Strikeforce Results: FightMetric Report for Alistair Overeem vs. Fabricio Werdum
My friend turned to me after the final bell and said, "This is going to be close." I felt confident the judges would award last night's Strikeforce main event to Alistair Overeem, though I also expected the numbers to show Werdum with the advantage in volume striking. Werdum was hurt by his flopping and butt-scooting, not only because it's a passive action that looks bad in judges' eyes, but many of his flops coincided with Overeem punches, garnering a similar reaction as NBA and soccer players diving for fouls, only in reverse.
So, it did not shock me when Jimmy Lennon Jr. announced Alistair Overeem the winner of a unanimous decision, though I was surprised two judges scored every round for the Dutchman.
FightMetric, however, tells a different story:
- The effectiveness scores play out for Werdum 204-174, and the extrapolated ten-point must scoring also favors Werdum 29-28.
- As expected, the punching volume favors Werdum as well. He outlanded Overeem in every category, with the exception of body shots: 62-46 total strikes, 43-32 significant strikes, 51-31 head strikes.
- Overeem dominated the grappling by shutting Werdum down. Werdum went 1-12 in his takedowns, with Overeem standing up out of guard whenever Werdum successfully pulled the fight to the floor. FightMetric does credit Werdum for his kneebar attempt at the end of the fight.
- Related, FightMetric notes "Overeem is not credited with successful takedowns because a takedown requires that the attempting fighter establish a ground-based advantageous position."
- While all three rounds are contentious, the third was the closest round of the fight. The significant strike disparity is thin, 14-10 in Werdum's favor, but he did outland Overeem 24-16 overall. On the grappling side, Overeem fended off both of Werdum's takedowns, and, as noted, FightMetric credited Werdum for his kneebar attempt as time expired.
I scored the fight 29-28 myself, giving Werdum the first round. As Brent Brookhouse noted today, and as I've long argued, you can't look at fight stats and decide the winner. You have to take context into account.
Now, I'm not saying Overeem unequivocally won last night. There's a strong case that can be made in Werdum's favor. (There's also a strong case for a draw.) In a vacuum, without any personal attachment to either fighter, maybe I score it in Werdum's favor as well.
[Update] I spoke with Rami Genauer of FightMetric, and asked him for his thoughts on the bout:
The Overeem fight was weird if you consider the Unified Rules. I think striking was a wash because Werdum clearly landed more, but Overeem landed better. Grappling was a wash because Werdum didn't really do anything effective and neither did Overeem. I think you could make the case for aggression for either fighter or neither fighter. Flopping to your back isn't aggression, but you could make the case that pulling guard is if you can threaten off your back. And "cage control" doesn't really favor either guy. I think the only round I'm confident in is Round 2 going to Overeem, so that makes me lean toward him. But using the ten point must system, I think you could easily make the case for either fighter or a draw. Consider this a good piece of evidence for those that favor more five round fights, despite how gassed both guys looked.
The system picking Werdum is not surprising because it doesn't deal with aggression and doesn't care how many times you miss takedowns and flop to your back. Werdum landed more; that's a fact and not controversial to anyone watching both fighters. So the quantitative evidence is clear. That a qualitative assessment by most people would lead you to believe (as I do) that Overeem landed better is a good reason why judging is a qualitative art and not a quantitative science.
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FINALLY someone comes to their senses and gives Werdum the first
I need to see some justification for people giving Overeem that round.
Neither fighter landed really damaging strikes, but 17-7 in significant strikes is a huge advantage for Werdum, as is 8-4 in head strikes. Werdum was the one pushing the pace on the feet, too (in the first).
by paythefighters on Jun 19, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing is, when you do the shit Werdum does , you lose a lot of points in people minds. Also everytime Overeem punched him and he flopped it should be a knockdown I mean seriously Werdum? But what do we really expect Werdum to just let Overeem knock him out?
by p123 on Jun 19, 2011 5:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thats why its called MMA
It’s not a fucking BJJ tourney. If Werdum isn’t gonna respect the point of MMA then he definitely doesn’t deserve to win the fight.
by SpinningFistback on Jun 19, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. I don’t understand how Werdum doesn’t get points deducted for that atrocity. If I was the ref Werdum would have been deducted probably 4 points. After one he would have stopped. The refs fault. You are stalling, it Anderson can get warned for running away then Werdum should to for refusing to engage. It’s ridiculous.
by p123 on Jun 19, 2011 6:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Werdum wasn't refusing to engage, Overeem was.
If you want to engage a backpedalling Silva or Starnes, you can’t. If you want to engage Werdum or Leites, there’s nothing stopping you except fear.
Adding to this is that Werdum initiated almost every exchange on the feet in the first and third.
by paythefighters on Jun 20, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I´m sorry but...
… how is trying to pull guard not respecting “the point of MMA”? People act like a double leg blast is the only aceptable way of getting the fight to the ground. The problem is that he was not able to get a hold of Overeem and drag him down, but he was trying. How is that less OK than Overeem standing up and walking away everytime Werdum pulled him to guard? That was Overeem avoiding the fight. But I guess some people see the ground game as a necessary evil.
At first watch, I had it for Overeem, but I will rewatch it, bacause it was alot closer than people seem to think. Alot closer.
"I´ve seen the future of the whole fucking thing and it´s Big Man Clarence Clemons!"
- Bruce Springsteen
The world became a less amazing place on June 18 2011, with the death of Clarence Clemons. R.I.P. Big Man, you will be sorely missed.
Some people don´t like the saxophone, but if you can´t rock to the Jungleland solo, you are dead inside!
questions
1. how disappointing was alistairs performance
2. WTF did zuffa buy/ how smart is coker
3. How happy are ufc heavyweights
4. when do we get the blood test results
5. can we keep the mic away from josh please
I think Barnett comes out the big winner here, and I’m excited to seeing who the true number 1 HW in the world will be around next year hopefully. A lot of exciting stuff at HW nowadays.
by p123 on Jun 19, 2011 5:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
True
I just want Barnett to step in the UFC and fight one fighter…
Frank Mir, to show him his BJJ/ Grappling isn’t as great as he says it is.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Jun 19, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Barnett is a true beast. That kind of skill set in a man that big is scary. I think I’d favor him over Frank definitely. Barnett has a good chance to win this whole tourney and beat a guy like JDS for the belt. Hell I think Barnett beats Fedor if that fight went down realistically. HW is exciting !
by p123 on Jun 19, 2011 5:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Barnett has really great skills and uses his great game plans to maximize is ability to finish his fights.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Jun 19, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
making the price go up!
Let the fighters fight, let the referees ref, but dear God, don't let the judges judge.
by halitosis on Jun 19, 2011 8:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
People keep saying
how successful Werdum was on the feet yet everytime Overeem hit him he flopped to his butt. Sure, he wanted to get to the ground, but a lot of those flops where cause Overeem hit him really hard. Those strikes should be worth much much more than Werdum’s weak ones.
Plus Overeem had slams and trips. He had “octagon control” which judges love. Thought it was one sided in my opinion. Was closer than I would have liked, but still one sided.
by Tats16 on Jun 19, 2011 2:04 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
not really
if he were hit hard there would be a delay in processing between the punch and the takedown ( there was none)
Also if verdum were stunned y didnt alistair capitalize
it wasnt so much him getting stunned
As it was his fear of Alistair’s power. He wasn’t really frazzled, more of “oh shit, this guy just punched me really hard.”
Let the fighters fight, let the referees ref, but dear God, don't let the judges judge.
by halitosis on Jun 19, 2011 8:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Overeem’s “significant” strikes were much more significant than Werdum’s
Overeem’s slams and trips should count for something as well. Especially sense one of them seemed to hurt Werdum’s knee.
by dbcb on Jun 19, 2011 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Being a BJJ black belt himself
I really hope Silva doesn’t spend his fight with Overeem flopping to his ass every 10 seconds.
doubt that will happen
he’s got enough range to space out the standup game, and he appears stronger than Werdum. i don’t think he’ll go for such a weak ass strategy.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 19, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
No way
Not after the uproar from this fight and Silva has always been a game, aggressive fighter.
by Pantherhare on Jun 19, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
One of the times I think Fightmetric is wrong
but honest that site is more accurate than the actual MMA judges most of the time.
aka BuckeyedBear34
Agreed Fight Metrics first time being wrong. But realisically it the ref did his job this wouldn’t be an issue. You can’t refuse to engage that’s ridiculous this is the fucking fight game are you serious? Werdum will pay for this bullshit good luck with that new contract lol.
by p123 on Jun 19, 2011 6:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Based on the kneebar attempt alone, I give the fight to Werdum. It should be how it ends… not how it starts. Because in reality, how it ends is the only thing that matters.
With a sub attempt that was going nowhere?
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
by toxic on Jun 19, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, because he was also going “Grrrrrr” and making other scary sounds that you probably couldn’t hear, what with all the overjoyed fans cheering and such.
.....
by Scabby Knuckle on Jun 19, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
A breakthrough!
Let the fighters fight, let the referees ref, but dear God, don't let the judges judge.
by halitosis on Jun 19, 2011 8:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Werdum lands some sloppy jabs and some headkicks that are blocked and all of a sudden he "Outstuck" Reem?
I don’t think so.
Learn JiuJitsu.
by RolloTomasi on Jun 19, 2011 2:18 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
No, he "outstruck"
Alistair because he landed more strikes, many of which were straight right hands, and some solid knees. I don’t agree with the term “outstruck”, but it’s silly to characterize Werdum’s effectiveness as “sloppy jabs, and blocked headkicks” when this clearly wasn’t the case.
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by David Castillo on Jun 19, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Werdum "Outstriking" Overeem


Learn JiuJitsu.
by RolloTomasi on Jun 19, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
great way to be selective with your gifs
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
by Noah'sArk on Jun 19, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Did you read my post?
Or are you just being a gif-happy idiot again?



Like I said, I don’t think Werdum “outstruck” Overeem, but these were exchanges where Werdum initiated, and in these exchanges, Werdum was landing shots: this is affective offense no matter how you slice it, and just like it looks bad for Werdum to flop and start buttscotting, it looks bad for Overeem to keep backing up. I really don’t even know what part of my statement you’re taking issue with other than to be a dumbass.
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by David Castillo on Jun 19, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
No need to call names.
I will never say Werdum outstruck Overeem. He landed more, but Reem was looking to stuff at all costs, when that happens your striking D suffers.
Learn JiuJitsu.
He did stuff the takedowns
but he didn’t do anything much like try to KTFO Werdum. IMO Werdum should have gotten it due to aggressiveness and “outlanding” Overeem.
by nevergoasstomouth on Jun 19, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
When you back straight up with your hands waving wildly in front of your head
your striking D also suffers.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
by lowellthehammer on Jun 19, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yea
that was pretty weird. Was that sequence after Werdum landed that monster knee? I can’t remember.
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by David Castillo on Jun 19, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
He was backing straight up pretty much any time Werdum landed on him.
But if you’re talking about the gif, I think he just got caught off balance when Werdum rushed in.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
by lowellthehammer on Jun 19, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt this knee merely 'tickled'

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by David Castillo on Jun 19, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
If it lands, it doesn't land with much impact.
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
by lowellthehammer on Jun 19, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’m not 100% if it really lands to TBH, it just looks like there is an impact.
Boys becoming men...Men becoming wolves
He glanced top of his chin with a knee cap. It wasn’t a skull crusher by any means, but if Overeem had a goatee, it probably would be unkempt.
".He still has a ground game that seems heavily dependent on lying still and hoping that his opponent won't notice his very kimura-able arm..."
by dancingChicken on Jun 20, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
It definitely lands
but it looks like Alistair catches more shin than knee, I think.
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by David Castillo on Jun 19, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
The knee clearly missed.
If it had connected, like knee-to-underchin Overeems head would have snapped back. It does’t even move here.
"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."
by Shotokanman on Jun 19, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I am so confused
How video evidence of a knee landing can result in “the knee clearly missed” commentary.
I mean … I don’t know how else to say this, but you do understand that when a strike “misses” it “hits nothing”?
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm doing that right now
Seriously though, “not landing hard” or “not a seriously effective strike” or “didn’t do damage” is all acceptable, but … “it didn’t land”?
I’m no fighting expert, but I am a master of the technique called “not landing strikes”, and that isn’t it.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Because it's not video evidence of a knee landing clean.
The knee clearly missed. The shin did make some sliding contact, causing his head to be pushed backwards.
Had the Knee landed clean, under the chin, with the top part of the knee making stiff contact rather than the shin sliding along the front of it, Overeem’s head would have snapped back.
So, yea. the knee missed. The sloppy shin strike kind of landed, though.
"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."
Sorry
That is “video evidence of a knee landing clean”. Perhaps the actual kneecap does not land clearly, but contact with the shin still dictates a knee strike “landing”.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
So a strike wherein no part of the knee makes contact with the opponent
constitutes a Knee Strike landing clean.
Ok. I think I got it now…
"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."
Yes
You really think all of the KOs by knees we’ve seen over the years that happened with the shin weren’t really “knee strikes” because the kneecap didn’t make contact?
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
No. Technically those would be kicks.
For example when GSP is lighting Fitch up with the hands, Fitch bobs and GSP throws the knee, which ends up catching Fitch full on in the nose. Not a knee strike.
"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."
This is not a knee landing?

"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you fucking serious?
No this is not a knee landing, Alistair flew right over his fucking head man.
His knee landed, on the CAGE.
"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."
So everyone is wrong
Except you and those should all be called “flying shin strikes” now?
A guy throws a knee in the clinch and his shin makes full contact, but we don’t call that a knee anymore?
Are YOU fucking serious?
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn son
For the record, I do apologize to the mods for name calling, but posting gifs for the sake of posting them just to back up a tenuous argument is lame.[/RoganApology] As for the current argument, I honestly can’t believe this has turned into an argument, but I think we’re splitting hairs. Werdum threw a knee, landing the strike with a portion of his shin, similar to how we might still register a punch as landing, despite it landing around the thumb area ala Fedor and Igor’s ridge hand strikes.
Follow me at Head Kick Legend
by David Castillo on Jun 19, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it's called a Flying Knee that missed.
What I’ve been saying the whole time.
"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."
What you asked was "Is this not a knee landing"
when the Knee clearly flys over Thompson’s head.
Do you understand what “Landing” means? It’s when you actually make contact with the other fighter.
"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."
I slo-mo'd the exact knee 20x
While doing a HL reel for Alistair the other day.
This is a weird debate. I’m saying, for the purpose of a "did a strike land?" or "did a strike miss?", a knee that lands with the shin (not the knee) is still a strike that lands, and you still call it a knee.
You throw a lot of knees and kicks in MT in a manner in which it is still beneficial if you don’t land directly because another part of the leg will.
I can’t remember who it was, I think Solomon Hutcherson’s loss on TUF, but a knee was thrown that missed, but the thrower followed through and the shin connected for a KO.
There have also been instances where a chambered kick has been thrown that lands early, but the knee actually makes contact before the follow through.
Thus the term “knee kick” in MT.
Overall, when posting a gif and then discussing whether or not a strike lands, I think it’s quite relative to argue a post that simply says "that knee clearly missed".
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 20, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
This is a really weird picture to try to back up your argument
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jun 23, 2011 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
he had reem rocked im
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
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by the-gentle-way on Jun 19, 2011 3:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
it seems
like he did a few times
i think some people are reem fans and just don’t want to admit he kind of look like crap out there.
HE DIDNT LOOK LIKE CRAP ITS ALL WERDUMS FAULT FOR BEING LAME
Cooper! Get two coffins. Wait...better make it three.
by lowellthehammer on Jun 19, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
he had reem rocked in the second with a knee,
That is when Werdum gassed and hurt his knee. I won a sig bet picking Reem, but I think Werdum won. He out landed in all categories and almost got a heel hook and a knee bar. I am not sure what category Reem won in. Pulling guard less perhaps?
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jun 19, 2011 3:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
he didnt rock shit.
this is what being rocked looks like


by NastyGuido on Jun 19, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
thats KOed
Rocked is slightly dizzy, movement is a little off.
I am a huge Reem fan. I picked him to win. I just don’t think he did.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jun 19, 2011 3:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
i looked for Overeem Hari 2 but no gifs.
the 1st one was rocked and the 2nd was the ko. but way diff from that knee that DIDNT land. you can tell someone is rocked by posture change and what not. i guess well agree to disagree but that knee didnt land and surely Overeem was not rocked in anyway.
anyone who thinks you can win a fight by throwing uneffective strikes and falling over without being hit is stupid. same shit with Silva v Maia/Leites. everyones hating on the p4p champ when fools flop to the ground when he trys to engage in the fight. although the shit he did in the 4th/5th round was out of line
umm i hate to use the word retarted
but youre retarted spectaa. if you know anything about beening hit/rocked you would know thats not what happened. Overeem shruged him off right before that knee woulda hit. Werdum needs to work on his MT clinch and he needs control Overeems body the whole time while throwing a knee. not letting go as you throw it
Werdum’s feet were to far out in front of himself, Overeem was pushing forward and crowding Werdum’s stance so the whole strike looked awkward and off. Werdum and Reem both have good clinches which is why neither could control the fight from that position.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jun 19, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
thank you.
Werdum wasnt striking to end the fight he threw sloppy punches/knees/kicks to set up a td. which is why Overeem wasnt letting loose cause he didnt wanna get taken down. their clich work negated each others because neither were letting loose each had different strategies than striking to end the fight. Werdum was striking to go for a td and Overeem wasnt striking cause he didnt wanna open himself up for a td. not that hard to understand
please tell me your from Jersey and your screen name is just irony ……cause that would be awesome
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Jun 19, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuck you buddy. If you know anything about reading, you know he said “land” not “rocked”.
that knee didnt land..
Now if it’s ok to call me retarded, ban me for what I said, because I don’t give a shit about this place anymore then.
Boys becoming men...Men becoming wolves
im not your buddy guy...
maybe i mixed two arguments, but there is no way that knee landed or rocked him. like Shotokanman said if it landed “Overeems head would have snapped back”
yeah
he tag him with some jabs while looking to pull guard, but it wasnt an effective jab (GSP). they were pitter patter shots that didnt hurt Overeem. statistically it was a bad match up. a ground fighter which is unwilling to strike at all cost. same as Silva vs Maia/Leites
You probably shouldn't use the word retarded
since you can’t seem to spell it.
by Larvae801 on Jun 19, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
haha
touché. ill blame that on still being drunk from last night :)
as far as i know
the shots don’t have to be more ’powerful" for you to win the striking criteria.
if this was the case than frankie edgar wouldn’t be champ right now. none of his shots are knocking dudes out,still he outlands clearly.
werdum was outlanding clearly to me. i didn’t think it would happen and didn’t expect and wanted to see reem knock him out but he still clearly outstuck reem.
the shots don’t have to be more ’powerful" for you to win the striking criteria.
ok this is getting really weird
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on Jun 23, 2011 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
all i saw
was Werdum landing a nice leg kick, every other shot was blocked. affective offense is landing on and hurting the opponent. not the same as coming forward and throwing uneffative shots
fight metric can say what they want
my opinion- no way did werdum win that fight, although it was dissapointing for overeem how much werdum managed to land.
pl4tinum- youre making a strong case for ‘most ridiculous comment of the article’, werdum’s performance was on the whole embarrassing and i’d be surprised if he headlines another strikeforce card.
overeem was poor but at least he’s through, bigfoot could test his cardio tho i think
I was a little shocked by Overeem's poor defense
It looked like he forgot that he was wearing 4 ounce gloves, the way he tried to defend his head. It seemed like he got clipped a ton. A HW with more power should be able to put Overeem down if he continues to try to use standard boxing defense.
"If I wanted to spend a half hour between two hairy legs I'd go to your mother's house." -Don Frye
“It looked like he forgot that he was wearing 4 ounce gloves”
That’s something I noticed as well.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
Looked like Werdum studied some Spong tapes.
Tyrone was having similar success with the straight shots and broken rhythm, even with the 12oz’ on. He had Overeem wobbly a few times.
"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."
indeed. It’s a habit he needs to quickly unlearn if he wants any success at the HW level.
I do wonder how a fight with Fedor would have went had he beaten Silva. Fedor would have constantly pressured and the defense AO showed last night would not have worked well in his favor.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
there’s no way to know that for sure.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
I think you’re missing the point Rollo. Alistar has shown a tendency to just cover up when he’s pressured and back up with not very good head movent and let shots land on him. It can work OK in K-1 where the huge gloves provide some protection, but is dangerous in MMA. Also, Alistar also doesn’t seem to do too well against opponents who show they are not intimadated by him and will push the pace against him. That’s why a Fedor fight is interesting to me in hindsight. AO got away with it last night because Werdum isn’t the most powerful or dangerous striker.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
watch his K-1 fights
his defense against hands is pretty awful. No head-movement, when he is hurt covers up and either just stands there or goes straight back.
aka BuckeyedBear34
Bingo.
His defense made it seem like he thought he was wearing bigger gloves. Werdum was landing down the pipe all night.
by Body Triangle on Jun 19, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
People will always interpret Fightmetric how they want to
the same people who say “fight metric doesn’t tell the whole story” will be the first ones to point to it to back up their claim on who won last time. The same goes for those who are using it to support their claims this time. Those people will quickly dismiss Fight Metric stats the next time it doesn’t jive with who they thought won.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
by Noah'sArk on Jun 19, 2011 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That's kind of a weird statement
To claim that one can’t have an unambiguous opinion of FightMetric.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
It was interesting, but boring.
I think Overeem deserved to win 30-27 more on based on his dominance of controlling the fight. Even if he wasn’t throwing as much and even if some of the times he threw Werdum to the ground or punched him and he fell and it was Werdum trying to trick him in I give the point to Overeem for having the dominant position. Werdum strategy is very risky cause I think if he doesn’t submit the person he is basically giving up the point in the round.
I think the fair criticism for Overeem was his cardio because he clearly got gassed in the fight, but I don’t think we can judge his stand up from that performance. He didn’t want to open himself up to allow Werdum to get him to the ground so he would only throw power punches and knees. His game plan was to not end up on the ground not to out strike him so I don’t truly think it’s fair to judge his striking from the fight. Not to mention when Werdum was hit no one really could tell if he was damaged or pretending and that complicated things even more. I might be a little biased cause I do like Overeem, but that was at least how I saw it.
You know,
you can dither all you wat about the FightMetric system (lord knows I have), but the guys behind it never fail to impress me with their responses when people ask questions. They’re professional, well-spoken, and make no excuses for shortcomings in the system.
by TheChairman on Jun 19, 2011 2:34 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
I don't even think it's
a shortcoming in the system (which there are), so much as some fights are simply difficult to score. This fight existed somewhere in between.
Follow me at Head Kick Legend
by David Castillo on Jun 19, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
That's why I like them as well
they truly sound like engineers/researchers. Rather than letting their ego run them and defend their product at any cost, they acknowledge the shortcomings because they know that the honest approach will lead to future innovations. It’s something I just don’t see enough of and it drives me crazy.
I don't really get it
Scoring the fight under the unified rules and counting statistics is apples and oranges.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What does that have to do with what he said? All he did was say the FM guys are impressive at giving feedback and answering questions.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Well
The fact that the main impetus behind their entire existence is “statistics”, and how that’s totally different than interpreting and scoring via the unified rules, but those two elements made up the statement from FM he was addressing?
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
By the way
I wasn’t disagreeing that the guy was well spoken or anything, just that the contrasting nature of stats vs. rules is a bigger issue to me than the professionalism of the explanation.
Maybe it was a bad spot for my response.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Lying on your back begging a superior stand up fighter to go to the ground because you can’t take him down deserves a UD loss.
by sheikybaby on Jun 19, 2011 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
if you are a BJJ ace with no takedowns
you don’t get to use your awesome JJ
fights start on the feet
¬_¬
by ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ on Jun 19, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 19, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
It's the same thing as AO not wanting to fight on the ground
Doesn’t AO wanting to stay on the feet and FW wanting to go to the ground cancel each other out. So in the end the victor should go to the more active fighter that’s willing to engage and get to position more.
by nevergoasstomouth on Jun 19, 2011 2:51 PM EDT reply actions
No they’re not the same, if Overeem had put his hands together in a prayer motion and pleaded with Werdum not to try for a takedown, that would have canceled each other out. Werdum made lazy attempts at getting Overrem to turn an MMA fight into a BJJ match.
the prayer was a taunt.
And Reem wanted to turn an mma match into a k1 fight….. but he got out struck.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jun 19, 2011 3:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Unanimous decision. For a guy who kept referring to Overeem as ‘’my son’‘, i don’t think Werdum backed it up with action. That butt scooting thing was like stepping into a time warp back to 1997.
What i don’t get about this very popular train of thought is whats a BJJ blackbelt fighting a bigger stronger guy to do to get him on the ground? I understand being dissapointed in watching it, but his best chance was to catch Overeem in a sub. His best chance to get him there? pulling guard. Shit it’s not like aoki’d all the way across the cage. He just took one or two but cheek steps and gave it up each time.
Maia/Quarry // Maia/Sonnen
I don’t care how they get the fight to the ground, they have to find a way. However, once there, they NEED to establish and maintain control of their opponent.
1997 was a good year for mma.
There wouldn’t have been a bell to save some one from a sub after 5 mins.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jun 19, 2011 4:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
C'mon man.
Werdum didn’t want to earn the takedown. And if memory serves, AO spent quite a bit of time in Werdum’s guard and Werdum did ZERO with it.
I’m all about the BJJ guys and so on, but Werdum did a piss poor job of game planning.
As for being outstruck, didn’t you get the feeling that AO was basically setting Werdum up in order to get him to exchange? Werdum’s striking was somewhat effective, surprisingly, but he did nothing with it. At least set up a takedown and get position to work your strength.
Werdum/Overeem
If Werdum would’ve stop flopping and stood an fought.The could’ve been a drw.I think the judges was turned off by the flopping.
by TERRENCEFROMSOUTHEAST on Jun 19, 2011 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think Overeem just wasn’t concerned by Werdum’s power at all so he was willing to take the shots. They never really showed any signs of effecting Overeem while his strikes definitely effected Werdum. Still, I was surprised that he didn’t clinch up with him against the cage more. There were also a couple of opportunities where he really could have smashed Werdum with some elbows but didn’t. I love Overeem but I was disappointed by his lack of urgency.
by DodgerFan86 on Jun 19, 2011 4:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
One thing I thought was an unknown coming into the bout was if Reem would have any chance against a wrestler. While Werdums takedowns are not the best, Reem nearly total shutdown of them and his ease at getting up the one take he was taken down(after that kick) makes me think Reem if he works on his cardio could def be the #1 heavy.
I am free because I choose to be so-Me
I think its still an unknown, Werdum isn’t much of a wrestler.
by DodgerFan86 on Jun 19, 2011 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, i wondered why Alistair didn’t capitalize more on his clinch game given that i figured that would be his greatest advantage.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 19, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
The clinch
is where Werdum hits all his TDs from.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, i kinda didn’t think about that.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 19, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn’t it have been hard for Werdum to get a take down while pressed up against the fence?
by DodgerFan86 on Jun 19, 2011 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but easier than getting one
in the center of the cage, as we saw.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 20, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Werdum should have had a point taken for stalling in the 2nd round, there is no way he should have won or drawed.
I am free because I choose to be so-Me
by Kefka on Jun 19, 2011 4:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
No Offense intended to the FightMetric guy, but
And “cage control” doesn’t really favor either guy. I think the only round I’m confident in is Round 2 going to Overeem, so that makes me lean toward him.
This is where I’m pretty baffled. The battle of control made up the entire fight, and it was entirely lopsided in favor Overeem. Control is dictating the location of the fight, and the most memorable aspect of the entire thing was Werdum’s complete lack of control. I don’t see how that was not a demonstrative owning of control by Overeem.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 4:34 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It doesn't really
Under the unified rules, you turn in a score that’s open to a certain amount of subjectivity. With MMA stats, especially with punching, every single strike thrown is open to a certain amount of subjectivity, and whether it landed, and how significant it was, etc.
To me, they’re both obvious aspects of a fight, but totally different in structure. Many elements of a fight just don’t shine through in statistics.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
and as the main article stated, context needs to be taken into consideration. still, it’s impressive to see what the numbers look like when it’s over.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 19, 2011 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
But as I stated
The FM guy was speaking under the context of the unified rules.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 19, 2011 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
But
it has to be viewed in perspective, not just as numbers. This isn’t Olympic boxing, lol.
I can’t believe how few people actually believe that AO was intentionally taking SOME of the strikes trying to set Werdum up. Problem was, evertime AO threw a punch, Werdum dropped to his back.
well, i could forgive the hypothetical argument that he didn’t mind getting hit because he wasn’t concerned with Werdum’s power [for fuck’s sake, Alistair’s gone to war with Peter Aerts!], but the whole ‘intentional’ thing seems absurd.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 19, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I was very impressed with Werdum, actually
The goofy aspects of the fight overshadow the fact that he was game throughout and pulled out all his tricks. The trick where he pretended or at least exaggerated his knee injury almost fooled Overeem. He struck with Alistair, tried for takedowns, and did succeed in getting the fight to the ground multiple times, including being able to throw on a legit submission attempt at the end. I’m not sure what to make of his trick of pretending to be rocked in order to pull guard, but it sure worked against Fedor.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jun 19, 2011 4:40 PM EDT reply actions
standing with a K-1 champ is no cakewalk, and he certainly was more surprising on his feet.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 19, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
While greatly disappointing, there is no doubt in my mind that AO deserved the win more.
-more effective striking.
-better cage control.
-better game plan.
-
-more aggressive.
-it isn’t AO’s job to go down to the ground with Werdum. It is Werdum’s job to get the take down, secure position and then mount an effective offense. He couldn’t get the take down, instead fell and want AO to just follow him, even praying at one point for it to happen, lol.
-to me, the most disappointing aspect was Werdum showing that he could have some effective stand up, but refusing to stay with it long enough to make an impact or set up a solid take down.
And
along the same lines, the Barnett win.
Barnett dominated and put on a great performance, yet the fans boo. They either don’t understand what is happening, or want a train wreck every fight. Not to stand up for Josh, but he did a great job of position and control. It isn’t his fault that a guy who has been training for years now, can’t get off of his back. It is absolutely the other fighters job to sweep, get up, whatever.
by BJJDenver on Jun 19, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
can we let the 'prayer' thing slide?
that was just a funny taunt. the flopping thing is unforgivable, though. it’s one thing to do the same thing over and over again to frustrate your opponent, but there was no plan B and he just ended up looking lazy in certain spots.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 19, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Definetly an unsatisfying fight leaving both men looking like less than championship material.
On the other hand you can kind of imagine how Werdum/ Velasquez might look somewhat similiar for the 1st 3 rounds.
Barnett/Werdum would have been interesting.
Barnett the new tourney favorite?
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Jun 19, 2011 5:05 PM EDT reply actions
Werdum’s plan may have convinced fightmetric that he won, but it’s going to be next to impossible to convince human judges (especially the judges mma appears to be stuck with) that he won.
If your strategy is to play possum and get a submission, you need to finish the fight and you can’t get upset if you trick the judges into thinking you got hurt a lot more than you actually did.
Overeem needs to make adjustments but he's still a great fighter.
I think cage rust was a factor. I think that Reem did a lot of smart things to neutralize werdums jitz, but he just gassed out a bit.
I think if this had been a fight in the UFC and somebody had played out an effective gameplan to win, nobody would be batting an eye, but since its overeem outside the ufc and he’s use to knocking people out their is a lot of criticism.
Werdum played it right by throwing wild and coming forward, it seemed to really throw Overeem off, but I think he gassed quicker and most of his shots were bullshit.
I see the fight for Overeem in every way.
this fight was fucking AWFUL
But all 3 rounds should’ve gone to Reem, regardless of the striking counts. Fabricio shouldn’t be credited for pulling guard when Overeem connected on a big punch and Werdum flopped, because pulling guard involves bringing your opponent into your guard. At least 5 situations happened where Alistair would land a punch that stunned Fabricio, and Fabricio would flop and wave Reem down. Those shouldve been all ruled as knockdowns, because Fabricio did nothing to pull Overeem into a dangerous position. He would get stunned, land on his back, and stay there to recover. Either those are legitimate knockdowns, or werdum should have been docked a point for stalling (and acting like a bitch). Its somewhat comical the first few times, but became ridiculous to the point that I considered changing the channel on a fight I’ve been waiting for months for.
Fabricio TRIED to pull guard, but that term indicates actually pulling someone down with you. I consider this a legitimate offensive weapon for a good guard player, even if it puts you in a disadvantageous position and might lose you points in a bjj competition. What Werdum did was give the illusion he was pulling guard, while in actuality recovering from Overeems strikes.
Also, Overeem was not credited with nearly enough takedowns. Every time he threw Werdum down, he was putting Werdum to the ground and stuffing his takedown attempts. This is a great show of technique to not only avoid your opponents strategy, but show some of your physical dominance as well.
This fight, though disappointing, was 30-27 Overeem.
by Austin Martin on Jun 19, 2011 8:00 PM EDT via mobile reply actions

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