MMA Fighters' Performance Drops After Nine Years, Maybe
Despite the rise of both FightMetric and CompuStrike over the last few years, statistical analysis of MMA is still in an infancy stage. MMA lacks the large, sortable databases readily available for sports like baseball or basketball, leaving amateurs like myself to crude data like result, time, and method.
So, I was excited to see David Williams' piece at Fight Opinion (and I recommend reading the entire piece before continuing here) about what he calls the "9-year rule." Williams' hypothesis suggest that a fighter's performance drops off nine years following his or her debut. He explained his methods as such:
To determine exactly when it is that fighters collapse, I need an objective method to measure how well fighters perform over time. Fortunately, I have a great tool to use to do this with SILVA, my statistical analysis system that estimates how good MMA fighters are. SILVA does this objectively by only looking at the wins and losses of a fighter and his opponents. It takes each of the opponents on a fighter's record, and assigns each fight a "Victory Score" based on how good the opponent is. This "Victory Score" is what I'll use to measure the performance of fighters over time.
For this study, I want to look at the collective performance of fighters over time against only the top tier of opponents, or what I define as a "UFC-quality fighter." The reason I do this is to filter out wins against inferior opponents: if a fighter is in the midst of a collapse, nobody is going to be convinced otherwise by a win against a 4-10 opponent on the regional circuit. With the parameters of the study set, I evaluated the careers of over 300 fighters, most of whom have competed in the UFC, to determine how well they perform according to how long they've been competing professionally.
The first thing that jumped out to me was "300 fighters." That's an incredibly shallow sample size. PECOTA, the baseball forecasting system developed for Baseball Prospectus by Nate Silver (more famous for his political blog Five Thirty Eight), compares players against a database of 20,000 major league batter seasons plus 15,000 translated minor league seasons. Three hundred samples represents less than one percent of the PECOTA database.
Part of the problem is that MMA at the highest level simply doesn't have the volume necessary to put together a reasonable study based on wins and losses. The UFC roster, from memory, fluctuates between 200 and 250 contracted fighters (that number may be higher with the addition of the bantam- and featherweight divisions). Williams doesn't address the date range he used here, though I would imagine (and hope) that he started in 2000 when commissions adopted the Unified Rules. I would estimate that there have been less than 1000 fighters that have fought for the UFC in since then.
Williams also doesn't fully explain how his SILVA system works, though it sounds an awful lot like a generic strength of schedule calculator, nor does he explain how he arrived at his 300 fighter sample. Was it the top 300 according to "Victory Score"? Was it a random sample of 300 fighters? Were there minimum fight requirements (FightMetric, for example, requires five fights before eligibility for various UFC records)?
There's also no definition of what makes one a "UFC-quality fighter." Again, is there a minimum record required? Is it anyone who received more than X fights in the UFC? Is it the top X% in each weight class by "Victory Score"? In addition, why thin your sample even further given the nature of a sport in which careers are fortunate to exceed 40 fights?
So, before we've even looked at the data, there's already a handful of issues that I'd like to see explained or cleaned up on the procedural side.
As for the data, this is how it shakes out:
| Year | Win % |
| 1 | 41.6 |
| 2 | 51.9 |
| 3 | 58.8 |
| 4 | 64.0 |
| 5 | 54.4 |
| 6 | 52.8 |
| 7 | 62.1 |
| 8 | 56.4 |
| 9 | 57.6 |
| 10 | 47.3 |
| 11 | 52.1 |
| 12 | 46.7 |
| 13 | 40.0 |
From this, Williams concludes:
The steepest drop takes place after the fighters measured had been competing professionally for 9 years. At that point, the ability of the fighters to compete against quality competition declines to the same level as when they were relative rookies in the sport. It doesn't mean that the fighters are incapable of winning against good opponents, but their ability to compete at the highest levels of the sport is greatly diminished. This can take root in various ways. Some fighters become much more prone to being knocked out. Some have a slower reaction time. Others start getting injured on a frequent basis. For some, the collapse is psychological: the fighter becomes mentally broken.
...
Further, the 9-year rule seems to apply regardless of the age of the fighter or how many times he's competed professionally. Ortiz and Arlovski only had fought 17 and 18 times, respectively, when they reached the 9-year mark of their careers, but they've both suffered recent collapses. Meanwhile, to go to the other extreme, Jeremy Horn had competed 91 times when he reached the 9-year mark of his career. Horn went 7-6 in his following 13 fights, including losses to Matt Lindland, Jorge Santiago, and Dean Lister.The rule seems to defy age as well. The effects of the 9-year rule on Randy Couture are debatable, because he went 5-3 afterwards with the famous win over Tim Sylvia, but given that two of those wins were against James Toney and Mark Coleman, I would argue that the rule applies to him as well. Meanwhile, the rule appears to have affected the careers of two fighters currently in their 20s: Joe Stevenson and Karo Parisyan were each just 25 years old when the 9-year rule took effect. Stevenson is 3-5 since then, and Parisyan is 1-3, with the latter having become known for suffering from severe panic attacks before his fights.
And here we find another issue with the methodology or, at least, the transparency and disclosure of the data: How many samples do we find in Years 12 and 13? I would struggle to name 50 fighters with who fought "UFC-quality" opponents in those years of their careers.
In addition, Williams notes his use of "Victory Score," and I wonder why that wasn't used in place (or in addition) to a straight winning percentage. I don't even need to mention the arbitrary (and, at times, seemingly random) nature of judging in MMA. But is defeat, even by stoppage, the best measure of one's performance? It's the same problem with judging pitchers by their win-loss record in baseball. You can pitch well, even extraordinarily so, and still come out with the "L." Baseball, however, has peripheral stats -- K/9, BB/9, etc. -- that currently eludes MMA.
We may find out that MMA fighters have their greatest success within the first nine years of their career. Or we may find out that their prime falls between ages X and Y. For right now, however, without a larger sample size and without a better understanding of the methodology behind this study, we don't have a conclusive answer either way.
50 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Overeem as well
had his first MMA fight in 99.
All of his best work, both what he has done in MMA and winning the K-1 GP, has been done in the last 2-3 years or so.
Georges St-Pierre vs. Anderson Silva
by Chris Groves on Jun 21, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah...
I love to see people playing with numbers in MMA, but this study is very shaky. Seems he found something in common with a handful of fighters and used that to support an otherwise invisible hypothesis, even going so far as to bend perception to support his case (Randy).
"I can be friends with anybody. Man. Woman. Cat. Dog. Fish..... Alien." -Rampage
BULLSHIT
on to the next story please
by WheresUrFootFetishNowPlayboy on Jun 21, 2011 3:22 PM EDT reply actions
seems like he's just picking out random names to support his argument
by WheresUrFootFetishNowPlayboy on Jun 21, 2011 3:24 PM EDT reply actions
Yep... could be confirmation bias
Funnily enough… I discussed this kind of fallacy in my class with my students just a few days ago.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
Mohandas Gandhi
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
Muhammad Ali
"If MMA is like dog fighting, those are some pretty fucking smart dogs."
"I don’t want to lick any butt."
GSP
Working backwards from a conclusion?
I’m not gonig to pretend I know anything about the scientific method, it just seems like he formed a conclusion and then worked backwards from that.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
I don’t think it’s that nefarious. I imagine he came up with a question (“When do MMA fighters peak?”), ran the data, and reached a conclusion that best fit the data.
Regardless, the sample size is a huge issue.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
Almost as big of an issue is that we’re still basically IN the first generation of fighters competing at a time when 99.9% of the highest level fighters cross train all disciplines. The guys right now who fought 9 years started their career in 2002 which is right around the time we were seeing a large group of well rounded talent. But there are going to be a lot of guys whose careers started in 1999 or before also. And it could just as easily be that the level of competition caught up to them as it is an age related performance shift.
For lightweights it could just as easily be that there wasn’t a ton of competition at lightweight at the highest level because there was a several year period where major promotions didn’t care about 155.
As interesting as it is to DO statistical analysis, there are just certain times where there just ISN’T enough data to do it.
The real interesting thing to me would be much more work intensive. Look at fighters, what age they start fighting, when they take steps up in competition, how many fights they have, how often…etc. and start to look at the proper way to bring a fighter to his peak. Proper career advancement. It’s got to be long term and ongoing. Which means you aren’t going to get juicy stories out of it. but over time it could really pay off.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 22, 2011 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
This study is like swiss cheese.
From the small sample size to the assertion that the 9 year rule is regardless of the age of the fighter or number of fights they’ve had, to even concluding that if a fighter has a layoff of a few years, they don’t count for the purposes of the 9 year rule (eg: Russow. I guess this is true of Einemo as well?). I think this brings up more questions about the study itself than it provides answers.
wouldn't the argument be
that getting punched in the head full-time takes a toll? So that if you had time off from getting punched in the head, that would significantly affect you performance?
Use more judges.
The following fighters either held/hold or won a major MMA title after nine years or more in the sports
Anderson Silva
GSP
Overeem
Henderson
Couture
Big Nog
Shogun
Wanderlei Silva
http://unintelligentdefense.blogspot.com
A small problem with this thought process…who fights for 9 years with little success (while remaining a “UFC-quality fighter”), then all of a sudden becomes a world beater? And of course an athletes performance and ability decline with age.
Few fighters can say they were consistent throughout their entire career and even fewer can say they left on top. Most fighters retire after a loss or a string of losses. That unfairly skews the figures in favor of his hypothesis.
This is an issue as well. If you look at age curving in baseball, it’s skewed at the end (I forget which age exactly, but it’s 38+) because the guys that end up playing that long are REALLY FUCKING GOOD. See: Mays, Willie; Aaron, Hank; Bonds, Barry; etc.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
Actually, from a scientific standpoint, the sample-size is pretty decent for a first tendency. Studies in other fields such as psychology or behavioural science use much smaler samples. The other issues you pointed out are valid though. Plus he does not compensate for other factors such as a greater strength in competition in later years which could lead to dropping winning percentages, a lower average age of fighters, changes in promotion (all the PRIDE guys dropping of after joining UFC) or stricter rule-sets or maybe even more drug-testing etc. As long as he cannot isolate “ring age” as a factor, his findings are weak indications at best.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
by KGNLuc on Jun 21, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Erm...that was meant to go under your other answer up there o.O
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
sabermetrics suck
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
MMA is too young for this type of study
I think the most obvious issue with this study is the age of MMA. Like it or not, TUF did a lot to mainstream MMA and the UFC, and that was only 6 years ago.
Many of these example fighters were successful in the earlier days of MMA. I think it is quite possible that the level of competition has increased so dramatically, particularly in the last 6 years, that any type of analysis is going to be totally skewed.
Look at the success the Matt Mitrione and Brendan Schaub are having. NFL caliber athletes who trained at reputable MMA gyms didn’t exist 9 years ago, there was not enough money in the sport to lure those guys over.
For the record, this is no disrespect to any of the pioneers of MMA. I just think if there were athletic heavyweights like Mitrione and Schaub, do you think someone like Sylvia would have been Heavyweight Champion of the world with a stiff jab and subpar wrestling? I just think the game has evolved and the new breed of MMA figher has to be athletic as well as a fighter.
I think the fighters who seem to defy this rule do so because they are exceptional athletes and always have been, not because of some magic number. Look at Nick Diaz, he has been fighting pro for over 10 years and is a champion. He also competes in triathalons….
I think we can only START data collecting now
Part of the problem is that MMA at the highest level simply doesn’t have the volume necessary to put together a reasonable study based on wins and losses
This was exactly my thought when I saw the headline.
If you go from when the UFC adopted Unified Rules, or arbitrarily from the year 2000 (and there might be some reasonable justification for dong that if we see the previous decade as “developmental.”), then a decade isn’t much to go on.
To some degree, the sport is still very much in development. Zuffa’s consolidation of MMA in the US will help to create a more stable statistical environment but we should keep in mind, the UFC just added the 5-round rule for non-title main events and that could well-change the nature of some aspects of the competition.
I think the work is worthwhile but it is preliminary at best.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
Mohandas Gandhi
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
Muhammad Ali
"If MMA is like dog fighting, those are some pretty fucking smart dogs."
"I don’t want to lick any butt."
GSP
To me
It’s like judging if a pitcher is good by looking at his ERA. ERA isn’t the best indicator of a pitchers success. WHIP is much better. I’d really love to be the Bill James of MMA stats but I just don’t have the time or the knowledge of statistics to do so.
"What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease."
Whip actually isn’t. FIP is probably better.
"So he basically called me a Jew. I was confused because I'm black and Methodist."
by rocket8188 on Jun 21, 2011 8:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Fun Fact
and off-topic, but every single one of GSP’s opponents have a “blue link” on his wikipedia page. That’s pretty cool to me considering that 99% of the fighters that I’ve looked up on wiki have a bunch of unknowns and “red links” for their first few fights. Lyoto is a close second, but he has at least two “unknowns” on his list.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jun 21, 2011 5:09 PM EDT reply actions
Touche good sir
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jun 21, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
this is different depending ones lifestyle, how much punishment you take, etc
look at bernard hopkins, he is a defensive fighter, and has a very healthy lifestyle, thats why he is fighting at 46, but look at julio ceasar chavez, he drank a lot and he was in some wars, he declined faster, wandy has been in wars and fights wreckless, he is no longer a contender, he is on the decline, and of course, not cross training and trying to step up your game will make you delince, defensive fighters will last longer than offensive fighters
I was actually keeping track of this same thing...
I was going to publish it in the future when I had much more data….but as it stands right now I have the average age of a high-level fighter’s peak at 9.07 years. So for what it is worth, two people using different methodologies came up with the same number. However, I am in the camp of “too soon to tell.”
by cokemachinebaby on Jun 21, 2011 5:49 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah, I mean, intuitively, with what you we know about other sports, a fighter’s peak at 9 years into a career makes sense, if we assume they debut in the sport between 18-22.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
sample size works differently in combat sports
since there are so fewer “competitions” in MMA, say 3 or 4 a year (at most) for a high level fighter versus 162 a year plus playoffs for an MLB player, it would take 30 years of study to come up with anything statistically relatable. however, since MMA athletes spend months rigorously training just for those 3 or 4 competitions, and the nature of those 3 or 4 competitions is so brutal, each individual fight takes on a size comparable to dozens of team sport games. another study i’d be interested in would be the impact of a fighter’s specific in-ring performances to his overall career (call it the nogueira study). i love football outsiders theory that running backs who receive 350 carries in a season are likely to regress and/or break down the following season, and would think a similar type of study could be done with MMA.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jun 21, 2011 5:59 PM EDT reply actions
It’s actually the “Curse of 370,” though this is a pretty strong argument against it:
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2008/07/drunkards-light-posts-and-myth-of-370.html
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
i’ve read that counterargument before and i can’t disagree with too much of it. what i love about the football outsiders theory is that it looks for a way to quantify an obvious yet overlooked truth (that running back is the most brutal position maybe in any sport, and that good RB’s are frequently run into the ground). in general, i’ve yet to really read anything from them that isn’t pretty flawed, but they have lots of things that are on the right track (such as their thing about highly drafted college QB’s who are accurate and get lots of starts in college— basically a needlessly complicated way of highlighting the obvious idea that highly drafted college skill position players should actually be, you know, good in college). this type of highlighting truths while undermining fanboy myths applies very well to MMA if you ask me.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jun 21, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t want to give the impression that I’m not an FO fan. It’s one of my favorites sites during football season.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
similarly, i didn’t want to give the impression that i think their stuff is gospel. much of their research is highly flawed, and their editor has a bad habit of dismissing on-field results as flukes. still, it’s a definite step in the right direction, as is stuff like fight metric and a lot of the things you guys do here.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jun 21, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
9 years may or may not be accurate...
however I think the basic premise is spot on and 9 years is probably about right.
more data and study will no doubt follow and will be welcome so I say good work fella!
This is the FIGHT game, so ffs get after him. Finish him!
Any hard rule like this is bound to be ridiculous
First, he makes no distinction between weight classes? Its pretty common knowledge that fighters in the lighter weight classes have a steeper “drop off” then heavier guys, mostly because of their reliance on speed.
Second, it also transcends fighting style. Strikers and bottom position grapplers rely on swiftness of technique and speed more than top position grinders, and thus probably have a shorter career lifespan.
Finally, if you tell me that all fight careers are equal in terms of damage inflicted to the body, you are just wrong. The Nogs, Wanderlei Silva, Chris Leben, are all good examples of guys who take a lot of punishment. Matt Hughes, Rashad Evans, Machida, GSP just don’t get hit nearly as much. Some guys are more susceptible to injuries. Shogun is going to have a shorter career than he would have if he hadn’t of stumbled into that first knee injury. I’d wager Jens Pulver wasn’t helped by his left hand being broken so many times. Karo might still be relevant if it wasn’t for his painkiller problem.
In short, I don’t think anyone should be surprised that guys start losing eventually, but to apply an arbitrary one size fits all drop off point is crazy. Ultimately, a lot of those guys might not even be declining physically, they might just not be evolving as quickly as this sport is. Nine years is a long time.
“First, he makes no distinction between weight classes? Its pretty common knowledge that fighters in the lighter weight classes have a steeper "drop off" then heavier guys, mostly because of their reliance on speed.”
Are you sure that’s the case? It seems to me, intuitively, that guys drop off faster at the lighter weights because there’s a bigger pool of talent coming to take their spot. Plus, relative speed is just as important at heavyweight as it is at the lighterweights (see: Cain and Fedor).
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
Well, its something I just knew intuitively to be true from boxing
I know these aren’t exactly top of the line sources, but this boxing forum topic seems to agree with me: http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64386
Either way, whatever the reason is we agree that the lighter guys don’t last as long, which goes against the 9 year thing being for everyone.
Obviously fighters will eventually decline. The sample of fighters who even make it to a ten year career is too thin to really draw a lot of conclusions from. Fighters have careers of vastly differing lengths, starting at widely varying ages, and fighting at differing levels of frequency. Notice that the winning percentage actually bounces back up between years 10 and 11. It’s not like people suddenly fall off a cliff at year 10.
While I do believe that the length of one’s career from its starting point, and the total number of fights one has had are often understated factors of decline compared to ones current age, I don’t think you can draw major conclusions here. Fighters’ performances aren’t suddenly falling off a cliff after nine year. I don’t know if you could draw much of anything from this, let alone to call something a “rule” even in the very loosest sense possible.
I did a similar study..
When there was the “age” contest. Somehow I didn’t win.. G
Anyhow, I found that fighters peak around the 10 year mark in most cases…
http://www.fightmatrix.com/2011/04/14/age-its-impact-on-fights-part-v/
Creator of the FightMatrix rating system [http://www.fightmatrix.com].
That was part 5
Part 1 – http://www.fightmatrix.com/2011/04/12/age-its-impact-on-fights-part-i/
Part 2 – http://www.fightmatrix.com/2011/04/12/age-it%E2%80%99s-impact-on-fights-part-ii/
Part 3 – http://www.fightmatrix.com/2011/04/13/age-its-impact-on-fights-part-iii/
Part 4 – http://www.fightmatrix.com/2011/04/13/age-its-impact-on-fights-part-iv/
Creator of the FightMatrix rating system [http://www.fightmatrix.com].
You have to applaud his attempt
The nature and history of baseball makes it easier to breakdown statistically. With basketball which has 60 years on MMA, it still has limited saber stats like PER and plus/minus. Everything requires context and scope and this guy took the data he had, applied the best context he could, and came to a conclusion.
There will be people to are exceptions to the rule. Couture and Overeem are obvious ones even though I’m sure Overeem’s ascent is similar to Barry Bonds. PECOTA isn’t always right even with he amount of data it encases, which is why we play the games, or in this case fight the fights.
This could only be the beginning.
"So he basically called me a Jew. I was confused because I'm black and Methodist."
by rocket8188 on Jun 21, 2011 8:52 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I have been following MMA for years and have always kind of felt that a fighter has about ten years.
9 is close enough. By in large, the guys who started competing in their early 20s have trouble by their mid 30s where as guys who start later can continue later into their 40s.
Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.
I think this is interesting, despite its flaws. Two thoughts:
1) Yes, the sample size is small, especially when you consider the different weight classes. 300 fighters, divided by probably 5 weight classes he used = just 60 fighters per class. That’s not a lot at all – probably anyone reading this could rattle of 60 active, quality fighters per division over the past decade, which means a lot of good fighters were not included.
2) I’m interested to hear from some of the die hard boxing fans around here how this fits in with boxing’s similar numbers. When is considered a boxer’s prime vs. drop off? I thought about how this idea relates to kickboxing, and it’s very tricky, as you have a lot of kickboxers with really long careers – guys like Aerts, Le Banner, Hug, Souwer, Hoost… So how do boxers compare?
Staff Writer - BloodyElbow.com
Follow me on Twitter: @FCoffeen
by Fraser Coffeen on Jun 21, 2011 10:19 PM EDT reply actions
i
the old man in Diggstown would whoop all deez foos .. in the same day
this was an excellent post
someone might have already asked but what about fighters who fluctuate weight classes.
Aaron Simpson is the 30 something Randy Couture of the 40 somethings. - Mike Goldberg

by 














