With the Fall of Shane Carwin, Is Alistair Overeem the Last Hope for the Mega-Heavyweights?
by Nate Wilcox on Jun 13, 2011 2:24 PM EDT
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Just a year ago, heavyweight behemoths Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin fought to unify the UFC's heavyweight and interim heavyweight belts at UFC 116. Both fighters had to cut weight to make the 265lb weight limit. Meanwhile, mega-heavies like Alistair Overeem (250+lbs), Antonio Silva (265+lbs), and Brett Rogers (265lbs) were thundering around Strikeforce's cages.
Many said the heavyweight division needed to be split up into two divisions to give the 230lb guys a fair chance.
With Junior dos Santos' (239lbs) win over a shrunken looking Shane Carwin (250lbs) at UFC 131 following Cain Velasquez (244lbs) shellacking of Brock Lesnar at UFC 121, some are saying the age of the giant heavyweight is over. Jonathan Snowden opined to that effect at SBNation:
And just like that, the era of the giant heavyweight was over and done - almost before it even started. The talking point last year was that giant heavyweights like Carwin and Brock Lesnar were the wave of the future. That men cutting weight from upwards of 285 pounds down to the heavyweight limit of 265 would smash Hulk style. But we forgot one thing - speed, as we've learned over and over again in sports, kills.
Carwin was like the tortoise in the tortoise and the hare parable, only an alternate reality fairy tale in which the rabbit nearly beats him to death. He plodded around the cage, seemingly content with Junior strolling over occasionally to punch him in the face. Historically, it's a result that was predictable. Over and over again we've seen smaller, quicker, and more skilled heavyweights win UFC gold. Randy Couture, Kevin Randleman, and Bas Rutten were blown up light heavyweights. Andrei Arlovski walloped bigger men with speed and finesse. And the greatest heavyweight of all time, Fedor Emelianenko, weighs 220 pounds, much of that ice cream.
...
When (dos Santos and Velasquez) meet in the middle, neither will approach 250 pounds. The age of the mammoth is over - killed by Junior dos Santos Saturday in Vancouver.
Anthony Pace had a similar take at Head Kick Legend:
When Brock Lesnar first claimed the UFC title from Randy Couture, many hailed the arrival of "super-heavyweights", mammoth athletes who barely fit within the 265 lb weight limit of the division. It was to be fighters like Lesnar and Carwin who, even if they had no diverse set of refined skills, would dominate the division based on sheer size and strength. But as Royce Gracie proved those many years and many UFCs ago, finely honed technique can bring down the biggest man.
That's not to say that men like Lesnar and Carwin are unskilled. It's just that many seemed to forget the likes of Couture, Fedor Emelianenko, and Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira. Many were obsessed with the sheer size of the fresh behemoths entering the sport.
It's taken Velasquez with his crisp kickboxing combos, dominant wrestling, and relentless pace to remind us that time in the gym honing one's skills is the only way to maximize genetic potential. And it's taken dos Santos's lightning-quick hand speed, unparalleled precision, and fearlessness in a firefight to prove that size is not the most intimidating aspect of a fighter. It's befitting that dos Santos is a protégé of Nogueira, who made his legend slaying larger fighters.
It definitely looks like the UFC's giants have been slain by a smaller, nimbler breed of heavyweight. But over at Strikeforce a certain Alistair Overeem will be straining the scales against Fabricio Werdum at this weekend's second installment of the Strikeforce heavyweight Grand Prix.
For his part, Overeem wants to unify the belts. Per the Toronto Sun:
"If I win the (Strikeforce heavyweight Grand Prix) tournament, I personally - and I believe many fans are with me - would love to see the winner of the tournament go against the UFC heavyweight champion," the 6-foot-5, 265-pound Overeem said.
Will an Overeem win (potentially combined with a Brett Rogers win against Josh Barnett) mean the era of the mammoths is NOT over?
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The Mega Heavyweight Era
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These eras and ages dont seem to last long
by Lauren J Darkbloom on Jun 13, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
ah snowden
no, the era of big heavyweight is not “over” because two guys lost, anymore than it “began” because two guys won.
going forward, bigger guys may, and probably will, dominate. all things being equal, 35 pounds of muscle should make a big difference.
but right now the pool at HW is just so unbelievably shallow that smaller guys with great athleticism can do the job just fine. it’s just too thin right now.
the story is more about the emergence of Cain and JDS and the fall of Brock and Carwin than it is about the beginning or end of any “era.”
by Clifford J on Jun 13, 2011 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 14 recs
Agreed
the era of big heavyweight is not "over" because two guys lost, anymore than it "began" because two guys won.
Brock, Carwin, Cain and JDS all made their UFC debuts in ’08, and it was never a foregone conclusion who would come out on top when they finally were matched up against each other.
Fas est et ab hoste doceri. (Right it is to be taught, even by the enemy) ~Ovid
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jun 13, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
Because MMA, boxing, and amateur wrestling is filled with heavyweight champs who didn’t approach the upper weight limits. Hell, Kurt Angle won a heavyweight title when he was almost light enough to compete in the division below him.
History isn’t filled with these overpowering larger men – maybe fighting isn’t geared to reward size over speed? At a certain weight an athlete is strong enough to do what needs to be done. Anything above that is excess.
That’s a working theory.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 13, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
ok
fair enough. it’s certainly a working theory.
i do believe that it’s too early, and the division is too thin, to make sweeping judgments about the future of the division. but you raise some good points.
sorry if i came across as a jerk.
I think there's always going to be trade-offs
More muscle means more power, but you lose some cardio because your heart and lungs have to feed it all; taller guys have better reach, but they can be vulnerable to guys that get inside them; etc.
Ultimately the successful guys are the ones that find a style that works for their genetic make-up, and from that point on it’s all technique and hard work. Being bigger or smaller isn’t necessarily an advantage in and of itself, but it can be if it’s used correctly.
Fas est et ab hoste doceri. (Right it is to be taught, even by the enemy) ~Ovid
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jun 13, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Trunks learned this the hard way...
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jun 14, 2011 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Mariusz Pudzianowski proves that theory wrong....
….oh……wait…. I’m with you now
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
+1
Boxing and ammy wrestling are particularly pertinent here given the short history of MMA.
Even today, the big HWs in boxing (e.g. Lennox Lewis or the Klitchskos) don’t get over 250 much, and tend to be int the 240 lbs range.
At that size, every added pound comes at the expense of cardio and speed.
I'm new..... I dnt know what to do...!!!!
Signed in. Gonna try to figure this out after years of watchn. Snowden….. Good analysis. Once money is in MMA freaks like Peppers will train for it instead of a different sport. Prize fighters. Huge, athletic, trained, ………..prize fighters
by rearnakedbroke on Jun 13, 2011 7:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Use more exclamations points.
You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.
by timetraveltome on Jun 14, 2011 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
your title says it all.
Snowden fails again, although in well written fashion.
The Prime Heavyweight athletes are playing other sports, Carwin was destroyed by JDS because of the brazilian’s superior technique. Cain trumped Lesnar because he is a better fighter, Lesnar couldn’t take punches.
But once you get past their losses and see how belonged in the Octagon with their opponents despite having serious flaws on their games tells you that size does have its benefits.
It might be the truth that people bought into big man’s Hype but it’s not a factor that should be discounted, the era of the Mammoth will begin when MMA is paying big enough.
This.
People keep saying wait for nfl money. Boxing has had “nfl money” before the nfl had it. Its hw division starts at 200. I never bought into the oaf > skill theory and what people were claiming in regards to Lesnar’s ability was truly embarrassing to the sport. Fiction.
Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.
by Urijah Bieber on Jun 13, 2011 4:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Raw strength and extra lean mass are not as beneficial to a stand up fighter as they are to a grappler or in the clinch game.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 13, 2011 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
semy
case closed. Agility/athleticism and agility when fist fighting is key. That move Herman did to get off the cage when ADCC bad ass Enimo was about to bring the hurt no monster is going to do.
If someone could retain a linemen’s mass and strength and still be fast and athletic enough to play QB they’d do it also. Just doesn’t work that way.
Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.
by Urijah Bieber on Jun 14, 2011 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
1.Semy is apples to oranges given that he's 6'11.
A stacked 6’4 DeMarcus Ware, or Mario Williams 6’7 is a far different story. They 265 and 300 pounds respectively are better athletes than anyone in MMA. That type of athlete crossed over with MMA skills never would have been on the ground with Einemo.
2. Daunte Culpepper was 280 in his prime
Not afraid to nitpick
The problem though
is cardio. NFL players have 4 downs, and then they go stand on the sidelines and suck on oxygen from tanks. Just physiologically it is gonna be difficult to carry that much weight and have a good sustained gas tank.
Cardio problems for sure,
Along with a bunch of other big question marks – are those “athletic” giants (are 40-yard dashes and vertical leaps synonymous with athleticism?) going to have decent chins? Be limber enough to box? Throw kicks? Flexible enough to work off their back? Grapple for long periods?
And that’s to say nothing of the mental requirements of the fight game – gameplanning, adaptability, heart, etc.
As someone else pointed out, the real issue, at least in the US is that big, athletic guys are steered into football and basketball during their childhood and high school.
It may change some in the future, esp if fighter pay goes up, but there are only the smallest fraction of kids training MMA as there are stick and ball sports.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 14, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
pleny of people being steered toward boxing
but the big big guys get their asses kicked in the gym by smaller guys who throw faster, and decide the football field or the basketball court is for them. Skill players in the NFL are 200-250 for basically the same reasons. Agility, quickness.
Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.
by Urijah Bieber on Jun 14, 2011 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh definitely
But let Mario Williams trim down to 265 for cardio reasons and then he’s even that much more explosive in terms of quickness/speed. My point was that a significant number of NFL player’s athleticism is going to be off the charts for an MMA fighter (hell, a guy like Williams is off the charts for the NFL). It’s just a numbers game of who gets into football vs. MMA early in life.
As for the toughness issue, I would say running backs alone are at least as tough as any fighter in terms of pain tolerance etc. Their primes are done at age 30 from the beating they take. Who knows about chins, but who knows about a random wrestler’s chin either? Give me the better athlete and you’ll probably have the better fighter.
I don’t even know if I’m saying that you could take Adrian Peterson or whatever and turn him into a dominant fighter right now, but hypothetically one of those guys at 18 training MMA would absolutely rule the roost eventually. That might even basically be what Jon Jones is.
Not afraid to nitpick
Brock had better combine stats than mario williams
No one said some of these guys couldn’t be successful, but fist fighting requires specific athletic skills that football may not require.
Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.
by Urijah Bieber on Jun 14, 2011 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
No, he did not
For starters, Lesnar never participated in the NFL’s scouting combine. He did however try out for the Vikings at age 26 and put up some extremely good (for a 280+ pound man) numbers, but a bit shy of Super Mario in all areas:
40-yard dash: 4.75 (4.66 for Mario)
225-bench: 30 reps (35 for Mario)
Vertical leap: 35" (40.5" for Mario)
Standing broad jump: 10’-0" (10’-0" also for Mario).
Of course, Brock only spent 6 weeks preparing for his try out (and on all aspects, not just these things) whereas Mario spent months specifically focusing on preparing for all of the combine events.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 15, 2011 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought I should check the numbers myself when I posted this
I found a bunch of stuff saying his numbers were better, but apparently this comes back to a coach saying he had him beaten in some categories but not others.
His strength and conditioning coach was going over what 2006′s #1 NFL draft pick Mario WIlliams’ combine numbers were against Brock’s combine numbers were (when Brock tried out for the NFL in 2004). The numbers were fairly identical with Brock actually being a little faster and stronger, but a little less on agility.
I am always down for Lesnar mythbusting.
Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.
by Urijah Bieber on Jun 15, 2011 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Everyone posts monster numbers till they get to the actual combine
Then magically their 40 goes up by .3, broad jump down 6" and vertical a few inches shorter than what’s listed. The combine is about actually figuring out the physical attributes (for better or worse for the purpose of evaluation of football skills but that’s another story), the numbers quoted are about hype. Basically every player’s “list” combine stats are not what their combine stats are.
Not afraid to nitpick
*for a variety of reasons
A 4.75 on a track in track shoes is very different than a 4.75 on turf in football cletes. A 4.75 electronically timed is very different from a 4.75 hand timed etc.
Not afraid to nitpick
The combine is about actually figuring out the physical attributes (for better or worse for the purpose of evaluation of football skills but that’s another story), the numbers quoted are about hype.
I think what you are getting at is that the combine is designed to measure everyone on an equal playing field, which is true. Numbers posted at private workouts or at the school are much less meaningful for most things (225 bench is an exception).
For something like the 40, there are so many variables, both obvious and otherwise, that it is almost meaningless to compare times from various places. FieldTurf will generally always run faster than Astroturf for example. In addition to the surface, altitude, starting technique, top hand placement and torso angle all affect times, as do starting, breathing and finishing techniques.
Perhaps the most overlooked variable is the timing itself. The differences between various people timing the same race can vary considerably, even with electronic timing (since it relies on manually starting it, based on first movement), based on nothing more than reaction time.
Think about how many times we have seen 2 guys run side-by-side, with one getting a big jump at the start, and the other almost closing the gap as race goes on. Which guy is “faster” in a football sense, the guy who ran a 4:35 with a great start, or the guy who ran a 4:46 but clearly closed the distance once out of the blocks? Which type of speed is more useful to you as a player?
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 15, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
So when people post Lesnar’s numbers, you just have to give a mental discount. NFL teams LOVE them some combine numbers—Matt Jones was a 1st rounder as a WR exclusively because of the combine…when he played QB in college—-if Lesnar actually put up a legit combine-type tested 4.75, 10 foot broad jump etc, they would have stashed him on the practice squad for half a season to see if he could play. In reality Lesnar probably ran a 4.9-5.0, with a 9’6" broad jump etc. It’s not really denigrating him, those are still REALLY impressive numbers for anyone not in the NFL, but it’s false hype to quote some coach in an ESPN article.
Not afraid to nitpick
It wasn't simply Carwins lack of speed that cost him the fight.
It was also his lack of skill the disparity in skill. JDS is a much better boxer then Carwin.
Being larger IS an advantage. Just like being faster is an advantage, or being a better striker, or a better grappler etc. All things being equal, the bigger guy will win.
Right now, the heavyweight division is shallow enough that smaller guys with higher levels skill and preparation are able to do well. That might not always be the case.
What a Terrible set of poll questions
Whatever happened to styles make fights. Lesnar’s victories were tailor made for him, light strikers with grappling bases. Surely the larger more dominant wrestler would win that exchange. Carwin fought a line of slop boxers with poor takedowns and crushed their faces. The HW division skill wise is terrible and it was only a matter of time for skilled multifaceted fighters such as Caine and JDS to ascend to their rightful place at the top.
I believe Overeem is the most complete of them all with the combination of skill and size but I cannot say that with absolute certainty until he does it consistently against top competition. That is the only thing lacking at this point.
I am vorn the unspeakable the skulls of those who defy me bleach in the suns of hundreds of worlds...... and you are
No...
Cain and Junior are just the first bunch of well rounded heavyweights in the UFC, they just happen to be smaller than others in the division.
Only reason why the current MONSTER-hw's failed to beat the smaller ones was because of skill
Once skill catches up with what the smaller HW’s already poses they(big hw’s) will be unstoppable.
Once skill catches up with what the smaller HW’s already poses they(big hw’s) will be unstoppable.
Stop.
Carwin will probably never catch up in skills compared to JDS or arguably Cain Velasquez.
Brock Lesnar’s striking will never measure up to Velasquez nor JDS.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 13, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll include the new prospects and the future prospects. I believe a fighter like Velasquez is more an exception than an example of what we will see.
Same thing goes for fighters like Jon Jones. Enjoy him while he’s still fighting.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 13, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
problem is there arent that many big athletic guys in the world.
I am 6’4. I am generally the tallest person in the room. Not always, just usually. Since there are more smaller guys that’s a greater talent pool. Plus when you are strong its hard to learn techniques properly because your strength will mask errors.
That’s why its usually the middle weights that are the most dangerous. They have size and skill. In Bjj- Marcelo,Maia,and Jacare, consistently beat larger men. They are a perfect mix of strength ,speed, and skill.
Roy Jones, and Anderson Silva other perfect examples of this.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Jun 13, 2011 6:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This isn’t just about Carwin and Brock. This is about the future.
Can you imagine if guys started going into MMA instead of basket ball? 7 foot tall cardio machines with excellent hand speed and hand eye coordination!
Unfortunately that's one reason the heavyweight class is so shallow.
There simply aren’t that many guys out there with the genetics to be 230+ lbs and athletic, and those that are generally start out playing other sports and can make more money by sticking with those sports than by switching to MMA.
Fas est et ab hoste doceri. (Right it is to be taught, even by the enemy) ~Ovid
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jun 13, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
yeah. Let’s not forget that Brock Lesnar tried and failed to play professional football for the Minnesota Vikings. Meanwhile Stephen Neal has an NFL ring or two and has “talked” about MMA.
I’m sure if Lesnar made the team, he would still be playing professional football to this day.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 13, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Same goes for Schaub and Mitrione. I’m sure they both would have been on TUF if they had gotten contracts in the NFL.
Fas est et ab hoste doceri. (Right it is to be taught, even by the enemy) ~Ovid
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jun 13, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair, in Lesnar's case
it wasn’t at all a failure of athletic talent. The guy just didn’t have the experience. Attitude may also have played a role – I don’t know.
Not much of a fail
If we consider Lesnar made the practice squad and he was many years removed from actual sports.
I think this is a really relevant point
The whole purpose of martial arts, at some level, was/is to give smaller men the skills to defeat larger enemies. It’s pretty rare for a huge, athletic kid to say to decide to train in martial arts. In this country, at least, that kid is going to have the football and/or basketball coach in his ear from a pretty early age, and since nobody is likely to try to push him around, he’s probably not going to develop much in the way of warrior spirit. It’s interesting to think about what someone with Lebron James’ athletic gifts could do with MMA training, but I don’t expect to see a lot of it.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jun 13, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
$90 million in sponsorship money vs getting punched in the face and risking a broken orbital bone for $5,000 - $500,000
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 13, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Someone just did.
People should thank Lebron. I haven’t seen people that strongly rallied around an NBA outcome in years.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jun 13, 2011 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
having only three rounds means they'd do great on the under card and main card
but main events don’t just have four rounds, they got five.
Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.
by Urijah Bieber on Jun 15, 2011 3:48 AM EDT up reply actions
The Future.
I’ve often heard this storyline about future competitors molded in the frame of athletic and well rounded guys like GSP and Jon Jones. Sorry, I just don’t see it happening.
One. Mentally those guys will have to be strong. Take a punch and make less money OR catch a ball or throw a ball in a hoop for arguably more money. Frank Mir made this argument a while back and it makes sense. Every once in a while lightning will strike and an anomaly will enter the sport. But there are a lot of factors that will hinder this future of well rounded, athletic 7-footer, 250+lbs. fighter. The entry fee is very cost-prohibitive.
The future will probably look very similar to boxing. The stars will emerge from other countries because their government and business will support combat sports. (See Emmanuel Steward discuss the beginning of the Klitschkos brothers.)
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 13, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you are right for the most part.
But I also think that there is a generation of kids who are growing up right now who are dreaming of being a heavyweight champion. If the popularity (and pay) of MMA increases significantly over the next decade, we could begin to see those people more willing to enter the cage instead of the court/field.
Without getting way off subject
I think this is a challenge MMA has to overcome: there are tons of youth football, basketball, baseball, etc. programs for kids to get involved in from a very young age, all of which are pretty well structured so your progress from level to level and weed out the kids that can’t compete at the next level. MMA has no youth league, and parents aren’t going to rush to sign their kids up for it even if there was.
Fas est et ab hoste doceri. (Right it is to be taught, even by the enemy) ~Ovid
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jun 13, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Ditto!
While I LOVE MMA, I will not rush to sign my son up for football (broken clavicles, bad knees, paralysis, etc.), MMA or any combat sport.
Oddly enough, I’ll sign him up for boxing, judo, jiu-jitsu but I don’t want him to pursue it as a career. But if he shows an aptitude and the right attitude, I may support his decision.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 13, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you saying that boxing, judo, and jiu-jitsu aren’t combat sports?
by Horselover Fat on Jun 13, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
- boxing with pads, serious pads.
- jiu-jitsu is not as brutal as boxing.
- judo can be practiced safely.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 13, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay. Like someone mentioned below, judo does have a lot of injuries, since it’s a whole lot of throwing each-other to the ground. But at least they don’t do striking I guess.
I was mostly nitpicking though, since at first you said you wouldn’t sign him up for any combat sports, and then the next sentence turned around and listed three combat sports you would sign him up for. Just found that a little curious.
by Horselover Fat on Jun 14, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude,
I get signing him up for judo & jiu-jitsu but not football. But boxing? That is asking for long term brain damage!
As far as i can tell
Boxing is very regulated at the amateur level. Especially with kids.
Unfortunately, no amount of regulation is going to stop a hard hit to the head from pushing the inside of the skull against the surface of the brain and doing that kind of damage if you know what I mean.
Maybe if it was body shots only. There’s a karate discipline that does that right? Like only kicks to head but no punches, I think it was the one that Andy Hug smashed fools in.
I think you’re referring to kyukushin karate, which has lots of sparring and full-contact competitions.. you’re right that they don’t allow punches to the head, but they do kick and knee the shit out of it if they get the chance.
by Horselover Fat on Jun 14, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Sport Judo has an incredible injury rate, and it’s particularly hard on the shoulders. Not particularly surprising, considering it’s like 90% throws.
ouch
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 13, 2011 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Many were obsessed with the sheer size of the fresh behemoths entering the sport.
People like to drink Kool-Aid.
The story line concerning the end of the Mega-Heavyweight is so corny. History, as some have noted, continuously provided proof that technique, speed, etc. can defeat size. Period. After all, isn’t that’s one of the reasons why people are so impressed with Manny Pacquiao’s rise in boxing? Were we not impressed with Randy Couture defeated the big bad Tim Sylvia?
And I’m sure more people will continue to complain how big Anderson Silva is in the 185 division, yet fail to mention how small Frankie Edgar is for the lightweight division.Yeah. Whatever.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
And the greatest heavyweight of all time, Fedor Emelianenko, weighs 220 pounds, much of that ice cream.
LOL.
As always been the case in martial arts and combat sports in general, it is always skill, preparation and technique that takes first place while other factors (like size) place second. Both Cain and JDS are very, very well rounded fighters and use this to their advantage (similar to how Fedor did it in PRIDE where he was undersized in most of his bouts). Overeem, in my opinion, has an excellent combination of both the skill AND the size.
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
Yes — Overeem is just a blown up light heavy anyhow.
What does this mean? Is this like saying BJ Penn was a blown up light heavy against Machida? Overeem has been a HW for a couple of years, I’d say he’s a solid heavyweight now.
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
by andrew861 on Jun 13, 2011 2:59 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I for one always facepalm’d when someone called for a cruiserweight division.
"I don't care, hit him with your groin!"
I'll admit being one of those people who toyed with the idea
When Brock was (briefly) at the top of is game it had the feeling of being borderline unfair for a guy with that size and athletic ability to be in against men who weighed 40 pounds less than him at fight time. What always stopped me from fully endorsing it was the shallowness of HW. Now it seems silly, but I could still envision a time down the road, where new divisions are added to make way for an influx of talent. A cruiserweight might make sense in that environment.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jun 13, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
I was first getting more deeply into the sport around the time that Brock beat Rand and Mir and couldn’t fathom smaller guys dealing with that sort of size and strength difference. Now, knowing more about, as you said, the depth of the division and seeing the success of smaller guys, I don’t see any way to justify a cruiser weight division in MMA at this time.
Bob Sapp vs. Rodrigo Nogueira Bob "The Beast" Sapp is 400 pounds, and if 300 pounds of it aren’t pure steroids, then someone has got to be fucking kidding. -SeanBaby
Yeah word. But what Brock brought was this moral panic reaction from hardcores in a sense – not saying at all that was your reasoning, you sound like a smart person – but yeah, I have been thinking that a 255:ish Brock would be a much smoother mma fighter. The way he snatches at legs when shooting a double would be enhanced better by a little more speed than all that mass he walks around with. The discourse has changed though, and I’m happy as long as I get to see fighters get in the cage at their best possible selves, even if I happen to hate them personally.
"I don't care, hit him with your groin!"
Sorry, I still think a cruiserweight division makes sense. Put a couple of the big flabby guys on the card for the entertainment value in a SuperHeavyweight division, but make 225 or 230 the top end of the cruiserweight division. Guys like Rosa and Beltran will never be champs, but they’re fun as hell to watch. The SHW division would be a refuge for the 30% body fat, cardio-deficient, lacking-in-skills guys who just want to stand and bang. They clutter the landscape but are good for those who like a brawl between two guys who are gasping after the first round.
Author of "Clay Guida: The Complete Fighter"®
by Scabby Knuckle on Jun 13, 2011 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
voted no, but with the caveat...
That the pool of athletes is currently too small. If/when the time comes that it is preferable for giant athletes to pursue MMA from a young age instead of trying to become NFL tight tends/linebackers or NBA power forwards, then we can start talking about this “new era.” However, that time is a long way off. Currently, the best athletes we’re going to get are NCAA HW wrestlers, the best of whom are usually Cain-sized anyways. Most of the huge huge 265+ wrestlers either are not athletically coordinated enough to develop standup skills (konrad) or also have a shot at becoming NFL linemen as it is (stephen neal).
It is going to take a while for the low-end money in MMA to get good enough to lure these guys away.
And moreso than the NFL lineman types, I would love to see the NBA forward body types in MMA. The 6’7-6’10, 240+ pounders who have the speed and agility to develop sick standup games would be awesome. A guy a bit shorter I like to use as an example is JR Smith of the Denver nuggets. 6’6 and a ripped up 240 pounds who can run like the wind and launch that frame through the air. Albeit, those types will probably always favor the NBA, but damn that would be sweet
"now i'm too fucked up to dance, so i'ma sit with my hand down the front of my pants" - Atmosphere
by eastcoastatlas on Jun 13, 2011 3:13 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Is this serious
Remember that Antonio Silva guy that beat your 220 lb legend Fedor worse than he had ever been beaten in his life?
And we aren’t talking about another Fedor here- these guys are legit 240 lb-ers. That is still massive.
Oh yeah, and Werdum and Reem and still around 250.
Someone needs to get the average last fight weigh-in weight of the top 10 hws asap.
by Austin Martin on Jun 13, 2011 3:14 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Just saying.
Sorry, Fedor wasn’t beaten. He looked bad but homey was fighting back throughout the 5 minute pounding of the 2nd round. I’m just saying, he never quit, continued to mount some kind of offensive when he was in terrible spots.
Fedor is just one of those guys that cuts badly. Brett Rogers destroyed his face with a jab in the opening of their fight.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 13, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There is no questioning his heart, but saying he didn’t get beaten up is ridiculous. He chose between getting punched from the back or directly to his face. He got OWNED.
by Austin Martin on Jun 13, 2011 3:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, he was getting pounded but I saw a fighter that continued to look for submission and improve his position. Maybe he needs to improve his knowledge of jiu-jitsu – those Gracie brothers gave him some credit while pointing out his flaws – but homey was never out of the fight.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 13, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
He was definitely ready for round 3 of that fight
Tune every heart and every voice,
Bid every care withdraw;
Let all with one accord rejoice,
In praise of Old Nassau.
In praise of Old Nassau we sing,
Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!
Our hearts will give while we shall live,
Three cheers for Old Nassau.
by Anthony Pace on Jun 13, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed.
we’ll never know how that could have ended, even though he was getting beat fair and square. a third round could have made a world of difference.
i’ve been saying that Fedor needs to work on his Jits for years now. i guess he just had the luxury of not being used to fighting off his back.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 13, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
wow
Fedor is a Sambo champ. Sambo’s throws, locks, and chokes are closely derived from Judo. So much so, the Sambo founder was executed for refusing to say otherwise.
Carlos and Helio Gracie learned JJ from one of Kano Jigaro’s students, Mayaeda. (Kano is the found of Judo, called Kano JJ at the time.) Mayaeda was smaller and specialized in ne-waza (ground fighting) so he emphasized that part of Judo when he moved to Brazil and taught Carlos Gracie.
Both Sambo and BJJ are direct daughter arts of Judo. There are things added/removed afterwards, but the ground game in all those arts are nearly identical.
I don’t think Fedor needs more BJJ. He’s easily a high level BB in BJJ already skill and knowledge wise. He needs to control his diet and not fight at HW like every other man under 6’ tall on the planet should (including Roy Nelson).
by d.rok on Jun 13, 2011 7:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
1 Cain Velasquez 244
2 Junior dos Santos 239
3 Fabricio Werdum 238
3 Brock Lesnar 264
5 Shane Carwin 254
6 Antonio Silva 265+
7 Alistair Overeem 262 (at K1 WGP)
8 Frank Mir 260
9 Fedor Emelianenko 229
10 Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira 233
Average 248.8 lbs
".He still has a ground game that seems heavily dependent on lying still and hoping that his opponent won't notice his very kimura-able arm..."
by dancingChicken on Jun 13, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks DC
Considering that Big Nog hasn’t competed in forever, and will almost absolutely lose to Schaub, who weighs in btw 240-250, and that would rain the average to around 250, I would say that there’s a resounding no to the premise.
by Austin Martin on Jun 13, 2011 3:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Of that list only two are gargantuans cutting to make 265.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 13, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
but weren’t you including the 250+ fighters as part of the Mega-heavyweights?
Bob Sapp vs. Rodrigo Nogueira Bob "The Beast" Sapp is 400 pounds, and if 300 pounds of it aren’t pure steroids, then someone has got to be fucking kidding. -SeanBaby
Which 2?
Bigfoot of course, but who else. Lesnar used to have to cut (pre-illness)…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 14, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Seeing Mir that big still freaks me out. He was at his best when he was about 245, imo.
"Rather than love, than money, than faith, than fame, than fairness... give me truth."
Chris McCandless A.K.A. Alexander Supertramp
1968-1992
...and before he did his Evel Kineval impression.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 13, 2011 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Happy someone finally brought up Bigfoot. He is more well rounded than any of the monster HW’s and he cuts to get to 265.
Initiative comes to thems that wait.
I WAS WRONG ABOUT JOE!
by memitim on Jun 13, 2011 4:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
To Reem or not to Reem...
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
when you eat puffy horses
you get puffy too I guess ^^
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
Enough with the horse meat jokes...the joke is dead.
And if you dare make a “beating a dead horse” response:
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 13, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hate that kid
I could watch him get slapped all day long
"Serious sport is war minus the shooting."
George Orwell
No one spoil it for me
I’m only on Ep 6, but I hope at some point Arya stabs him in the face
Tune every heart and every voice,
Bid every care withdraw;
Let all with one accord rejoice,
In praise of Old Nassau.
In praise of Old Nassau we sing,
Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!
Our hearts will give while we shall live,
Three cheers for Old Nassau.
by Anthony Pace on Jun 13, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
you may want to stay away...
from all internet Game of Thrones related internet content today- I won’t spoil anything, but last night’s episode has the entire audience on fire.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 13, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, i got on FB a minute ago and immediately logged back out
Tune every heart and every voice,
Bid every care withdraw;
Let all with one accord rejoice,
In praise of Old Nassau.
In praise of Old Nassau we sing,
Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!
Our hearts will give while we shall live,
Three cheers for Old Nassau.
by Anthony Pace on Jun 13, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
**spoiler alert**
in the next episode, Overeem punches that kid so hard, he sprouts pubic hair on his feet.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 13, 2011 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Is the show really that good?
I’ve never been one into dragons and swords and other medieval shit, although I did enjoy the movie Gladiator and “Berserk” is one of my favorite mangas, but I can’t really get into this show. Also, I was flipping through the station and saw a previous episode of what looked like some guy getting molten fucking metal poured on top of his head. Is that what happened? And if so, good fucking lord that sucks a hairy ape’s infested penis!!!
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jun 13, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
i've only seen the first 5 eps
but so far its much closer to Gladiator (thematically) than LOTR
Tune every heart and every voice,
Bid every care withdraw;
Let all with one accord rejoice,
In praise of Old Nassau.
In praise of Old Nassau we sing,
Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!
Our hearts will give while we shall live,
Three cheers for Old Nassau.
by Anthony Pace on Jun 13, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
It's awesome...
it’s fantasy, but not bullshit magic and fairies and elves type fantasy- more reality based with a touch of the fantastical/supernatural. It’s brutal and has no predictable, Hollywood, happy endings. You have to stick with it through the first 4 or 5 episodes, as it’s mostly character development and acclimating you to the world, but once it establishes its characters and plot lines, it gets insane and has some great story-telling.
And yes- the dude got killed by having molten gold poured over his head. One of the best deaths ever written.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 13, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
what's with beating a puffy dead horse response?
"No man dies for what he knows to be true. Men die for what they want to be true, for what some terror in their hearts tells them is not true."
I hate that kid. Also, I respect the actor--should get nominated, at the very least.
It takes a special kind of actor to give life to such a loathsome tweener.
by Unabomberman on Jun 13, 2011 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
A Lannister always pays his debts
Wish this was slowed down so we can see the follow through, maybe even add the other slap and the crying afterwards.
The age of the mega-heavyweight only existed as an idea
And not a very well-informed one.
by simpsycho on Jun 13, 2011 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I am very amused at the fact that many of the same people who were having a fit over the need for a cruiserweight division are celebrating the demise of monster heavyweights and acting victorious on behalf of the very same people they said couldnt compete.
"Every time I talk on the phone with someone who doesn’t know me, they call me "ma’am"." .....cut to a couple months later....... "You can alter that sig now. I spoke with someone I know on the phone and she repeatedly addressed me as a female. Fuck." - Scott C. Broussard
...
".He still has a ground game that seems heavily dependent on lying still and hoping that his opponent won't notice his very kimura-able arm..."
by dancingChicken on Jun 13, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
...
Fas est et ab hoste doceri. (Right it is to be taught, even by the enemy) ~Ovid
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jun 13, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel like I’m being trolled here. Despite their weights, Junior is taller and fights “longer” than Carwin, effectively making him the bigger man in their fight. Carwin and Lesnar are both shorter than most NBA point guards, the fact that their body type was ever exalted as the future of the division is laughable. Perhaps the pundits should have considered looking at K-1, where properly proportioned athletes in the 6’4"-6’11" range (like Overeem) have always been dominant, rather than contriving their own uninformed vision of the future based around a couple of aging wrestlers who are built like Buff Bagwell.
by smoogy2 on Jun 13, 2011 3:41 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
you're not trolling,
I think you’re bringing up a great point.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 13, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
K-1, where properly proportioned athletes in the 6’4"-6’11" range (like Overeem) have always been dominant
I think Andy Hug and Ernesto Hoost beg to differ.
By the way, neither Carwin or Lesnar is built like Buff Bagwell. Not even remotely.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 13, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ok, 6’3" to 6’11" then. Hug was of a relatively slight build for K-1, but he won in 1996 when the largest opposition he had to face was Hoost and Mike Bernardo. Hoost wasn’t the tallest fighter, but he was built like a brick shithouse without superfluous muscle mass. The last 8 titles in the modern K-1 era have all been claimed by Bonjasky, Schilt and Overeem… fighters who are tall with good reach.
Luckily for them, they are tall guys who don’t have to worry about being scooped up by those long legs. There’s a reason most wrestlers are as wide as they are tall…
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 13, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
True.
Yep and their was a reason why my man Semmy Schilt had problems in MMA. His long frame and high vertical stance made him prone to take downs from those even without wrestling backgrounds.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Jun 13, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
To my eye
JDS is a Mega-Heavyweight.
Dude looked stacked.
Learn JiuJitsu, it's fun.
Lebron James is a front runner. Better than M.J. my a**.
And of course
That means he’s on steroids. Case closed.
Fas est et ab hoste doceri. (Right it is to be taught, even by the enemy) ~Ovid
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jun 13, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Junior is the perfect size.
Tall and long at 6’4, but well built and lean at 240. Fast and agile, yes still strong and powerful. Great hips and naturally athletic, rock solid chin… dude is as close to perfect as you get at heavyweight.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jun 14, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel like...
as MMA becomes a viable option as a professional sport for world class athletes, and the next generation of athletes who trained MMA as kids (along with playing football and basketball) start filtering in, that huge dudes who could have been Offensive or D-lineman or power forwards will be a large part of the HW division. It’s not just size- it’s athleticism as well, and when you have guys like the elite big men in football who are freakishly quick and coordinated (like the guys who created a standard that Lesnar and Carwin couldn’t match in NFL training camps) choosing to go pro in MMA and start getting paid right away, as opposed to being some University’s indentured servant for a few years and not being guaranteed of a payday in the NFL, we’ll see the size and skill level continue to rise in the HW division.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 13, 2011 4:04 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I like it.
I put a rec on it.
as opposed to being some University’s indentured servant for a few years
Learn JiuJitsu, it's fun.
Lebron James is a front runner. Better than M.J. my a**.
It's all about that $krilla
Tune every heart and every voice,
Bid every care withdraw;
Let all with one accord rejoice,
In praise of Old Nassau.
In praise of Old Nassau we sing,
Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!
Our hearts will give while we shall live,
Three cheers for Old Nassau.
by Anthony Pace on Jun 13, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
choosing to go pro in MMA and start getting paid right away
Unfortunately, the influx of top level athletes will probably also mean it will take longer to develop the skills necessary to compete at the highest level, so the more talent the sport draws in, the harder they’ll have to work before they get that first big payday.
Fas est et ab hoste doceri. (Right it is to be taught, even by the enemy) ~Ovid
by Damnatio Memoriae on Jun 13, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
not for the high-level athletes out there....
that have been training their whole lives- and not just wrestlers, but kids growing up now watching the sport (it’s more mainstream right now than it’s ever been and will continue to grow) and training MMA- when I was a kid, everyone was taking Tae Kwon Do at McDojos- MMA is becoming the after school martial art of choice in suburbia. It’s not quite there yet, but that’s what I see happening. Once it does, it’s only a matter of time before the elite amongst those talents find their way to the bigs.
"This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They’re back! There’s no choice left. And I’m ready for war."
by John Danaher's Hair on Jun 13, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
That has always been my feeling as well
As the sport evolves, more top level athletes will get involved. Another reason why I think there needs to be more than 1 place to ply the trade.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
In all fairness, had Lesnar or Carwin started training MMA during or immediately after their amateur wrestling careers they would have been entirely different fighters.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 14, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Guys like Schaub and Mitrione
coming into MMA and enjoying good success right off the bat is very encouraging IMO. I don’t know if a 230 lb cruiserweight division will ever be necessary, but it definitely isn’t right now. Guys like Randy and Fedor just need to be fighting guys their own size instead of skilled behemoths like Lesnar and Bigfoot.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jun 14, 2011 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
This makes the HW division interesting
Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.
by Urijah Bieber on Jun 14, 2011 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Snowden will change his toon when "The big Arisevern" aka "Diesel" aka "M.D.E." drops to 265!!
If you can't wow them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
Shaq could splice off a hole J.J. Barea from himself and still not make 265
Tune every heart and every voice,
Bid every care withdraw;
Let all with one accord rejoice,
In praise of Old Nassau.
In praise of Old Nassau we sing,
Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!
Our hearts will give while we shall live,
Three cheers for Old Nassau.
by Anthony Pace on Jun 13, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Shaq is much more familiar with the Dulce de Leche diet
Say it ain't Cho
by Sean in Vancouver on Jun 13, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Something we should all be watching this week
"Serious sport is war minus the shooting."
George Orwell
Speaking as a guy who wanted cruiserweight
Cain teaching Brock to disco made me very glad they were in the same weightclass.
http://fightdrinker.blogspot.com
by some schmuck in texas on Jun 13, 2011 4:42 PM EDT reply actions
As Brock and history has shown
‘Goliath’ never equates to a tougher chin.
It wasn't Brock's chin that betrayed him
It was his mental fortitude and technical defense
Tune every heart and every voice,
Bid every care withdraw;
Let all with one accord rejoice,
In praise of Old Nassau.
In praise of Old Nassau we sing,
Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!
Our hearts will give while we shall live,
Three cheers for Old Nassau.
by Anthony Pace on Jun 13, 2011 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. Brock withstood monster punches in two straight fights.
He’s like Nogueira without the MONSTER balls.
by Unabomberman on Jun 13, 2011 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right
I am old and was compiling the two. Chin and heart to me go hand in hand. On a straight chin basis, the stance still stands. Fairly sure Overeem’s chin is no better than when Liddell knocked him out, no matter how big he becomes.
by Anothermmafan on Jun 13, 2011 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
There's been a lot of talking
that cutting down too low had a big impact on his chin at lhw.
Bob Sapp vs. Rodrigo Nogueira Bob "The Beast" Sapp is 400 pounds, and if 300 pounds of it aren’t pure steroids, then someone has got to be fucking kidding. -SeanBaby
Fairly sure Overeem’s chin is no better than when Liddell knocked him out, no matter how big he becomes.
Neck muscle strength has been shown to be the primary determinant of "chin" – and few would argue that Reem’s neck muscles are not far stronger now than they were in his LHW days.
Cutting weight definitely affects endurance and even chin if the rehydration is not done correctly, and possibly even if it is. I can’t find it at the moment, but I believe it was Luke Thomas who provided me with some medical research indicating that the brain was adversely affected even when proper rehydration appeared to have taken place.
Defense certainly plays a role, particularly keeping one’s chin properly tucked, which Reem does a better job at now.
Being able to have one’s jaw set closed makes a difference as well for shots taken on the chin – something Reem struggled badly with when he gassed at LHW.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 14, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
remy who has not ever been a renowned puncher
dropped him by clipping him with a single punch and hurt him badly. He can improve his chin so much but he established a firm pattern during his career that has carried into the Ubereem days. Huge muscular guys who bulk up can also gas. He doesn’t rely on a lot of movement in K1 and hides behind his gloves. With MMA gloves on both sets of hands involved in an MMA fight, good luck.
Fedor, over hand right. Good night.
Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.
by Urijah Bieber on Jun 15, 2011 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
While not exactly renowned for being heavy-handed, do you think there are more than a handful of top MMA fighters who hit harder than Remy? As for the rest,
yes, he has been KO’d numerous times as a LHW, but generally when he was completely gassed.
Although he has had years to work on his conditioning, during his current 10-fight MMA streak since his last loss almost 4 years ago, only the Cro Cop, Rogers and Buentello fights have lasted longer than 1:50, so it remains to be seen how deep his tank really is these days.
I share your possible concerns about his defense, but I rather doubt Werdum will be the one to put it to the test.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
Never send sheep to kill a wolf.
by The American Ronin on Jun 15, 2011 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Just look at boxing as your crystall ball.
Guys like the brothers Klitschko have been ruling for a while. just giant, boring bears.
Going at this from a different angle
if the thought is that the Mega-HW guys aren’t in good enough shape/athletic enough, instead of splitting the weight class, why don’t we lower the weight limit and force them to get into better shape?
Say it ain't Cho
by Sean in Vancouver on Jun 13, 2011 5:17 PM EDT reply actions
Things have to be looked in perspective as well. Lesnar and Carwin are two behemoths in the UFC, but also started their fighting careers at a relatively late age in comparison to other fighters, and that cost Lesnar as he could not take a punch, and it may have effected Carwin especially in speed. I think that assessing Mega Heavyweights would be done better with Mega Heavyweights who started MMA younger.
As far as Overeem goes, I don’t know if he’ll be their last hope. There’s also Antonio Silva out there. However, how high does Overeem need to go in order to validate these Mega Heavyweights? Is it a case where he would have to win the SF Grand Prix, or would he have to go higher and win the UFC Heavyweight Title? While Heavyweight is thin, I do believe that there will have more fighters in the future that cut to 265 and perform at a high level
Check out the C&D Channel on YouTube for MMA reviews, predictions, analysis, and other MMA related content.
excellent point
At this point, a lot of people are getting into mma as a secondary career, or as an alternate form of conditioning for their primary sport.
Say it ain't Cho
by Sean in Vancouver on Jun 13, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Like the Duffster?
He’s a big guy, but he’s not doing so hot right now. Maybe in the future.
by Unabomberman on Jun 13, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s no shame in losing to The Reem on short notice, but Duffee still needs a lot of work though but could get better in the future. Outside of Overeem, Konrad, and Bigfoot, I can’t really think of too many other high-level Heavyweights or prospects who fit into that Mega Heavyweight category.
Check out the C&D Channel on YouTube for MMA reviews, predictions, analysis, and other MMA related content.
So what are you saying?
Bob Sapp’s days of dominance are over? NEVER
Somewhere a massive guy that we haven’t heard of yet is training, and he will burst onto the scene cutting weight, and destroying smaller HWs, and then we will all be screaming about big HWs again. It might be a few years away, but it will happen.
So uh, how about boxing?
I ain’t much one to follow boxing, but I’ve heard the heavyweight division is poop from a butt. How many “Mega-heavyweights” are there and do they rule the division?
Nah
the big dudes in HW these duys are guys like Lennix or the Klitschkos and they tend to weigh in under 250 lbs, somewhere in the 240s.
Most top HW boxers historically have been a good bit smaller than that even.
But
I think the Klitschkos have put the stamp that the smaller guys simply can’t compete with their length/power (has either one been in remote trouble since Brewster in 2004?), and that will get an exclamation point once Wladimir smokes Haye. Vitali really seems underrated to me btw, he’s KOed practically everyone he faced and the 2 losses he has on his record have come from injuries when he was ahead on the scorecards.
Not afraid to nitpick
True
but “big” here means in the 240lbs and tall (which carries a whole other set of drawbacks in MMA). It doesn’t mean cutting down to 265—to be sure the Klitschkos really know how to use their size, and it is a decided advantage.
I think what might be a little forgotten is that todays HWs ARE bigger than the elites in years past— Fedor and Big Nog aren’t as big as JDS or Cain. But (Alastair may prove me wrong) the top guys aren’t at 265 right now, and history suggests this is no accident.
If you the mean the era of substituting size for technique is over, then yes, you're right
But calling it an era would be giving it too much credit. Lesnar and Carwin were able to make the most of their punching power and wrestling ability, but outside of that, they had no gameplan.
If you want an example of a super heavyweight fighter with a refined game, refer to Bigfoot Silva’s performance in the Fedor fight. He cut to 265lbs and was pretty lean for his size. He came into the fight even heavier but well-conditioned and was able to make the most of that size using his well-developed striking and jiu jitsu. He had a gameplan for beating Fedor, and he carried it out to the letter. It was a superb performance, and he won on his own merit—not because he was just another big guy like Hong Man Choi.
This
But Silva was nearly finished by a smaller, faster fighter who got off first in Mike Kyle a fight before that. Being an oaf has a serious downside.
Clay Guida ensured he is now and forever the worlds most exciting and active boring fighter.
by Urijah Bieber on Jun 15, 2011 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Uhhhh....Mike Tyson anyone?
Might I chime in here and add that Mike Tyson may have been the most dominant fighter of all time in his heyday in any fighting sport and in his heyday he was 200-205 lbs. Case closed, mega heavies lose….
I’ll see your Klitschos in their prime and raise you a Tyson and Holyfield in their prime. Thought it would also be worth mentioning that Evander Holyfield was a light heavy weight before becoming a heavyweight. There are only a handful of great mega heavy weights in any fighting sport that I can think of. Brock IS NOT one of them so he is definitely NOT on the list. Just because some of you guys have a boner for big dudes doesn’t mean they can all fight, sorry!
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