Reality Check: It's high time we appreciate what GSP does for the UFC WW division

by paythefighters on May 2, 2011 10:08 PM EDT

Boy does it suck to be GSP. I'm being facetious, of course, as he is an incredibly talented mixed martial artist earning millions of dollars, and most people would gladly walk in his shoes. However, the amount of flack being thrown his way is baffling, as it's difficult to see what he's done to deserve this lack of respect.

The GSP double standard

As many GSP fans are no doubt well aware of, the way people extract perceived effort, heart, toughness, and even more tangible things like skill and power seem to have special rules when considering GSP. Maybe it's all a holdover from his shocking loss to Matt Serra, but the double standards are shocking. GSP is a quitter because he tapped after trying to stay alive on stanky legs for some time, yet Shogun is a warrior for doing the same, despite both unknowingly holding off until the refs already stopped the fight to protect them. Why is it that his comeback win over Penn in their first fight together is always overlooked? How about battling through a torn groin at UFC 100? Now, GSP is somehow being disparaged for merely being in control of a fight with only one functioning eye, while Hominick and even Koscheck get praised for their heart in a losing effort. Nevermind that Hominick's hematoma was a blood filled sack with no effect on the fight aside from maybe freaking out Aldo and the audience, that Koscheck's eye was still fine behind that swelling, and that neither of the two come close to evoking the fear that one feels when his eye suddenly stops working. Never mind that Koscheck lost a year of competition and still feels pain for his "courage" and/or the ringside doctor's incompetency, that Alan Belcher nearly lost his career due to the eye injury, or for us Canadians, the terrifying memories of what happened to Bryan Berard and the great Steve Yzerman.

Also related to the Serra fight is bizarre myth that GSP has a weak chin, echoed by so many of his opponents and detractors. Aside from being wobbled by that power shot from Serra landing just behind GSP's ear, AFAIK we've never seen GSP get rocked once in his entire career, let alone knocked down. He's taken his share of hard punches without any ill effects at all. Of course, that GSP did plenty of standup against Fitch and Alves doesn't counter the claim that he's been afraid to stand up since the Serra KO. Aldo's takedowns, far less active top control against Hominick, and his cruising to the finish line in this fight and against Faber of course, be excused since he's not GSP.

Left: GSP's chin is just fine as he takes a punch from Alves at UFC 100.

Right: Fitch thinks he's landed a good left hook, but GSP's impending devastating counter is undeterred.

via mmafighting.net

And now educated writers are even questioning GSP's standup skills for the damage he took while losing half his vision for half the fight? In the last two years, FightMetric tells us that from striking distance GSP has avoided 93% of the 424 total strikes aimed at his head, with only 7 out of 146 power strikes landing. This is astounding, and he is arguably the hardest to hit fighter in all of MMA yet is rarely if ever promoted as such. I suppose that's consistent with the reluctance to market his dominance. I think when Sheilds' mediocre striking bloodies GSP's face when suddenly landing almost 20% of his "power" shots, it's clear something is badly wrong with his vision.

It's as if GSP would be better off if he did a little acting in the fight. Instead of brushing off hard shots as if nothing happened, he should drop down and instantly recover, so that we can see his "heart". Instead of continuing to attack Shields, he should have done a little embellishment from the nasty eye pokes.

A Rational View of Excitement

Our boring, dry-humping champion... NOT

Lets go beyond this fight and look at the broader claim of GSP's "boring" fighting style. It's not hard to come to the simple realization that it's easy to have exciting fights when your get opponents who haven't gone 18 months without being submitted since 2002, are offensive minded and kindly freeze in front of you to get KO'd, who aren't good enough for the UFC, etc. Okay, now I'm being an ungrateful bastard for Silva's spectacular moments, but it's unquestionably easier than being exciting against guys that make the P4P all-boring list. (I actually don't consider these positional battlers boring, but I'm not writing this fanpost to myself...)

Let's take a look at how other fighters have fared in generating excitement when facing Shields, Koscheck, Hardy, Alves, and Fitch. Before we begin, I must emphasize that nobody should get credit for getting their own ass beat down. If you attack your opponent, the excitement gets credited to you, but if you happen to be in a dogfight, excitement from the damage you received gets credited to your opponent.

Jon Fitch: It was a small miracle that GSP could bring so much excitement to a Fitch fight. Paulo Thiago got a good guillotine attempt, but nobody's come close to avoiding the Fitching like GSP did.

Thiago Alves: I'm not sure why anyone would think that this wasn't a good fight, and with GSP tearing his groin in three places going for the finish, he certainly tried to avoid the decision. About half the fight was quality standup, and nobody has brought more offense against Alves than GSP, although Lytle did well until he took too much damage to continue. The explosive Howard couldn't do much either, but served well as a punching bag for three rounds.

Dan Hardy: Okay, GSP is definitely at fault here for abandoning damage in favor of BJJ, but even then, only Condit has brought more offense to him. Besides, many people thoroughly enjoyed the multiple near-submissions (I saw it in a theater and there was plenty of roaring going on). The exciting Anthony "Rumble" Johnson didn't bring any more excitement than GSP other than the head kick.

Josh Koscheck: Again, GSP brought more offense and way more damage than any of Koscheck's other opponents. Props to Paulo Thiago for the KO, but Koscheck wasn't going to throw such an awful leaping jab with his exposed head facing the floor ever again. Rumble had a somewhat exciting fight with Koscheck, but mostly because Koscheck attacked and finished him. The exciting Daley couldn't do anything but get laid on, and Lytle mostly suffered the same fate but gave us a little blood.

Jake Shields: Dan Henderson, one of the most exciting fighters ever, gave us a great nice first round, but in the end landed two knockdowns and 16 power strikes for the whole fight, less or equal to GSP. Condit, Daley and Lawler, two other exciting fighters, couldn't create much offense at all against Shields. The man knows how to stifle attacks and minimize damage taken, which is great for him, but not for fans.

I think the point is clear. Exciting fighters like Hendo, Rumble, Semtex, Paulo Thiago, and Chris Lytle were unable to have more exciting fights against these guys than GSP did, despite having the freedom to go balls out because they didn't have millions in endorsements, a belt, and a legacy on the line. The only welterweights left who has a small chance of being more exciting than GSP against these opponents is Carlos Condit (I don't see him executing much offense against Fitch, Shields, or Koscheck) and up and comers like Jake Ellenberger and Rory MacDonald. Of course, they would not be of much help in the last few years, which brings me to my final point...

What would WW be like without GSP?

Matt Hughes is an all time great, and like Couture, many fans embraced his often grinding style. GSP had some exciting fights back then as contender and champ, so it's hard to make a case that in his absence we'd get more excitement out of Hughes-Serra, Hughes-Koscheck, or Hughes-Fitch. If we got the Nov 2010 BJ Penn (how sad is it that I have to be so specific?) vying for the WW title, we may have had one or two good title fights, but he's been a star for the LW division. Moving forward, we would likely wind up with 5-round title bouts like:

Alves-Fitch: Well, we all saw how great that 3-round decision was. Imagine another two rounds.

Alves-Koscheck: Take their existing 3-round decision, replace Koscheck with one that had more than two weeks notice, and you probably get the same fight with more Koscheck top-control and no early knockdown. Less exciting than GSP-Alves and GSP-Koscheck.

Alves-Shields: Hard to say who wins, but decision for sure. Less exciting than GSP against either.

Koscheck-Fitch: Yeah right...

Fitch-Shields: An intriguing matchup that ended up with a Shields submission in a grappling setting, but still highly unlikely to have anywhere near as much excitement as GSP-Fitch or GSP-Shields. If you're lucky, you'll see some ugly standup from both sides.

Koscheck-Shields: Koscheck's right is unlikely to land cleanly, and his wrestling and BJJ defense is solid, so another low damage decision.

Hardy vs nobody: He probably doesn't get a title shot, because the UFC wouldn't be desperate for a contender.

So for everyone who thinks GSP is boring, let me know which of the above appeals more to you than a GSP title fight. As much as I'd love to see GSP-Silva, and as curious as I am about who comes on top between Alves, Fitch, Koscheck, and Shields in 5 round affairs, the WW titles fights are going to lose a lot of pep.

Thank you, GSP, for bringing so much excitement to the inevitably decision-laden UFC welterweight division.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

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Comments

Yea, that’s a major misconception regarding GSP. He actually has a very solid chin. Funny thing is, the Serra fight proved it. When you get hit behind the ear, it messes up your equilibrium. Which is not really the same thing as being rocked per se, but I can understand for those who do not agree that their is a difference.

GSP was clearly still fully conscious, and of sound mind, just terribly off balanced, and hell, this fool kept trying to strike like it was cool. Lol. GSP then proceeded to eat the real power shots, the ones that were connecting fully flush, and these were the ones that were really hurting him, and not just messing up the equilibrium.

GSP took many many punches flush on the chin, from a hard puncher like Serra, all while GSP balance was not good, and likely did not see the punches coming. I mean, that’s the definition of a chin.

It’s more about GSP unwillingness to want to entertain exchanges like that, and his fear of ever being in a spot like that , that makes people think he doesn’t have a chin. It’s not that he doesn’t have a chin, it’s just that it’s freaking scary to get knocked out, and if you don’t have to risk it, why do it?

And I totally agree with you on Kos/Alves. If Kos had a full training camp, that’s a wildly different fight…

by p123 on May 2, 2011 10:26 PM EDT reply actions

I actually posted this comment in many shorter words than you on GSP’s Facebook! His performances really get UnderValued, but let’s face it, he’s always fighting the “2” guy in the division so naturally the Guy Should be tough, no? Shields did an Excellent job of at least keepng his hands up the whole fight and like you said Hendo, Lytle, Daley, Lawler, all with 1 punch KO power and they didn’t knock jake out either

The lives of all of us have been moulded largely by induction through suggestion.

by imapimp08 on May 2, 2011 10:45 PM EDT reply actions

im gonna throw out my 2 cents

my problem with GSP is that he talks a big game and then brings over twister instead of the new mortal kombat game. Its all fine and dandy if you want to be a points fighter. i have zero problem with that. what i dont like is the fact he wants to be the GOAT. Now if you look back in history (not just mma) you will see that every great person has takin multiple risks to cement their legacy. Thats not the GSP way and i dont see it changing. So in my opinion hes hurting his own reputation with all the talk. unless he changes his style he needs to change is thoughts about GOAT.

by barzillatron on May 2, 2011 11:05 PM EDT reply actions

I think this type of topic needs subtlety, and GSP just doesn’t have that when talking in English. For all the crap we give Soares, he prevents a lot of cross-cultural mixup in his translations for Silva. Just think about all that respect nonsense directed at Maia about a harmless remark regarding Silva’s nickname. Some people like GSP for his honesty, but that also means he can’t build the perfect persona.

I don’t think GSP wants to be a points fighter. He wouldn’t repeatedly wind up on back going for chokes if that was the case. The problem is that so many of his opponents are defense first fighters who aren’t really trying to win, or at least they become that way after spending a little time in the ring. They’re just praying GSP makes some mistake (like the Serra fight) and victory will be handed to them. Witness:
- Alves backing up and just throwing enough strikes to keep GSP away
- Hardy not landing a single punch from striking distance, always ready to roll with GSP’s punches, unlike his approach to Condit
- Koscheck throwing the same overhand right but only when GSP can’t counter
- Shields not doing anything to win despite clearly losing the last three rounds

The last fighter to keep trying against GSP was Fitch. Incidentally, he did the most damage, too (aside from the eye poke onwards in this fight)

by paythefighters on May 2, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions

I've tried explaining that WW

Is full of defensive fighters, too, yeah. They’re almost all GD wrestlers, and wrestling is nearly the perfect defensive art in MMA. It would be like . . . Anderson Silva having every one of his fights be against Demian Maia or Chael Sonnen WITH a good jujitsu defense. (I don’t say this to take away from Anderson, but to suggest the differences between the divisions.)

I love your examples, too, of what WW would look like without GSP. Yeah . . . it’d be a parade of Fitchings. Koscheck vs. Fitch. The mind boggles.

by Christopher Bradley on May 3, 2011 5:13 AM EDT up reply actions

Thanks. The WW w/o GSP section was supposed to really drive home the point of how rare it is to find someone that can make fights with good wrestlers exciting.

Maia is actually a guy that I think GSP could finish. Not in Marquardt fashion (Maia will only make that mistake once), but his defense and chin are not as good as Shields.

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 6:21 AM EDT up reply actions

Good article and I agree that GSP is given more shit than is due.

That being said your criticism of Fitch is unfair as he has a very similar top control game to GSP.

Has a sig bet with Californication for Wiman/Siver at UFC 132
Further more, I have a sig bet with Chronogata on Lesnar over JDS

by doonerthesooner on May 3, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions

If you recall, I said:

I actually don’t consider these positional battlers boring, but I’m not writing this fanpost to myself.

That section was sort of written from the viewpoint of typical MMA fans, like those you find at an event. As much as these folk criticize GSP, they’re going to like Fitch/Shields/Koscheck much less.

I have a lot of respect for Fitch, and so does GSP. Despite the damage he took, he is the only fighter in a long time to truly push GSP, never settle for the loss and keep trying to win.

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions

I was initially upset by GSP-Shields

But in retrospect, now knowing how badly GSP’s eye was hurt, I think he put on an incredible performance. Because he DID show tremendous heart. There he was, half-blind, possibly permanently, and did he quit? Nope. Not even a little. Sure, he didn’t implement the game plan, duh, because he was literally half-blind most of the fight.

I am increasingly seeing this as GSP’s greatest fight. Who else could have defeated Shields so easily half-blind?

by Christopher Bradley on May 3, 2011 5:10 AM EDT reply actions 11 recs

Finally someone speaking some sense around here.

Too many people holding him up to this impossible standard.

Sheeeeeeeee-it

by Clay Davis on May 5, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Awesome post. I can’t rec this enough. Well done!

by Shnak on May 3, 2011 7:37 AM EDT reply actions

Thanks! I put a lot of time in it, but it doesn’t seem like many people are reading it :(

At the very least I wanted some of the haters to stir up some shit in the comments. I really want to challenge them to choose more exciting title fights without GSP, or someone who could do a better job against these defensive opponents.

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions

I personally just think he had an off night..

put the eye injury aside, i really think, like any athlete, simply had an off night by his standards. Even the first couple rounds where he was not hurtm GSP just looked like he was off..every athlete has them but it just shows how good this guy is. It was bad enough he looked like he was off but then to lose sight in one eye and still pull out the victory against a fighter the caliber of Jake Shields, I think thats amazing. I wrote a fanpost talking about this, of course there are negatives to take from the fight but there are positives too…he is the best WW in the world hands down, finish a fight or not he is a beast.

by gpl_03 on May 3, 2011 9:14 AM EDT reply actions

You really think so?

Pre-injury, he landed a lot more power shots compared to the Koscheck fight. That was the criticism, right? Too many jabs, not enough hard punches?

Think back to GSP-Hughes II – the best guy he finished next to Penn. What’s the difference between that fight and this? Simply that Shields recovered instantly after getting dropped, whether by punch or by head kick. That’s it. GSP’s offensive output was about the same.

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions

i do think so..

when did you ever see him look that predictable? He threw the same combo over and over again and then he tried putting in a spinning back kick and overused that….power punches were landed but landing and landing to do damage are two dif things in my opinion. That overhand right was useless in my opinion, it hit him on the top of the head every time or it missed completely.

Obviously you sound like you disagree and I have no beef about that but to me just watching him the first two round he just didn’t seem like he was 100% on his game that night regardless of the shots he landed.

I am not criticizing him as like i said for the circumstances i thought he once again showed how good. I just think if you look at the fight purely during the rounds he was not injured I didn’t see great rounds from him or see “the best GSP” as he claims. I was much more in awe of his jab heavy rounds against Kos then those rounds against Shields. He just didn’t look at his best is all I am saying.

by gpl_03 on May 3, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions

That overhand right connected a few times, though. And he had a good superman punch, and that spinning back kick landed at least once. GSP was dominating early on in that fight, no questions about it. GSP was going after Jake early on a lot more than he was against Koscheck.

by Shnak on May 3, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions

Okay, fair enough

I can’t blame him for the overhands, as it worked for Hendo, it’s a sensible strike when your opponent is sticking his jab out like that to keep distance, and he was landing it a lot. Other than that one power jab (which required Shields’ cooperation to be so solid), it was the most promising strike he had for the KO.

That’s probably the problem. He was too desperate for the KO, so he didn’t bother with the variety of strikes he usually uses (leg kicks, superman punches, etc). Who knows what he was originally planning in the fourth and fifth, though. Grappling with one eye could be even worse than striking, as you can’t see half the threats at all (e.g. triangle) and have compromised vision due to body parts being completely out of the field of view.

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions

you sir get a rec

for putting all the nonsense criticism of GSP in its place… the garbage.

by malkav on May 3, 2011 9:32 AM EDT reply actions

Great post!

And, very well-written. I enjoyed it :)

Honey badger don't care.

by KatGirl on May 3, 2011 9:57 AM EDT reply actions

I really don't see what the big problem is.

GSP is boring, or at least he has been. This shouldn’t be debated as any objective viewer, casual or otherwise, can watch any one of his last three fights and come to the conclusion that it was not an exciting fight compartive to fights that actually were a riveting contest (IE: virtually every other fight on Saturdays card).

The question many people overlook when talking about this is a very simple one. Why aren’t GSP’s fights exciting? The answer is very simple: He’s so good, he takes the excitement out of hand to hand combat.

He fights so physically, mentally, and technically sound that he leaves as close to a zero percent chance of losing as humanly possible. If you’re a fan of GSP this is awesome, if you’re not, this is boring. End of story.

I am not a fan of GSP, for the same reason I respect the hell out of him. He refuses to leave his “comfort zone”. When Shields was on his back after eating an early high leg kick, did GSP pounce on him and try and pound out a win? No. No he did not. Would he have been able to finish Shields? Who knows…I would have liked to see him try, but that’s not GSP. Following Jake to the ground was absolutely rule number one in things NOT to do for this fights. So he stuck to the plan, and got the W.

Again, if you’re a fan of GSP, I really don’t see what the problem is…fuck his detractors, he just ended Shields 15 fight winning streak. No arguing that. If you’re like me, take solace in knowing that the more GSP builds, the more exciting it will be when he loses…which he will eventually, because they all do.

Lyoto Machida will literally kick your teeth out.

by tito (eight and oh) on May 3, 2011 10:27 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs

When Shields was on his back after eating an early high leg kick, did GSP pounce on him and try and pound out a win? No

People need to stop repeating this. The instant after GSP clocked him with the kick, he grabbed that leg before GSP even retracted it. GSP immediately hopped out and swung for his head. Shields avoided it, and then lay on his back, using his legs to keep GSP away. He wasn’t rocked at all (despite what Rogan said). GSP then fired one body shot and went to the ground with a heavy finishing blow (despite Goldberg saying GSP did not go for the finish). Shields avoids it, and with GSP on all fours now, he immediately grabs GSP’s leg again, using it to stand up as GSP pried him off.

If you want to engage in debate about GSP – and you seem to be one of the more rational non-fans of GSP – then don’t make stuff up.

GSP wasn’t afraid of going into Shields’ open guard. It was never offered. One takedown was at the end of the third, and after GSP landed a few shots, Shields got a hip escape going and GSP was struggling to keep him down. After the takedown in the fourth, Shields pushed off with butterflies right when GSP went for damage. The knockdown is explained above. In any case, everyone agreed that GSP’s best chance of finishing is on the feet, right? They all bitch about his ground game, right?

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions

Kind of missed the entire point of the comment their.

And in my defense I’m going based on one viewing of that particular fight (because lets be honest, who would want to sit through that again) and this is what my memory came up with. Apologies if it wasn’t exactly accurate, as the memory of GSP knocking Shields down (twice) and not finishing the fight was fresh in my cerebrum. I’ll take your word for it though, and add that much like your GSP fanboy counteparts, you’ve defended GSP admirably. So congrats Charlie…

Lyoto Machida will literally kick your teeth out.

by tito (eight and oh) on May 3, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions

It’s “there” :P

I’ll admit that I was disappointed after that fight, but the funny thing is that when I viewed it again, it looked a lot better. I think the rest of the card was so good – in particular the crane kick KO and an unexpectedly competitive fight from Hominick – that expectations became unreasonable.

On it’s own, GSP doesn’t look any less aggressive than in Hughes-GSP II. Both fights had a first round knockdown and head kick knockdown. The difference is that Shields has a great chin, and the eyepoke screwed up the fairytale ending.

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Thank you. Thank you very much. Oh, and thanks.

If Evil has a name, I`m certain it`s "Ellsworth Monkton Toohey"

by BlueberryMuffin on May 3, 2011 1:33 PM EDT reply actions

the way i see gsp

he is like a safe investment … you wont get rich but you will live a comfortable life
not many history books are written about people living comfortable lives

that is why he will never fight anderson silva…its a risk. he is giving up what he always enjoys, a reach and size advantage. knowing gsp he will never take that fight.

the fighters that take risks and have the highlight knockout or submissions to prove it are the investments that seemed risky but payed off big in the end … and those my friend are the people whose history books are written for.

machida has the crane, anderson has the foot kick, cain has brock break dancing, jon jones has shogun broken …

gsp he has alot of nice decision wins.

so in conclusion gsp is a really really good fighter but his legacy will take a hit unless he starts finishing fights.

by sellmorebooks on May 3, 2011 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Come on… GSP could’ve finished Couture at this point in his career. And I really do think that the beatings GSP put on Fitch, Alves and Penn are just as great as what Cain did to Brock and Jones to Shogun. Only thing missing was the great finish.

by Shnak on May 3, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions

You’re talking about points in Machida’s, Cain’s, and Jones’ careers that match up better to GSP’s highlights against Matt Hughes (e.g the headkick that ended an era). Do you hate GSP so much that his past accomplishments have been erased?

BTW, how is Machida’s crane kick risky? He’s firing it at a 48 year old.

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions

so in conclusion gsp is a really really good fighter but his legacy will take a hit unless he starts finishing fights.

Name two fighters at MW or lower that could do more damage to Fitch, Penn, Alves, Koscheck, and Shields. One is Silva (and he’d get laid on by several of them, likely losing a decision). Who’s the other one?

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Makes you wonder why all those wrestlers don’t just move up to MW and take Andy’s title. Since all they would have to do is take him down and hold him there. Which is obviously extremely easy. I mean you saw Chael do it…

Where is that sarcasm font?

I can’t believe how much people are sugar coating the fact that GSP is just a great point fighter. He’s the most boring champ on the UFC roster. The “well his opponents are harder to finish than other guy’s opponents are”, argument just seems like Jon Jones level reaching. Koscheck got finished by Paulo Thiago, Thiago Alves got finished by Spencer Fisher, Dan Hardy’s been knocked out….The WW division is not stacked with iron jawed world beaters

Turning Bat Shit into BatMan for 27 yrs

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/04/ufc-middleweight-champion-silva-like-water.html

by warren305 on May 3, 2011 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions

If those wrestlers could get free title shots, they absolutely would move to 185. They’d rather stay at the top of the rankings at 170 than climb up the ladder at 185 and risk losing. Yushin Okami not getting a title shot in forever while guys like Cote and Leites get to bypass wrestlers to an accelerated title shot isn’t exactly inspiration to them. Anyway, whether Silva loses to a wrestler if faced with a gauntlet of them is irrelevant. Besides him, you didn’t name one guy other guy who could bring more action to fights against Fitch, Penn, Alves, Koscheck, and Shields. I’m waiting…

You’re so desperate to show weakness in GSP’s opponents that you’re digging up his first ever UFC fight from 5+ years ago? Paulo was getting owned by Koscheck until that awful, leaping, look-at-the-floor jab which he’ll never do again, and the damage GSP did to Kos was more worthy of stoppage than the flash KO by Thiago. How much excitement did Thiago bring against Fitch?

Ahh, the ingrate’s “most boring champ” claim. The only reason you think Edgar is more exciting is that he got his ass kicked and came back to tie. He has less variety, less damage, and less chance of finishing than GSP (FYI, I like Frankie). Same with Cruz. How is his track record better than GSP’s? More double standards.

P.S. regarding Hardy, what part of “GSP is definitely at fault here” don’t you understand?

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions

The difference between Frankie Edgar and GSP

Is Frankie Edgar beats the shit out of his opponent, he doesn’t double jab, circle, superman jab, and the occasional spinning back kick. He throws fluid combination, lands regularly and most importantly when he hurts his opponent, he absolutely swarms him. Frankie Edgar attacks aggressively, he just isn’t gifted with the natural power some fights possess

GSP has considerable power, you can see it is his past fights, GSP is not just unwilling to take risks. And as a fighter he has every right to make that decision, that being said, it makes him a boring ass fighter

by DarthKitty on May 4, 2011 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions

More double standard bullshit. Frankie beats the shit out of his opponents? Yet GSP doesn’t?

Aside from Hardy, GSP has beaten his last six opponents worse than they ever have in their life. Penn took 10x more damage from GSP than Frankie. More damage to Alves than all his fights combined. More damage to Koscheck than all his fights combined. More damage to Shields than anyone else (well, maybe a hair less than Hendo inflicted, but Shields wasn’t letting that happen again).

When has GSP not attacked a hurt opponent? He went right after Penn and Alves, threw the kitchen sink at Koscheck, but once in defensive mode, he’s too athletic to hit (the most devastating WW strikers – Alves, Rumble, and Daley – had the same problem).

Shields never lost his senses. This is the sequence of events after the headkick:
-Shields immediately grabs GSP’s leg
-GSP gets his leg free and immediately swings for the KO
-Jake goes to his back kicking GSP away
-GSP navigates the legs then goes for the kill
-Jake moves away to GSP’s blind side and grabs a leg
-Jakes gets to his feet as GSP squirms free

So please, MMA guru DarthKitty, what could GSP have done differently here?

I think what Frankie does is fantastic, but his powerless 3 punch combos are less risky than GSP’s 2 strike combos.

by paythefighters on May 4, 2011 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions

While its fun trolling GSP fans

I don’t really dislike the guy at all. I think there is some cognitive dissonance between his performances lately, and the out pouring of excuses for them. The same thing happened with Silva, and I was a chronic defender of him…chronic defender…theres no time to laugh about that now. Anyway, I’m not going to dive deep into the reasons why, but that Shileds fight was just terrible to watch. And thats all I’ve got to say about that.

Turning Bat Shit into BatMan for 27 yrs

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/04/ufc-middleweight-champion-silva-like-water.html

by warren305 on May 4, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions

Frankie Edgar does far more damage to more skilled strikers then GSP

BJ Penn? Gray Maynard? Both of these men would eat Jake Shields alive standing, Frankie Edgar manhandled BJ Penn more in his second fight then GSP did in his second fight. I know you are going to be like, oh but GSP finished BJ Penn, but that goes back to a huge size advantage and more importantly the natural power I mentioned early

If Frankie Edgar had the power GSP possesses, Frankie Edgar would have finished BJ Penn, he probably would have finished Maynard and Sean Sherk also. The fact of the matter is GSP is not willing to risk himself to finish a fight, which as I said he has ever right to do, but it does make his fights absolutely boring as hell

by DarthKitty on May 4, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions

He seemed like he was trying his hardest to finish Shields if you ask me.

Also Maynard ain’t all that on the feet.

Has a sig bet with Californication for Wiman/Siver at UFC 132
Further more, I have a sig bet with Chronogata on Lesnar over JDS

by doonerthesooner on May 4, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Maynard is pretty good on the feet

He outstruck Nate Diaz, and he outstruck Kenny Florian on the feet. I would consider both of those guys very good strikers.

How how did he look like he was trying so hard to finish Shields? By throwing overhand rights that would make Leonard Garcia blush? No, he was just throwing it to keep Shields back and hope if it landed it was miraculously KO him. And when he hurt Shields, he still gave him plenty of time to recover,

by DarthKitty on May 4, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions

I assume that he kept going to it because it was landing at first. Then after his eye went so did his depth perception.

I agree towards the end he was throwing it to keep Shields at bay but you can’t deny we saw a very aggressive GSP on Saturday. And it’s debatable whether or not Maynard out struck Diaz I haven’t seen the numbers but that was a very close fight and the take downs were the difference with Florian. I’m not saying Maynard is a slouch I just don’t think his striking exclusively is up to par with the guys you mentioned.

Has a sig bet with Californication for Wiman/Siver at UFC 132
Further more, I have a sig bet with Chronogata on Lesnar over JDS

by doonerthesooner on May 4, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions

I don’t know what is going through your head.

The overhand rights were landing. Hendo knocked him down with them Why on earth would GSP stop throwing them?

This is how Jake and Koscheck fought: If you see an incoming strike from GSP, leap back. They had no desire to change the course of the fight, just survive and hope GSP makes a mistake. The jab was too fast for either to see. Koscheck could get out of the way of most power shots, but Jake was half-escaping them.

GSP did NOT give shields time to recover. I already detailed the knockdown above. If you can’t read, there’s nothing more I can say.

by paythefighters on May 4, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions

BJ Penn? Gray Maynard? Both of these men would eat Jake Shields alive standing

You go ahead and believe that. Maynard hasn’t eaten anybody alive standing aside from one round from Edgar (which was all the result of one punch). Penn’s striking footwork would get himself clinched and taken down, so no, he wouldn’t get eaten alive by Shields.

Frankie Edgar manhandled BJ Penn more in his second fight then GSP did in his second fight.

Okay, now I know you’re just a troll. Goodbye.

by paythefighters on May 4, 2011 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions

*I mean Shields wouldn’t get eaten alive by Penn, not the other way around.

by paythefighters on May 4, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions

I think Penn has better power than GSP provided he was able to land flush I think he could turn his lights off.

Has a sig bet with Californication for Wiman/Siver at UFC 132
Further more, I have a sig bet with Chronogata on Lesnar over JDS

by doonerthesooner on May 4, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions

I doubt it. He recovered after two knockdowns from Henderson, and I’m not about to say Penn has more power than that. He may be able to keep Penn away with his reach.

I think it would be an interesting match, though. Penn probably wouldn’t be able to keep the whole fight on the feet.

by paythefighters on May 4, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Nonsense, I clearly stated the GSP did more damage

However Frankie Edgar did dominate him in a more impressive manner. GSP just hits harder, but the way Frankie Edgar took BJ Penn apart was far more dominant

by DarthKitty on May 4, 2011 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions

When you say manhandled, it implies certain things. If you want to say Edgar picked BJ apart better than GSP, fine. However, Frankie could never finish BJ that way. GSP was doing just fine on the feet in the third and fourth, but he wanted the finish and he got it on the ground.

On the subject of this fanpost, there’s no disputing this: if GSP fought BJ exactly the same way Edgar did for his next fight, then he would be panned for it. And you say “if Frankie had the power GSP did, he would have finished XX, YY, ZZ”; well, if GSP had the power Silva did, he would have finished a bunch of guys too. So that’s two double standards you’re using right there.

by paythefighters on May 4, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions

I surprisingly.... agree

As much as I rag on him and say Gsp should finish guys more, who am I to complain when I wanted Shields to win. And we all know he would be a lot more “boring”, but then again Jake isnt a karate black belt and there would be a slight possibility that Shields would actually submit some dudes.

A cat could scratch Jake Shields, but Gsp can't

by DL2kold on May 3, 2011 3:37 PM EDT reply actions

GSP is the man

I take much pleasure in knowing that every time GSP wins, 2/3 of BE will be unhappy.

by Wrestling Uber Alles on May 3, 2011 10:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

I appreciate GSP, and I appreciate posts like this.

I just hope that you’re not trying to convince the haters out there, it’s just not worth the effort anymore.

I still enjoyed watching the main event, partly because I’m french Canadian and I understood what GSP what saying and how serious the situation was. I knew exactly what was going on and I was worried about the last two rounds because of it. Losing sight is a total mind fuck. Personally, I would have said “fuck it, take me to the hospital quick”.

My only beef against GSP’s performance would be the fact that, had he actually been more aggressive earlier on, he could probably have caused way more damage to Shields and avoided the eye poke. The more time GSP gives to his opponents, the higher the chances of incidents like this become. I understand that his opponents aren’t taking much more risks than he is at this point, and that it makes it more difficult for GSP to actually finish, but after 2 mins in the first round it was already clear that Shields was cannon fodder on the feet and that he wouldn’t take GSP down. Whatever plan they had to knock out Shields under 5 rounds, they probably could have executed in 2.

by NinjaCodah on May 3, 2011 10:51 PM EDT reply actions

Well, avoiding the eyepoke is a butterfly-flaps-his-wings type of thing, especially for that type of severity. If ate some poutine the week before it probably wouldn’t have happened.

I don’t know if aggressiveness works for finishing. All GSP’s opponents (except Fitch) seem to go into defensive mode when GSP scores early. He’d be better served by pulling a Silva – measure for a while, do a little dancing, etc – to make them think they have a chance.

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions

What I surmised from this is that Carlos Condit must fight GSP.

Good write up though.

It's just a world, it's just a life.

by DirtyML on May 3, 2011 11:08 PM EDT reply actions

What would be your plan for GSP? The immediate options are:
1. Anderson Silva
2. Nick Diaz
3. Condit/DHK winner

by paythefighters on May 3, 2011 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions

You need someone not afraid of GSP in there, someone who will push the pace and not care if the fight goes to the ground or stays upright. That fits all those guys you listed to a T, except DHK, who’s an extremely lite version of GSP and he’d have absolutely nothing for GSP. But in order of preference, I’d like to see GSP fight Silva, Diaz, Condit, Fitch, Penn. The first 3 would push GSP, Silva with his length, precision and quickness, Diaz and Condit with their relentless style, and while I do believe Fitch and Penn fights go exactly as their last respective fights with GSP, those were awesome fights and I would love to see them again.

by Shnak on May 4, 2011 7:51 AM EDT up reply actions

Agreed. They should all be more exciting than GSP’s recent opponents, particularly because they’re always looking to win.

by paythefighters on May 4, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions

Well said, my friend. Well said.

"We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers-thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses. Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams."

Gals Guide to MMA
Twitter - @GalsGuideJackie

by Jackie Maden on May 3, 2011 11:30 PM EDT reply actions

This is what GSP does for the division

He makes it look WAY better then it actually is. Why the hell do people even consider it the deepest division? Or even the second deepest division? Most of the fighters are not that good compared to the top ten of other divisions

Honestly how is Fitch better then Gilbert Melendez or Machida?
Or Alves better then Rampage or Maynard?
Koscheck better then Jim Miller or Rashad?

by DarthKitty on May 4, 2011 2:23 AM EDT reply actions

How is GSP making the WW division look better when he’s humiliating anyone he’s facing without much (apparent) effort on his part?

And I believe the only UFC division with more depth than WW is LW, all the other have a huge dropoff after 9-10 guys, while LW and WW have legit top-level talents up to number 15-20, IMO.

by Shnak on May 4, 2011 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions

GSP carries his division

Everyone assumes that he is so good, that everyone he fights and doesn’t finish is just so tough, and so good that he just can’t do it. They just cannot accept the fact GSP no longer has the killer instinct he once has

by DarthKitty on May 4, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Please, it's the complete opposite

Every time he goes to decision, people say his opponents have shit striking so GSP’s must also be mediocre for not finishing.

GSP doesn’t make anyone look good. Fitch was nothing but a can-crusher (like Cote) after GSP beat him, but then he kept winning. His second win over BJ was due to BJ’s lack of motivation and size, not his skill. His win over Alves was because Alves had bad takedown defense and wasn’t himself.

Watch GSP-Hughes II. It’s basically the same as GSP-Shields, except Shields has a better chin. GSP blasts Hughes with a superman punch and he gets stunned and soon dropped. GSP blasts Shields across the ring with a jab and Shields bounces back up. GSP is keeping Hughes at bay to avoid the takedown, avoids it when Hughes gets a hold of him. Same against Shields. GSP hits Hughes with a headkick and he’s dazed on the floor. He hits Shields with a headkick and Shields grabs the same leg, going for the takedown, then lies on his back kicking GSP away.

It’s the same GSP, same killer instinct, only the current one has cleaner striking and is impossible to hit (if he has both eyes).

by paythefighters on May 4, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions

The WW division is full of defensive fighters

And yes, their defense is way better than any of those guys (but I’ll admit that Machida comes close).

The UFC threw the most offensively gifted WWs on the planet at Koscheck – Lytle, Alves, Daley, Rumble – and they couldn’t do as much damage as GSP.

Shields’ defense is insane. Hendo, Daley, Lawler, and Condit couldn’t do as much damage to Shields as GSP either.

Fitch is not as tested, but he’s stifled BJ and Alves. Take a 170lb version of anyone except Silva at MW or LW and Fitch does the same, including Melendez. Machida and Fitch is a pretty bizarre comparison, but I certainly wouldn’t favor Shogun or Rampage against a 20% bigger Fitch.

I’m not sure why you think GSP makes them look good. If anything, he makes them look so bad that people like you think he’s not trying.

by paythefighters on May 4, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions

GSP is a smart fighter in a division of wrestlers. He fights safe, and smart. He maximizes his chances of winning and minimizes the chances of us enjoying watching it.

Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!

by crizzy on May 4, 2011 12:41 PM EDT reply actions

Safe or not, WW title fights would have a less action without him. So no, he doesn’t minimize enjoyment at all. Which of the matchups I listed would you enjoy more?

Whether that sacrifice is worth having a more competitive division, who knows.

by paythefighters on May 4, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Perhaps he doesnt lessen the enjoyment to you. To me, as a long time UFC fan from UFC 1 onward, his style turns MMA into a game. MMA to me is a sport where the goal is to finish an opponent. That is the ultimate desired outcome in martial arts for self defense, so is it for MMA. I think fighting a game plan to win on points is very effective, but also very boring and predictable. All the same, it is up to the fighters in the division to beat GSP regardless of what strategy he uses. The problem is, most of the top tier fighters at WW are just less skilled versions of GSP. To each his own. I am not saying people that like GSP and enjoy his fights are wrong, I am just stating my reality.

Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!

by crizzy on May 4, 2011 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions

You missed the point

Which of the hypothetical title matches that I listed in the fanpost would you like more than GSP’s fights?

If GSP is lowering enjoyment, then it means we’d have more excitement without him.

by paythefighters on May 4, 2011 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Alves Koscheck wasn’t boring… but no way either of those guys would be WW title holder as long as Fitch and Shields are also in the WW division, so that’s a moot point. Any combination of fights involving Fitch and Shields will be boring, no doubts about it.

by Shnak on May 5, 2011 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions

True, but Alves-Koscheck was not as exciting as Alves-GSP, and a five-round Alves-Koscheck fight with a full camp for Koscheck would have even less action.

by paythefighters on May 5, 2011 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions

Maybe, but I’d like to see a rematch of that fight once Koscheck comes back, and Alves is done with Story. That’d be a good fight to see where both guys stand in the division.

by Shnak on May 5, 2011 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions