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Around SBN: VIDEO: Veterans Share Favorite Sports Memories

This Thing Called Ultimate Fighting: Sport of the Future or Passing Fad?

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Yesterday, June 19th marked the seventh anniversary of my friend’s wedding.  I remember the day well: a beautiful ceremony in the Pacific Palisades on a hillside overlooking the ocean, presided over by the bride’s uncle, a sitting Ventura County judge, and closing with the couple reading to each other their own self-written vows. They were the definition of a couple with a bright future ahead of them: he was a network technical director easily making seven figures a year; she was an advertising copywriter and, unbeknownst to anyone, already pregnant with their first child. Yes, I remember the day well, for coincidentally that same day was one of the great MMA events of all time.

7 years ago that day, the Ultimate Fighting Championship held perhaps their most successful card of 2004, UFC 48. Headlined by a rematch from UFC 8 of Ken Shamrock vs Kimo Leopaldo, it would sell 110,000 pay-pay-views, a number only surpassed (at that time) under Zuffa’s reign two years earlier by Tito Ortiz’s and Ken Shamrock’s UFC 40.  It would also have the third-highest gate of the year with 10,000 fans paying $900,000 for tickets (although little more than 6,000 actually paid for their seats). The event is best remembered as where Frank Mir snapped Tim Sylvia’s arm to win the UFC Heavyweight Belt in a fight that was oddly buried in the middle of the card - talk about lack of respect for your titles - but to Zuffa UFC 48 was noteworthy as being one of the only 3 or 4 cards that they had actually seen a profit on. Such was the position of MMA in North America at that point in time that this could be called with a straight-face a success.

But that was not the event.

A few hours after Ken had finished Kimo with his knees another MMA event on the other side of the world was just getting underway. This event was held just outside of Tokyo and inside the Saitama Superdome (announced crowd 43,000 although actually attendance was probably closer to 30,000) and was broadcast across the island nation on FUJI Television. While millions in Japan were able to watch Pride's Critical Countdown 2004 live (it garnered something like a 17% share of the viewing audience), I, who was attending a wedding,  could not and thus missed two of the greatest finishes in the sport’s history: Rampage’s powerbomb of Arona and Fedor’s miraculous comeback after being Randleplexed

Much has changed in the 7 years since they exchanged vows: they have given birth to two beautiful children; after 15 years of service he was downsized from his job and has remained, for the most part, unemployed since; their home has gone into foreclosure; and 8 months ago the two separated and are now going through a bitter divorce.  7 years ago it would have impossible to imagine such would be their fate, but that is where we are today.

For Pride and sougou kakutougi, the descent has been just as precipitous as my friends.  A week doesn’t go by without a new story throwing more dirt onto the grave of Japanese MMA. The most recent detailed the failing of its (formerly) premiere promotion to pay their fighters.  Hard to believe that if one was to travel through Japan in the summer of 2004 you couldn’t throw a rock and not hit someone who was a fan of this thing called Pride fighting. Huge TV ratings and massive crowds attested to the fact that the center of the MMA universe was Tokyo and not Las Vegas. Now, even when they manage to hold an event, it is before crowds a fraction of their previous sizes, with no presence on television, and a great chance that the fighters who take part paychecks bounce.

Fortunately for us living in the UFC hemisphere of the world, we have not been bedeviled by such ailments. Here the sport has never been more popular, has never been more mainstream, and has never been more profitable – at least for the one major promotion.

Star-divide

Dana White and Lorenzo Fertitta are fond of claiming that the UFC is the sport of the future and will one day be the biggest sport’s league in the world, surpassing the behemoths named football being played on both sides of the pond. And while many will scoff at this notion a recent article by Bill King in the Sports Business Journal shows that there is much for the UFC and its owners, Zuffa, to crow about. According to King:

[Zuffa] eclipsed $400 million in revenue last year. A sport that was an outlier when [Fertitta] bought it is now regulated in 45 states, with a global footprint that includes Europe, Asia, South America and Australia. It is proving it can land blue-chip sponsors that will help expose it to the masses.

It is sometimes hard to fathom the turnaround the UFC has seen in their fortunes. In 2004 they held only five events all year, with all but one of them being in Las Vegas, selling a little more than 400,000 pay-per-views and were probably looking at less than $20 million in total revenue that year. Now compare that to the record 9 million plus pay-per-views sold in 2010, their recent Toronto card, which smashed all North American attendance and gate figures, or that over the course of 2011 they will be holding at least 22 events in 11 different states and four different countries. And when one examines the demographics of their fanbase the future looks even brighter than the present. 

Based on surveys taken January through April, the polling firm Luker on Trends, which conducts the ESPN Sports Poll, estimates that about 30 million Americans age 12 and older are avid UFC fans, with 42 percent of those falling in the 12-34 bracket. About one-third of males 18-24 and one-fifth of those 25-34 said they were avid MMA fans.

In the four years that the Sports Poll counted MMA fans, the avid segment — the one that matters most to sponsors and TV networks — grew steadily from 12.7 percent of respondents to 13.9 percent, even as the avid base for many sports has remained flat or declined. Last year, the avid fan base of MMA in the U.S. trailed only pro and college football, pro and college basketball and Major League Baseball. And that’s from the larger fan pool, not just under-34 males.

It is statistics such as those that has Zuffa and sponsors salivating. To witness a prime example of their appeal one needs only to look at their Facebook page which has grown to have 5.5 million fans, second only to Facebook king the NBA, which has 8.6 million fans, and ahead of the NFL (3.1 million), the NHL (1.6 million), and MLB (a measly 400,000). The numbers do not lie, the UFC possesses as strong a fanbase amongst young males as those four.

But before we start celebrating the coming 1,000-year Pax UFC, we should note in that same article the comments of one Rich Luker, the man who founded what would become the ESPN Sports Poll.

Luker acknowledges that which is impossible to ignore: that UFC holds a prominent place among young males. But he remains skeptical about its staying power, questioning its ability to hold on to the fans it has added outside of its core.

"The curiosity factor draws a lot of people in," Luker said. "We’re in that window right now with UFC. It reminds me of poker and professional bull riding. There was a window where curiosity drove people’s interest. But you just don’t hear about poker being hot any more.

"We predict this will not be a long run."

Luker points to a red flag that he says the UFC shares with bull riding, poker and even NASCAR, which has seen casual fans drift away in recent years. An inordinate share of those who express a strong interest in MMA are not avid sports fans, Luker said.

"The pedigree of engagement in sports is not near what you find in the traditional sports that we track," he said. "So they’re not going to have the same sort of stable duration of fan base.

"If UFC can take what they have and keep it pure … it is the kind of thing that some people will seek out. But this is not a mainstream sport. And it won’t be.

Is there any truth to what he says, that the UFC and MMA are nothing more than fads? That it will never be a mainstream sport, the stated goal of Dana White? While a casual examination of the numbers above would seem to contradict Luker's claim, further examination finds that there may be something to it. First off, for all its success, it is still very much a niche sport. Even with over $400 million in revenue it is dwarfed by what the NFL ($8 billion), MLB ($7 billion), NBA ($4.2 billion) and even the NHL ($2.7 billion) generated in 2010.

Furthermore, while pay-per-view sales have indeed skyrocket, another indicator hasn't seen the same increase. As Jonathan Snowden recently observed, while sports in general have seen a huge growth in their television ratings the UFC has not. The reasons are many, but one may be that Luker is correct in his analysis that most UFC fans are not avid sports fans. Indeed, it is well known in the MMA community, that a large portion of the fanbase was carved out from that of the WWE's fan base, a fake sport which appeals to those with less interest in other sports. In any case, the success of their pay-per-views over their free offerings seems to suggest that for a large number of fans watching the UFC is a social activity much more than it is for fans of other sports. A hardcore base that is willing to pay much more than other sports fans for their preferred form of entertainment may be the recipe for profits, but would  not seem to be the recipe for wider appeal.  Let former HBO Sports President Ross Greenburg explaine the impact pay-per-view has on sport (boxing):

"I can't tell you that pay-per-view helps the sport because it doesn't. It hurts the sport because it narrows our audience, but it's a fact of life."

The touted demographics themselves also argue against some sort of future mainstream success. According to Diana Illiano, publicist for Scarborough Sports Marketing, a company that is studying the sport's fans and their purchasing habits, only 20% of the UFC’s fanbase is female. In comparison, amongst the big four major leagues (NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL) the next lowest is the NBA with 36.4 % of their fans being female. Can a sport become mainstream by appealing so little to half the population?  I would argue it would be difficult. If one examines the major fan-types and their reasons for being passionate for certain sports, two of them seem to preclude the UFC from attaining that status:  Field of Dreamers (nostalgia) and Team Obsessors. Having been in existence for less than two decades there is not a lot history for MMA to appeal to the former, while the latter is not applicable.  The third group, Family Connectors, is threatened by an image of the sport being racist, homophobic, and sexist. Recent comments by prominent figures in the UFC don't help to change this image.

That the fans themselves can be seen as a hindrance would not come as a surprise to the owners of Zuffa who have recruited Bryan Johnson, former vice president of marketing at Burton Snowboards, to help clean up an aspect of the business that they had neglected — the lifestyle element — which had in many ways come to define the image many had of the UFC.  

"If you weren’t wearing a gold foiled T-shirt with talons and blood, you weren’t UFC," Johnston said. "Lorenzo and Dana saw what it was becoming and they were ready to puke."

But can they really risk alienating such a solidly loyal group? If their  eventual goal is to truly go mainstream and become the biggest sport in the world, or even a moderately mainstream sport, then the answer has to be yes. And with rumors of  a Zuffa possibly purchasing a share of the G4 network and/or entering a broadcast deal with Comcast which, according to Bill King, has 

several assets that UFC sees as valuable to its growth: a large mothership network in NBC; various niche channels on which to promote its lifestyle elements; Comcast SportsNet, to promote to mainstream sports fans in key markets such as Boston, Philadelphia and Chicago; and a large stake in the cable business, which would give it a greater motivation to forward UFC’s core business, pay-per-view.

then perhaps they are really taking the plunge towards mass appeal. If they are truly doing so I applaud their actions but I would still question the wisdom of it.

Over the next few years Zuffa will have to face a dilemma: do they try and preserve what they have and risk it all disappearing, or at least  seeing it greatly diminished, if it turns out to have been nothing more than a fad? Or do they try and actually push the sport into  the mainstream, a mainstream that may not really have any interest in watching men fight in a cage, and thus risk losing the core fanbase that has propelled them to where they are? The answer isn't easy, for every Mongol Horde to hold up as an example of success, there is a Helvetian disaster to hold up as warning; for every Masada there is a Maginot Line.

And perhaps the UFC will not have to make a choice and their own success will prove their downfall - troubles in New York have resulted in discussions of applying the Mohammed Ali Boxing Reform Act to mixed martial arts (which I see actually being a universal good), the purchase of Strikeforce has brought out charges of monopoly and a rumored FTC investigation with unforeseeable consequences for Zuffa. These and a myriad of other challenges face a sport and a promotion that has only found success in the last 7 years.

And if I ever need a reminder of how much can change in only a few years I can go to my friend's Myspace and revisit his wedding photos. 

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

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That's what she said.

Sorry. Too much “Office”.

by INGO B on Jun 21, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

5 years ago I'd have said "No such thing."

But the show has declined in recent years IMO.

Learn JiuJitsu.
While utilizing his face to absorb karate, Rashad Evans drunkenly explained to Lyoto that he hits like a little b**ch.

by RolloTomasi on Jun 21, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

You haven't seen anything yet.

Groves is busy typing up a 4 page response to your comment where he repeats himself and expands even the smallest talking points into long winded paragraphs.

Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.

by lowellthehammer on Jun 21, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

PPV is death for growth at this point I think anecdotally

I know more than a few people who know I’m a pretty dedicated fan who ask “how am I supposed to be a fan if I can’t just watch the fights I want to watch without paying 50 bucks per?” The answer is they can’t, and there is no such thing as a casual fan of MMA in the terms we talk about a casual basketball fan. As a casual basketball fan, I can easily just watch the playoffs or big games if they’re on TV and nothing else is going on etc, in MMA it’s the exact opposite where it’s harder to watch the big fights that anyone actually cares about. There’s a ceiling on the PPV model.

Unfortunately these are the people that are now at the margins of the UFC’s growth as they are nearing the saturation point on viewers who are willing to pay money to watch the fights, at least in the US/Canada. I don’t want to say it’s plateaued because I don’t think it has in the strictest sense, but growth rate seems to be slowing for sure and there absolutely will not be any mainstream acceptance till the big cards are on network TV or ESPN. Short term I doubt it makes financial sense to sign that sort of a deal, but if they want to be a $20B business and not a $2B business, that’s where they are going to have to head. Having 100 million casual fans who watch 20% of the time is MUCH more valuable than 10 million super fans who watch all the time. Obviously I’m pulling those numbers out of my ass, but you get my point. And if 16 million people were willing to come together to pay for MMA’s so far Super duper Bowl, how many people would have been watching if it had been advertised to hell on NBC and was free?

They’ve been wildly successful in getting this thing off the ground with PPV, but the next few years are when we see if it’s a glider or a jumbo jet that everyone can take.

Not afraid to nitpick

by joker24 on Jun 21, 2011 7:02 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The problem is that fighters just can't fight enough for free TV to work

In the NBA, you have each of the big stars playing 82 times a year. In the UFC, they probably average twice a year after injuries. On top of that, MMA stars can only really carry ratings for maybe 15 minutes on average (okay, there’s some spillover to the rest of the card, but as Fedor-Rogers showed, the main event can have much higher ratings than the rest), while the major sports league games are about 2.5 hours.

That a factor of up to 400 in the amount of advertising time that an elite MMA fighter can garner versus an elite NBA star. You need to concentrate the income in boxing and MMA, so PPV is the clear option for maximizing revenue, even if we optimistically assume the big cards could grow to 10M viewers on free TV.

by paythefighters on Jun 21, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hmmm did you calculate that correctly?

You have to factor in that during the 2.5 hours, two full teams participate. So you’ve got to divide by the number of players to get the amount of advertising time per NBA star.

by Arca MMA on Jun 22, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

The fighters are the "teams" in combat sports

Whether it’s Joe Louis, Mike Tyson, or Randy Couture, combat sports fans identify with individual fighters and follow them in the same way they would follow their favorite team. This is why fighter T-shirts have their names on them. When you get something like Lesnar-Mir, this feeling can pay off in a huge way. This is also why, in my opinion, the UFC should become more ‘tournamentish’ in its matchmaking. This is not to say they should have full-blown tournaments like Bellator, but incorporating some of these elements, such as seasons and logical transparency of matchups (if not an actual tournament every once in a blue moon) would help Team obsessors identify the individual fighter that is for them.

by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jun 21, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but those fighters retire after a decade or so. Teams don’t retire, so you can keep following them.

by crazybones on Jun 21, 2011 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you for the compliments.

A lot of good thoughts, of which I can only address one: I did witness Japan during the JMMA craze. I didn’t see any actual matches, but I was aware of the sport beforehand, and even then I was surprised how many people knew about it and watched it in late summer of 2004. Especially the youth. It was the thing to a magnitude that seems incomparable to the current craze in North America.
Now since I don’t speak Japanese, I can’t say for certain that it was only a fad and that I should have recognized it as such. But maybe the fact that many of those people seemed convinced that Ogawa had a chance against Fedor should have tipped me off to it? Who knows?

by John Nash on Jun 21, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I some Japanese combat sports fans

It was definitely a fad. Japan is a trend culture.

"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."

by TheFilt on Jun 21, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Silent Library is still one of my favorite parts about Japan.

And how crazy they are in Osaka over baseball and getting shitfaced and eating everything in sight.

It's just a world, it's just a life.

by DirtyML on Jun 21, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Go Orix Buffaloes! Going to a Hanshin Tigers game was pretty fun to.

And was Silent Library the show with Bobby Ologun where a bunch of dudes sat in a library trying to be quit while they turned on the fart machine? I still remember that show.

by John Nash on Jun 21, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right on target. My opinion is that the UFC has staying power but will never challege the big ball sports. I don’t think they will just fade away like a fad but I think they will start going through cycles of growth and stagnation much like the WWE does. Fighting just isn’t ever going to take over the sports world no matter what the fighting rules are.

by who me on Jun 21, 2011 8:10 AM EDT reply actions  

agreed

and while the fighters’ quality/technique is definitely improving, you cant really say that the actual excitement in fights is rapidly improving with it, if anything the excitement is decreasing as the top of the top segregate more from the lower level fighters.
Its not going to attract a lot of viewers if you/they don’t already follow a bunch of certain fighters.
When i think about it more, i CANT see any reason why mma WONT turn out like WWE or boxing, especially if ufc continue to follow their business model.

anyway, nottheface it was a great read, but the article could do with more pictures so i don’t have that feeling like i’m about to sit down and read a novel. plus i like shiny things and pictures keep me focused.

Hello Ace

by New_User on Jun 21, 2011 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s pretty much how I see it. Still profitable but not the next major sport many are forecasting.

by John Nash on Jun 21, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great article, if depressing

Your historical analogies need work.

For every Masada there is a Maginot Line.

So, for every long and heroic yet utterly futile siege there is a big, expensive strategy that carries the hope of millions but fails miserably?

Awesome. I’ll just pop off and hang myself then.

Never approach a vast undertaking with a half-vast plan.

by szquirrel on Jun 21, 2011 9:28 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I used the Mongols, Helvetians, Masada, and the Maginot Lines as extreme example of expansion policy and defensive policy. The Mongols successful set out on a risky venture to conquer an empire; the Helvetians failed. Masada was fortress that was impenetrable; the Maginot Line offered only false security.

I should have went with Alamut, but then there would be no alliteration.

by John Nash on Jun 21, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

But the Masada was taken over by the Romans....

At least that was what the wiki on it said. I had to go wiki it though and I wanted to, so that is good. But I got the connection, because the maginot line is obv not equal to the masada in terms of defensive capabilities

by Luke Nelson on Jun 21, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Masada has often been used as the archetype for being unconquerable. Apparently by killing themselves it didn’t go down as a loss.

by John Nash on Jun 21, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Worked for Gray Maynard...

"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna

by VenusBlue on Jun 22, 2011 4:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nice.

Bolts from the Blue // "I eat cereal out of a giant novelty wine glass because it makes me feel fancy." - Britney Wade
Bloody Elbow // "Everybody underestimates the kick in the groin." - Bas Rutten

by Richard Wade on Jun 22, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Masada was only taken after the Jews committed mass suicide

The fortress itself did exactly what it was supposed to do: hold out for years against superior numbers and technology.

by Hummus5989 on Jun 22, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I view the comment sections as a conversation, so as to not worry about auxiliary verbs and such.

by John Nash on Jun 22, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s going to be a passing fad if Zuffa doesn’t change their production/business model.

It's just a world, it's just a life.

by DirtyML on Jun 21, 2011 9:48 AM EDT reply actions  

Great article.

Very interesting read.

However, Luker cannot seriously compare Poker to the MMA. Can’t get more opposite than those two.

by INGO B on Jun 21, 2011 9:48 AM EDT reply actions  

Opposite

in terms of the actions taking place, sure, but I think right on in terms of demographic and heat surrounding it. I have been following MMA for about 8-10 years now, but my buddies who jumped all over Texas Hold "em, played twice a week, and watched it nonstop on ESPN never even mention it anymore. They are also just now discovering “UFC” and while I would describe them as diehard mainstream sports fans, they view “UFC” much like they did poker. Intriguing and awesome in the short term, but will fizzle after they get their fill.

by wmuk on Jun 21, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

cards isn't a sport

it is a leisure activity. Bringing up poker in a sports conversation is as stupid as it gets frankly.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's still televised entertainment

Where does snooker fit in, is it a sport or a game? Darts? Golf? Lawn bowls? The line gets blurry but watching people compete either in a game or a sport can be televised, can be followed, can be sustainable or a fad.

I don’t think it’s all that stupid to mention it.

by Arca MMA on Jun 22, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

if poker had the payoff of tremendous knockouts then maybe

not buying it.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 22, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cable TV or death

It can’t survive and/or growth in the current PPV model. MMA needs to be on TV reguarily for it to grow and sustain itself.

Keep the great outlet on the internet (streaming pre-lims, twittering everything, responding to blogs directly), but without being on cable TV it will be forgotten.

Cable TV can be anything from broadcast TV (doubtful CBS would try with the UFC), to standard cable channel (always thought the turner stations were the way to go – TBS, TNT, USA, etc) or a premium channel. Can not survive on PPVs forever, folks will lose interest and money after a while.

Go Orange(men)!

by SUmonkey on Jun 21, 2011 10:16 AM EDT reply actions  

I think the people at Zuffa have a very clear idea of what the UFC and MMA is, and the limitations of its appeal. I also thing that’s why they’re so keen to expand to new markets – they’ll never be more than a significant niche, but if they’re a significant niche in large markets around the world and not just limited to North America…

by Pyrgz Krum on Jun 21, 2011 10:26 AM EDT reply actions  

UFC has more worldwide potential and Zuffa knows it

There are so many untapped markets throughout Europe and Asia that I think the UFC is more than willing to remain a fringe mainstream sport in the US if it can continue to grow its worldwide brand. Maybe it’s all the Brazilians in the sport, or the draw of American athletes outside of the traditional football/basketball/baseball pool, but MMA has an undeniable ‘soccer’ vibe that I think will stagnate its growth in America but will allow it to flourish elsewhere.

by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jun 21, 2011 10:30 AM EDT reply actions  

Here’s the thing to me that I find amazing – This year, the UFC will run no events in Europe. Not Germany, not England, not Ireland, not Sweden. Nowhere. They’re also not going back to Abu Dhabi either. If you’re planning on building up an international base of fans, how can you expect to do that by not running any live events for a whole year?

Its simply assumed that the UFC has been a success in these international ventures, and yet that’s not the case at all.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 21, 2011 11:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Originally I had a portion discussing how they had already plateaued in England and questioned what would happen to Canada, where a 1/4 of all ppvs are sold, as soon as GSP loses and there is no Canadian stars to hang there hat on. But in this one case I went with brevity.
There seems to be trend developing in foreign markets where there is some intense interest in the live shows when the UFC shows up but that interest wains as soon it is apparent that no local stars are going to rise up and challenge within the sport.

So yeah, this idea that there is a huge foreign market is probably a little premature.

by John Nash on Jun 21, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a great point, as my optimism about the sport’s growth is mainly tied to what looked like pretty aggressive attempts to build new markets. Fighting is universal, as Dana likes to say, but there’s still only a small percentage of any group of people that is going to become obsessed enough to regularly buy PPV’s. The UFC is going to need to harvest that small percentage across a wide numbers of markets in order to keep this thing rolling along, and that is a daunting challenge. It won’t be enough to just put an event on in one or two different parts of the world each year. Repeat visits and a steady diet of international shows are necessary to build and keep these fanbases. So we’ll see how it goes. Obviously that’s a long term strategy, and it will take time to see if the UFC can pull it off, but for me the sport’s continued growth depends on it.

What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?

by Kwisatz Haderach on Jun 21, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

As someone who got into the sport in early 2008

I don’t think MMA in a fad. I think it is a niche sport, as all combat or martial sports are, but it isn’t going anywhere.

Televised poker was fun for a while, but in the end it is people playing cards. People point to NASCAR as a huge flop but it is still a massive sport, because it has a strong base line of interest. Tt just failed to become the biggest sport in the U.S. like it was threatening to 5 years ago but there are motor-heads every where (including my father) who watch any and all auto-racing he can.

The fan base for MMA is a solid one. There are the people who just enjoy combat sports who gravitate towards MMA because it is a fighting sport. There are the Pro Wrestling cross-overs.

And then there a people like me. I’m a sports fan (NFL, NCAA FB, MLB though baseball is fading for me, NHL) but I never played team sports. I was involved in martial sports from high school on and I liked MMA and boxing because there is an intangible something about two athletes squaring off. No teams, just athlete vs athlete. I think practitioners of every martial sport or art from wrestling to Kempo can appreciate this aspect of MMA.

I think there will always to be a baseline interest in the sport and the causal interest will be governed by star-appeal of fighters, how available the fights are to be watched (aka getting off PPV) and amount of coverage given to events by major media outlets.

aka BuckeyedBear34

by T.P. Grant on Jun 21, 2011 1:16 PM EDT reply actions  

One thing that I always consider when someone asks whether MMA is a fad or not is simply what other combat sports are out there? There is an audience out there for combat sports, and there will always have this need for MMA for that audience especially since it is so different from other combat sports like boxing.
The other thing to consider is that MMA is an avenue for high-level athletes to make money and stay competitive. There are no shortage of high-level wrestlers, BJJ practitioners, judoka, kickboxers, boxers, and other disciplines to make good money competing. Because there is such a large pool of offshoot disciplines to get into MMA, it really differentiates itself from other combat sports like boxing that is so singular in its sport (mainly punching).
My friend finds MMA to be something of a passing fad. He feels that the casual audience that watches MMA/the UFC right now is just watching it because it is the “in” thing. The thing is though is we don’t know what changes will happen to the sport in the future. Someone mentioned in another post in another article that the huge popularity of baseball from Hispanics is something that is relatively recent, so who knows who MMA will appeal to in the future?

Check out the C&D Channel on YouTube for MMA reviews, predictions, analysis, and other MMA related content.

by chrisbboy82 on Jun 22, 2011 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

lol the comments from some big sports media figure attempting to impose his personal dislike for MMA into opinion
Luker points to a red flag that he says the UFC shares with bull riding, poker and even NASCAR, which has seen casual fans drift away in recent years. An inordinate share of those who express a strong interest in MMA are not avid sports fans, Luker said.

“The pedigree of engagement in sports is not near what you find in the traditional sports that we track,” he said. "So they’re not going to have the same sort of stable duration of fan base.

“If UFC can take what they have and keep it pure … it is the kind of thing that some people will seek out. But this is not a mainstream sport. And it won’t be.

Nascar is absolutely mainstream and for a good chunk of the country permanently entrenched deeper than NBA and other sports. People who don’t live in rural America anywhere, much less the South, the Midwest or Suburban areas where Nascar is huge have no clue how big it is and what it means culturally at this point.

The UFC already is mainstream by all definitions of the term that can be references in any dictionary or other source, and only internet people and guys like the above quoted take it upon themselves to claim otherwise. Bullriding and Poker are not the same kind of sports and never had close to the level of success the UFC is enjoying. Not even close.

There are only two sports in my mind that any similarities can be drawn with the UFC – NASCAR and “Action Sports” like skateboarding from the 90s. Nascar is here to stay while action sports have receded somewhat back into their niche. But the UFC is much more similar to NASCAR. NASCAR has a centralized brand associated with it and a cohesive business model. The annual X-Games and Tony Hawk were the only brands associated with Action Sports. Action Sports never had a cohesive strategy to break into the mainstream. Not that they ever really could with most Action Sports being forever linked to teenage culture. MMA is different. Fighting is easy to sell and you don’t need baggy jeans(girl pants nowdays) to enjoy it. Much like racing.

The UFC may suffer from ebbs and flows, valleys and peaks in popularity as we move forward as all sports, including the mighty NFL, but it is absolutely mainstream and here to stay.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 1:28 PM EDT reply actions  

What are your criteria for defining something as "absolutely mainstream"?

Personally I think it’s large for a non-mainstream sport, definitely not mainstream. Why? Because most people know nothing about it, haven’t seen it, and have no interest in seeing it. MMA news doesn’t regularly make the news, the papers, most typical mainstream outlets. By comparison, look at how often boxing results are mentioned in typical newspaper sports pages vs MMA fights.

by Arca MMA on Jun 22, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

the only boxing people care about is Pacman and Mayweather outside of the niche

I hear about MMA and talk to MMA fans much more often. MMA is everywhere. It may have just broken into the mainstream, but it is there now. You can point at somewhere where MMA isn’t and I can point to somewhere where it is now. The growth has been amazing to watch. Old Media may not all be on board but in 2011 not being in a news paper article hardly disqualifies someone.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 22, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I always find it ridiculous the number of MMA hardcores and journalists that confuse "mainstream" with "as popular as the NF freakin L"

The UFC is mainstream.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 1:37 PM EDT reply actions  

this is ture but what does "Mainstream" mean?

that ESPN covers it? that its on network TV? that the average person goes “oh yea I’ve heard of that”?

aka BuckeyedBear34

by T.P. Grant on Jun 21, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would say

Yes. The UFC has products sold at every Walmart in the nation and most all high end outfitters. I can buy Dan Henderson beer coosys next to Pink Floyd ashtrays and Jeff Gordon lighters at the local truck stop. The UFC has video games in addition to the other MMA video games for rent at Blockbuster right now. Fighters are making cameos on TV shows and MMA fighting has worked its way into the plots and settings of both films and TV. The presence of MMA is everywhere right now. From “Four Christmases” to AMC’s plodding drama “The Killing”(an aside,a terrible disappointment vs its influences(IE The Wire) and the network’s standards(Breaking Bad)

No one can produce any reasonable definition of the term mainstream to disqualify the UFC from being mainstream. The only thing people can do is point out where the UFC isn’t as popular as the Big Three.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't see this when I asked above what your criteria are...

Here, you’ve given some examples so I can extract a little info about what your criteria are but a clear list would be helpful.

by Arca MMA on Jun 22, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then I looked it up

main·stream (mnstrm)
n.
The prevailing current of thought, influence, or activity: “You need not accept the nominee’s ideology, only be able to locate it in the American mainstream” (Charles Krauthammer).
adj.
Representing the prevalent attitudes, values, and practices of a society or group: mainstream morality.

Well, I don’t think we can say that the UFC/MMA can be called “prevailing current of thought/activitiy” in the USA or the world.

by Arca MMA on Jun 22, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

some people think mainstream means on espn or network TV, and if they were in charge they would be moving to fit that definition at the expense of making money.

by Phildo on Jun 21, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

what does this statement mean?

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That they would make less money on network TV with the potential of drawing in far more viewers than by charging people to watch fights on PPV.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 21, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Other sports make money without PPV on network TV

PPV is dying as an overall industry. The UFC needs to move away from that model eventually.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

they will move away when there is a way for them to make more money away from ppv than on ppv.

by Phildo on Jun 21, 2011 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

First day of college, talking to a kid I had just met on my floor

Me: “Do you like UFC?”
Him: “No, I don’t watch wrestling”
He meant professional wrestling. I deliberately used “UFC” instead of “MMA” because the kid didn’t look like he followed sports.

My brother doesn’t watch any channels other than ESPN. He can recognize half of college football players wearing street clothes but can’t (and doesn’t) know who Jon Jones, Georges St. Pierre, and Brock Lesnar are. Seriously. During the Spike Guys Choice Awards they showed Jones on tv, and I sarcastically said “Who is that?” and he responded with “I don’t know, probably some random athlete.”

"I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to."- Albert Einstein

by Tim Bernier on Jun 23, 2011 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

So a sport that was illegal 10 years ago hasn't saturated the market?

Is it realistic for every average joe to know UFC fighters with only six years mainstream exposure and only three or so big time exposure from ESPN? Mainstream doesn’t mean universally known or liked. I can only hammer this point so many times.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 23, 2011 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here the sport has never been more popular, has never been more mainstream, and has never been more profitable – at least for the one major promotion.

You don’t really need that qualifier at the end. The sport is in a place today that most never imagined it would be in terms of revenue, exposure and viewership.

Unless Congress decides to ban amateur MMA competitions like they banned qualifying for the WSOP online, I don’t think MMA is going to go the way of poker any time soon.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Jun 21, 2011 3:44 PM EDT reply actions  

First of, for all its success, it is still very much a niche sport. Even with over $400 million in revenue it is dwarfed by what the NFL ($8 billion), MLB ($7 billion), NBA ($4.2 billion) and even the NHL ($2.7 billion) generated in 2010.

Can you name another “niche sport” that generated $400 million in revenue? Particularly one that is, say, a decade old?

I wonder how many MLB/NHL/NFL/NBA fans would/do pay $60 a month to watch their favorite sport.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Jun 21, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

bingo

this “hey we’re a niche and no where near mainstream because XYZ comparison to 100+ year old sports league” argument that is popular on BE lately is lame.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just out of curiosity, about how old are you, when did you get into MMA, and have you ever been a fan of a mainstream sport?

by Chromium on Jun 21, 2011 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

12, I got into MMA last year when Kimbo went on TUF, and I like baseball mostly because of my little league team I am on

I am dying to hear what this condescending like of questioning leads to.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was hoping it was a pick up line truthfully

27, Male, Illinois. I like walks on the beach, love the Bears, my first date with my wife(she doesn’t know about my secret. shhh) was a Cubs game, and when I was a kid was a huge Bulls fan. I got into MMA when I was a kid by watching UFC 17 on VHS and Ken Shamrock in the WWE. Then later I discovered Pride in 2005 when my boss ordered the Fedor vs Crocop card. Didn’t become the hardcore nerd I am not until 2007.

I like big strong men that remind me of Marco Ruas. Do you fit that bill Chromium?

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also if I was going to be snarky I would have done it right off the bat.

by Chromium on Jun 21, 2011 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

i see what your saying

personally i grew up in jersey and all the kids in school HAD to pick which sports team they would like in each sport, and we’re in the very unique place that you literally had a choice for each sport: Giants or Jets, Mets or Yankees, Devils or Rangers, Nets or Knicks

with such a prevelence of teams everybody i knew was a fan of all 4 major sports, at least as kids. it also didnt hurt that all those teams were good in the late 90’s (even the Mets)

nowadays though i only care about the giants, baseball sucks, the devils trap killed hockey for me and the nets trade of k-mart drove me away from them. i switched to mma slowly after bonnar-griffin and now love it as fanatically as i love my beloved giants and the other fans i know in my area are exactly the same way

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva

by milk72 on Jun 21, 2011 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

“They have a very sizable hardcore fanbase that adores them and throws lots of money at them but even tennis and golf outdraw them on television. So does NASCAR for that matter.”
The thing with talking about television in regards to MMA/the UFC always seems that things aren’t always being looked at specifically. Fight Nights, TUF Finales, UFC on Versus, and other MMA/UFC events aren’t held with any real regularity, and the days, channels and times that these cards are on vary greatly. Add to the fact that most free events generally don’t even feature top fighters. When talking about television and ratings of the UFC in comparison to other sports or even something like professional wrestling, I don’t think it really says anything. WWE RAW gets better ratings on a weekly basis than a UFC Fight Night, but there are so many factors there that it’s not even a fair comparison or really says that much.

Check out the C&D Channel on YouTube for MMA reviews, predictions, analysis, and other MMA related content.

by chrisbboy82 on Jun 22, 2011 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

The fact that the UFC doesn’t hold free cards with any real regularity is their own decision and part of the reason that they haven’t picked up more casual fans. I’m not saying it’s something inherent to the sport that they aren’t mainstream, or that they should be giving big fights away for free very often. But having free events on a regular schedule, having the occasional major match on free television, those are the sort of things that gain new eyeballs. There’s a trade-off between milking the PPV market (as well as having fans expect to pay for the best fights) and using free events to advertise their PPV product, and I think they’ve gone too far in the direction of the former.

by Chromium on Jun 22, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point. The last free card that had what I felt was a big fight was all the way back at UFC 75 against Dan Henderson. Anderson Silva did fight on a free card, but that was against James Irvin. Having an occasional major fight on free television would be nice, and I think it would be beneficial to the UFC.

Check out the C&D Channel on YouTube for MMA reviews, predictions, analysis, and other MMA related content.

by chrisbboy82 on Jun 22, 2011 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t really relate to the kind of fan you’re talking about. The MMA community I moderate and blog for and used to try to pimp for membership on here, Ninjasplace.com, was in fact mostly the ESPN.com forum community that sought a more user friendly interface and independence. I always have tried to squeeze MMA into the mainstream of sports culture. I was on air on ESPN radio Peoria three different times talking about Strikeforce(the final time an official apology on Monday)

I know “ESPN sports” fans personally that try to keep MMA in their sports consciousness, I also know some MMA fans which like absolutely no other sports. This hurts MMA’s chances how? Because MMA markets itself to both sports fans and those typically outside of the reach of sports hurts the UFC’s staying power?

They have a very sizable hardcore fanbase that adores them and throws lots of money at them but even tennis and golf outdraw them on television. So does NASCAR for that matter.

Tennis and Golf are both very popular sports at the highest level. Golf is a mainstream sport that could easily be characterized as a niche sport since it is somewhat affluent and is associated with negative white stereotypes by various age and cultural demographics. Tennis is similarly demographically isolated from some but very popular with sizable, important demographics. It is hard for the MMA demographic to see that.

In the end, I have no doubt MMA gets there.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 22, 2011 3:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

This hurts MMA’s chances how? Because MMA markets itself to both sports fans and those typically outside of the reach of sports hurts the UFC’s staying power?

The perceived problem is that it is more or less dominated in character and style of promotion to cater to the latter. If you’re a sports fan who’s interested in statistics, fantasy sports, and the like, MMA is a terrible sport for you. There’s two competing sets of statistics and their precise value hasn’t even been determined. There is no MMA equivalent to WHIP or VORP for the stat nerd. We can’t even get striking numbers properly sorted. If you’re a “casual” baseball fan who just understands the rules and watches each game and follows trades and looks at the standings for baseball every day, how frustrating is it that there are no real MMA rankings? Nobody likes the BCS because it lacks a real playoff or series of games to determine a true champ. Now look at Rashad Evans’ situation.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 22, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

For a boxing fan I find it interesting some of the issues are even issues

You know official rankings may hurt the promoters ability to make exciting and marketable fights when they need to and just don’t work in fight sports.

As for stats ; Maybe if the UFC and Strikeforce were to use upstarts similar to compubox they could start to win over some nerds or at least begin to address this supposed problem – the quest to market stat nerds. I’ll email both the UFC and Strikeforce suggesting names like “Compustrike” or even “Fight Metric” and see if they see any validity to it.

Enough snarkyness, MMA fans from all walks like MMA for this reason ;



As long as this keeps happening there will never be a shortage of people showing up. This isn’t cards or bullriding or whatever and isn’t subject to the same forces. People move on there will always be a new crop. The sport can only add fans faster than it loses them.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 22, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is nice empty speak but ultimately meaningless. That flying kick Pettis through couldn’t even get him to sell 2000 tickets in spite of all the coverage and the fact that he was riding a Brock Lesnar fronted TV show’s finale to fight again.

As for your wonderful point about Compustrike and Fightmetric – they have similar but different metrics and systems to determine how fighters perform and there’s a split based on how successful promoters think either system works for them. Boxing has Compubox but very few people really care about Compubox or boxing statistics, which is another reason why it doesn’t appeal as strongly to stick and ball fans today as it did to sports fans of yesteryear and is a niche sport in the present era. Not sure what point you were looking to make there other than reinforce what I said.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 22, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

empty speak?

Let us not forget your sub premise here is that not having enough stats to garner interest from decrepit baseball stat geeks is what will keep MMA a niche sport while we throw the term “empty speak” around.

Is that like, an opinion you made up while you typed?

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 22, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its one of many examples of how I’d argue that MMA isn’t being pushed towards traditional sports fans, which is exactly what I said. You seem to want to argue that all traditional fans watch the the Ultimate Highlight Reel that shows Sundays on Sportscenter. It takes a lot more than the occasional flashy kick to grow the sport. If that were the case, the UFC would be selling a lot more tickets right now and a lot more PPVs than it has been of recent events.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 23, 2011 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sports fans like what they're told

“occasional flashly kicks” is not what will get it over and that isn’t what I want to argue. Get a lid on your strawman issue, no offense. MMA is easy enough to sell on its own merit that if ESPN started broadcasting it or had a real financial interest in covering it, it would get the sport over in the mainstream sports consciousness easily. And I think the UFC will get to that point.

People want something new over time and generations find things to make their own and I think MMA will be a small cultural flagpole for the younger generations in our society.

I share the view that the UFC has just gotten started with this thing.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 23, 2011 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

If sports fans liked what they were told, ESPN’s promotion of NASCAR would have prevented ratings from going down every year from 2005 to 2010 and the UFC’s TV ratings wouldn’t have peaked 3-4 years ago.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 23, 2011 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're doing two things here that you shouldn't

1. Over estimating the consumer’s free will.

2. Under estimating the marketability of this type of sporting violence.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 23, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re still talking about a sport that doesn’t even approach WWE numbers on television and is so violent you can’t have it on in polite company.

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 23, 2011 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

You've seen the changes.

Do you really think this is as big as it gets? Look how long it took some of the other sports to climb to the top. MMA has a big head start and has only been on TV since 2005. It doesn’t seem realistic that within five years the UFC got as big as it ever could.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 23, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Subo: this is exactly what makes it a “niche sport.” “Niche” does not mean small or unpopular. The UFC is a niche sport because the vast majority of their fans are hardcore fans. Proportionately few are casuals, and there is not a huge crossover with mainstream sports the way football fans are often fans of basketball, baseball, and even hockey. Also I don’t think they’ve ever held an event that’s had more than 5 million viewers domestically no matter how you slice it.

This doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a fad. NASCAR’s situation isn’t entire dissimilar (financial model aside), and they aren’t going anywhere.

by Chromium on Jun 21, 2011 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rampage/Hendo did more than 5 million viewers.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Jun 21, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

They averaged 4.7 million...

and this was actually the exact event I was thinking of when I wrote that.

However, it seem their peak quarter-hour was 5.93 million, at least according to Wikipedia. So my bad, the UFC has never exceeded 6 million viewers domestically. I still stand by my point.

by Chromium on Jun 21, 2011 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder if the $60 payment almost argues that it's a niche populated by hardcore fans

The opposite of this is mainstream sports where they are on the biggest networks and provided for free using the “mainstream” model of free to air with advertising to generate revenues.

by Arca MMA on Jun 22, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

it doesn’t because the UFC makes most of it’s money from people that pay less than 60 bucks per event because they have friends or go to bars.

by Phildo on Jun 22, 2011 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

But that goes to nottheface’s argument that MMA may be a social trend and impetus for a party more than a sport people actively follow or care about. Either way, the UFC doesn’t really win more fans by running PPVs.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 23, 2011 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I for one

feel MMA or “UFC” is reaching it’s limit. Unless some new business model can come into play, doing away with the huge reliance on PPV for it’s main revenue source, then I don’t see it getting any bigger than it is and probably starting to drop off in a few years (or has already), at least in North America. I don’t have a bunch of data to support my thoughts, it is just that, my thoughts.

I realized the other day that I have been following avidly for about 8 or more years now and recently found myself not feeling the urgency to catch every card or show offered. As the number of shows have increased per year, the importance of events has wained for me. Plus, I cannot afford to spend $1500 a year to catch every PPV. I realize that there is this whole “world wide potential” thing, but all they can do is take this business model that has succeeded in N.A. and then apply it to other locations, meanwhile fizzling out in the markets it succeeds in now. The lifespan of the sport will never compare to the big 3 (or 4 if you count hockey, even though I know they are hurting) because the whole model is flawed and as mentioned above the main draws cannot or won’t compete more than 3 times a year. Plus, as so many have mentioned on the site, the great athletes will continue to go where there is more money, less risk, pensions, and health insurance. We’ll continue to have our super-athletes but where do most come from? Wrestling, BJJ, or Kickboxing- what the hell else can a collegiate wrestler do after college (or the Olympics if lucky enough) but get a real job?

Without a regular “season” supported through a television deal with a major network (not G4, sorry G4 fans), an influx of truly great athletes, smarter training (less injuries postponing fights), better post career care, and perhaps have a few “super cards” on PPV a year, I don’t know how much longer the growth can last, and the longevity and popularity will only be known over time.

*I am not an ass, I love the sport, would train if I could, and hope to see it do well, I am just pessimistic by nature, my wife loves it, lol. This is also just off the head stuff, not really thought out, but great posts and good article.

by wmuk on Jun 21, 2011 4:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Take boxing for example

Back in the day it was HUGE. Even in the 70s boxing had a huge following. Then sometime after that is started to decline.
Some would argue that is because there were too many organizations, too much record padding, and the best of the best didn’t fight each other. While MMa has different challenges that boxes doesn’t, it is clear that (right now at least) MMA has only 1 relevant organization, the records are legit, and arguably, the best are likely to fight each other.
So what was it that boxing had back in the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s that MMA lacks now? Huge stars like Ali, Frasier, and Robinson? Mainstream acceptance?

Opulence, I has it.

by Psychic Octopus on Jun 21, 2011 4:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Boxing was considered an outlaw sport up until the 1920s and was horribly unpopular among lawmakers. A single individual (Dempsey) elevated it to mainstream status and it stayed there as one of the most popular sports for decades after. Its reduction in status came not with mob involvement, thrown fights, or split titles, because it had all of those things in its heyday. They might be contributing factors, but they were minor ones. There’s a whole host of equally important contributing factors – social backgrounds of boxers changed in the US, suburban flight, boxing leaving network TV for cable and PPV, the change in perception to what became the unacceptable nature of ring death, boxing being kicked out of MSG for years, boxing events moving to casinos from local arenas, the shift in amateur rules, the opening of the Iron Curtain; all those things had an effect on the sport that in the US could certainly be considered potentially harmful. You could write a book about it if you wanted to.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 21, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

ppv is what killed it for me

my dad stopped watching when he needed to pay for every single event, hence I and very few of my generation (born in the late 80s early 90s) “grew up” on boxing like many generations had previously

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva

by milk72 on Jun 21, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the info

As you can probably guess I don’t know much about boxing and these are all interesting factors that came into play. Like Milk, i grew up in the 90s during boxings decline and MMA’s rise. I probably would have loved it if I was alive during its golden age, it always felt kind of inaccessible to me.

Opulence, I has it.

by Psychic Octopus on Jun 21, 2011 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great stuff

Were you the one that was giving me information about Ali when I mentioned that my friend felt that the Rock (Dwayne Johnson) would be a bigger icon than Ali?

Check out the C&D Channel on YouTube for MMA reviews, predictions, analysis, and other MMA related content.

by chrisbboy82 on Jun 22, 2011 3:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m sure it’s been said before but your friend sounds like an idiot. One could at least make an argument that Ali is the most famous athlete ever, and he was also a notable figure during the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s. I love the Rock and all but that’s just straight up ignorant.

by Chromium on Jun 22, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Generally agree.

But a lot of variables at play. For instance, here’s a conundrum: the sport would undoubtedly benefit if ESPN decided to run MMA Live at a better time that 1:00 in the fucking AM. But at what point does it behoove ESPN to do so?

Tune every heart and every voice,
Bid every care withdraw;
Let all with one accord rejoice,
In praise of Old Nassau.
In praise of Old Nassau we sing,
Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!
Our hearts will give while we shall live,
Three cheers for Old Nassau.

by Anthony Pace on Jun 21, 2011 5:52 PM EDT reply actions  

when they air live events

espn promotes sports shown on espn, look at how the coverage for hockey has lessened when they lost that deal.

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva

by milk72 on Jun 21, 2011 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

that's a good point

Tune every heart and every voice,
Bid every care withdraw;
Let all with one accord rejoice,
In praise of Old Nassau.
In praise of Old Nassau we sing,
Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!
Our hearts will give while we shall live,
Three cheers for Old Nassau.

by Anthony Pace on Jun 22, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

The book on ESPN that just came out basically admits they buried NHL coverage when they left the network.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 22, 2011 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

OUTSTANDING.

Coming to you from Titletown, USA

by Austin Martin on Jun 21, 2011 6:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Nice read

Huge bummer, but nice read.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

by Dave Strummer on Jun 21, 2011 8:28 PM EDT reply actions  

PBR puts lots of butts in seats too. Still a niche sport.

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 21, 2011 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

PBR is a niche sport for sure

yo last I looked bullriding apparel doesn’t clad the majority of 20 year old males on college parties, nor does bullriding have the appeal MMA does to the bulk of the entertainment industry.

MMA is in a state of transition. We are as mainstream as humanly possible for something that wasn’t even legal in most states still when my fourth grader was born.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

bull riding doesnt pack bars too once a month

every bar ive been to that shows a ufc ppv is packed to the gills especially with casual fans who dont normally follow the sport

"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva

by milk72 on Jun 21, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

10000<50000
PUEBLO, Colo. (March 31, 2009) – The Professional Bull Riders, Inc. (PBR) are thrilled to announce that record-breaking attendance numbers were set this at this past weekend’s Built Ford Tough Series (BFTS) event in Albuquerque, N.M. The Sandia Resort & Casino presents the Ty Murray Invitational, stop #16 on the prestigious tour, was held on March 27-29 at University of New Mexico’s "The Pit," a brand-new venue to the PBR.

Not only did attendance numbers soar over 11,000 people a day, but all three performances were sold-out including Saturday night where 1,000 standing-room only tickets were sold. The weekend also saw attendance numbers for LIVE events on the BFTS tour increase from last week’s number of 18% to 20.6% compared to numbers in 2008.

Kind of old numbers if you compare MMA attendance from a few years ago, but still brings the point home.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jonathan, what say you to these numbers?

What the UFC expects to do is what shatters PBR records. What MLB expects to do(in good markets, not others, where the attendance is LOWER than UFC events) shatters UFC records. I would say we’re closer to MLB than PBR on the scale at this point. We’re not so much a niche now. Not like we were five years ago. We’re only trending up. Here to stay.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you consider the WWE or pro boxing niche or not. I do, Sure, they are profitable and have huge fanbases, but in now way are they part of collective, sports going public life. (and for that matter, in the US, hockey is niche)

Now, what do you say when the WWE has total revenues of close to $500 million in 2010, almost $100 million more than the UFC, and has so over the last decade? That it has regularly filled stadium for its major events year-after-year?
Or that Pacquiao has drown equally impressive crowds as UFC 129, and that boxing will most likely hold all four of the top selling ppv events by the end of the year? Because when you look at those comparisons they hold up quit favorably to the UFC and yet no one is claiming that they are major sports or are rewriting the sports’ or entertainment landscape.

by John Nash on Jun 21, 2011 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's because professional wrestling is not a sport.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Jun 21, 2011 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

boxing in general is now somewhat of a niche but when it captures the interest it is instantly mainstream

The WWE is mainstream and isn’t a sport. It is a mainstream form of entertainment though. I don’t know where this idea that “Not NFL” means “Not mainstream” came from…

and this is what makes the UFC’s position so favorable, as in the end it is an amalgam of pro wrestling and boxing. Two mainstream things it can and already has piggy backed on into relevance

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 21, 2011 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

PBR is just an example. Look up rodeo numbers. Staggering. Comparing UFC attendance to MLB is plain goofy. Do you realize that baseball attracted more than 73 million fans in each of the last two years?

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 22, 2011 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

That makes me sad for those people.

Bob Sapp vs. Rodrigo Nogueira Bob "The Beast" Sapp is 400 pounds, and if 300 pounds of it aren’t pure steroids, then someone has got to be fucking kidding. -SeanBaby

by Chris Hall on Jun 22, 2011 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Here is the only comparison ; The UFC drew 55,000 fans. Baseball draws that, not PBR.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 22, 2011 3:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

You are aware that on February 20th of last year that the PBR drew 46,500 fans in one day to Dallas Cowboys Stadium? or that they sold out Madison Garden – a place the UFC can’t even hold shows – three nights in row this year?

by John Nash on Jun 22, 2011 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ithe UFC would sell that out immediately and everyone knows it.

PBR tickets ran what for that gate? Also, wasn’t that kind of more to do with OMG Rodeo at brand new Jerryland! in Texas factor? I think the UFC’s number is a lot more solid after looking at this a bit, not that information on this rodeo thing has been the easiest to find. The UFC is popular in many more markets as well. The UFC is as much niche as it is a lower tier mainstream sport. I’ll coin the term “Niche Mainstream” right the fuck now to sound smart and end this debate.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 22, 2011 3:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe they do. Maybe they don’t depending on the card? Weren’t they supposed to sell out Boston and Vancouver immediately too in recent memory?

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 22, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Vancouver not selling out in the middle of the finals is an issue?

This city blew itself up over Hockey remember…

You talking about 118? They did 14k plus and the capacity for Hockey is only 17k so I don’t know what the issue is there.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 22, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

When tickets went on sale, no one was thinking they’d be in the finals or was waiting a few months to see if they would be. When Lesnar dropped of the card, interest further dropped off a cliff in terms of sales. We had articles about this written everywhere. As for the Boston show, there was heavy papering in the last couple days leading up to it along with stuff like the Boston Herald running “Dana White Shocked at UFC 118 ticket sales”.

Point is that the success in Toronto doesn’t automatically mean perfect success everywhere else. I got word from a friend of mine in Vegas that they aren’t even putting Cruz or Faber on the billboards now for the next UFC: instead most all of them are highlighting Ortiz and Leben.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 22, 2011 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Point is that the success in Toronto doesn’t automatically mean perfect success everywhere else

So what is the point of this point? Find where I said they’ll enjoy perfect success everywhere.

My point is the UFC is popular in many more markets than niches like rodeo and has a tremendous amount of upside sports like that or poker(I use the term sport loosely for professional animal cruelty and texas hold em) don’t have and never will.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 22, 2011 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your argument is that they will absolutely sell out MSG because they sold out Toronto and that more people want to see MMA in NYC. If that were true, then why hasn’t the UFC looked at an open air stadium show in the Meadowlands or increased the number of Newark and Atlantic City dates to take advantage of that substantial NYC fanbase?

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 23, 2011 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

because those events are not "UFC at Madison Square Garden!"

and seriously, you now contend because the UFC has not sought an open air show at an NFL stadium that MSG won’t sell out? I never said there was an above average fanbase in NYC. I think that 20,000 UFC tickets would not be hard to sell with the UFC’s average fanbase in a city as big as NYC. I like to think of the sport as mainstream now with as well, mainstream the sport seems to be nowdays, but I think if UFC fans are still just a niche group, then it is a pretty big niche.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 23, 2011 3:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

As long as MMA’s popularity is measured in terms of revenue, people will believe it’s headed for “major sport” status. With massive ticket prices and the main UFC cards being PPV, even a moderate fan base creates the impression of a sport on the rise. Zuffa has a profitable marketing model for now, but with the string of lackluster events, canceled main event matchups, propping up has-beens like Ortiz, putting ludicrous non-MMA guys like James Toney in the cage, etc., eventually the market resistance to shelling out for yet another PPV might begin to be seen. Zuffa’s marketing couldn’t sell out the Strikeforce card last week. The majority of their live events don’t sell very many tickets for once-a-year visits to large cities, while the lowest average attendance for an NHL franchise is over 11,000..and that’s over the course of 41 home games. A busy fighter in UFC/Strikeforce might fight 3 times a year, so they count on fans identifying with and following multiple fighters. Sorry, if you’re thinking the 18 – 34 demographic has that kind of attention span you haven’t noticed the self-absorbed social media addicts who can’t even bother to look you in the eye during a conversation lest they be distracted from yet another meaningless incoming text message.

Zuffa will continue to make money, and the sport as a whole might gain a relatively stable audience size, but challenging the entrenched sports for the consumers’ viewing commitment? I’d sooner bet on lacrosse.

.....

by Scabby Knuckle on Jun 21, 2011 10:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Some good points about, particularly the NHL example, but 1) UFC tickets are a lot more expensive than NHL tickets, and 2)

 bq. I’d sooner bet on lacrosse.

Um, you can’t be serious. Professional lacrosse has been tried. Repeatedly. The NLL has been doing surprisingly good attendance numbers but that’s because tickets are cheap. As far as I can tell they have yet to make a profit, and the median player makes about $20,000 a year and needs a day job. Yes, there are UFC fighters who make even less, but lacrosse has a hell of a lot more to prove than MMA right now as far as its financial viability. They are roughly an order of magnitude below the UFC right now in terms of both revenue and public awareness.

by Chromium on Jun 22, 2011 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't know anything about your lacrosse points

But it should be mentioned that hockey teams have 41 games in the same city each season. UFC fights only happen once every couple of years in a lot of regions.

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by Neil Manich on Jun 23, 2011 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I rec’d this post because you typed an awful lot of words and I feel like you put in lots of effort.

Sig betting against The-gentle-way is like playing Russian Roulette with a semi-automatic weapon. The only thing he knows more about than fighting is pleasing women, and my girlfriend is thankful for that.

by Earl Montclair on Jun 22, 2011 2:28 AM EDT reply actions  

Bigger star: Nadal or GSP?

Federer or Brock?

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by Neil Manich on Jun 23, 2011 12:21 AM EDT reply actions  

Nadal and Federer. Especially if you’re talking worldwide.

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

by FRANKIE on Jun 23, 2011 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

the tennis guys by a mile

What is the point though?

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 23, 2011 3:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention (though I haven't read all the comments)

Is the new concussion/CTE thing that the NFL is worrying about. I heard a BS Report on this subject with Chris Nowinski, and one thing they mentioned is that Malcolm Gladwell—not that I take him all that seriously—thinks that there won’t be an NFL in 30 years, in large part because of parental fears about CTE and concussions. I think that’s probably an overstatement, but it wouldn’t shock me if NFL loses its position on top of the perch of all sports, mainly because parents won’t want their kids taking head trauma that has long-term effects on their lives. (This will be exacerbated if we come up with tools that can instantly tell how much damage a person has suffered to their brain after a big hit.) Anyway, if there’s anything to this, then this might present another reason to think that there’s an upper limit to the popularity of/quality of athlete that goes into MMA.

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by PlantingaFan on Jun 23, 2011 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder what kind of benefit (measured by increase in fans) MMA would have if they did something like a one time deal with ESPN to air a mega fight card like Anderson Silva vs Georges St. Pierre. The UFC would take a hit in the short run in PPV revenue, but I wonder what the long-term benefits in fans created would be. UFC 100 gave a nice bump in fans and that was on PPV. This is just hypothetical and has no chance of happening.

I’d think if the UFC ever wants to approach the NFL, MLB, NBA, or NHL in terms of popularity, they have to ditch the PPV model. A majority of traditional sport fans will not go for paying for a PPV every month. Its just too expensive. I’ll do it, but I’m already a fan. Someone who has a chance of getting into the sport can’t just flip the tv station and experiment with it, they have to fork over money to experience it, and that will deter a shitload of people. I just don’t see PPV being the model that brings us to daily coverage on ESPN along with every other sport. I’d like to see a couple hours worth a day, but it isn’t worth it for ESPN at the moment. I guess we’ll have to wait and see, and time will tell.

"I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to."- Albert Einstein

by Tim Bernier on Jun 23, 2011 3:10 AM EDT reply actions  

this

they’re looking at the next level now with the talks with NBC and G4.

It is gonna happen. And sooner than we realize.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 23, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I remember Dana saying, semi recently, that PPV is still going to be the main model, despite having shows on network television because that’s where a majority of the money was. I’m hoping it changes, but I’m not optimistic. I’d love for a monthly NBC a couple years down the line. But this network deal sounds like it’ll be something like four cards a year or something. Gotta start somewhere.

"I have reached an age when, if someone tells me to wear socks, I don't have to."- Albert Einstein

by Tim Bernier on Jun 23, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

it will change when the money is right. Guesstimate how much a ufc PPV that “bombs” does, that is a lot more than it appears any network has been willing to pay so far. That problem is magnified if you start talking about a PPV card that would attract the type of numbers to make a network happy.

To make the money right, the networks have to open the checkbook, or people have to stop buying ppvs. Probably some combination of the 2.

by Phildo on Jun 23, 2011 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with this.

I think the moves the UFC are making now are part of a long term exit strategy off PPV that may be five years or better away. That is still closer than most realize.

Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.

by Urijah Bieber on Jun 23, 2011 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good write up, I think the major thing that may stop the UFC from the next level is the "stalling"

I post on a big forum(IGN) and the people who don’t like MMA all dislike it for the same reason. Because of all the “hugging.” I’m not saying they need to eliminate the ground game, but in boxing they break up the clinch pretty quickly for a reason. Stuff like wall and stall is simply boring. It may be too late for the people who have already seen it and are turned off by the “hugging” but if they do get a network deal they may be exposed to people giving the sport a shot for the first time and if we end up with a bunch of “wall and stall” or LNP fights then it could turn off a big group of new fans.

by HaterSlayer on Jun 23, 2011 6:34 AM EDT reply actions  

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