UFC 131 Results: Brainless Judging Prominent Despite Cageside Monitors
by Leland Roling on Jun 12, 2011 10:00 AM EDT
in UFC Analysis
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Back on May 11th, the Vancouver Athletic Commission approved a motion by the UFC to allow the use of cageside monitors by judges to more accurately view the action inside the Octagon. The move was the product of constant complaints from fans, media, and even Dana White himself about the rash of bad judging we've seen consistently over the past few years. Many fans, including myself, felt the approval would have an immediate impact on the scoring of bouts that headed to decision. Unfortunately, the judging at UFC 131 last night was bizarrely inaccurate across the board despite the installation of monitors.
Judge Dave Hagen's dissenting opinions were the hardest to swallow. Hagen turned in a score of 30-27 for Darren Elkins in the opening bout of the evening while fellow judges Bill Mahood and Jason Darrah scored the bout 29-28 in the same direction. Nearly every single MMA media outlet scored the bout in favor of Omigawa, giving him rounds two and three while scoring round one for Elkins.
Elkins' work rate, a strategy that has helped Leonard Garcia steal a number of decisions, seemed to sway Hagen's vote in the second round despite Omigawa's ability to sneak power shots through Elkins' defenses and batter his face. Mahood and Darrah missed the call on the bout as well, but it isn't unfathomable to see a 29-28 score for Elkins as the second was a very close round if you were simply looking at Elkins' hands flying around Omigawa's head. Hagen's scoring is downright ignorant though, and it's interesting to note that his history doesn't suggest he's a repeat offender.
UFC president Dana White didn't agree with the scoring either, and made sure Omigawa wasn't hurt financially. He tweeted that Omigawa would get his win bonus despite being handed a loss:
Hagen wasn't done however. A couple of hours later, he turned in a score of 30-27 for Kenny Florian when Diego Nunes clearly won the first round in their featherweight tilt on the UFC 131 main card. It was revealed before the bout that Hagen would be judging the fight, and as the scores were read -- most fans jumped to conclusions. Those conclusions ended up being spot on as it was Hagen who scored the bout incorrectly.
I won't solely pick on Dave Hagen. Bill Mahood, who has been known to score bouts correctly for the most part, went along with Hagen in scoring the Poirier vs. Young bout, 30-27. Nelson Hamilton scored the Demian Maia vs. Mark Munoz bout, 30-27 in favor of Munoz, a far cry from what actually happened during the fight. Interestingly enough, Hamilton is the man responsible for creating the half-point system. Perhaps improving your ability to judge a fight needs to happen first before suggesting how we improve it from a scoring standpoint.
Monitors are a means to helping judges see the action. It's a move that needed to happen, but it isn't a cure for the misinterpretation of the scoring criteria. The Omigawa bout was the perfect opportunity for judges to view the action with a cageside monitor, watching Omigawa orchestrate a pinpoint striking game in the second round. Unfortunately, none of the judges seemed to see what we all saw.
But a bout like Munoz vs. Maia showed the bigger problem. The old guard in the judging world continues to see what we don't see. Nearly every single MMA fan who I interacted with on Twitter scored the bout sensibly, yet a veteran judge like Nelson Hamilton turned in a score of 30-27? Monitors may help judges, but it will only help the competent ones.
As I stated in a piece in October, the ultimate problem is the older generation running the show. Newer judges must be given the opportunity to prove themselves. Ninety percent of the hardcore MMA fanbase could judge better than the dinosaurs currently in place, and last night's event was a clear indication of that statement. Monitors can help judges see the angles that can't be seen from their seats, but it won't cure idiotic interpretations of the scoring criteria.
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29-28 Omigawa
29-28 Poirer
30–27 Soszynski
30-27 Cerrone
29-28 Munoz
29-28 Florian
30-26 dos Santos
http://unintelligentdefense.blogspot.com
by MattParker117 on Jun 12, 2011 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
what is going on with the judges dont they have to actualy train to become one?
by The Evil Dr Pork Chop on Jun 12, 2011 10:27 AM EDT reply actions
Not really.
Everyone was so high on the monitor issue but it’s not like judges couldn’t just look up at the big screens to see the action during fights before. The problem never was that they couldn’t see it was that the scoring system is so damn vague and the judges aren’t very good at what they do. You can’t use old boxing judges for MMA fights and you can’t bring in new judges unless you train them properly first.
yeah, you can give them screens, but they’ll still be incompetent.
the scariest judging story i heard was the one Rogan told on his podcast about a fighter that had a kimura applied from the bottom on his opponent and a female judge turned to the other and asked ‘what is that, what is he doing?’ that says a tremendous amount about the state of judging in MMA.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 12, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
and did anyone else catch roy nelson slaggin off the ref in the jds-carwin fight
i smell roy nelson vs shane carwin makes sense
by The Evil Dr Pork Chop on Jun 12, 2011 10:28 AM EDT reply actions
lol...
Not sure who I was talking to, but I defending my title on junkie, I went 12 for 12 again, but I’m embarrassed to say it because I took elkins.
by psuwrestler99 on Jun 12, 2011 10:34 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I have no problem with Elkins and Munoz winning
As both fights were really close (I thought Omigawa won and Munoz won) but the 30-27 scores were just downright dumb. It wasn’t like there was “really techincal” stuff going on either in those rounds. one fight just hit the other more lol.
The judging was horrific.
Quod licet Iovi non licet bovi.
by Wrestling Uber Alles on Jun 12, 2011 10:38 AM EDT reply actions
Something needs to happen
I didn’t catch the Omigawa fight, but Hamilton’s card in Munoz-Maia was truly awful. Munoz was completely outclassed and rocked in the first round. I have no idea what Hamilton thinks he saw, but he’s either crazy or blind or both.
I don’t know how you put pressure on commissions to train judges better, but this crap is really dangerous to the sport we all love, especially with more and more fights going to decision.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jun 12, 2011 11:01 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
how to be a mma judge in California
1. Attend a California Amateur Mixed Martial Arts Organization (CAMO) approved training course. According to the CAMO website on May 6, 2010, the Certification of Officials for Mixed Martial Arts National Development (COMMAND) two day course in Valencia, California, was the only approved program in North America. In 2010 the two day course cost $400, which does not include motel accommodations or meals. In 2010 the Mariott Santa Clarita offered a special rate for COMMAND participants.
2. Pass a technique test, written test, and practical application test administered at the training course immediately after instruction by the instructor. A passing score is defined as 90 percent correct answers on each of the three tests. Failure to pass means that you must retake the entire COMMAND course to obtain your amateur MMA judge’s license.
3. Go to the CAMO website and click on “Become a Referee, Judge, Inspector, or Timekeeper” and fill out your name, gender, date of birth, phone number, address, and e-mail to create an account and online profile.
4. Download a clean recent digital photograph to your account by clicking on the download photo button, then clicking on browse, and selecting the picture from your saved pictures on your computer.
5. Download the official’s packet from the pop-up screen, available after creating or logging into an account. Fill out your name, address, phone number, e-mail, details of any financial interest that you have in MMA events, past criminal convictions, experience, and other basic information. Mail this packet along with the application fee, which was $40 in 2010.
6. Attend 10 events (CAMO can assist with scheduling), and fill out dummy scorecards and compare with the scorecards of the judges. The head judge or other bout official will determine whether your scoring was consistent with that of the official judges. If so, he will submit a recommendation to CAMO that you be awarded an official one-year amateur MMA judge’s license. It not, he will provide you with guidance and you will need to fill out dummy scorecards at additional events to receive your amateur MMA judge’s license.
7. Call the California State Athletic Commissioner’s office after judging amateur MMA for three years to request an application to obtain a license to judge professional MMA, if desired. Complete the basic information, and send to the address on the form.
http://www.ehow.com/how_6508200_become-mma-judge-california.html#ixzz1P4gMDTkE
Yep that’s right you have to take a two day course and attend 10 events to turn in dummy cards that match other judges at events (other judges that we are already wondering if are incompetent) and you to can become a MMA judge too.
by who me on Jun 12, 2011 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yep. That number six looks like a bad thing with the consistant bit.
I wonder if it has anything to do with cageside sounds or something like that. Some sensory data that we don’t get on TV that sways them. That doesn’t really cover when Dana says that it was terrible, since he is right there too. But maybe there is something there that is throwing them off?
I dunno. As much as I like to think that everyone is an idiot. I have to figure that there is some disconnect.
I think that is too harsh actually. Not the two day course, 10 events thing. But the 3 years of judging amateur mma bouts. It should be x amount of amateur events, 20 or so. And if your scores were consistent with more experience judges then you can apply for pro bouts.
I am free because I choose to be so-Me
I would be quite hesitant to source "Ehow" for how to be a judge
There was some dispute as to CAMO’s role in CA, but still, what that list is saying is that one of their approved judges has to sign off on your 10 instances of “shadow judging”, which isn’t really an ineffective process.
Here’s the criteria for becoming a judge in New Jersey:
"You have to have some background in jiu-jitsu, wrestling, judo and/or muay thai. Then, you have to attend a seminar. At the end of that seminar, you have to score rounds of past fights that I have selected on DVD. You start as a shadow inspector in our amateur program. Then, you work your way up to a chance at being a shadow judge. As a shadow judge, you score as the fourth judge at amateur shows, your scores are collected but they don’t count. Then, if your scores are good and after shadowing for a while, you will get a shot as an actual amateur judge. From there, you score bouts for years and may work your way into the pro ranks."
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 13, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Thankfully there was only one true robbery
The rogue 30-27 cards didn’t effect the outcome of two close fights, but they’re certainly representative of a much larger issue, i.e. that I’d be happier picking any three random BE readers to score fights than having athletic commissions pick them.
I mean, it was just so obvious that Maia and Nunes won their respective Round 1’s. They weren’t even close rounds. So sad.
Oh, and as many Dana Haters as there are out there...
You gotta give the guy props for having the balls to speak out against bad judging and then to pay out of the event revenue to a guy who didn’t “earn” it. Dana does have a sense of (street) justice; I’ll say that for the guy.
by PackMMA on Jun 12, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
while i agree it could always be worse, one robbery is waaaay too fucking much.
by Victor Rodriguez on Jun 12, 2011 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn't call that a robbery at all
It all comes down to the 2nd round, and though I scored it for Omigawa, it is extremely plausible to score it for Elkins, which would give him a win via 29-28.
So “robbery” is highly dramatized; the real issue is the 30-27.
By the way, I’m fucking pissed if I’m Darren Elkins. I just beat a top ranked FW in my debut and even the boss is calling it a “robbery”.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 13, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Three random BE readers are extremely biased
And then God created Saturn ... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it. ... Always a ninja
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It’s quite possible that the fix is in. How much do these judges make? They are hired by the commission which means the UFC would not be at fault so at least that’s good. I mean the error of judgement by some of these judges is atrocious. Average fans are able to judge better. Is it really all that difficult to tell who’s winning and who’s not? I question that , a lot. Some of these fights really seem to be pushing it.
by p123 on Jun 12, 2011 11:29 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
It's really not
“Fixing” implies a bias to award a winner for a beneficial reason. Unless you think the judges are putting money down on a fighter and scoring it for him, turning in a piss-poor decision is the worst possible thing a judge can do for his reputation, career, and credibility.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 13, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Just as terrible
Only one judge scored the Dos Santos fight 30-26. How could anybody not score that first round 10-8 (or even 10-7) Dos Santos?
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jun 12, 2011 11:58 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I’m ok with that. 10-8 s are generally reserved for complete round domination ala Brock/Carwin , Edgar/Maynard 2 ( 1st rd ) . I don’t think they have ever done 10-7 at least not normally. It’s more of another flaw used to prevent draws. To get a 10-8 you basically have to finish a fighter it’s a bit nuts, but I get it, and I’m ok with that flaw. 10-8 / 9/10 9/10 is a draw so I think that’s why Mma shies away from 10-8 .
by p123 on Jun 12, 2011 12:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Dos Santos knocked him down and nearly finished him, and Carwin did nothing in the round before that. What else would you need to do to get a 10-8 round? Kill the guy then give him CPR and beat on him some more?
by Trust Doesn't Rust on Jun 12, 2011 12:47 PM EDT reply actions
No, even with my more generous use of 10-8 and 10-10 rounds for my personal scoring system(basically what was proposed on BE a while back, only judge effective offense) I still only give that round a 10-8. The only 10-7 round I can think of is Jann Finny vs Cyborg.
I am free because I choose to be so-Me
I can't believe it but there are judges out there worse than Cecil Peoples
It’s true, the world is indeed coming to an end…
The lack of respect for the occupation is one of the worst aspects of this.
It’s literally gross neglect. The judge is too busy to be bothered with being educated about the sport so they perpetually shit on it out of ignorance.
Completely ridiculous that there is no regulation for the judges. As if their actions have no consequence.
So we’re up to the top 4 shit pile judges ever:
Cecil Peoples (existing laughing stock)
Doug Crosby (King of the 50-45)
Nelson Hamilton
Dave Hagen
Does anyone know if these asshats were just as terrible when scoring boxing events? If not, then it’s obvious that they can’t be bothered with learning to do their job. In which case, maybe it would help to draft a document highlighting their follies, get a ton of fan support behind it and present it to the commissions who are responsible for putting these asshats cage side.
The worst effect of poor judging in MMA is that guys on the smaller circuits might get overlooked by a bigger organization because of a judge’s incompetence. To further the point, in the UFC, this can impact contract negotiations, and no matter what, these assholes are getting PAID to take money out of fighters’ pockets.
The dude abides.
Doug Crosby is one of the best judges in MMA
Why don’t fans name good judges? Because they don’t know who they are; they only remember the bad calls.
Crosby has judged well over 100 MMA fights, and call his Edgar x Penn 1 score totally incorrect: he still has over a 99% accuracy ratio. That’s a good judge.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 13, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m glad outrageous scores like 30-27 Muñoz are being discussed even if Muñoz managed to win the last two rounds. Omigawa was clearly robbed though. He battered Elkins head for the last two rounds.
by Carlos Estrada-Ibars Martínez on Jun 12, 2011 5:57 PM EDT reply actions
Simplification
Why not judge as follows:
- clear round – 1×0
- close round – 1×1
It’s much better to just get round rights, before going into the merit of a 10 point scoring.
Most importantly, this is not boxing, throw away the 10 point system.
I like that
I like that a lot.
Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!
by SentientAndroid on Jun 13, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Surely it doesn’t matter what the actual score numbers used are?
1/0 is exactly the same as 10/9.
1/1 is a 10/10.
Any scoring system is basically putting a number of beans in a certain place. Moving counters on an abacus.
Talking of using half points, new systems etc is glossing over the issue IMHO.
The problem is always going to be the human behind the system.
So long as the human puts the right amount if beans in the right place then pretty much any scoring system will work.
That's exactly what the Ten Point is, it doesn't matter what number you use
You can add any value in the world … 100 points, 1 point, 1/2 point, etc.
There are 4 levels by which a fighter can win a round, which, from my post above, are:
10-10: even
10-9: close margin
10-8: clear margin (Ring vs. Head R2)
10-7: undisputable domination, could’ve / should’ve been stopped.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
by Dallas Winston on Jun 13, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
It could be 0-0 (even), 1-0 (close margin), 2-0 (clear margin) and 3-0 (domination).
Where the trouble starts is deciding what defines even, close, clear and dominant so the correct scores can be assigned.
And that’s entirely down to judging and not the scoring system itself.
Although personally I favour a system like amateur boxing where points are accrued rather than removed but it really doesn’t matter so long as the right score is being given to the right guy.
The GOOD: no more "Monitors!" or "Fighters as Judges!" talk as the answer
A few of the judges were fighters, and ALL had monitors. The answer couldn’t be more simple: we need GOOD JUDGES.
Period.
"A philosopher and solitary by instinct, who has found his advantage in standing aside and outside, in patience, in procrastination, in staying behind; as a spirit of daring and experiment that has already lost its way once in every labyrinth of the future; as a soothsayer-bird spirit who looks back when relating what will come." -Nietzsche
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