Manny Pacquiao, Georges St. Pierre, and the Search for Greatness
by Fraser Coffeen on May 9, 2011 1:29 PM EDT
in MMA Editorial
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In his superb book, Ghosts of Manila, Mark Kram breaks down one of boxing's most legendary fights, the 1975 "Thrilla in Manila" between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier. Over the course of the book he presents an interesting argument: that Ali needed Frazier and this fight to cement his legacy as boxing's greatest. Sure, Ali had already shown his technical skill and his superiority over numerous opponents, but it was the challenge of Frazier and the epic scope of this fight that elevated him to the revered status he holds today. Without Joe Frazier, the legend of Muhammad Ali would shine a little less brightly.
In the past few weeks I have found myself reminded of this idea on two separate occasions - first while watching Georges St. Pierre outpoint Jake Shields at UFC 129, and then again this weekend during Manny Pacquiao vs. Shane Mosley. Looking at St. Pierre and Pacquiao, there can be no denying the high level of skill each man possesses. Both inhabit the rarified air of the very elite level in combat sports, and are among the best athletes gracing our sports today. But for each man, right now, something is missing.
Both Georges St. Pierre and Manny Pacquiao need their Joe Frazier.
Now, don't get me wrong, this is not a slight on the skills of either man. In fact, in some ways, it is the exact opposite. Both fighters are so good that they seem untouchable. They've wiped out challenger after challenger and reduced many opponents to fighting to survive instead of fighting to win. But this kind of dominance can only hold fan interest for so long, and for both men, we're seeing those cracks. The GSP backlash has been heating up over the past year of title fight decisions, but it came to a boil after the Shields fight. Most fans decided not to put the blame on the shoulders of the overwhelmed challenger, instead holding up the champion for derision. We're seeing something similar in the wake of Pacquiao vs. Mosley, as fans are frustrated over the one-sided nature of that fight. For now, that frustration is more directed towards Mosley, but how long will it be before Pacquiao becomes the target?
Of course, both men can turn this around, and they can turn it around in just one fight. For an example, look towards another pound for pound top player - UFC middleweight champion Anderson Silva. After bursting on to the UFC and laying waste to the competition, Silva was held up to these high standards of greatness. Then came the Cote, Leites, and Maia fights. Like GSP and Pac, Silva was dominant, but fans were angry, prompting numerous tirades against the champion. But Silva found his Joe Frazier, and he found it in the form of Chael Sonnen. Sonnen pushed Silva, forcing the champion into the greatest trouble of his UFC run, and forcing him to show the inner strength that makes him a champion. More importantly, he forced Silva into a great fight for the ages. Silva's last minute triangle will surely be one of the defining moments in his MMA career, a moment of pure excitement.
Ultimately, that is what many fans are missing from St. Pierre and Pacquiao's latest fights - excitement. Both are showing world class skill, but we are starting to ask - is that skill enough to truly be the greatest? Was it skill alone that put Ali on that highest pedestal? Kram says it wasn't, and I agree. Great champions need great challengers. Today's matchmakers need to find the Joe Fraziers that will allow Georges St. Pierre and Manny Pacquiao to display that greatness.
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Both fighters need a fight that rises above the MMA/Boxing crowd and culture.
None of GSP or Pacmans fight make you feel like you’re watching history in the making. They are dull and predictable and both Pacman and GSP lately have not even been finishing fights!
Margarito and his camp paid a heavy price for not throwing in the towel that day since his eye is still messed up. But I’d bet Margarito would do the same again. Fighters are awesome.
“It’s hard to think that he’ll have to maybe quit like this when there’s still million-dollar paydays out there for him,” Garcia said. “I always tell these guys to invest their money when they get it, because that next big fight might never come. This is a big hit. He’s a close friend.”
Margarito and his camp paid a heavy price for not throwing in the towel that day since his eye is still messed up. But I’d bet Margarito would do the same again. Fighters are awesome.
Strangely enough, Koscheck and AKA are paying that exact same price right now as well. It really has been easy to draw parallels between these two fighters lately.
"Who are you and how the hell did you get in here?"
"I'm a locksmith... and i'm a locksmith."
The reaction has been quite different, though
Pacquio was fairly universally praised for his performance, while GSP’s was a “jabfest” with him showing “no killer instinct”.
The hatred for Koscheck is understandably less real than for Margarito, so that may explain part of it. I think MMA fans are just more fickle, probably because they’re so used to the less refined defense evident outside the top WWs and LWs.
by paythefighters on May 10, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
That's bullshit.
And Fraser- I would argue GSP and Manny HAVE had their Fraziers, just not on the same level of exposure. Hughes was Georges’ Frazier; he beat St. Pierre decisively in the first match, and GSP won the second and third fights decisively.
Marquez is Manny’s Frazier, and I have no doubt they will fight a third time.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on May 10, 2011 7:24 AM EDT up reply actions
What exactly qualifies an opponent as being a "Joe Frasier"?
Isn’t that something you might decide retrospectively, years maybe decades later? Is Chael Sonnen a Joe Frazier cause he was controlling for 4+ rounds before getting caught? That seems kind of ludicrous.
Also I think there is a large distance between Pacquiao and GSP in terms of what they’ve achieved in their respective sports. Pacman has gone up 8 weight classes (albeit boxing weight classes) while GSP isn’t willing to fight A silva at 185 even thought he walks around at well above 185lbs.
by Robust23 on May 9, 2011 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I don't think it's ludicrous at all
The central point is that we need to see these guys taken to their very limits as fighters, and STILL triumph over adversity in order to cement them in our minds as all-time greats. People (myself included) thought Silva was going to truck Chael in the first round, but when he weathered a 23-minute beating only to win in the end, it elevated him as a fighter in the minds of fans.
In many ways it’s WHO these guys fight, but HOW they fight that matters. We want to see them challenged. We want to see them hurt, and pushed, and still win, and that’s something we haven’t really witnessed yet.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on May 9, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
edit button
it’s NOT who these guys fight, but how they fight that matters.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on May 9, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think so
By that logic, Serra would be GSP’s Frazier.
The central point is that they need an equally powerful rival, like Ali/Frazier, Magic/Bird, etc.
Sonnen is no Frazier. Frazier was an undefeated KO artist leading up to his fight with Ali (that he won). Sonnen is a one dimensional MMA fighter (granted he is very good at that one dimension), vulnerable to subs, and was a heavy underdog coming into the Silva fight. He shocked everyone and battered Silva, true, but that in by itself does not make him Silva’s Frazier.
The answer to me, is simple. Just as Mayweather and Pacquiao were made for each other, so are GSP and Silva.
by Pantherhare on May 9, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
manny has already had classic fights with morales,marquez and barrera its floyd who needs to challenge himself against a great fighter
by pong102 on May 9, 2011 1:12 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
also don’t insult joe frazier by claiming sonnen is anyway like him
by pong102 on May 9, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
Pong said it all. Does the writer realise Pacquiao had a fantastic trilogy with Erik Morales, all below 135 pounds? Pacquiao was a great before he became a mainstream media attraction.
Pac has been great for a long time, but does he really have a lasting legacy I think is the point. Some would say obviously he does, but when his career is over and you ask the general public who are fans of the sport what that moment was what will they say? The author has it right imo, Pac for all of his greatness doesn’t have a true defining legacy moment as of yet.
The same thing is there for GSP as well just like the article states. He has had some extremely dominate fights, but where are the ones that people will talk about in thirty years when they talk about him being a great of the sport? Where are the fights that people will actually want to watch again?
by Empty Thoughts on May 9, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, I’m with this. Being The Greatest is partly about providing those iconic moments, and while Pac has some GREAT fights, none of them have reached that iconic level. Fedor’s legacy has already suffered from this as well – because many people didn’t see his fights as they happened, he doesn’t have many iconic fights. And so people look down on his legacy.
And Pong – I have nothing but respect for Joe Frazier, and I think Chael Sonnen is just not a very nice person. Frazier was a superior fighter too. But still, Sonnen is so Silva’s Frazier. We must accept it, sad though it may be.
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by Fraser Coffeen on May 9, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Case in point
because of the epic Ali-Frazier wars (and the Foreman fight, to be fair) most people feel like Ali was the best boxer of all time. Which is insane, but it goes to show what have a great foil can do for your legacy.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
GSP's legacy is nowhere near Pacquiao's yet
Pacquiao started his fighting career at 106 pounds. He’s rocketed through divisions, consistently fighting bigger and stronger champions and defeating them all. GSP would have to not only defeat Anderson Silva, but then go on to defeat Jon Bones Jones in order to even be in the same conversation. In Pacquiao we are talking about a fighter that Bob Arum says is the greatest fighter he’s ever seen, and considering that he promoted Ali back in the day, he has solid ground for comparison.
Pacquiao has already mowed down a murderer’s row of future hall-of-famers … a great many of whom had massive size advantages. GSP only has Matt Hughes and an undersized BJ Penn on his resume …the rest of the guys are also-rans.
Also-rans? You could argue that Pacquiao’s recent opponents have been at the tail end of their career, so it’s not obvious that they are better than GSP’s opponents (I’d actually say Hughes and Penn are his less impressive victories). The latter are still at the top of the division, and many of them had size advantages over GSP (but aren’t in different weight classes because MMA doesn’t have 3% increments).
Of course it’s not to the same degree as Pacquiao, but GSP never fought before he filled out his frame, so it’s stupid to say that he has to beat Jones to be at the same level of Pacquiao. If Pacquio never fought below 135, do think he could have gone up to 175? Hell no. Would it have diminished his career? I don’t think so, other than having the record of titles in the most weight classes.
by paythefighters on May 10, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Good points about GSP never fighting before filling up. Had he fought professionally at 16 years old, he probably would’ve done it at 155.
And I can’t see how Hughes and Penn would be amongst GSP’s less impressive victories. Penn had won their first fight according to many, so many expected him to win their second fight too. And before his fights with GSP, Penn had only lost to Hughes and Machida (!!!) in the previous 5-6 years. And Hughes was still very close to his best back in 2007 when they last fought, and he was the longtime champ when GSP beat him in their second meeting. So I don’t understand what you meant by that, at all.
I say “less impressive” because I don’t think that even in their prime they would be champs at WW today, even if GSP wasn’t there.
IMO, what GSP did against Fitch and Alves are more impressive given that Alves looked almost as good as GSP against Hughes and Koscheck (and would arguably beat Penn as well), and that Fitch hasn’t lost to anyone else.
by paythefighters on May 10, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Okami
may be Anderson’s “Frazier”. I don’t want to see Sonnen anywhere near a title shot until he can display some basic fucking submission defense.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on May 10, 2011 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions
For straight boxing fans
I think his defining moments are easy to identify. The 2nd and 3rd Morales fights saw his evolution as a 2 handed fighter. He was pushed to the limit in the 2nd Marquez fight. He shocked the world in the Dela Hoya fight (Oscar was the favorite coming in) and his signature KO of Hatton was arguably the most spectacular image of him. Most of the “general public”, who probably saw him for the very first time in the DLH fight, would think that he has never struggled. He has been embarrassed by Morales and Marquez before. But the way he performed better in the rematches will always be noted by the fans. While i must admit the last few fights are less satisfying, i think it’s unfair to imply that because not as many people saw the earlier fights, they are not iconic. But if you’ve been there since the unbelievable smashing of Barrera at featherweight you there it is very clear what his defining moments are.
THIS.
Plus that unreal streak of going up and winning titles at 8 weight classes against dudes who are much bigger than him… He’s the absolute biggest star in combat sports today, and will be remembered as one of the greatest of all time. I really don’t know what else to say about people who say that his legacy might not be in tact. Even if he retires today, his legacy will be there.
Pacquiao isn’t Fedor, and he isn’t GSP…. Seriously, that’s not even a close comparison.
by Anton Tabuena on May 9, 2011 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions
BJ Penn could have been that guy for Georges
After the first match was so close I think everyone expected a classic in the rematch and what they got was one of the most one sided title fights I’ve ever seen in the sport.
www.hottopicwithphil.com
jon fitch coulda been too
but he got his ass whooped by gsp in the first fight and unimpressively wins fights against everyone else
if the guy was exciting with basically the same resume it would be a whole different story
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
I think Penn was only +160 in the rematch – in other words, more people expected Penn to beat GSP back then than GSP to beat Silva today. Shows you how people thought of Penn as a deadly wrecking machine and GSP as a good but not quite solidified top P4P fighter.
by paythefighters on May 10, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
both are great champs
I feel that manny and gsp are both great champs, but each is a little to blame here. I understand that mannys promoters pick his opponents but he does some say in it. If they making him look bad by picking washed up fighters he needs to step in and do something about it. Gsp at least has been facing the top of his weight class for years but he does need to get his killer instinct back.
I'm not convinced that GSP's killer instinct went anywhere
He dropped Alves (a feat in itself), pounced on him for GnP, and later went for the choke but tore his groin. He bizarrely put aside his ability to damage when going after Hardy, but still went for multiple finishes. Contrary to popular belief, he did go after Koscheck, but if goes on the defensive Koscheck, he’s too fast to get hit by bombs. GSP did try to attack Shields after the headkick, but Shields recovered instantly and knows how to defend.
I think GSP’s heart and aggressiveness is the same, but his opponents changed.
by paythefighters on May 10, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
In the case of GSP, Im not sure Silva is his Frazier. There’s a possibility that Silva would just use his reach and jab the shit out of GSP for 5 rounds. I think what GSP needs is someone who isnt scared of him, someone who eventhough they’re less skilled would rather go out guns blazing than play it safe. That guy is Nick Diaz. Nick wouldnt let GSP play it safe, he’ll push him to the edge and probably get KO’d in the process lol.
Manny just needs an opponent willing to engage him, Floyd may be that person but his reputation is slowly going from eccentric and talented boxer to spoiled brat whos scared of losing his perfect record.
Are our bones not dust?
Is our Blood not Poison?
On my knees in the black light
Praying for Salvation, bitter Redemption
So throw your dice and cast your shadow
You may look away
But your children will not...
by ProfessorBLove on May 9, 2011 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Floyd is largely seen as a defensive boxer, so I wouldn’t expect fireworks there. However, the magnitude of a Pacquiao-Mayweather fight would completely overshadow that and people would probably appreciate the chess match between two fighters with great skill.
Same with GSP-Silva. That fight doesn’t need fireworks, IMO. The first Shogun-Machida fight didn’t have much damage, but it was entertaining because we saw two skilled strikers try to get through each others defenses and it was surprising to see Shogun finally solve Machida. If GSP does the same to Silva, a decision will be fine.
I do agree about Diaz, though. Guys like him are rarely seen as legit contenders before facing Alves, Fitch, and Koscheck (and now Shields), against whom they usually lose. The opportunity is there now to let Diaz bypass those guys and Woodley.
by paythefighters on May 10, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
great article
i agree 100%. i have already posted as much elsewhere.
i have hopes for diaz. he doesn’t seem to have the skills (cough, wrestling) but he has the attitude. i’ve come to believe that’s more important. no one has the skills to take on GSP, on paper. the person to beat him will be someone who accepts that and goes after him guns blazing, the way sonnen did against anderson.
as for manny, well, not sure. the floyd fight of course would be ideal. but i don’t see it happening.
by Clifford J on May 9, 2011 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The thing about Frazier: It’s Ali who makes him “Joe Frazier.” I don’t think he was the best guy Ali fought – but Muhammad surely didn’t want to fight George Foreman again…
by Jonathan Snowden on May 9, 2011 1:23 PM EDT reply actions
No way
Look, Big G was just a nightmare style match up for Joe but Joe was the best fighter not named Clay of that era.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on May 9, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Based on what? I don’t see how it isn’t Foreman.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 9, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
There is more to it than just this
but I think the easiest and clearest way to measure is what Joe was able to do to Ali.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on May 9, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That works for me.
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by Derek Suboticki on May 9, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I have Foreman number two, even though Frazier was my favorite of that era. Foreman not only KOed Norton, Ron Lyle, and Frazier (twice),he made it look easy. I would have even picked him in a rematch with Ali – the Frazier trilogy and the Inoki fiasco had destroyed him at that point.
Yes, I think it’s pretty typical of fans from that era to go Ali-Foreman-Frazier. I think George would have been a pretty big favorite in a second match with Ali.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 9, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
That is typical, I just think it’s wrong. Anyway, I think Ali ducked the second Foreman fight.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
He beat Frazier head to head and beat better fighters more convincingly.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 9, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Like I said, his style was just a nightmare for Joe. As for the rest, there is no way that’s true. Joe beat Ali, who was a better fighter than anyone Foreman ever beat. On top of that, Frazier knocked the shit out of plenty of good fighters in his day outside of Ali.
If you take Ali out of it, George and Joe have a pretty equal and amazing list of wins. If you add the Ali fights it puts Joe convincingly ahead, imo.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
Foreman also beat Ken Norton who also went 1-1 with Ali. Curious if you would rank Ken Norton above Foreman as well?
No
but I do think Norton is underrated.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
Foreman not only KOed Norton, Ron Lyle, and Frazier (twice),he made it look easy.
There was nothing about Foreman’s fight with Ron Lyle that was “easy”. Foreman got dropped multiple times in that fight, and at one point hit the canvas face first and just laid there for a moment like a corpse before somehow getting back to his feet. The fact that Foreman survived and came back to win is amazing.
In the clearing stands a boxer And a fighter by his trade And he carries the reminders Of ev'ry glove that layed him down Or cut him till he cried out In his anger and his shame "I am leaving, I am leaving" But the fighter still remains
Oh for sure on that. Just like it’s the Silva fight that will forever be Sonnen’s greatest mark on the sport.
The thing is, being that Frazier style challenger really has less to do with skill and more to do with attitude and how you match up. I would argue that Dan Henderson is a highly superior fighter to Sonnen (well, Hendo at the time of the Silva fight at least) but he just didn’t match up as favorably against Silva.
No shame in being the greatest foil ever to the greatest fighter ever though.
Staff Writer - BloodyElbow.com
Follow me on Twitter: @FCoffeen
by Fraser Coffeen on May 9, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
the thing both guys need
is to have a fight that the masses can see. ppv is a formula that while profitable and helps everyone cash out absolutely kills the mainstream interest in sports
if manny or gsp had their fights on free tv broadcasted around the world the same way ali did, maybe they would be noticed and respected for their greatness. but whats going on instead is that loyal fans of both gsp and pacquiao dont give them a break for less than amazing performances because they’ve literally thrown out hundreds if not thousands of dollars watching the guys fight over the years
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
This is really off topic, but I’ve always suspected PPV is a terrible thing for boxing and MMA. I don’t want to go to a fucking Hooters every time the UFC is on and I can’t find people to split the cost. The day you can watch MMA like you watch football will be a glorious day.
i am a tad off topic
but manny pacquiao and gsp dont need joe frazier, they need people to watch their fights. boxing and mma shouldnt be exclusive pay to watch sporting events, they should be broadcasted on every network in the world for everyone to see
i’m a relatively new fan to combat sports, i got into the UFC cause of tuf and the reason i did was because it was fucking free to watch. i didnt grow up on boxing because my dad refused to get ripped off by the promoters and stopped following the sport in the 80s once ppv became the norm. i hate ppv and everything it stands for because all its basically the promoters just trying to see how far they can go to rip off the fans. boxing and mma will continue to be niche sports until the promoters decide to do the right thing and show 100% free fights
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
by milk72 on May 9, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
The UFC does a good job at giving us a lot of free MMA… you now have prelim fights on facebook and spike regularily, then you have TUF, which is still MMA, then you have UFC on Versus shows, then some european UFC shows are free on Spike, then the Fight Night cards. And I suppose I could add the UFC Unleashed show too, there’s some recent stuff that appears on that show. That’s a lot of free MMA.
But without a TV deal with a premium/major channel, they have to do PPVs to be able to afford giving away all that stuff. I don’t mind them having 1 PPV per month. That’s my treshold, though. More than that, and I’ll start choosing which I watch live.
Agree 100%
PPV will only get you so far. I think Dana & Co. are making money hand over fist, and have total control over everything now, and that’s why they don’t want to go for a network deal.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on May 10, 2011 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Boxing/MMA cannot compensate fighters or promoters well without PPV
You have to realize that, for example, hockey and basketball have 1200 games (with athletes playing in 80+ events) each year from which to collect TV and gate revenue to pay 400-700 players.
The UFC does have a smaller roster to compensate, but they only compete 0-4 times per year, and there are under 20 events to get revenue from. Free fights would reduce ticket prices, too, so we’re probably looking at a 5-10x reduction in revenue.
I wouldn’t mind a lower PPV price, but only if fighters get a larger piece of the pie to compensate. Free TV just isn’t good enough for anyone.
by paythefighters on May 10, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
GSP is no Manny
The closest thing I’ve seen to Many in MMA is Fedor. Maybe Frankie could be that guy I dunno. But Manny is beating the day lights out of guys much bigger than him.
by mortarz on May 9, 2011 1:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
yea but gsp has been fighting the best of his weight class in their primes. mannys last three opponents were not in his league and the choices for his opponents have gotten poorer and poorer.
it's funny how people discount everyone Manny fights just because he makes them look so bad
people were talking how Mosely buckled Feyweather but the minute Pac rendered his offense useless, now he’s washed up, blah blah blah. Pac started at 120 pounds, what else does the little guy need to get respect?
by Rucker on May 9, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
At the same time, though, you can’t say Manny’s opponents blow GSP’s out of the water, either, as some people in this thread are claiming. Other than Hardy, GSP’s opponents have remained at the top of the division.
Pac’s starting weight isn’t very meaningful, IMO, other than for that record he holds. Why should we hold it against GSP that he didn’t start out in MMA as a skinny guy? Clearly he isn’t outsized by his opponents as much as Pacquiao, but 4 of the last 6 guys he beat were bigger than him in height and/or mass.
I’d say difficulty of competition is pretty even.
by paythefighters on May 10, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Margarito is kinda a monster and was freakin huge compared to Manny. Also Mosley is old but he also just fought Mayweather.
Ahem, Anderson Silva. And he finishes.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on May 9, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not even Andy
Andy is probably fighting in 1 weight class below where he should. Physically he looks like a 205er. Manny isn’t fighting slouches. Clottey, Margo, Mosley is nothing to sneeze at. I’ll give you Mosley and Margo are past their primes but he still is walking through those guys and it’s not like he is ducking anybody.
Ignoring that those guys do in fact finish elite opponents ( well not Edgar i guess), dominating world class fighters for 5 rounds is just as if not more impressive than many examples of finishes. It’s what GSP does in his decisions and what Frankie Edgar has shown he maybe has the ability to do as well. People opposed with finishes are missing the point.
"Who are you and how the hell did you get in here?"
"I'm a locksmith... and i'm a locksmith."
Manny makes those guys come down to weights they usually never fight at but yeah theyre bigger.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on May 9, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair
Manny isn’t beating up on giant fatties.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
Great article. But Pacman is a lot like Smokin’ Joe. He’s the thing you cannot seem to kill (unless, in the case of Joe, you happen to be George Foreman) but with technical wonders to match Ali. No one will EVER question his ferocity, while GSP is constantly questioned. So I guess I would say that while Pacman may need a worthy contemporary challenger, he needs no protection from those who would doubt his heart or toughness. GSP? I believe he’s done enough there too. Yet it would be great to see someone bring a Sonnen-style tenacity into the ring with him. I personally thought Shields would do that. Instead, he was asking Gil Melendez if he should pull guard after the second round. But it is clearly a measure of the greatness of these two fighters that their opponents are so quickly onto plan b, which is apparently survival, in their fights. GSP’s next few contests will be a lot more intriguing than his last few, in my opinion. Not only is there pressure on him to show more, but Shields clearly exposed his weak retinas.
by Charlie Custer on May 9, 2011 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
word, nobody fights gsp like they want his belt
they get in there try plan a, it doesn’t work and they shift their focus to hanging with the champ and not getting finished
not georges fault, but he needs to start savaging these guys, not counting the kos rematch, that shit should of been stopped. We still don’t know when josh will get back in the cage.
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
The difference is...
GSP isn’t the best MMA fighter there is and Pac-man is the best boxer.
by Spider_Vemon on May 9, 2011 1:54 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
GSP
and Anderson are definitely interchangable #1. You can make an equally compelling case for either man as being the greatest.
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by ElliotMatheny on May 10, 2011 7:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Manny brings it to his opponent. This last saturday i saw Mosley get knocked down and proceed to back track and hug like his life depended on it.
GSP plays it much safer that Manny.
exactly. plus the dude was in a little car crash before the fight
Pac is a monster, and the minute his opponent tastes his power they go into survival mode. Not Pac’s fault he was dancing forward the whole time
So pac and Jon Jones are basically the same. They get into car accidents before the fight, stop muggings, and beat the living shit outta people.
don't compare Bonehead to Pac
what Jones has done isn’t even in the same universe of Pac’s accomplishments
Jones has a hidden arrogance
Pac is down to earth. what similarities are there?
Please, GSP brings it to all his opponents
He initiates the vast majority of exchanges in all his fights. Aside from two rounds with the eyepoke, GSP’s last 8 opponents were on the defensive for nearly the whole fight.
His detractors just have blinders on. For example:
How often did we see this in the Koscheck fight? He’s not Dhalsim, like Jones and Silva.
(I don’t know if people are getting sick of me posting this, but I can get other gifs if needed)
by paythefighters on May 10, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
(last 8 is incorrect – Fitch did try to fight back with everything he had, so he shouldn’t be included.)
by paythefighters on May 10, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Mosley looked like a complete amateur compared to Pac
the look in his eyes after the knockdown said it all
If GSP has no "Fraizer" is the WW division not as strong as we are led to believe?
GSP always has a clear path to victory due to his 170 contemporaries all being to a certain extent just plain 1 dimensional. Take away Fitch’s rasslin and how can he win fights, we already saw that Hardy’s fearsome striking aint all that to begin with. Sheilds wasn’t able to get the takedown, threw more punches than gsp, blinded him via eye poke and still dropped a decision because he doesn’t have the stand up skills to beat a half blind man
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
by The Blackula on May 9, 2011 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
You’re definitely right about the 1 dimensional opponents. GSP’s too good at wrestling for strikers to beat him and he’s too good at striking for wrestlers to beat him. And worse yet, his opponents are visibly afraid of him and mentally defeated a couple minutes into the fights. They don’t think they can win.
My hope is that GSP moves up to 185 and not just for a fight with Anderson Silva. I just want to see GSP tested and he’s not getting it at welterweight. I don’t think the larger guys at middleweight will fear him (even if maybe they should) and it will lead to more entertaining fights. GSP vs Marquardt. GSP vs Sonnen. GSP vs Silva. I’d love to watch all of those fights.
It bugs me guys like Hector Lombard, Eddie Alvarez and Ben Askren are stuck in Bellator
That has the same champions clause in place as the UFC not allowing them to leave and permanently putting a ceiling on what they can accomplish in their career with a limited promotion. At least UFC is the undisputed top dog people should want to fight for unless they’ve burned bridges or think they’re bigger than the sport.
by KJ Gould on May 9, 2011 3:22 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I mean I don’t blame those guys for signing with Bellator. When they joined the org I’m sure they needed the money and were lookin for the best pay day. And its not like they can throw a fight to get out of it. It just sucks that they cant co-promote
Yeah, it may be better for fighters to throw a fight to get out of a contract
If that’s what it comes to. Obvious legal problems if that turns out to be the case, but what option is there? Try and make Bjorn an offer he can’t refuse? That sounds even worse.
People are forgetting what Pac is doing
he’s not just beating guys, he’s changing their career paths
De La Hoya – retired by Pac
Hatton – got obliterated by Pac, hasn’t fought in 2 years
Cotto – from contention to redemption with Margarito
Clottey – who wants to watch him anymore?
Margarito – orbital bone healed, rematch with Cotto sans plaster
Mosley – dropped by only 2 other humans other than Pac, in his whole career. for the 1st time looks ready to retire.
say what you want about Pac but he’s done more than enough to earn his #1 P4P
And you don’t think GSP would be doing the same if he fought a bunch of guys past their prime like Hughes, Serra, Lytle, or guys just not good like Matt Brown (sorry Luke!), Riddle or whatever. It’s all about strength of competition. Pacquiao’s great, but let’s see him against guys that weren’t already on the down slope of their careers, please.
When Pacquiao reached num 2 pound for pound
He went through an unbelievable barrage of Mexican fighters, the dreaded trio of Barrera-Marquez-Morales and several beltholders who were on the top of their weight classes as per The Ring Rankings. Then Pac was promoted to num 1 p4p after Mayweather “retired” i think the strength of competition is still unmatched by his contemporaries. It’s quite unfair for people who came in late to the party to start the discrediting game when no other boxer would even jump weight classes after reaching num 1 p4p.
That’s fair, but I’m concentrating on Manny’s last 6 fights, ie. since De La Hoya. That was his coming out party. That’s when he became universally known as the best current boxer and the best current draw. Look, I’m no boxing expert, as evidenced by my many comments about Pacquiao recently, but I know a past his prime boxer when I see one, and that’s all I see when I look at Manny’s previous 6 fights. I just wished he’d fight guys not nearing retirement, you know? Is that really too much to ask?
We should always look at the situation at that time.
I think the nearing retirement label should only be put on Mosley. We should remember that Oscar was the favorite coming in, and a substantial number of boxing experts believed that Pacquiao was a fool to visit the 140 lb division and fight Hatton, who was the universally recognized champion. It was at this time that Mayweather opted to fight JMM for his comeback, and so we were left with a fight with Cotto, which arguably was quite a dangerous fight. Sure he was damaged by Margarito but nowhere near retirement. In fact, he’s still rated in the p4p rankings today. The first three rounds of that fight were action packed. It was clear that in those minutes he was there with an excellent, well-prepared figther. And then Manny took control. Doesn’t he deserve a little credit for that?
Clottey was a farce. I will not defend this. That was supposed to be PBF in the Cowboys Stadium. But i’ll say that Clottey’s not nearing retirement.
And Margarito, he just lacked in skill. Did he deserve to be there? No. But still, people gave him a chance because of his physical advantages. At that time was he nearing retirement? I don’t think so.
I share your frustration about the matchmaking, and it started for me with the Clottey fight. We all want Mayweather. And as long as it’s not Mayweather in the ring, people will be dissatisfied. We will say they’re all not good enough. But of course! What did you expect? Floyd was and is what everybody believes to be the one who is good enough. There are the Ortizes and the Martinezes waiting in the wings, but they all just recently separated from the pack. And in the sport of boxing with all of its promotions and egos, it’s a tumor compared to the pimple that is MMA matchmaking.
The author has a point but my question is, who in Pac's division can touch him?
He is absolutely leaps and bounds ahead of the (available) competition since the only guy good enough to hang with him is scared to take the fight. I mean there’s also the Sergio Martinez option but that would be like the boxing equivalent of asking GSP to fight Bones
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@anonymousbungi
no, it'd be the equivalent of asking GSP to fight Cain Velasquez
Sergio Martinez would outweigh Pacman by roughly 30 pounds on fight night. The fact that people are even considering this is just insane, and shows how spoiled we’ve become by Pacquiao’s streak of destroying bigger and stronger men.
Yes, it just shows how much Pac has raised the bar for what is possible in boxing (and with it, all our expectations from him)
Can’t really say the same thing about GSP
I love rainbows, unicorns and chupa chups
@anonymousbungi
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