lately who had auras of invincibility become “exposed” lately, and Cyborg just hasn’t earned the benefit of the doubt the way Anderson Silva or GSP have.
As for her not having anyone to fight that is completely and utter fucking bullshit. Under Rich Chou they had no problem feeding her a tomato can, but they wouldn’t sign Hiroko Yamanaka who is a far, far superior fighter to Finney and more marketable on top of that and who had actually called Cyborg out, and also lost 25 pounds in order to fit into Cyborg’s weight class. And that was before the Finney fight. Strikeforce even admitted they just found Finney on YouTube, although even that’s not really an excuse. Perhaps Cyborg will come back to fight for Strikeforce when they aren’t extremely far apart on money, which was true when she was negotiating with Coker even before Zuffa bought them out, or maybe she’ll be under contract elsewhere.
Even if you want to ignore all of that, you still missed the point of the article. The point is to find whoever has the best chance of replacing Cyborg’s credibility, because she may not be coming back at all. Meanwhile Women’s MMA could come into serious trouble. Maybe you wouldn’t personally accept another girl as Cyborg’s superior, but that doesn’t mean someone couldn’t be built up to be that in the eyes of the public. And without Cyborg there to fight any of these girls she can be doing what Fedor was doing between August of 2005 and July of 2008 and fighting second and third-tier fighters in sad mismatches. Until she and Zuffa come to terms, if they ever do, there’s still a division that needs booking.
Cyborg is ranked no lower than #2 on every p4p ranking in the world. So she is not overrated and is willing to fight anyone, the problem is that very few want to fight her. Yamanaka who is even bigger than Cyborg got submitted by the same natural 125lb Hitomi Akano who you were just talking about and then only defeated her in a split decision in their second match. FYI 8 of her 10 victories have come by decision and 9 of her 11 victories have come against girls with losing records or fighters making their pro debut and she wasn’t brought over because of her visa issues. Rin Nakai’s last opponent FYI was 6-23-1 and neither of her 2 opponents before her had winning records and while fighting these gems still hasn’t responded to being called out by Yamanaka, Modeffari, Akano and others. Finney was a mismatch that was only made after Toughill pulled out of yet another fight and 7 other fighters turned down fight the fight with Cyborg and besides most of the fighters you mentioned weren’t even on the radar when that fight was booked. As for Nunes she was offered the Cyborg fight and turned it down while at the same time calling out Gina Carano who fights in the same class as Cyborg and after coming to the US with the specific intention of fighting at 145lbs. Please tell me If there were so many girls for Cyborg to fight why has she been sitting on the sidelines for a year? Because Strikeforce likes having their 2nd biggest female attraction sitting on the sidelines? She was still champion and signed with Strikeforce, why no fights? If their are so many opponents willing to fight her right now, why haven’t they stepped forward?She hasn’t been re signed because of money, but primarily because they can’t find a credible opponent and like I said before Rousey at least so is the only real threat on your list, the rest are squash matches.
Okay, this is partly a reiteration of my response to you in the Gal’s Guide to MMA blog, but who knows if Yamanaka would be finishing more people if she wasn’t forced to wear those bigger puffy gloves, didn’t have to fight in 3 minute rounds, and was allowed to use elbows. Finishes in Japan are decidedly rarer than outside of there. Also, if you’re going to use MMAth, Amanda Nunes TKO’d Vanessa Porto when Cyborg merely decisioned her. How do those two things tie together? Because fighters are not the same match-to-match, and using MMAth like that is just ignorant. Since Cyborg beat Porto and Akano armbarred Yamanaka, Yamanaka got a lot better. Cyborg got better. Akano got better (at least one would think as much training at AACC where she and Megumi Fujii are BFFs). Porto probably got better. Since Nunes beat Porto she’s gotten better too. Coenen certainly got worlds better after she lost to Erin Toughill. Coenen went from being primarily a kickboxer to being nicknamed “Rumina.” Meanwhile Toughill got fatter. I’ll leave out the fact that Cyborg was fighting Akano when she weighed in at 150, and Yamanaka weighed in at 143. If Cyborg had 5 lbs. less muscle when Akano caught her in a flying armbar, would she have been able to power out of it like she did? Probably, but we don’t know that for a fact. Could Rin Nakai pose a serious threat to Cyborg? Probably not, but it would be nice if they fought. Would Amanda Nunes knock out Cyborg? I think she would be the heavy underdog on the betting line, but Cyborg would be a fool to think of that match as being as much of a foregone conclusion as you seem to. She might just end up knocked the fuck out. Nunes is 23 years old, a brown belt in judo and a brown belt in BJJ already (because of time requirements it’s really difficult to get a black belt in BJJ in less than 6 years even if you’re amazing), trains in muay thai and boxing, and just continues to improve.
So let everyone fight and find out. Everyone willing to fight anyway. Ronda Rousey apparently just signed with Strikeforce, which was only announced since I wrote this article, so things seem to be progressing.
And I thought the answer for your last question (actually your last four questions) about Cyborg has been sitting on the sidelines for so long was well known since the story broke: her contract was up. She was acquired from EliteXC just like Jake Shields was. They had a one-year exclusive negotiation period following her win over Jan Finney, and that’s expired now. Also Rich Chou was a mediocre matchmaker who didn’t give a damn about WMMA, so I doubt that helped matters. Even if Finney was their eighth choice or whatever, Jesus fuck that was a poor choice. Is she even one of the p4p Top 50 in WMMA?
As for Rin Nakai, she is owned by a Japanese talent agency. She is lucky she is not being asked to do A.V.s like (pro-wrestler) Michiko Ohmukai. You think she maintains a blog full of pictures of herself in lingerie by choice? She is pressured into that. I acknowledged her list of opponents is rightly questionable, but I seriously doubt she has much say in who she fights. Some fighters in JEWELS and Valkryrie are actually required to wear make-up for their fights. However I’ve also seen Nakai fight and I know how good she is. Nakai is an amazing athlete and has tons of potential. I think 135 would be a better fit for her, but as long as she’s fighting at 145 I’d love to see what she’s capable of.
Anyway if you want to give up on the entire division though, go ahead. Cyborg is the monster on top, but there are an increasing number of young lionesses rising up through the ranks. I think I acknowledged multiple times in the article how difficult it would be to replace her, but it’s hardly impossible.
I am ashamed.
I guess that I’m one of those MMA fans that don’t truly appreciate women’s MMA. I scrolled through the entire article just looking to see which fighters were/cute sexy.
Smh……
It’s basically on a level with mid 90s middleweight (later LHW) division in the UFC.
A few stars, lots of mistakes, and some ugly fights.
It's just a world, it's just a life.
Glad that someone else sees it that way too.
Meet me on Monsta Island. Where the girls look good and the MC's be Wildin'.
Also, follow me on Twitter @DeoWade
Welcome to female sports
Sex appeal is always going to be a part of it. If we had a 50+ senior circuit for MMA, it would get even less interest than women’s MMA, despite skill level probably being better. That’s probably true of most sports.
Women are burdened with the physical handicaps associated with femininity, so it makes perfect sense that more feminine fighters draw more awe and get more attention, just like very old or very young athletes are newsworthy. If you’re hot and can fight, that’s pretty impressive.
by paythefighters on Jul 4, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
She’s said she would be willing to fight Cyborg if she took a few fights at 135 first so she could build some muscle. Whether that constitutes “ducking” her or not I don’t know and is open to interpretation but she has stated an intent to return to 145 (I assume she took the fight against Budd to get her foot in the door; generally there are going to be more fights waiting for at 135 anyway). The last several fights before her fight against Budd I believe were at 140, where I believe she currently feels most comfortable. She’s still young enough that putting on muscle shouldn’t be as difficult, plus she’s 5’8", so it’s not like she’d be unnaturally thick at 155 training weight or whatever and her statement didn’t strike me as implausible.
I think the bigger money fights are at 135
145 is kind of dead weight right now.
by Urijah Bieber on Jul 2, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Except that Carano is there and now Rousey is there
along with the perception that the 145 Champion = baddest woman on the planet. Both 145 and 135 can be used as draws quite well imo. The lower weight divisions too if they were interested.
Carano's situation is very much in doubt
if there were any immediate money fights to be made at 45 Cyborg would have been resigned.
by Urijah Bieber on Jul 3, 2011 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes she switched to Jacksons and went through a 10-week training camp because she’s totally not serious and wants to only do Hollywood and never fight again. Carano is the person I expect to see in Strikeforce sooner of the two. Also look at the spikes in the graphhere that accompanied each of her previous fights. This is why she is coming back.
Beyond that the 145 division is still the one that has gotten the exposure and had the legacy of those two as the division where the Baddest Woman On Earth fights. The idea is to replace Cyborg, not to pretend she never existed.
Save the "she's a real fighter dood" and ratings lecture please bro
I beat that drum on here louder than anyone. Gina is one of the best. Her situation however is very much in doubt. You know, moving camps and doing a ten week training camp usually results in a fight no? She dropped out for unknown and mysterious reasons. Beyond that, it was never clear if her return to fighting was a long term commitment for several fights or years or just a one off before another break. Gina is a great fighter and I believe she wants to fight, but with her movie career and unknown medical issues – her situation is very much in doubt.
Had Gina fought and won, or the Budd Randamie fight ended in a KO, Cyborg would have been resigned.
by Urijah Bieber on Jul 4, 2011 3:36 AM EDT up reply actions
My understand is Gina Carano came into the camp at a whopping 190, and lost the required weight during it to be able to cut to 145. She was actually cleared to fight but her personal doctor felt that that amount of weight loss in such a short period of time was unhealthy enough that she should not be fighting. Rapid weightloss can . She took that doctor’s advice. Most fighters would probably have said “fuck it, I’m medically cleared, whatever” and fought anyway. I do not blame her for listening to her doctor though. Most people would be spooked if they were in that situation.
And your speculation on Cyborg is genuinely silly. Coker and Cyborg were reportedly very far apart. This continued under Zuffa, and Zuffa has more leverage than Strikeforce did. Also neither Budd nor Randamie would have been given the #1 Contender’s spot. Believe whatever you want though. Strikeforce has Ronda Rousey now, anyway, who is likely capable of carrying the Women’s 145 division on her back even without either Gina or Cyborg.
Had Randamie been the KO machine she was hoped or Gina fought
then Cyborg would have been marketable. There are no opponents for her now.
by Urijah Bieber on Jul 4, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Awesome post, my money is on Rousey.
I heard about her over a year ago when a guy on a Subaru forum I frequent mentioned her. He trains with her and her family and brought her to my attention. I didn’t think too much of it initially, as we’ve seen top level judokas in MMA, but this broad is different. She doesn’t carry the typical plodding and slow methodical pace of the Karos, Dong Hyun Kims, and Nakamuras of men’s MMA (you can argue pace for any of these guys, but they don’t even remotely come close to the frenetic antics of Rousey in the cage).
Having seen her perform, she appears to be big enough, athletic enough, and strong enough to hang with Cyborg. The fact that Carano was able to secure full mount on Cyborg (which she simply gave up which confounds me to this day) gives me absolute belief that Rousey can not only do the same, but to devastating effect.
I’d put my money on Rousey to not only win the title, but also be the shoulders on which women’s MMA can exit the dark ages. Rousey’s got the package goods – great looks, English as a first language, sounds and looks good on camera, incredible build, and the chops in the cage to prove it.
This pic does as much for me as the epic Carano lip bite gif.
The dude abides.
by wrxdonkey on Jul 3, 2011 7:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Don't sleep on Meisha Tate.
I could see Meisha moving up.
But yeah Rousey is a beast and a half.
Learn JiuJitsu.
The fact that Carano was able to secure full mount on Cyborg (which she simply gave up which confounds me to this day)
That baffled me too, and she must be looking at lost opportunity with regret. If she pulled out that win, I’d put Carano on my list of female athlete of the decade. In a sport where masculine traits are so useful (look at how Cyborg can ragdoll any one of her opponents), it would have been an incredible testament to her skill and grit for a woman as hot as Carano to win.
by paythefighters on Jul 4, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Drop 145 and focus on 135/125
There’s a lack of legitimate 145’s in WMMA, smarter to focus on 125/135. Belator had the right idea on this.
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