Werdum Blames Boring Fight on Overeem, Claims Injury to Knee
by Kevin Haggerty on Jun 22, 2011 10:53 AM EDT
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via www.espn.co.uk courtesy Getty Images
On Saturday night, Strikeforce's main event was an anti-climactic display of a striker vs. a grappler; neither willing to really fight the other's game.
Afterwards, Overeem said that he was disappointed with his own effort, but also voiced his displeasure with his opponent, stating: "He should be embarrassed."
Overeem wasn't an island, regarding his point of view. He voiced what a lot of fans and critics felt as they watched the fight.
This morning, ESPN UK ran a story where Fabricio Werdum responded to Overeem and his other critics:
"I should have had more faith in my stand-up, listened to [coach] Rafael Cordeiro. Strategically he (Overeem) was better. Perhaps, if I hadn't pulled the guard so many times, I would have won.
He didn't want to go to the ground with me at all but it is an MMA fight, you have to do the ground game as well. I think it is funny that [opponents] call me to go at them and I do, but when I call them to the mat, nobody does."If you look well, you'll see that my knee got out of place in the beginning of the second round," Werdum told R7.com "It hurt so much, it was difficult to get up and it took a little of my focus. I will have an MRI scan and see whether it is serious and when I will be able to train.
Let me say that I'm not one of those guys/fans who thinks the ground game "isn't fighting". I love jiu jitsu. I think it's a beautiful art-form. When done well and executed properly, it is a thing to behold. When a top level BJJ practitioner takes a guy he should have no chance against in a fight, and brings him down to his world and submits him, I love it.
With that out of the way, Werdum is totally ludicrous in what he is saying. He's totally right in that it was an MMA match, and not just a striking exchange. The problem is that you can flip that argument on its head.
In MMA, you can no longer be one dimensional. Fighters with only one predominant skill set have become dinosaurs, and will be extinct soon.
There's nothing at all wrong with Werdum wanting the fight to go the ground. That's where his strength is. Of course that's what he prefers.
Werdum's premise is misguided, in that he equates fighters who will not come down into his guard as being comparable to fighters who won't get up and exchange.
The sport of mixed martial arts starts on the feet. When there is a lack of activity, that is the position that is resumed. The impetus is not placed on the standup fighter to make a jiu jitsu fighter get up. It is the opposite that is true. If Werdum has a problem with the rules, and the way the sport is set up, then he has bigger fish to fry.
If he wants to blame a knee injury on his lack of performance, that's fine. Say you hurt your knee, and you weren't able to fight up to your maximum capacity. To call out Overeem for not willfully jumping into a position where Werdum is dominant is ill-conceived at best.
If Werdum wants the fight to go the ground, it's up to him to make sure that happens. It's on him to use takedowns to get his opponents where he wants them, and to keep them there when he gets them there.
Complaining about a guy coming down into the guard, would be like Randy Couture complaining about an opponent not backing up against the fence so that he could employ his dirty boxing against him.
Every fighter has strengths and weaknesses, and it is up to that fighter to find a way to implement those strengths. The opponent has no obligation to do him any favors.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Werdum says....
He didn’t want to go to the ground with me at all but it is an MMA fight, you have to do the ground game as well.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
by RolloTomasi on Jun 22, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Hear that?
You have to.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
by RolloTomasi on Jun 22, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
“Overeem, we’ve been exchanging some strikes, now come down here and let me try to submit you, it’s only fair! This is mma!”
It's just a world, it's just a life.
by DirtyML on Jun 22, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
This is one of the.....
most pathetic actions in MMA, almost embarrassing to be a fan and seeing this replayed.
If you want the fight on the ground then it is up to you to take it there
Werdum lost all the hype and popularity he had built with his last couple wins with this pitiful performance
This is a joke
right? A miss translation or something?
To the best of my knowledge, it is neither.
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by Kevin Haggerty on Jun 22, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Werdum
I used to kinda like you.
You seemed like a cool dude.
You beat Fedor……so there’s that.
But then you acted like a desperate hooker.
Now I hate you.
No big deal, I’m nothing special.
But I still hate you.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
by RolloTomasi on Jun 22, 2011 12:55 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Hate is a strong word.
I loath him.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
Me too
I won’t tell him to f’ck off again…because I guess it is an outlawed act for MMA fans to say that to fighters…but I dislike him immensely.
Georges St-Pierre vs. Anderson Silva
by Chris Groves on Jun 23, 2011 3:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you mean loathe.
Or perhaps you mean you are loath to watch him.
But, Loathe means “to feel hatred, intense dislike, disgust for” so it’s pretty much equal to Hate.
As for me, I never really liked him but could watch him...
And I don’t loathe him but am pretty unimpressed. Almost as unimpressed as GSP is.
It is very likely that Werdum hurt his knee when Overeem threw him to the ground in the second round. If you watch it, Werdum’s foot was planted when he was thrown down sideways. This puts a tremendous amount of stress on the MCL and ACL and also can cause fractures to the lower leg (usually the fibula) and tears to the medial meniscus.
It is possible that Werdum escaped without injury but the way he fell was pretty awkward.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
by crizzy on Jun 22, 2011 1:22 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
That’s for sure when it happened. Werdum grabs his knee immediately after and it’s the first time he takes forever getting back to the feet. He limps immediately after.
by gzl5000 on Jun 22, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
Yes, I think you are right.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
Yup, but it’s not the kind of thing we can expect judges to pick up in realtime.
by paythefighters on Jun 23, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
30-27 REEM
Seems like they got it right.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
The take home point from this article:
It was Werdum’s job as a fighter to get the fight to the ground if he wanted to fight there. Period.
He also gave Reem several knockdowns on the scorecards that most likely were not knockdowns at all. Werdum really squandered a great opportunity here, given a better strategy, he may have won the fight.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
Misleading headline
That story has a ridiculously misleading headline. None of the quotes by Werdum even mention how boring the fight was or who’s ‘fault’ it was. Hack journalism, IMO.
by mnwildfan79 on Jun 22, 2011 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It's not journalism
It’s a fanpost on a blog. Learn to differentiate before you start holding people who are making no claims to being a journalist up to a standard that they are not claiming to meet.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
by Worldisart on Jun 22, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
True
It’s still hack fanposting though.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
What an idiotic thing to nitpick about
I thought about making the headline: “Lots of fans found Werdum’s fight against Overeem to be a boring one. Werdum feels that this was not his fault, but that the blame should be placed on Overeem. Werdum doesn’t personally say that he thought the fight was boring. That was clearly not the point or intent of the article, but I wanted to point that out here, so that no one feels misled.” I just ran out of characters. Sorry. Most of BE’s readers are intelligent enough to not have to be spoon-fed the entire article in the headline. Did you really think I thought that Werdum saying it was a boring fight would be a ratings draw? That makes no sense. If you were misled by the headline, you’re not very smart.
Read my articles at: http://www.cagesideseats.com
Check out my other website: http://mmabuffet.blogspot.com
Follow me at: twitter.com/mmabuffet
by Kevin Haggerty on Jun 23, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Cut the author some slack...
Werdum’s responding to numerous criticisms that the fight was boring, so “boring fight” is implied.
And – by complaining that his opponent refused to play the ground game, he is placing part of the blame for the boringness (i.e. lack of engagement) on Overeem.
It’s not a terribly unfair conclusion to draw, and to use in the headline.
Great piece Kevin. What a piece of work Werdum is, if talking the talk won fights he’d be P4P best in the sport. I’ll be honest and say i wouldn’t mind seeing him retire from MMA after that farce Saturday night. Pride style yellow cards would have been a godsend, the man spent more time begging Overeem to give up his advantages than he did looking to win the fight. Disgrace.
Thanks sheiky. Glad you were able to make it past the misleading headline and actually read the article. :)
Read my articles at: http://www.cagesideseats.com
Check out my other website: http://mmabuffet.blogspot.com
Follow me at: twitter.com/mmabuffet
by Kevin Haggerty on Jun 22, 2011 2:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
There are still a lot of good fights out there for Werdum, so long as the powers that be make it clear that another performance like this is grounds for termination.
by MS_Dos_Santos on Jun 22, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
like Fedor avenging his loss, Antonio Silva avenging his loss…plenty of people I want to see defeat Werdum in rematches, Overeem was just the beginning.
Georges St-Pierre vs. Anderson Silva
by Chris Groves on Jun 23, 2011 3:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Yellow card
I hope we NEVER ever see them in the sport again. They are so horrendously wrong it’s not even funny.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
Would not be surprised at all
if Werdum got canned. No clue what his contract is, obviously, but that is some bush league shit.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jun 22, 2011 2:36 PM EDT reply actions
LOVE this idea
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you, lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 23, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
For all the complaints about the way Werdum chose to fight....
….and they do have merit, let us not forget that wading into the guard of a dangerous BJJ player and beating them down has made other men legends.
Fedor was given huge amounts of credit for playing in Big Nog’s guard for almost the entirety of their fights, and that went a long way to establishing him as the greatest of all time.
Based on the ease with which Overeem threw Werdum around, he probably could have played a far more offensive top position then he did.
So yeah, Werdum deserves the criticism, but at the same time, if you want to be the greatest heavyweight in the world, it is on you to go down into the guard of the best grappler, neutralize it and still beat the crap out of him.
Overeem had a pretty incredible chance to cement his status as the number one heavyweight and he let it pass him by in order to win safely.
if you want to be the greatest heavyweight in the world, it is on you to go down into the guard of the best grappler, neutralize it and still beat the crap out of him.
This is just foolish. More balls than brains. It makes you a hero and a legend until it fails miserable and then you’re just a fool.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
Wow, is that what Fedor is now?
A fool?
The responses to my post are ridiculous. Everyone is full of criticism for fighter who plays it safe and sticks to what they are good at without taking risks.
GSP is KILLED for doing it!!
Jon Fitch? Oh he is so boring, doing his safe ground and pound instead of balls out going for the finish.
Anderson Silva got the same treatment for his fight against Maia.
Yet Overeem gets love for playing it ridiculously safe? Name one other fight where a fighter has stauchly refused to go to the ground with his opponent the way Overeem did with Werdum.
The double standard here is just absurd. Werdum taps out Fedor and all of a sudden only a fool goes into his guard?
You make a good point. Reem did play it safe but he didnt run away from fighting like Werdum. I will give Reem a pass because he has been wicked exciting in most of his recent fights. You can’t be exciting all the time and Werdum made it impossible to be.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
Oh, for fuck’s sake! This is just unbearably stupid. Werdum ran away from fighting? Seriously? Yeah, he pulled guard repeatedly, and he even flopped, but he was the only one involved in that fight who was willing to play in his opponent’s comfort zone.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
Reem chilled out in Werdum's gaurd more than a bit
Georges St-Pierre vs. Anderson Silva
by Chris Groves on Jun 23, 2011 3:54 AM EDT up reply actions
ROFL… Werdum had no choice but “play” in Reem’s comfort zone… The fight starts standing, and Werdum has the onus to get it to the ground. What part of that do people not get? Werdum absolutely ran away from fighting. I will spare returning your insult, since your response makes my point for me.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
Werdum didn’t run away any more than Machida does. He gave Overeem plenty of opportunity to attack on the feet, and was always right there to attack on the ground if his opponent wanted to (you don’t have that option with Machida).
Say what you will about the flopping, but the few exciting parts of the fight were most often initiated by Werdum.
Overeem unquestionably deserves his share of the blame for this fight being so bad, just like Silva does against Leites or the second half of the Maia fight.
by paythefighters on Jun 23, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
This is true. Werdum certainly does not deserve all of the blame. Overeem could have done much more to make this an exciting fight.
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Check out my other website: http://mmabuffet.blogspot.com
Follow me at: twitter.com/mmabuffet
by Kevin Haggerty on Jun 23, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Disagree about Machida, but
the rest of this is spot on – both guys have to share the blame in this one…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 23, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, I allocate about 2/3 and 1/3. Overeem really didn't try very hard
There were opportunities to just pound Werdum on the ground; there were opportunities to kick his legs; he could have gone “extra hard all out” on a combo.
I gave no love to Overeem
But if you think he’s ridiculed about this fight now, just imagine if he had have dived head first into Werdum’s guard and been submitted?
It’s easy to sit in the armchair and say a fighter has to play to his opponents strengths to prove his greatness, but reality is, the only thing a fighter has to do to prove his greatness is win, and keep on winning.
Say what you want about the criticism a fighter like GSP gets, is anyone going to deny he’s one of the greatest fighters ever to step in the cage? And he didn’t get there by foolishly playing into his opponents strengths.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
Yeah, but GSP is always attacking. He wasn’t scared of BJ’s guard, he wasn’t scared of Shields’ guard, didn’t care that trying to choke Fitch could lead to being on the bottom (it did, and that’s where Fitch is most dangerous), and did half the fight on the feet against Alves. The only reason the Shields fight didn’t stay on the ground for longer than a few seconds at a time is that Shields didn’t want the fight there and was always trying to get up, so GSP obliged.
This is what I want to see from fighters. Stop refusing to engage. Overeem didn’t face any big threats when he finally wound up in Werdum’s guard, because he didn’t do anything stupid like Fedor did.
by paythefighters on Jun 23, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
GSP is a better fighter than Alistair Overeem
He has more tools and more pathes to victory than Overeem.
All fighters are not created equal and using GSP as the standard to which all fighters should be held is kind of ridiculous given that he is arguably the best fighter in the world right now.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
I dunno, GSP’s tools keep him off his back and get his opponents to the ground. That is already done for Overeem when Werdum flops.
I think Overeem is just as well equipped to rain down punches from above, and even his top control looked good in the third.
by paythefighters on Jun 23, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I guess it is ridiculous....
….to hold a guy who wants to be called the best heavyweight on the planet to the standards of the best welterweight on the planet.
Sorry, there is no real need to be sarcastic here…..so I’ll just say
Any champion (or potential champion) should be held to the standard that other champions have set. That is the only logical standard to hold them too, until they surpass that and force you to hold them to historical standards.
None of GSP’s opponents are even close to Werdum in BJJ.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
Exactly
When is the last time BJ submitted someone in his guard in MMA? Or Shields?
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 23, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Other than Fedor, who could have escaped from the triangle if he chose to, Werdum hasn’t beaten anyone of note from his back (last time was Roman-Zentsov in 2005). Virtually all his BJJ tourney wins have come from points, too.
I gave you a Fitch example, too. The only way Fitch could win is through top control/sub, and GSP went for a finish that if failed would result with him on the bottom.
You could also say that Overeem’s BJJ is better than GSP’s, too.
by paythefighters on Jun 23, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Other than Fedor, who could have escaped from the triangle if he chose to,
Do you seriously believe this?
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 24, 2011 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Yet Overeem gets love for playing it ridiculously safe? Name one other fight where a fighter has stauchly refused to go to the ground with his opponent the way Overeem did with Werdum.
Overeem got lots of grief for his performance too, and as for the second part, how about GSP/Shields for a recent one, or the always popular Anderson/Leites
The double standard here is just absurd. Werdum taps out Fedor and all of a sudden only a fool goes into his guard?
Yes, that is pretty much it…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 23, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Anderson Leites isn’t exactly a shining example of Silva’s career. He could have and should have attacked Leites. Leites never beat anyone from his back before that fight, AFAICS.
You didn’t watch GSP/Shields very well. GSP went to the ground several times. It was Shields that wanted to get back up to his feet and he did.
by paythefighters on Jun 23, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
GSP did at times, it is true, although Shields isn’t exactly Aoki-esque off his back…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 24, 2011 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Name one other fight where a fighter has stauchly refused to go to the ground with his opponent the way Overeem did with Werdum.
Gil/Aoki
The way I remember it...
…Gil played in his guard and beat him down.
In fact, he hit him with 80 strikes on the ground, well over half of his landed strikes for the entire fight.
As it was a 5 round fight, he had more time than Overeem did, but that was a beatdown and it shot Melendez right to the top of the charts where he has stayed ever since.
That fight actually helps prove my point.
Another one is ...
Maia and Silva
"We will be perfect in every aspect of the game. You drop a pass, you run a mile. You miss a blocking assignment, you run a mile. You fumble the football and I will break my foot off in your John Brown hind parts...and then you will run a mile. Perfection. Let's get to work."
Coach Boone
Remember The Titans [2000]
Yet Overeem gets love for playing it ridiculously safe? Name one other fight where a fighter has stauchly refused to go to the ground with his opponent the way Overeem did with Werdum.
Kharitonov. Werdum pulled the same begging in their fight. I do agree with you though, in that Reem gave Werdum way rtoo much respect on the ground. Reem’s not a white belt- and after 2 minutes in the 2nd, when it was clear that Werdum was gassed, it would have been nice to see Reem get aggressive but smart and go for damage on the ground. Avoiding the ground while Werdum was fresh and dry but taking a calculated risk once he was tired would have been a perfectly acceptable strategy. But so is avoiding the one area where Werdum could win. I think that the difference in the double standard in the way that both men approached the fight is that Reem did what he had to do to win- it seemed like Werdum did what he had to do to lose. Reem was winning the fight, albeit winning ugly, but winning nonetheless; therefore it was on Werdum to make an adjustment and he never did.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you, lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 23, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
No.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
by RolloTomasi on Jun 22, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Whatever this means....
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t see Cain Velasquez shying away from fighting in Werdum’s guard.
And I’m pretty sure none of you jokers would be calling him a fool for doing it.
I guarantee Cain would avoid Werdum’s guard. Absofrigginlutely he would.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
I doubt it
Very few fighters are afraid of attacking the guard of another man.
It doesn’t mean Cain would necessarily dive into top control, but he would attack.
by paythefighters on Jun 23, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
link?
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
"Do you, lie awake alone at night, admiring my gash?"
-Lord Varys
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 23, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, I disagree completely.
It sounds like you are saying no heavyweights should go to the ground with Werdum under any circumstances.
Even the number one heavyweight in the world? I mean, I think Jiu Jitsu is great and all that, but come on guys, you all are giving Werdum’s ground game way too much love here.
And if that is the case (that no heavyweight should ever go to the ground with Werdum) then it makes no sense that Overeem’s standing in the HW division suffered from this fight. It should have skyrocketed because of how smart he fought and how easily he avoided the ground!
You’re advocating that fighters need to prove they’re good fighters by taking the least likely path to victory. I’m not saying Cain couldn’t beat him on the ground, and if he should rock him in the standup and get a knockdown I fully expect him to follow Werdum down and look for the TKO finish.
That being said, should Werdum take the approach of flopping to his back, I don’t expect Cain, or any other fighter with a decent fight IQ to just oblige Werdum and go down into his guard. It’s a no win proposition in so far as he’s either going be subbed or he’s going to be forced to grind out an ugly decision inside a high level BJJ players guard.
I don’t think Overeem’s standing goes up or down after this fight, at least not to most logical fans of the sport. He’s certainly not the unstoppable wrecking machine a lot of his more zealous fans claimed he was, but again, reasonable MMA fans figured that was probably the case anyway. At the end of the day, despite the ugly nature of the fight, it’s still a solid win for Overeem and certainly proves his ability to hang in the cage with top level talent in the division. Had he obliged Werdum and gone into his guard despite the fact Werdum did nothing to get the fight there, and gone on to lose by submission, Overeem would have looked a complete fool.
Instead, he won the fight, he moves on in the tournament and he will have further oppurtunities to try and prove he’s the best HW in the world.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
by Worldisart on Jun 22, 2011 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This.
@Luke – of course we’d expect to see Cain do some GnP if he took Werdum down with a big power double or a TD into side control or something fairly solid. But to dive into Werdum’s guard after a Werdum “Thai Prayer” move? Nah.
Cain would not take Werdum down with a power double. It is well established how to beat Werdum. Keep him standing.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
Yeah, I agree... that was an "if". I agree Cain probably wouldn't go for takedowns.
In the event that it went to the ground by Cain’s choosing, and he was in a good position, he would probably do some GnP. This was in response to:
“It sounds like you are saying no heavyweights should go to the ground with Werdum under any circumstances.”
Evidently, there are circumstances where a smart fighter would play on the ground with Werdum.
Keep him standing...
Or stand there and wait while he flops to the ground, and win by unglamorous decision.
Exacty
Joe Rogan even praised Brock Lesnar during his second fight with Mir for avoiding the ground when Mir would clearly have had guard. He’ll play half guard, but he knew enough to avoid Frank’s full guard at all costs.
Being in the guard of a great jiu-jitsu fighter is truly terrifying, it feels like everything you do is a mistake and will somehow lead to your destruction.
Well put
Cain might do it, but only under his terms, and likely later, after they were sweaty, and probably towards the end of a given round, at least until he knew first hand what he was dealing with.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 23, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Attacking guard is not the least likely path to victory
It is often the greatest chance to do damage.
Fedor didn’t lose because he went into Werdum’s guard, he lost because he had no respect for the danger of the impending triangle. He even had a chance to get out, but chose to try landing another punch.
by paythefighters on Jun 23, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
It's circumstantial
In the case of a fight like Werdum\Overeem, on paper it is absolutely one of the least likely pathes to victory for Overeem.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
Well, in the end, Overeem’s top control is what made me give him the otherwise equal third round, which was critical because Werdum clearly outstruck Overeem in the first (there was no “quality of strikes” advantage for the Reem in that round). If he did the same in the first before Werdum got the striking lead, then it would be a 30-27 in my eyes.
On paper, Silva should have let Marquardt stand up. Instead, we saw this:
It was the smarter thing, too, because Marquardt had a chance for a takedown while standing, as did Werdum against Overeem. This is what Silva should have done against Maia and Leites.
by paythefighters on Jun 23, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Marquardt had already been rocked, and even if not, he is not even in the same conversation as Maia or even Leites in his BJJ skill…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 23, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude.............Marquardt's guard is nothing special.
Sonnen dominated Marquardts guard……..and Sonnen gets tapped more then a Hip Hop hooker.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
by RolloTomasi on Jun 23, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
and Sonnen gets tapped more then a Hip Hop hooker.
Really hate when I have to explain why I just lol’d while I am “working”.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 23, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Sonnen admitted himself that he almost lost consciousness to Marquardt’s choke. Sonnen beat Dan Miller, Paulo Filho, Credeur, and Prangley, so he’s not going to get submitted every time.
You missed the main point of that GIF, though: Silva attacked without sitting in his guard.
by paythefighters on Jun 23, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Paulo Fihlo also beat him.
You missed the main point of that GIF, though: Silva attacked without sitting in his guard.
you missed the point where Sonnens guard is dogshit compared to Werdums.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
Exactly
And he didn’t get to be champion by taking foolish chances. Guys like Werdum he will try to stay standing with, guys like JDS or Overeem he will likely try to wear out on the ground. Could he beat them in their world? Maybe, who knows, but why take such a high risk chance, just to prove a point.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 23, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Cain wanted nothing to do with Nogs guard....
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
by RolloTomasi on Jun 22, 2011 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Dude,
He stayed out of Nog’s guard. Why wouldn’t he stay out of Werdum’s?
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by Neil Manich on Jun 22, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't tell if you guys are serious.
That fight wasn’t exactly long and I don’t remember Nog ever going to the ground on his own accord….
by Luke Nelson on Jun 23, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
He never went to the ground because Cain is an All American wrestler.
He couldn’t.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
"I'm going to beat him with my Jiu Jitsu." --Big Nog about Cain Velasquez.
Give up dude. Noone is buying what you’re selling.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
Actually you are the one who needs to give it up.
Or at least take a step back and look at what is being said.
The only thing that can be taken from Cain and Big Nog is that fights start standing and Cain can end them quickly and brutally. That is all that happened. Cain didn’t avoid Nog’s guard at all. Maybe he would have had he been presented with it, but he wasn’t, so to phrase it in the way that you and Neil is very presumptuous. And to use that pre-fight quote from Nog, a quote that you could ascribe to every jiu jitsu fighter ever before a MMA fight just adds to the lols.
Finally, I think this whole “Cain would go into Werdum’s guard” was a bit of a misunderstanding, which I tried to clear up already. What I meant by my comment was that he would engage Werdum on the ground, not that he would literally dive into his guard if Werdum butt flopped and invited him in.
The reason I made the comment in the first place was because Overeem was extremely tentative when inside Werdum’s guard and I was stating that the heavyweight champion of the world probably could, and should, attempt more offense from inside the guard. Maybe Cain would, maybe he wouldn’t, but his fight against Big Nog gave no indication whatsoever.
Cain didn't make an effort to take Rodrigo down
He wouldn’t do it with Werdum
Georges St-Pierre vs. Anderson Silva
by Chris Groves on Jun 23, 2011 3:55 AM EDT up reply actions
He probably would have if he was being outstruck and forced to back up on the feet, like Overeem in the first.
by paythefighters on Jun 23, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, see you just can't make statements like that.
It implies that you know he didn’t take him down because of his respect for Nog’s guard. You can’t know that. For all you know he planned on taking him down later on in the fight.
You guys seem to be assuming a lot based on one short fight contested entirely on the feet
GIF fail.
In any case, I wanted to show you Fedor beating down Big Nog. No one seemed to think he was a fool for that back in the day.
No
Because he won that fight. Like I said above, it’s a great thing… if you win.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
by Worldisart on Jun 22, 2011 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Clearly Werdums guard is more dangerous then Nogs......
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
but at the time....
…and that is my point, it wasn’t. Big Nog had the most dangerous guard in the world for a heavyweight, or at least it was thought that he did. Fedor destroyed that notion by going into it and smashing him.
Chris Groves mentions above that Overeem chilled out in Werdums guard for more than a bit. Which is a great way of putting it, because he was just chilling out. I think the fight was something like 8 minutes standing, 6 minutes on the ground and 1 minute of Werdum getting back to his feet.
Overeem played it really safe when it looked like he was strong enough to posture up and away from anything that Werdum threw at him. He is a good ground fighter in his own right and he would have really cemented his status as the man if he had done more on the ground instead of being so safe.
In terms of Cain, I thought you guys were suggesting he wouldn’t go to the ground ever with Werdum, takedowns included. I didn’t really mean “wading into the guard” to mean obliging fighters who do what Werdum did, but Overeem had some foot sweeps and takedowns, similarly I think Cain would execute some takedowns and he wouldn’t immediately stand up at the sign of danger. So we’re on the same page with that.
by Luke Nelson on Jun 23, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I hoped Overeem would treat Werdum’s guard more like Melendez did Aoki’s, but even when he was there he didn’t mount any real offense…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 23, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
That was a long, long time ago.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 23, 2011 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
He was a fool for doing it
and the fact that he actually pulled it off is why it was amazing. But the fact that such a big deal is made out of it should indicate how risky and foolish it really is. If this was considered a smart gameplan or something he SHOULD be doing, no one would care.
Fedor beating Nog's guard prolly lead Fedor to believe he could handle Werdum's too.....
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
Completely agree.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 23, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
People love to talk up Nog's guard, and they should.
But it’s not the best in MMA, he’s got great basics, sweeps, and armbars. But he’s not the best Jits fighter overall.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
Maybe I wouldn't recommend voluntarily dropping to the guard...
But I totally agree Overeem did nothing when he was already on the ground. He should also have kicked the legs when he was up and Werdum was down. He looked pretty lazy out there.
He looked very stiff and tentative, even on the feet, not at all smooth, fluid and quick like he looked against Rogers. I too was surprised he didn’t kick the hell our of Werdum’s legs while he was on his back, especially once his knee appeared injured.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 23, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
et us not forget that wading into the guard of a dangerous BJJ player and beating them down has made other men legends
correct, you get to be part of a legendary highlight
aka BuckeyedBear34
by T.P. Grant on Jun 23, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
This really speaks volumes
It’s gone wrong SO many times more than it’s gone right.
Lets also not forget that by doing a great job of refusing to go to the ground, TIM FUCKING SYLVIA almost beat BIG NOG. Nog had to pull out every trick he had to get Tim down, but he kept working for it and eventually got it and man was it beautiful.
Tim was beating the dog shit outta Nog.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
Ugh I hated watching that (part of the) fight
It looked like a “big bully beating down a smaller guy” for much of it, and poor old Nog was just getting smashed. That hurt. Say what you will about Sylvia, he has great reach and pretty accurate and powerful strikes. His legs and arms seemed like a mile long.
That final sequence was one of the coolest displays of MMA jiu-jitsu I've ever seen though
If you haven’t seen the Judo Chop of it, you should ASAP
Love that Diaz gif.
you can see Nick smile @ those fat drunk trolls that were talking shit to Diaz.
He throws his mouthpiece at them and smiles.
Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.
Yes, I’m a boxing fan who’s trying to like MMA, but I’ll say it again. Werdum was on his back, spread eagled, begging another man to mount him…
Yes, we get it.
If you’re going to focus on one of our worst fights then you’re not really trying. No one enjoyed that fight, it’s not representative of MMA.
…and he didn’t want Overeem to mount him; he wanted AO to jump into his guard.
Yep... I am sure there are examples of terrible fights in boxing that people can dredge up
Particularly ones where one/both fighter(s) fails to engage
Not to be too hard on you,
begging another man to mount him…
but if you are trying to like the sport, try some grappling. It’s fun and will increase your enjoyment of MMA 10×. You’ll learn the basic moves and terms, so you’ll be able to follow the commentary when the fight is on the ground or against the cage and you’ll also get to see first hand how difficult (and how completely not gay) ground fighting is.
I said Werdum looked gay, and I stand by that. I appreciate good jiu jitsu, probably as much as the average MMA fan appreciates good boxing, which is not a whole lot…I stand by what I said about what Werdum looked like. MMA is a combat sport and I enjoy it, not as much as boxing, and I’m not going to do go ground fighting just so I can appreciate it more. Not to be too hard on you, but some of you MMA fans take every criticism of your sport seriously. You have nothing to worry about, MMA is doing great and will continue to grow, despite that unfortunate fight last Saturday…
If it makes you feel better, I don’t take your criticism seriously at all.
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by Kevin Haggerty on Jun 25, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
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