Nik Lentz Coach Claims Charles Oliveira Fight Declared No Contest
by Fraser Coffeen on Jun 27, 2011 1:01 PM EDT
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Greg Nelson of Minnesota Martial Arts and the coach for UFC fighter Nik Lentz stated on his Facebook page today that the controversial Charles Oliveira vs. Nik Lentz fight from UFC on Versus 4 last night has been ruled a no contest:
Nik wins Fight Of The Night Bonus, and the fight was ruled a No Contest due to the illegal knee. Back home then up to watch my sons soccer games in Duluth tomorrow. Then back to the Academy solid til mid July. Volkmann next for UFC in August.
The No Contest ruling has not yet been officially announced or confirmed by either the UFC or the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission, although the UFC has announced Oliveira vs. Lentz as Fight of the Night.
Featured on the Facebook prelims, this was shaping up to be an excellent fight until Oliveira landed an illegal knee in the 2nd round. The blow was not called by the referee, but severly stunned Lentz, allowing Oliveira to secure the submission victory not long after.
UPDATE: MMA Weekly tweeted the following:
PA Commission said they will have a ruling on the Lentz/Oliveira case later this week. Nothing has been decided yet. #UFCless than a minute ago via HootSuite 
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I'm not
Oliveira is a very talented fighter, and was winning that fight without the illegal knee. Maybe he wouldn’t have finished him, but he could have in the third, or taken the decision. The knee was obviously unintentional, and I believe that in this case it should have gone to technical decision (or whatever it’s called) because he was obviously doing very well.
One more thing I would like to point out, Michael Bisping, the dick that he is, was never penalized for his intentional illegal knee against Jorge Rivera in a fight that was not one sided in his favor. I find it unfair that Oliveira would be penalized more than Bisping.
Let the fighters fight, let the referees ref, but dear God, don't let the judges judge.
by halitosis on Jun 27, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
it would be criminal if this wasn't overturned.
hope it’s true.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 27, 2011 1:06 PM EDT reply actions
It should be.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 27, 2011 1:06 PM EDT reply actions
The illegal knee didn’t finish the fight, and it was the idiot ref’s fault for not noticing it and stepping in to give Lentz some recovery time. If Bisping still has his win over Rivera, then this win should stand too. Like in any other sport, if the official doesn’t declare a foul then it shouldn’t be retroactively ruled as a foul.
Bisping was stopped and deducted a point
Ergo, he was punished in the fight already (plus whatever UFC claims to have done themselves afterwards for his conduct)
its too bad rumble-burns and jones-hammil weren’t contested in PA – if this is true; this is a pretty effective AC
the commission reviewed Jones Hammil and stood by the decision, people need to get over it. The illegal strikes stopped the fight.
In that case, as Rob Young mentioned, since the RNC stopped this fight, and not the illegal strike, this shouldn’t be overturned either, correct?
Holy run-on sentences, Batman.
GSP - A machine designed specifically to stop Jon Fitch from ever becoming champion.
I’m not really sure what should be done with this fight, but people need to drop the Hammil thing, the fight is over and several officials have said it was handled correctly.
No,
Hammil wouldn’t have continued anyway. He took a shoulder injury and wouldn’t have been able to continue. The illegal strikes, thrown or not thrown, made no difference in Hammil’s ability to continue.
Let the fighters fight, let the referees ref, but dear God, don't let the judges judge.
This should be a no brainer over turn
CLEAR illegal knee completely missed/ignored by the ref.
this fight was lentz' best fight in his career
and it was ruled to NC.
I say book “do Bronx vs Lentz II”
Matt "The Terror" Serra!!!!
If any amateur MMA organization in NE is looking for an Asian fighter, let me know =)
Right thing to do.
However, for matchmaking purposes, they should be booked as if Oliveira won and Lentz lost. It was a competitive fight but Lentz was getting brutalized even before the illegal knee.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jun 27, 2011 1:18 PM EDT reply actions
I’d like to see a rematch.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 27, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
MMA fans love rematches way, WAY too much.
That’s more time that both guys are basically treading water in the division when you could have Oliveira start making progress up the ranks and give Lentz a fight to rebound from being mauled. Not every wonky finish needs a redo.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jun 27, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are PLENTY of LWs ranked far, far above Do Bronx. I’m in no rush to see him ascend.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 27, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
...and?
Let’s see him start fighting those guys. Oliveira has a shitload of potential waiting to be realized. Don’t waste my time or his by making him go through another full training camp (plus whatever time Lentz needs off to heal) to fight a guy that he beat the fuck out of for a round and a half before making an error in judgment. Reminds me of the sadists who wanted to see a Jones/Hamill instant rematch so that Jones could “get that win back”, as if there was any question what the end result would be.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jun 27, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
well
lentz was doing a shit ton better in that fight than hamill was in his.
sure, he lost the first, and he was losing the second, but remember he finished his fight before that one with a last second guillotine. he had a good choke attempt in the first. hamill didn’t do anything EVEN CLOSE to as impressive as that.
that knee broke lentz’s orbital bone and decided the fight. oliveira was winning that fight, but lentz had a legitimate shot until the knee.
hammil/bones what happened was that his shoulder got dislocated from the throw and then the reff stopped the fight for illegal elbows. hammill couldn’t continue, but not because of the illegal strikes (that’s my understanding).
in the end i don’t care much. a rematch would be a great fight. on the other hand, especially if lentz is on the shelf for a while, i would not mind seeing oliveira fight someone else. it’s not like shogun/machida, where shogun got robbed and deserved another shot. a no-contest is fair result for both guys and they can move on.
bottom line – i don’t care either way – but no reason for oliveira to wait around for lentz’s face to heal. they should both get good fighters in their next bout
Yeah, Oliveira was winning, but in no way was Lentz out of the fight, and based on his reputation, people shouldn’t automatically assume anything different.
GSP - A machine designed specifically to stop Jon Fitch from ever becoming champion.
First half of the second he was getting caught clean over and over and over.
Lentz is a tough gritty dude, but a rematch is a waste of everyone’s time. We have a good idea of how they match up together and where their skills stand in respect to one another. Give Lentz a rebound and Charles a step up.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jun 27, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
STILL UNDEFEATED!!!!1!!11!
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jun 27, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
On a side note...
…I read a piece on Greg Nelson in Fighters Only a few months back and he is a really interesting coach. Gets his guys doing a lot of JKD/Filipino stuff on top of the more conventional MMA training and is a big believer of training BJJ in the gi (increasingly a novelty amongst guys training pure MMA).
Strange then how most of his fighters are such dull grinders like Lentz…
"Anyone who enjoys watching sport on television is an imbecile; a dangle-mouthed, cud-chewing, salivating ding-dong with a brain full of dim piss, blobbing out in front of a box watching a grunting thicko knock a ball round a field while their own sad carcass gently coagulates into a wobbling mass of beer and fat and thick white heart-attack gravy" - Charlie Brooker
Oliveira has quickly become one of those most entertaining fighters in MMA. The exact opposite of a wet blanket.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jun 27, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm torn
This should be a no-contest or a “go to the score cards at the time of the foul” deal… but I can’t stand that the knee was illegal in the first place.
I have no interest in seeing them fight again. Lentz had nothing for him. Like to see Bronx vs Mark Bocek
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
I don’t think they can go to the scorecards at that point in the fight. It wasn’t even halfway through.
And people keep saying that Lentz had nothing for him…what about the deep guillotine that had Oliveira in very real danger?
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
He had his moments
but it wasn’t very competitive for the most part.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Jun 27, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It happens
you’re just wrong sometimes ;)
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
Lentz has continually shown a lot of heart in bad situations. He almost ended the fight himself, and while he lost the first round, until the illegal strike I wasn’t think “this kid’s gettin’ smoked” by any means.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
I’ll never deny that Lentz has heart. That dude has it in spades, but after the first few mins of the fight it seemed like a forgone conclusion to me. He had no answer for the speed and aggressiveness of Charles, imo.
Also… that knee should be legal.
Also… I need to take another look at the knee because on the replay it didn’t look like the illegal knee is what busted Nicks face. It was really hard to see, though.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Whether the knee should be legal or not is completely pointless. You know that.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
True
I just like saying it
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
that knee should be legal
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
How can you say Lentz had nothing. It was back and forth in both rounds until the illegal knee! Blatant Oliveira love/Lentz hate is making people make ridiculous claims. Even if he was thouroghly dominating, an illegal strike is an illegal strike regardless of what so many seem to ‘know’ what was going to happen. You guys should be working for Miss Cleo with that kind of clairvoyance!
That's not how I saw it at all
Broz won the first convincingly and it was only getting worse for Lentz from there.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
This really whole Lentz had nothing for him viewpoint has eveything to do with people hating Lent’s style and loving Oliveira’s. Oliveira won the first but not by a ton or anything. Lentz landed a lot of clean punches on the feet and the grappling was very back and forth and even.
I don't dislike Lentz
at all.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
A lot of clean arm punches.
It’s like people have no perception of clean damaging punches vs punches that land but do no real damage.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jun 27, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
In PA, if the first 2 rounds haven’t been completed, it can’t go to the cards.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 28, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
IMO this is a real shame for Charles. Because honestly I don’t think it would have ended any other way. He was gonna knock him out or sub him regardless. But it is the right call that’s why they need to get rid of this stupid rule. If u have your torso on the ground then I think u should not be able to knee or lick but any other position, should be fair game.
by J smooth 420 on Jun 27, 2011 1:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
A rematch down the road would be interesting but with Lentz’ injury, Oliveira should keep fighting and Lentz should get a comeback fight after that
Lentz-Guida
Oliviera-Pettis
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
i like it
but that matches up winner/loser and winner/loser.
and i have no desire to see guida blanket another exciting fighter.
I know...
it’s fantasy, but if it’s declared a NC….maybe? And Guida only blankets guys that don’t have the movement, offense or defensive wrestling to stop him- after what I saw from do Bronx last night, I don’t think that Guida would be able to.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
good point
florian is susceptible to wrestlers but he handled guida all right. so did sanchez in my opinion.
perfection! Although I wouldn’t want to see either Pettis or Oliveira lose :( but fuck it, it’d be damn exciting!!!
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jun 27, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
you can't be serious?
Lentz…. GUIDA? The same guida that JUST beat the #1 contender at LW? That guida?
please
Pettis’ #1 contendership had nothing to do with UFC performance… and yes- if this is overturned to a NC, Lentz will be 5-0-2 in the deepest division in the sport- I think that Guida would absolutely be an appropriate fight.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Lentz fighting Guida = Guida dominates Lentz
People are mad overrating Lentz.
So close and yet so far. The story of my sports fandom.
we don't know what Lentz is yet...
I’d like to find out.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
We know what he is
A serviceable UFC fighter with absolutely no regard for defense.
So close and yet so far. The story of my sports fandom.
And let's not forget Winner was landing in the stand-up
Prior to the Fence-and-Lentz.
So close and yet so far. The story of my sports fandom.
That's the thing.
People want to make him into more than he is because he hasn’t lost and he’s a bit of an infamous name because of that Winner debacle. But really…he’s not that good. He’s tough, he works hard, and he does as much as he can with what skills he has but he’s not an upper echelon fighter or even an upper mid tier guy. He’s a solid lower mid card guy. All the fretting over Lentz wall and stalling his way to the belt was unfounded and a bit idiotic. Dude couldn’t take down Andre Winner with any sort of regularity.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jun 27, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
He's 28...
I haven’t seen anyone saying he’s the uncrowned king, but his style and the unified rules may allow him to outperform his talent. I don’t think he’ll be a top 5 guy, but I think that his ceiling is solid Top10-15… why can’t he be a Clay Guida?
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Guida’s quicker, sets up his shots better, has better anti-grappling, and is a tough sonuvabitch. Lentz is tough too, but it seems from my layman’s perspective that it’s his best attribute and that alone isn’t enough to cut it. His wrestling is so-so, his stand-up looks good but isn’t technical enough or powerful enough to be effective, and his submission game is unproven.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
Chief Editor of Nobody Gives a Fuck About Your Blog
by lowellthehammer on Jun 27, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I still have no clue as to how the ref missed that.
He was right there and looking right at them. It wasn’t even like Lentz was on his way up- don’t get it.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 1:44 PM EDT reply actions
if he didn't see it...
he didn’t see it. He’s not going to take the fighter’s word for it. I only saw the fight after on a shitty quality stream- did he complain immediately, or after Oliveira had his back?
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
No your missing the point. Immediately after the fight the camera panned to the ref talking to an official(i think) who said that was an illegal knee, to which the ref said, ‘yea I saw that, but before i could step in he got the choke in’. which was outright false.
LOL
the choke was a full 45 seconds after the knee.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
did you read the comment I was responding to?
I meant that as proof that the ref was bullshitting by saying he didn’t have time ste p in. Get off my lawn!
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think it’s 50/50 this actually gets changed to a NC
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 27, 2011 1:44 PM EDT reply actions
didn't you mentiont in the live results...
that PA doesn’t have a replay rule?
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure if they do or not. But I do know that even with a replay rule it’s tricky. When the fight is stopped on the knee (like, had it knocked Lentz out) then they’d be able to immediately look at the replay and say that it was the direct cause of the end. Once the ref doesn’t call something and action continues for a bit it gets murky. Even if it was ended fairly quickly afterward.
Like, they SHOULD be able to overturn it and it SHOULD get overturned, but it’s one of those situations where they could just as easily say that the foul was missed but wasn’t the “direct” cause of the finish. One of those things where refs WILL mess up sometimes and the commissions are VERY cautious about overturning fights and setting precedent where fighters expect every missed call to get fights overturned.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 27, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I totally agree. It creates a slippery sloe when the illegal strike doesn’t cause a direct KO. If this gets overturned, do we have to overturn Bisping-Rivera and the like?
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
No because Bisping was decuted a point
His infraction was properly handled, and Rivera was given a chance to recover and continue.
good point
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
And the same thing should have happened in this fight, but it didn't.
Who should be punished for an improper handling of this infraction?
The referee
He may have had a talking to. But this could be a way for the commission to make amends with a fighter for failing them. Rivera wasn’t failed, as he was given the time needed to continue and Bisping docked a point.
Not Nik Lentz, as you keep suggesting.
Oliveira did something wrong. He did something illegal and received no punishment. Letting him keep the W is like telling a Bernie Madoff that he can keep the mansions and boats he bought because the SEC didn’t stop him from taking the money soon enough.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jun 27, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
exactly.
Overturning a win is a much harsher penalty than deducting a point.
You’re suggesting Oliveira’s punishment for the illegal knee should be harsher because the ref fucked up.
That would assume a technical decision, such as Varner vs. Cerrone I,
where round one goes to Oliviera, he is docked a point, and the fight is ruled a draw based on the one complete round (which isn’t how those decisions work anyways since it needs to be in later rounds, but I’ll humor you with how it WOULD go in a world that allowed it). A No Decision such as with the recent Wilcox vs. JZ fight is also applicable since no reasonable conclusion could be drawn in a fight that short. Changing it to a No Contest, Draw, or No Decision are all just semantics for a push.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Wilcox couldn't continue after the eye-butt
Lentz continued fighting after the knee.
Because he wasn’t given an opportunity to recover from an illegal blow. Why is it that the one that threw the illegal blow deserves more protection in your opinion in this situation than the one who was hit by it?
by Jamie Penick on Jun 27, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lentz deserved to have an opportunity to recover.
Oliveira deserved to have a point deducted for the illegal knee.
It’s the ref’s fault that this didn’t happen, not Oliveira’s fault.
So punish the guy for trying to stay alive when the referee wouldn't save him and the opponent broke the rules?
Reward the guy who threw a blatantly illegal strike. Got it. You getting added to my unofficial DNR list per my sig. pdl out.
/Randall Munroe’d.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
If the knee KO'd Lentz I'd be all for disqualifying Oliveira.
If the knee didn’t finish off Lentz, which it didn’t, I’m all for deducting a point from Oliveira.
but you people talking about “fairness” and “Punishment” makes sense?
It’s not fair to take away the win from the guy who threw an illegal strike but somehow it’s fair for a guy that got hit with an illegal strike that directly lead to him losing?
IMO the illegal knee Bisping landed on Rivera directly led to him losing.
Bisping was deducted a point.
by Rob Young on Jun 27, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rivera was also given a break and the option of whether or not to continue
If he had have said he couldn’t continue the fight would have been a DQ or a NC.
Lentz wasn’t given that option. Ruling it a NC essentially renders the fight a wash, it’s not punishment to Olivera, and it’s not rewarding Lentz but rather acknowledging a mistake that rendered the fight invalid.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
I’m in the minority that thinks this should not be overturned, and no, I’m not being biased (and haven’t even watched the fight). It was the mistake of the ref, and it sucks but get better refs and this type of stuff won’t happen. Refs are responsible for a lot of bad calls, doesn’t mean we should go back through every single one of them and change them as we see fit.
Lentz seems like he got screwed for sure though, I feel bad for him, but doesn’t mean we should overturn the result.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
by Orcus on Jun 27, 2011 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I actually agree with you.
It would create a real slippery slope- it’s impossible to tell (outside of the most blatant instances) exactly how an illegal strike affects a fight- do yourself a favor though, and watch the fight!
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm with you
for reasons I have posted elsewhere on this page.
I love prefacing this with "no, I'm not being biased (but I'm speaking from a position of total ignorance)"
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 27, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
that's because you're biased
so all you see is “ignorance” in your view, most of your post are biased and ignorant to be honest.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
That's crazy.
You’re my boy Orcus, but it’s just crazy to say that Lentz got screwed, yet the result of the fight shouldn’t be overturned.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
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by ElliotMatheny on Jun 27, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
then we should overturn all fight results where fighters get screwed by a referee call, there are quite a few. why make an exception here?
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
We SHOULD overturn those.
If a ref fucks up a call, misses a foul, etc, and it leads DIRECTLY to a finish, then it absolutely should be appealed and overturned.
The official result should reflect what happened in the fight. Obviously Oliveira had a good showing, and turning the win into a No Contest doesn’t change the fact that he looked good. It just shows that sometimes shit happens. I’m not really yearning for a rematch or anything, but it’s only fair that Lentz doesn’t get fucked by poor reffing. Charles got his win bonus anyways, so it’s not like this will negatively impact him in any way other than taking away a W on his record that frankly, he didn’t EARN.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jun 28, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
there are a lot of bad calls, to change every single bad call into a NC is making a mockery of the sport, making it a waste of time. fighters go out, train, injure themselves and fight to have it declared a NC.
Your second paragraph is irrelevant to me, I don’t care how the fight was going, I don’t care who earned what, it doesn’t really matter to me, what matters are rules and following the rules as the fight is happening, and if the rules aren’t being followed then we should fix the problem. changing it to a no-contest doesn’t fix the problem, disciplining the referee should minimize it however…
and you’re right, shit does happens sometimes, people do get screwed, it’s a common life phenomenon and unfortunately this time it was Lentz.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
Fortunately for Lentz,
and all fighters who could be the victim of poor officiating, it looks like they will at least give it consideration. I know you’re a man who is strongly opinionated and I doubt my arguments will convince you otherwise, so I’ll just say that we can agree to disagree.
I’ll leave on the note that hindsight is 20/20, and in a sport where these guys do put in so much work to succeed, I don’t think anything but complete accuracy is acceptable. Rewarding fighters who benefited from judge’s incompetence is as unfair as the fighters who get screwed by it, no matter who you’re rooting for.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jun 28, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
sure, we'll agree to disagree but...
all fighters who could be the victim of poor officiating, it looks like they will at least give it consideration.
except they don’t.
I know you’re a man who is strongly opinionated and I doubt my arguments will convince you otherwise
aren’t we all? :p
I’ll leave on the note that hindsight is 20/20, and in a sport where these guys do put in so much work to succeed, I don’t think anything but complete accuracy is acceptable
there will never be complete accuracy, ever…
Rewarding fighters who benefited from judge’s incompetence is as unfair as the fighters who get screwed by it
you cannot overturn decisions for fighters that lost due to judges incompetence, the official result is official… we shouldn’t go back and change them, just like we see fighter losing a fight on the judges card that everyone claims they won, let’s just make it an NC instead? let’s just make it an NC a fight where fighter A was winning on the score card but the fight was called when fighter B gave him a sequence of punches but that the referee thought was enough to end the fight, even though everyone thinks otherwise… let’s NC fights after the fight happens… this I’m 100% against, no matter what, and it doesn’t matter if it’s a guy I’m rooting for or against, it’s the way I feel about it, I think people bringing in bias claims are the ones being biased… but we’ll agree to disagree…
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
"there will never be complete accuracy, ever…"
While that’s true, we should strive for and demand as close to perfection as is possible.
I think you’re too set into the idea that the first decision is the right, and final one. In the case of judge’s decisions, I agree that you can’t go back after the decision has been made. I do think that more time and consideration should be put into the judge’s scorecards, even if it means filling the TV screen with some more recap before the decision is announced. But that’s for a different day.
The reason I think it should be a NC is for historical accuracy. Anyone who looks back a few years from now might think that Oliveira just subbed Lentz in the first round, fair and square. Having a NC on the record is a much more clear depiction of what actually happened in the fight. Context often gets lost in the annals of history.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jun 28, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s fair, I think this comes down to two different schools of thoughts, the following pretty much puts it in perspective:
we should strive for and demand as close to perfection as is possible.
The majority seems to think the way to perfect it is by going back and changing results, I just feel that the way to perfect it is to discipline referees/judges who are responsible for making the bad calls in the first place.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
Yeah, I think it's a bit of a combo of the two that is optimal.
Improve the judging and reffing quality, and allow for appeals after the initial decision. Everyone deserves due process.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jun 28, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
wel lthen
bisping/rivera should be a NC as well since imo that one was worse
This.
If this is ruled a No Contest, it’s only due to the referee’s ineptitude. I’m almost positive that Lentz would have opted to continue after the illegal knee if given recovery time and a choice.
no
but fighters do choose to proceed fighting when asked by doctors in the majority of fights, doesn’t mean he would have but I say the chances are quite high
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
by Orcus on Jun 27, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You can’t base anything here on the assumption that Lentz might or might not have continued. There are too many variables to take into account.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Also, they probably would have had the doctor check him who might have stopped it on a cut or broken orbital bone..etc.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 27, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I said Rob Young
had was reasonable in assuming that Lentz would probably proceed, but I agreed with you that there’s no way to know that, but in the majority of instances it is what happens…
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
There are too many variables to take into account indeed.
Too many things that could have happened differently if the ref did his job. The only thing Oliveira could do in that situation was “play the ball as it lies” so to speak. He did so and was awarded a submission victory. The call, as wrong as it is, should stand just like something similar in any other sport when dealing with ineptitude from officials.
When it is within the rules to overrule an official, what is there to complain about? If PA can do that, they should. The logic of “well, the other fuckups were allowed to skate, this one should be too” is ridiculous to me.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Jun 27, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If we can't base it on that assumption
Then basing anything on the assumption that Lentz was going to lose also seems dumb.
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by Derek Suboticki on Jun 27, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Whether he would have continued or not isn’t really relevant. If the right is stopped properly, there’s probably a 1% chance he gets choked out right after they continue.
lol
talk about pulling numbers out of no where…
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
by Orcus on Jun 27, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Action was stopped and Rivera was given the option to continue or not. Lentz was not afforded that opportunity.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 27, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
No. I’m just saying, comparing to Rivera/Bisping isn’t a fair comparison given that the referee caught the foul in that case.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 27, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s not a matter fault. It’s a matter of comparison to the Bisping/Rivera thing. It’s a completely different situation, since that fight was stopped after the illegal blow and this one wasn’t.
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The difference here is that ruling this fight a No Contest penalizes Oliveira for the referee’s ineptitude.
The illegal knee led to the finish. A NC isn’t penalizing Oliveira. He’s the one that landed the illegal strike.
Still a Beer Monster.
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but he didn't mean to hit him with the illegal strike (from what I keep reading and the gif that I saw)
it’s like low blows, not always are they meant to hit them there, the fight should have been stopped, and taking the W away from Oliveira does penalize him IMO.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
by Orcus on Jun 27, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with that, sometimes a referee misses stuff and it’s unfortunate. But this is a case where the commission was right there saying “he fucked up”.
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certainly
I just don’t think they should overturn the result though, that’s penalizing the fighter and not the ref who was responsible.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
The fighter threw the illegal strike though! They should both be penalized. Oliveira shouldn’t slide on a technicality, whether he meant to do it or not.
Even if they don’t overturn the result, Lentz deserves a rematch at least.
Still a Beer Monster.
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I'm cool with the rematch
but refs have been making bad calls from the beginning of the sport, the focus should really stay on the refs and the ACs should go after them so this type of screw ups gets reduced. Unless the ACs are only trying to shift blame to others and not acknowledge that the problems lies on their side.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
I don’t think an AC being proactive about a situation like this is a bad thing at all, and I’m surprised you do. While I agree with everything you said there, letting a fighter get a win from a blatantly illegal move just because of a referee fuck-up is wrong.
Still a Beer Monster.
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to be quite honest
this seems a bit like a which hunt to me, these types of things happens in MMA (damn you Gus!), they really do, you can’t single out lone instances when the problem lies somewhere else (such as the refs).
shifting blame and making this an NC will just place blame on Charles and people will forget that the problem lies with the ref and not the fighter, not ever fixing the real problem (which is the ref).
was the knee intentional? I’m currently downloading the fight since everyone is talking about it.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
damn facebook streams never work in Brazil...
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
It looked like he was expecting Lentz to get up and was timing the knee.
But that doesn’t matter because it was still illegal. The ref should have stopped the action, determined if Lentz can continue and if so, either deduct a point or warn Oliveira at his discretion. If Lentz couldn’t continue, disqualify Oliveira.
right
I’m just trying to figure out if Charles was being a dick or something, either way I think the result should stand, but it certainly would change my feelings towards him if he was being malicious.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
One thing's for sure,
He didn’t go to his opponent’s corner afterwards and say that the knee was intentional followed by expectoration of saliva.
A witch hunt on a fighter that threw an illegal blow? No man, it’s just people wanting to see some justice. Oliveira does deserve some blame, even if it was unintentional he needs to have better situational awareness. The real problem is both him throwing an illegal strike AND the ref.
Still a Beer Monster.
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see I disagree
the real problem is the ref, unintentional strikes do occur and will always occur, a fighter can be 100% focused and aware and unintentional illegal blows will still occur.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
by Orcus on Jun 27, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes that is true, but I think it should be changed because a commission official’s mistake led to a premature finish of the fight.
(Yes this is kind of a slippery slope if we start talking early or late stoppages but I’m pretty sure you know what I mean)
by IRodC on Jun 27, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
A NC is penalizing Oliveira.
Had the ref done his job, Oliveira could have been deducted a point, or warned at the very least. The fight would have continued and Oliveira would have most likely won anyways, a la Bisping/Rivera.
Again, you keep making assumptions. Your assumptions don’t mean squat. Who knows what would have happened if they take the point or give Lentz the time.
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Exactly, who knows.
The ref didn’t make the call and allowed the fight to continue. To retroactively make the result a NC isn’t fair IMO.
We can agree to disagree. I don’t see anything wrong with a NC and a rematch.
Still a Beer Monster.
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Rematches
are the worse, dude. These guys don’t have a long shelf life and a half a year gets wasted every time they rematch. It’s fine if it’s for a title or title shot or something significant, not for stuff like this.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree. Letting Oliveira move up the ladder for this while Lentz doesn’t even get a chance to have a fair fight with the guy is lame. This was a significant lightweight matchup.
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I don’t think Charles should be fighting Bendo or Jim Miller for this, but I think a lateral or slight upward move is fine. He showed he can compete at that level. Like I said, I’d be happy with Mark Bochek who ain’t no world beater.
I don’t think Lentz should be held back much either for this “loss”.
It just doesn’t do anything for either guy to fight again.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
DQ
but it wasn’t stopped, that’s the point. that’s a mistake made by the ref.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
And mine is that while a DQ loss for Oliveira is needed here, even though thats what he would have gotten had the ref caught it(and Nick couldn’t continue) A NC would be fair to everyone involved.
I don’t see why not. I’m having a hard time talking about whats fair for Oliveira when Lentz is the victim. The guy who threw an illegal shot doesn’t get any sympathy, especially not more than the guy who got shafted by his mistake.
Should Oliveira get a worse-than-normal punishment just because the ref was a dumbshit?
This is the one key question in this entire debate.
I think the key question is even though the ref messed up, why the illegality of the knee is being completely ignored.
The illegality is not being ignored at ALL.
It’s being assumed actually. I haven’t seen one person here say that the knee was not illegal.
it isn’t worse than normal. A fight turning into a NC is a perfectly fair result for someone who lands an illegal strike.
Anthony Johnson vs. Josh Koscheck
Paul Daley vs. Josh Koscheck
Michael Bisping vs. Jorge Rivera
Three instances I can think of off the top of my head where an illegal knee happened and the fight continued because the ref did his job properly.
That doesn’t really prove anything. NC, point deduction, DQ, warning are all FAIR results for an illegal knee. Letting the fight go until the guy that got hit is choked out is not a fair result.
No, it's not fair, but the ref wanted them to continue fighting and Oliveira obliged him
By turning this result into a NC we are punishing Oliveira for obeying the referee’s commands at all times.
No it should not, but it should fit what actually happened in the cage and not what a few fans of the offender want to believe should happen.
Oh so now you want to turn this into a matter of fandom?
What actually happened in the cage is that the referee didn’t rule the knee to be an illegal knee.
It’d be like in a hockey game where a player did something blatantly illegal to incapacitate an opposing player, the ref didn’t call it and then they were able to get a breakaway and scored. They’re not going to overturn the goal because the ref didn’t call the penalty.
because the ref didn't do his job
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
disagree wholeheartedly
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
You think a win you didn’t earn is more fair than a loss you didn’t earn? Or a NC you definately earned? Really?
not so sure he didn't earn it...
but that’s besides the point, by changing the results to a NC, they’re making a claim that Charles cheated, by keeping the W they don’t make such claim, they stay indifferent.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
no they aren’t, making it a DQ they say he cheated. Making it a NC means something went wrong.
And something certainly went wrong in this fight.
whenever you change something
you are making a statement with that, by taking the W away from Charles they would be certainly penalizing him.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
You are arguing against the entire Replay rule here, which i think is silly. The replay rule exists to correct mistake, sometimes people get hurt by the refs mistakes (like if you get kneed in the head while you are grounded and then get choked out).
is the replay rule not during the event?
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
apparently not. If it was just that, the commisson and joe rogan after the fight would have said, the ref fucked up, that sucks, but there’s nothing we can do.
They said they are reviewing it, and they are, so there must be some rules to that effect.
which is why I feel this is sort of a which hunt
but I also want to say that 90% of what Joe says is BS shenenagans (though I understand that the commission is backing him up here hehe, I just had to throw that elbow at Joe :p)
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
A witch hunt? Seriously?? I can understand thinking that the mistake was made, no backsies, but to call this a witchhunt is completely wrong.
listen
if bad ref calls that affect the end of a fight would always be analyzed afterwards than I can see how it isn’t a which hunt…
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
It’s not a witch hunt. It was a blatantly illegal strike that was missed. Everyone (but the ref) saw it and knew it. The commission said immediately that they would review it.
Replay should exist for situations like this. Fairness is not an argument, getting it right should be all that matters. you can’t make an argument based on fairness when someone get choked out while they were rocked by a blatantly illegal strike. Especially because the guy already got his win bonus and fight of the night, so even if they change it, i doubt the ufc’s going to be asking for a refund.
getting it right should be all that matters.
that sounds like the refs job to me :p
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
No, it’s not. If there are rules in place to fix bad calls, it’s not only the refs job. It’s the commission’s job to right a wrong.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
then why don't they always?
how many bad ref calls do we watch on a monthly basis? I mean, it’s an enormous amount…
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
Bad calls like this? People can’t even come up with examples, that’s how rare this is.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
bad calls that affects the result of a fight
why does it have to be exactly like this?
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
Because the stuff you’re talking about is borderline. Tell me the last time that a blatantly illegal strike that was missed by the ref led to the finish of a UFC fight?
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
why does it only have to be on illegal strikes?
I’m talking about bad ref calls that have affected the outcome of a fight…
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
Because we’re talking in the context of what an athletic commission can do to right wrong’s. If they can overturn a fight based on an illegal strike…then that’s the topic at hand.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
are you saying that the ACs
wouldn’t be righting a wrong in every bad ref call that affects the outcome of a fight? it can only be due to an illegal strike? I disagree.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
First off, I’m not even sure what your “bad call” thing is referring to. Can you give us an example? Second, I’m saying if the commission has the power to step in and say the ref was wrong, they have a duty to do so. If that means a fight result gets overturned in the name of getting stuff right, that’s the prudent thing to do and a good call.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
bad calls: throwing an illegal strike and not stopping the fight or giving a penalty to the fighter who threw the legal strike = bad call, ending a fight too early=bad call,
ending a fight too late=bad call.
the second part I understand, and I know where you’re coming from, I just disagree, but you don’t appear to accept other people’s POV.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
Tom, you know me better than that by now. I’m perfectly willing to accept POV’s. I don’t get mad or out of hand…ever. If you know where I’m coming from and disagree, cool. I’ll stop at that.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
my bad brother
it’s just that I’ve been repeating myself for about 10 comments now, I think it may just be my English
and you’re right, you have always been one of the most down to earth and cool out of everyone around here, I’m the one that loses my shit every now and then, so this is on me ok :p
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
It's all good man
It’s not your English, don’t worry. I was just trying to hard to get a point across. Till the next time, sir. : )
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
I do have a thick head :p
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
it’s also the ref’s bosses job, and look at the gif below, there is no way on earth the ref got this right.
exactly my point...
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
No it’s not. You’re saying the commission shouldn’t overturn this. That’s what he’s saying.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
and
that the problem is the ref, which is my point… I have said that quite a few times brother :p
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
You’re missing the point. It’s not a witchhunt for the commission to overturn this fight, no matter who’s to blame. You keep saying it’s the ref’s fault, but then you say there’s no reason to overturn it and it’s not fair. That makes no sense.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
I think you guys are missing my point lol
by overturning the result your shifting blame away from the ref and placing it on Charles, that has been my point throughout this conversation, and I have repeated that quite a few times, disagree if you must, but my point has stayed the same throughout.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
Who cares about blame? It’s about what’s right. I think we should agree to disagree, because it seems like you’re conveniently ignoring the bigger picture.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
I have already agreed to disagree
but why on earth should I have the same opinion as you? if I disagree I am ignoring the bigger picture? ok then…
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
You ARE ignoring the bigger picture. You refuse to acknowledge it.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
no
we just disagree, I do not buy your view, come on man, this is the sort of stuff people call us elitists for lol, we do not share the same view…
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
That’s fine. But I’m agreeing with your point about the refs. You won’t even talk about the idea that blame and reputation are way less important than actually getting the call right.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
If the commission rules say it IS an option – how can you argue that it’s not an option?
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
don't get me wrong
if they change the result and they find it as NC, I’ll be cool with it, I just don’t think they should :p
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
@Tim Burke
You won’t even talk about the idea that blame and reputation are way less important than actually getting the call right.
yes, because in my view, changing one fight is not going to fix the problem, but if the AC keeps the blame and tries to discipline the refs instead, than these types of bad calls can decrease in the future. I’m just looking at the bigger picture and not at this one instance alone.
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
Time, I feel that you are the one ignoring the bigger picture here.
We shouldn’t be punishing fighters for shitty calls the refs make. He was instructed to take the fight to its conclusion, so he did.
Oliveira threw the knee. He deserves to be punished for throwing an illegal blow, whether it’s in the fight or afterward. Charles Oliveira is not an innocent party here.
Still a Beer Monster.
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Then deduct a point.
Lentz continued fighting after the illegal blow.
Wow, now it all makes sense, I didn't know that before.
The fact that Lentz wasn’t given the option to stop was not Oliveira’s fault. Making his punishment harsher as a result of something out of Oliveira’s control isn’t fair to him.
It's not punishment
A No Contest is essentially ruling the fight a wash. The athletic commission would be essentially admitting they screwed up and rather than have the fight sit as a win or a loss on either fighters record, it sits as a No Contest, or functions as if the fight never happened.
That is easily the most fair resolution because while you harp on and on about what isn’t fair to Oliveira, you completely ignore what’s fair to Lentz.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
by Worldisart on Jun 27, 2011 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
but in my view it shift blame
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
no
my point is that the ref is at fault and they’re the ones that should be discipline so these types of stuff doesn’t continue to happen. sheesh… try to read people…
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
And if they don’t you are cool with that, thats the worrisome part. I wonder how you would feel if you hated the fighter that it happened to.
this has nothing to do with me being a fan or not of any fighter
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
MRR1 is trying to turn this into a partisan "fanboy" thing.
Instead of arguing the merits which he doesn’t seem to be very good at.
seriously
that’s the type of stuff that really pisses me off, like we can’t have an argument unless it’s because we’re fanboys or something…
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
But the thing about that is you guys were the first one to even say that. I merely wondered if you would be defending say Lentz if he kneed Oliveira.
but that was the implication you gave
that I’m having this point of view because it’s not a fighter that I hate…
not always will those who dumps on you be your enemies
and not always will those who take you out of shit be your friends
Wait a minute how am I not arguing merits?? And why attack me, thats a sure sign of no real argument. I say the ref got it wrong, and Olivera shouldn’t benefit from his illegal knee or a refs incompetence.
For me
it’s because if we NC a fight everytime a ref fucks up we’d have a ton of NC’s in this sport.
Roy Nelson vs AA = NC
Story vs Brenneman = NC
Every Chad Griggs fight = NC
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Even if you buy that, we have missed punches to the back of the head, missed groin strikes, etc. that happen on the regular.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes we have
Every fucking Griggs fight.
When Gonzaga roshamboed Tuchscherer.
This list could go on and on.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure they are
the completely change the outcomes of fights.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
The first two are judgement calls and completely different. Griggs…yeah.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
I was agreeing with Batman about the Griggs thing. No argument here.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Reffing
HAS to get better. Absolutely. And I’m not gonna trip if this gets a NC. I just think changing fights to NC’s doesn’t actually do anything to address the problem and it’s largely irrelevant.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure it is
Dana can do whatever the fuck he wants with his “loss”. He can have him fight Jim Miller next if he so chooses.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Whos arguing that Griggs was a fair call? now you are trying to link people you are arguing with to past bad calls?
The point is
if you want to do retroactive No Contest rulings, there are much more clear cut cases to crusade for.
That's crazy talk
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude, read.
it’s because if we NC a fight everytime a ref fucks up we’d have a ton of NC’s in this sport.
That’s my issue with changing this fight to an NC specifically.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know thats your point and I maintain it is wrong and ever shall be. They change outcomes on a case by case basis. Not because one unjust outcome got changed to just one.
That's fixing the symptom
and not the disease.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Shall we call this a...
??
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You can call it a chess board if you want. I’ll just call it a stalemate.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Matt is going to be PISSED when he sees you talking smack like that.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jun 27, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure
one is pointless and arbitrary.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's Nevada's rule
Commission will not change a decision rendered at the end of any contest or exhibition unless:
1. The Commission determines that there was collusion affecting the result of the contest or exhibition;
2. The compilation of the scorecards of the judges discloses an error which shows that the decision was given to the wrong unarmed combatant; or
3. As the result of an error in interpreting a provision of this chapter, the referee has rendered an incorrect decision.
If Pen has something similar this won’t be overturned.
http://unintelligentdefense.blogspot.com
I think Olivera got off good here
A NC(if it holds up and probably will) is much better than him getting DQ’d. That was probably what would have happened if the fight was stopped.
I'd like to propose an official BE motion:
I hereby declare that using “Aloe Vera” to refer to UFC lightweight Charles Oliveira is the sign of a lazy mind and should be ceased immediately. Use of “Aloe Vera” will be punishable by a Tyrion slap, or other, similarly mocking gif. If you’d like to abbreviate his name in a nickname form, I submit MostDiabolicalHater’s idea: C"DB"O for your approval.
Any in favor?
Any opposed?
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 2:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm asking...
not telling.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I approve! I hate both “Aloe vera” and “Paul Harris”. It’s simply not funny, at all.. and besides, it’s not THAT hard to spell their names. Look: Oliveira, Palhares. Hell, I’m not going to complain even if you get a letter wrong or something. I don’t think MDH’s abbreviation is going to catch on though, too complicated.
I also don’t think our complaining is going to change anything. So.. I suspect it will continue to be a minor annoyance.
by Horselover Fat on Jun 27, 2011 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
can't find one...
but I was able to watch the whole fight after by doing a google search.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 27, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
One of those punches after the knee may have been on the ear, but a bunch landed right on the back of the head. I still can’t believe the ref didn’t stop that there. No excuse on his part.
by Jamie Penick on Jun 27, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
The ref
confused him for Chad Griggs
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Lentz has 3 points on the ground-
His right foot & knee, and left foot. What qualifies as a downed opponent again? Is it 3 points?
Because I actually think that kind of knee should be completely legal. I only think knees/ kicks to the head should only be illegal if a guy is flat on his back or flat on his belly.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jun 27, 2011 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought a downed opponent is simply if they have any hand or knee touching the mat.
And yes, it should totally be legal.
It's anything touching the mat that isn't your foot
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 28, 2011 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
That's crazy.
The Unified Rules need a serious face lift.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jun 28, 2011 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I got no problem with this strike.
Luke Thomas: If Pro Wrestling had a dick, you'd be the balls!
Kid Nate: ...
How bad is Chip Snider?
How can the ref miss that? Either he is incredibly incompetent at his job or he doesn’t understand the rules regarding knees to a downed opponent. I can’t believe someone could miss something so blatantly obvious.
Worse than Jon Schorle.
And that’s quite a feat.
Mike Matheny’s standups during story Brenneman were really bad too.
Mini Rosenthal did a good job though.
yeah, that dude with all the crazy tattoos is pretty good.
I think he refs Jersey fights too.
Mike Matheny’s standups during story Brenneman were really bad too
They were atrocious. Could have changed the outcome of the fight.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
They could have I guess..
I don’t think Story would have pulled off any of those subs though. I do agree that the standups were horrible though.
I don’t think Story would have pulled off any of those subs though
Me either, but because of the idiot ref we’ll never know. It’s a lot like the Olivira fight, imo. I don’t think the ref fuck up changed the ultimate outcome of the fight, but we’ll never really know.
1. Anderson Silva is waiting for you to punch him.
2. That guy is Anderson Silva.
3. Don't fucking punch that guy.
by Chris Barton on Jun 27, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
That worst part about that asshole was that he kept talking to the fighters all the freaking time. Telling them to improve, work, come on guys, thats more like it, keep working, etc etc etc. It was especially annoying during the Griffin – Gamburyan fight. He just talked WAY too much, when in reality there was no need for it, like he was their coach or something. It was like every few seconds he would make some stupid comment. Really awful, extremely annoying, and very inappropriate. Let them fight! Stop your yapping!
/end rant
by Horselover Fat on Jun 27, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
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