Four Issues With the Strikeforce Heavyweight GP Going Forward
by who me on May 20, 2011 7:10 AM EDT
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Edited and Promoted to the Front Page by Anton Tabuena
January 5th 2011 we learned that Strikeforce was going to hold a heavyweight tournament designed to shock the world. Right off the bat many people wondered if Strikeforce could pull it off, nearly 6 months later not only do those concerns still remain a whole new set of concerns have popped up. The biggest development has been that the company was bought out by Zuffa. Dana White has flat out stated numerous times that he isn’t a fan of tournaments and Rich Chou the matchmaker who originally booked the tournament isn’t even with the company anymore. Still it looks like "business as usual" has so far at least appeared that they are planning on finishing this thing but plenty of issues remain so I thought I’d take a look at some of them:
1. Does anyone still even care?
So far in 6 months they have managed to have two tournament fights (and three reserve fights). Hopefully the two coming up June 18th will revive interest but a lot of the initial excitement about this tournament has really died down. Fedor lost in the first round and beyond Overeem vs Werdum the match ups all lack that big time fight feel. Heck the excitement seems to revolve more around future dream match ups between Strikeforce and UFC heavyweights as opposed to Strikeforce heavyweights fighting each other. If they just did Overeem/Werdum vs Bigfoot and then called it a day would anyone be that choked up? For that matter if they just changed Overeem vs Werdum to a title fight and forgot about the tournament altogether would anyone lose any sleep?
2. Josh Barnett
Josh doesn’t have a CSAC license and apparently doesn’t have any plans to ever get one thus he’s always going to be hard to book around for Strikeforce. If he beats Brett Rogers(and honestly he should) then where are they going to hold the next round of fights? Not California, not Nevada and not New Jersey that’s for sure. Strikeforce now being a Zuffa company is going to make it real hard on any fighter who doesn’t have a Nevada fighter’s license. Will Zuffa make special booking arrangements for Josh Barnett to continue in this tournament? Will Zuffa even book events with a fighter that NSAC hasn’t licensed? Heck will Zuffa continue to work with Josh Barnett even if he managed to get a NSAC license? A Brett Rogers loss is going to bring up a lot of questions for this going forward.
3. Brock Lesnar
Sure the recent rumor of Overeem dropping out of the tournament and moving to the UFC doesn’t hold a lot of water but how much water will it hold 6 months from now? Can Overeem fill Brock Lesnar’s shoes? Does Zuffa even expect him to? What’s more important to Zuffa, finishing this tournament or getting a world title contender to fight the winner of Velasquez vs Dos Santos/Carwin? If Overeem beats Werdum in June and Silva this fall and Velasquez defends his belt in October then what’s the more exciting move, Overeem vs Velasquez to unify the belts on New Year’s Eve or Overeem finishing the tournament against Kharitonov/Rogers/Barnett and Velasquez fighting the winner of Mir vs. Nelson? The UFC is looking at a world where Lesnar may be gone for good, Carwin is a short timer and Mir and Big Country are their serious title contenders left.
4. What if Alistair Overeem loses?
If Overeem loses to Werdum does anyone actually want to see a rematch of Werdum vs. Silva? Without Fedor and Overeem is this tournament a lame duck? Part of the problem with the way they top loaded this thing is that it very well could start with a bang and end with a whimper. Without Overeem the reserve bout match ups become nearly as interesting as the tournament ones (the loss of Del Rosario vs. Cormier is a real blow). This darn thing is taking forever and a payoff of Werdum vs. Barnett just doesn't seem to be worth the time or effort.
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Well, Werdum/Silva I was a pretty good fight IIRC, so I wouldn’t be opposed to the matchup…
Ideally, the tournament proceeds with Overeem vs. Barnett in the final, but where can you put it? I think perhaps some “higher-ups” in the UFC guide Barnett through the process of reapplying for his license.
And since Cain Velasquez will fight at most one time this year, I don’t think they’re so pressed for time and contenders that they would raid SF with the tourney still in it’s first leg. The very first round was such a resounding success, they might as well see if lightning is still in the bottle.
I'M AT THE PIZZA HUT. I'M AT THE TACO BELL. I'M AT THAT COMBINATION PIZZA HUT AND TACO BELL.
Rumor is UFC 136 in Houston for Cain’s fight, that’s October 8th. The Superbowl show 2012 would probably be more likely than New Years for Cain’s second fight back but the reasoning stays the same. After Dos Santos/Carwin who is Cain Velasquez going to fight from the UFC? Will this tournament be finished by then? Quite possibly not, you are looking at a second round no earlier than September/October and a final in 2012 for it too. Of course this is all speculation but if it comes down to a GP final with at best Josh Barnett or a belt unification mega-fight which do you think Zuffa will want to go with?
As for the first round being such a success, well they haven’t even finished it yet. The Fedor fight was a resounding success for the company but it’s been five months since Fedor vs Silva and there is no more Fedor in the tournament. Their original plan was to be done in the fall but the way it is going they will be lucky to have the second round in the fall.
I think if Schaub beats Big Nog in Rio in a couple months, it’s very plausible that they position him against the Mir/Nelson winner for a #1 contender’s fight. I think the UFC is more than willing to give Schaub a “push”, so to speak, and the time frame pretty much works out for whenever he could get the title shot. Whoever emerges from the Schaub/Nog/Mir/Nelson group is a valid contender, and I think the only unappealing matchups that could come out of that are Mir/Carwin II and Nog/Velasquez II, but those are also the least probable IMO. The time it’d take for all this to settle would, I think, provide ample room for the tournament to run its course, then we see Strikeforce’s best heavyweights heading to the UFC in Spring 2012, as I’ve always thought would happen. And I think steam will really get going for the Grand Prix again if they start having all the fights from both sides of the bracket on the same card — that’s one of the few things that’s irked me about the first leg of the tournament (and the gap between fights, obviously).
I was carried to Ohio in a swarm of bees, I'll never marry but Ohio don't remember me.
by Anthony Pace on May 19, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
"it’s been five months since Fedor vs Silva "
It won’t even be 4 months until June 12th
June 18th, 2011:
Fabricio Werdoomsday
Game Overeem
I will NEVER doubt the greatness of GSP again
Start becoming interested in this movie right NOW!http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_tree_of_life_2011/
by Chris Groves on May 19, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Werdum/Silva I wasn’t that great… it was the guy with the sloppy boxing out-boxing the guy with the sloppier boxing. Not much to see in that fight.
Right, so how did the guy with the sloppier boxing outbox Arlovski? Maybe he’s a little more skilled and quicker than you give him credit for?
I swear, Bigfoot is the most underrated fighter at HW. The guy has sick BJJ, the most vicious GnP in the division, and decent standup.
by paythefighters on May 20, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
At that point Snooky from Jersey Shore could outbox Arlovski
Drinking a glass of water is more difficult than knocking out Arlovski.
Here’s my take:
Strikeforce is a vetigal promotion – useless. As soon as they have finished all their commitments they should close it down and fold it into the UFC. And what are their commitments? Holding the 15 events they promised Showtime subscribers this year and finishing the GP. If Zuffa had purchased a sinking I would feel differently, but instead they outbid everyone for a viable promotion.
Now about the GP. To breath new life in it I would make every Overeem (or whomever beats him) fight for the belt and then I would announce that the winner would automatically get a shot at the UFC belt. So even if Overeem doesn’t win it whomever does is going to be the Strikeforce champ and GP champ and have a lot of heat behind them. Think, if Werdum wins it he’ll have beaten Fedor, Overeem, Bigfoot twice, and probably Barnett since leaving the UFC. You’re telling me you wouldn’t be thinking he was a legitimate contender? Hell if JDS is champ you can play up how out of shape he was and how this is payback.
After that Strikeforce can wander off and die.
if Werdum wins it he’ll have beaten Fedor, Overeem, Bigfoot twice, and probably Barnett
Hell, with that resume, he might have a legitimate claim to #1 heavyweight in the world (although there is the JDS stain he can’t erase)
I was carried to Ohio in a swarm of bees, I'll never marry but Ohio don't remember me.
by Anthony Pace on May 19, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
this tournament decides the #1 hw in the world imo.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on May 20, 2011 12:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I don't think this decides #1 at all
With the exception of Rogers and barnett, there are only 3 top 10 HW’s in this tournement. One got crushed by the guy ranked below him (Werdum).
One who hasn’t fought and WON against anyone actually worth a damn (in MMA) since the first time he moved to Heavyweight in 2005! Overeem’s most impressive heavyweight victory was against Sergei, but when they rematched he got slumped over the ropes for his troubles. People like to bring up the Brett Rogers win even though Brett was coming off of a loss and had no business in the cage with the champion. I mean… he hasn’t lost at HW since 07’ to the previously mention Sergei and yet because he is fighting CAN’s he is only 7th on the Rankings board.
I don’t really have a problem with Silva other than I want to see a LARGE HW (i.e. Shane Carwin, JDS) crack him in that huge chin of his to see if he can take it. Personally I doubt anyone on the planet could take a power shot from Shane, but that is neither here nor there. I think if someone could keep it standing and had real power in their stand up… Silva would have some problems.
You CANNOT be #1 without BEATING the #1 who at this point in time is Cain Velasquez. If the winner of the tournemet fought Cain… THAT would decide who the best is.
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes." – Winston Churchill
I disagree with that,
if that were true, Werdum would be #1.
The only objective way to rank fighters is by the quality and quantity of wins/ losses, giving precedence to more recent events.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on May 20, 2011 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Winner of Werdum/ Overeem
has a strong case for #1. Unless Junior beats Carwin, in which case I think he’s the rightful #1.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest! The girl in my av is Kari Sweets (you're welcome).
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on May 20, 2011 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
So guys who are ranked 11-20 beating each other are the best in the world?
Ok Werdum deserves better than that comment but due seriously?
I doubt this is possible
Overeem most likely has a contract that stipulates “your title is not on the line”.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
I'm in!
I agree SF should be “folded” or at least re-branded and continue as a secondary UFC promotion.
As part of this, the titles absolutely must be unified and have the mess cleaned up. Then if you continue SF in some capacity, you can use tournaments to crown new division champs, thus creating some interest in the new UFC/SF promotion.
As for the GP, try and keep it intact and salvage as much out of it as possible. This is the big boon in the purchase, getting all the HW’s. Sure, give the winner a title shot. Why not? it isn’t as if the current UFC roster is brimming with contenders and proven guys. They have a couple of names and some nice up and comers, but most of the established HW’s will come from teh SF side.
I agree with who me’s sentiment that the UFC HW division is in a state of flux right now. CC is done, Couture is gone, Nog is nearing the end, Lesnar very well may be finished and even if he isn’t, they need to prepare for that eventuality, Carwin is aging, Kongo has never realized the expectations. Even fighters like Mitrione, who has some momentum amongst fans, is no spring chicken in the fight world. I hate to see these great guys fade and move on, but it is reality.
I wrote an expansive fanpost on my ideas for what to do with Strikeforce last week, I don’t think anyone read it.
I’d like to see them merge the rosters and the matchmaking and just use Strikeforce as a separate touring promotion under the same overall brand. Same fighters working the same system for the same belt just a different promotional brand they can market for a tv contract.
Will not happen
The UFC will not promote a second brand with the same weigh-classes. They get better TV contracts, less overhead and better brand-recognition by having everything under the UFC umbrella. If they want another outlet for new talent besides TUF, they’ll create another line of UFC shows for it like Strikeforce did with “Challengers”. The Strikeforce brand will vanish, I’d bet the house on it.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
All they would have to do is write “UFC presents Strikeforce” on the posters for a while. If they were just using them as a separate touring company but merged the rosters and matchmaking then it wouldn’t be a second brand of MMA it would just be a second series of UFC events. Instead of creating another line of UFC shows from scratch just take this already existing line of shows and do the same thing with something that is already established. The more events they schedule in North America and around the world the more touring and event production groups they will need, the same guys can’t do every show. Strikeforce the secondary promotion is done but if they want to keep all these fighters signed and fighting they are going to need to do 50 to 60 shows a year and that’s going to take more than one event group.
It still makes no sense
unless you mean they make another “Fight Night”-kind of series of events and just call it “UFC Strikeforce” with all the Strikeforce branding gone or redesigned into the UFCs CI. Then it’s just what I said, only with the Strikeforce name still attached. Anything else is makes no business sense. Why waste money and effort to popularize a second brand?
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
If they stick with Showtime then it will probably stay Strikeforce on Showtime. One of their biggest problems with getting shows on other channels has been that the UFC was exclusive with SpikeTV (the only reason the WEC existed under Zuffa). A second event brand allows them to sign multiple media contracts even if “exclusive” rights are still on the table (I’m willing to bet Strikeforce is exclusive to Showtime currently).
An example (and yes I know it’s a shitty example) would be how the WWE has Smackdown and Raw on two separate channels and sells them as two separate promotions with separate tv contracts even though we all know it’s the same damn thing. If the UFC signs with NBC (which has been rumored) but still wants to work with Showtime/CBS or ESPN/ABC in the future too they are going to need something branded different, even if it’s the same fighters under the same umbrella. Strikeforce would just be the name of their shows they sell under a different media contract.
If they were somewhat driven into such a contract situation I could see that being a good idea. However, the way the UFC has done business so far makes me think, they won’t sign contracts like that. It will be something like “UFC on Versus”, or nothing, IMO.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
1. Fuck yes I still care. It’s as good a tournament as any out there, even if it’s progression is taking forfuckingever. Considering how much more efficiently that Zuffa has been able to get match-ups booked now that they’ve taken over StrikeForce, I’m not nearly as worried about whether or not it will actually finish. Furthermore, the entire thing is set up just like a natural progression of challengers would be. Werdum should be the immediate #1 contender. The winner of BigFoot/Fedor would make a lot of sense as the challenger after that even if there were no tournament. Kharitonov, coming off a win over Arlovski, makes sense facing the winner of Rogers/Barnett to be the next contender after that. That it’s an actual tournament is completely appropriate.
2. Josh Barnett is not barred from getting a license forever. If he passes steroid tests in states that will sanction him for a couple years, then California and Nevada will very probably relent and grant him a license if he passes drug testing there as well. His situation, even with multiple failures, is not the same as Chael Sonnen’s, who on top of doping perjured himself by throwing the NSAC head under the bus (which tends to piss people off more than doping by itself does).
3. & 4. Brock Lesnar will probably return to the sport (a bowel resection will put you on the shelf for a long time but it is not career-ending; even two of them aren’t), but if Overeem can’t win this tournament he won’t be able to fill Brock Lesnar’s shoes in the first place, and if he can’t get by Werdum we’ll all have to wonder if he wasn’t a paper tiger. Overeem is not someone the mainstream fan knows, but if he gets on CBS perhaps, and the UFC marketing machine really gets behind the guy leading up to the merger, then yes, they will know who he is. But he has to win in the first place.
And as for whether or not it’s “worth the effort,” what else is StrikeForce going to do with it’s heavyweight division? I want to know who the best fighter they have is, even if it’s Josh Barnett, and we’re going to find out.
And as for whether or not it’s "worth the effort," what else is StrikeForce going to do with it’s heavyweight division? I want to know who the best fighter they have is, even if it’s Josh Barnett, and we’re going to find out.
The general thought that has been coming from the “experts” is that what Strikeforce is going to do with their heavyweight division is to send them to the UFC and close shop once the the Showtime contract runs out. It’s no longer about who is the best MMA heavyweight in Strikeforce now that Zuffa is the owner it’s about which heavyweight is the best period and the proof of that is going to be wearing the UFC belt from here on out. I’m not sure if the UFC is just going to absorb Strikeforce in 2012 but can there be any doubt that in the near future they are going to gut them of top talent. I want to see them finish this up but honestly if they didn’t it wouldn’t be the end of the world and that is a real issue for this tournament now.
1. Fuck yes I still care
Of course we all care, we are hardcore fanatics, we care about pretty much everything related to the sport. The question is whether casual fans have lost interest or not.
As far as the tournament being a natural progression on challengers well that would hold true if they were actually challenging for something but the Strikeforce belt isn’t on the line. It’s a natural progression of title challengers in non-title fights, which was one of the big problems with this from the very start.
2. Josh Barnett is not barred from getting a license forever.
No he’s not and if anyone can get him to finally make it through the process of clearing this up it’s Zuffa. Of course Dana White may just decide that it would be more fun to take a piss on Josh Barnett instead of helping him with a career in Zuffa too. The UFC even runs all their overseas self regulation issues/processes through NSAC, getting his problems straightened out isn’t really an optional thing for Barnett anymore like it was when it was just Coker and Strikeforce.
but if Overeem can’t win this tournament he won’t be able to fill Brock Lesnar’s shoes in the first place, and if he can’t get by Werdum we’ll all have to wonder if he wasn’t a paper tiger.
Agree 100% with that but really after the Werdum fight this isn’t going to be a big time fighter building exercise for him. After beating the first guy to beat Fedor then he would be looking at fighting the second guy to beat Fedor and then at the end it’s either the unknown in the US Kharitonov the guy he’s already beat down Rogers or the guy best known to casual fans at the person who keeps failing drug test Barnett. The meaning for casual fans of these fights decreases with every round instead of increasing. Overeem has to win to even be considered for being the next big thing but finishing the tournament proves less than just winning his first round bout.
In random order:
Of course we all care, we are hardcore fanatics, we care about pretty much everything related to the sport. The question is whether casual fans have lost interest or not.
Why would they? Strikeforce’s fanbase is disproportionately made up of hardcores to begin with, and the casual ones are not folks who make a huge distinction between the UFC and Strikeforce anyway. I don’t think these fights are going to be less relevant to them.
As far as the tournament being a natural progression on challengers well that would hold true if they were actually challenging for something but the Strikeforce belt isn’t on the line. It’s a natural progression of title challengers in non-title fights, which was one of the big problems with this from the very start.
And yet there’s still a title at the end of it, and the original title lineage is fed into that. Everyone in this tournament is challenging for the title, just as a natural progression would be. The only difference is all of them have to win three straight to lay their hands on it. That it’s formally set up as a tournament with the Champion participating and not an informal build up with title eliminators (that don’t always make for title eliminators), makes the end result more relevant not less.
The general thought that has been coming from the "experts" is that what Strikeforce is going to do with their heavyweight division is to send them to the UFC and close shop once the the Showtime contract runs out. It’s no longer about who is the best MMA heavyweight in Strikeforce now that Zuffa is the owner it’s about which heavyweight is the best period and the proof of that is going to be wearing the UFC belt from here on out. I’m not sure if the UFC is just going to absorb Strikeforce in 2012 but can there be any doubt that in the near future they are going to gut them of top talent. I want to see them finish this up but honestly if they didn’t it wouldn’t be the end of the world and that is a real issue for this tournament now.
I think almost everyone agrees that the UFC will absorb Strikeforce down the road. The Showtime contract ends at the end of 2012. That time is not now. That is 18 months from now, and there is a lot of time between now and then. Time which can be used to build Strikeforce up into a scrumptious Thanksgiving turkey, rather than immediately gut them like a fish, which would be a retarded thing to do. Considering they’ve already replaced Strikeforce’s office with the WEC hierarchy, and are giving us higher quality cards now, I really don’t think this is what they’re going to do. Furthermore folding the top Strikeforce fighters into the UFC today is stupid pointless when they’re still integrating the WEC and just added two new divisions (unique situations like Mayhem not being able to fight on television in Strikeforce aside, or Nick Diaz trying to hold his title hostage).
As for who is the best period, I agree that right belongs to Cain Velasquez right now, but the Strikeforce HW division is the deepest division anywhere outside of the UFC, and at the same time it just happens to be the UFC’s shallowest division. If one of the perceived lesser fighters in the Strikeforce tournament wins the tournament, at worst it just means that Strikeforce will tread water, and you’ll still have a bunch of solid-to-great HWs to import to the UFC, same as you have right now. If Overeem wins though, you have a new potential superstar, and the fight between him and whoever is UFC Champion down the road will become a mega event. I don’t think beating Werdum alone will be enough, he has to win the tournament. And if he can’t do it, then Werdum, Barnett, and Big Foot are all viable champions who could make for a meaningful UFC unification match with the proper build behind them.
Overeem has to win to even be considered for being the next big thing but finishing the tournament proves less than just winning his first round bout.
It certainly doesn’t prove “less” if he wins the whole thing, the first round is just the most important for him.
Why would they? Strikeforce’s fanbase is disproportionately made up of hardcores to begin with, and the casual ones are not folks who make a huge distinction between the UFC and Strikeforce anyway. I don’t think these fights are going to be less relevant to them.
It was also made up of a lot of people who thought that Fedor was going to win it all too. All Zuffa cares about is making Strikeforce’s fanbase their own fanbase and selling PPVs, this tournament on Showtime doesn’t make them the money a PPV would and half the fighters left have little or no name recognition at all with casual fans.
And yet there’s still a title at the end of it, and the original title lineage is fed into that.
So if Overeem wins he fights himself for the title? If someone beats Overeem but doesn’t win the tournament they don’t get to fight for the title? As even you have pointed out it’s a title belt that at best only has 18 more months to exist anyway and it’s going to be into 2012 before they can finish this thing off the way they are going. The only world title belt in the sport that matters now is the UFC belt, all these guys are Zuffa fighters and Zuffa’s premier belt is the one that Cain Velasquez is holding. The minute Zuffa bought Strikeforce this belt (which has only been defended one time since November of 2007) became pretty darn meaningless except as a way to get a UFC title shot.
Considering they’ve already replaced Strikeforce’s office with the WEC hierarchy, and are giving us higher quality cards now, I really don’t think this is what they’re going to do.
They have already replaced the Strikeforce office with Zuffa personnel and the President of Zuffa Dana White has always been very vocal that he doesn’t like tournaments. It shouldn’t surprise anyone if they just scrap it and call Overeem vs Werdum a world title fight, because I would imagine that is what Dana would want to do. The second side of the bracket is a Russian who has only fought twice in the US in his career and a guy who Overeem destroyed last time out and a guy who Dana White dislikes and may chose to not do business with at all once Strikeforce is absorbed. Heck it’s sort of surprising that Dana White hasn’t just stood up and announced they were scrapping the whole thing already and just having Overeem defend his title against Werdum and then Silva. Zuffa putting their own staff in charge of Strikeforce is a reason to be less sure going forward with the tournament not more sure of it.
It certainly doesn’t prove "less" if he wins the whole thing, the first round is just the most important for him.
If he beats the first guy to beat Fedor then pretty much everyone is going to assume that he can also beat the second guy who beat Fedor and the whole second side of the brackets is fights only a true hardcore fan would care about at all. If you rated beating Werdum as a 10 on the importance scale then beating Bigfoot Silva would be a 6 and beating anyone on the other bracket would be a 2 (although Barnett may be the most difficult fighter to beat). Casual fans interest in this will go down with every bracket instead of going up and a win over Werdum should give Overeem enough US steam for Zuffa to sell a decent PPV on (which would make them 10 times the money a event on Showtime would).
Hey I want them to finish the darn thing, I don’t like something being started and not finished but you have to admit that there is no guarantee that this thing will even make it to a second round. There are a lot of things stacking up against it.
It was also made up of a lot of people who thought that Fedor was going to win it all too. All Zuffa cares about is making Strikeforce’s fanbase their own fanbase and selling PPVs, this tournament on Showtime doesn’t make them the money a PPV would and half the fighters left have little or no name recognition at all with casual fans.
1) Not many “casual” fans know these guys but certainly the people who watch Strikeforce do, aka the people Zuffa wants to add to their fanbase (except they already have).
2) There is a strong possibility that the tournament finals could be put on PPV. Keep in mind that right now, the UFC is about maxed out with market saturation at 16 PPVs a year. But if they could do a few Strikeforce PPVs over the next few years in the meantime they can reach beyond that for now, at least with the hardcores who will always buy PPVs with highly credible fights on it. I assume this will probably not prove to be the best use of Strikeforce talent, but only after SF is built up. If the UFC had merged with the WEC when even most hardcore didn’t know who the fuck Urijah Faber and Miguel Torres were it wouldn’t have meant as much. But they waited until the WEC hit a ceiling and a lot of their rosters had at least some recognition from the fanbase. Same principle with Strikeforce: build them up using the Zuffa marketing machine until they are considered stars in their own right, then merge.
And yet there’s still a title at the end of it, and the original title lineage is fed into that.
So if Overeem wins he fights himself for the title? If someone beats Overeem but doesn’t win the tournament they don’t get to fight for the title? As even you have pointed out it’s a title belt that at best only has 18 more months to exist anyway and it’s going to be into 2012 before they can finish this thing off the way they are going. The only world title belt in the sport that matters now is the UFC belt, all these guys are Zuffa fighters and Zuffa’s premier belt is the one that Cain Velasquez is holding. The minute Zuffa bought Strikeforce this belt (which has only been defended one time since November of 2007) became pretty darn meaningless except as a way to get a UFC title shot.
It means no matter where Overeem exits the tournament his lineage is fed into the new title, unless he gets beat by someone who has to leave the tournament himself due to injury (and I’m sure in that scenario that that person will then get the first title shot at the conclusion of the tournament anyway). Do you know what a “”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineal_championship" target="new">linear championship" is (short version: “to be the man you have to beat the man”)?
Furthermore, are you saying all title eliminators can’t be draws on their own right? Or a #1 contender’s tournament for that matter? What’s more, it’s far from impossible that the best person in Strikeforce isn’t the best person in the world. Do you think that if they did title unification matches in all five common divisions that the UFC is absolutely going to win all five? I don’t give Hendo much of a shot against Jon Jones, or Jacare much of a shot against Anderson Silva. Gilbert Melendez though is as credible as any challenger out there once Maynard and Edgar finish what they started, only he’s just not that well known yet, and I don’t know that Cain is invincible yet. Maybe after he’s had a few defenses.
They have already replaced the Strikeforce office with Zuffa personnel and the President of Zuffa Dana White has always been very vocal that he doesn’t like tournaments.
He hates them so much that he only dedicates a tv series to them twice a year, and when asked specifically about the SF Grand Prix before they purchased Strikeforce or it was even for sale, he said “I love that shit”. The reason he doesn’t do it in the UFC is that he knows in an 8-man tournament, seven people are going out on a loss. But when considering that casual UFC fans don’t really know the remaining six people in the tournament, and Kharitonov, Rogers, and Bigfoot don’t have much to lose, and Barnett needs to stay active if he’s ever going to get a license in Nevada or California again, and everyone agrees that Overeem vs. Werdum is a logical match-up right now, this is much less of a concern.
It shouldn’t surprise anyone if they just scrap it and call Overeem vs Werdum a world title fight, because I would imagine that is what Dana would want to do. The second side of the bracket is a Russian who has only fought twice in the US in his career and a guy who Overeem destroyed last time out and a guy who Dana White dislikes and may chose to not do business with at all once Strikeforce is absorbed. Heck it’s sort of surprising that Dana White hasn’t just stood up and announced they were scrapping the whole thing already and just having Overeem defend his title against Werdum and then Silva. Zuffa putting their own staff in charge of Strikeforce is a reason to be less sure going forward with the tournament not more sure of it.
First off, what? Kharitonov knocked Overeem out the last time they fought! He’s also the last person to beat Overeem! I think you have the dates of their two fights backwards. Beyond that, I don’t think you really know what is going on in Dana White’s mind. Consider that the UFC constantly needs new stars and new blood, at the world title contention level, the gatekeeper level, the midcarder level, and the prospect level. Kharitonov is a new name that can be built up off a bludgeoning of Arlovski, even if he wasn’t the first man to do it, and can also be built with their Pride footage. He’s also Overeem’s teammate yet they have no problem facing each other (Golden Glory is unusual in that respect), which is a precedent he’d love to encourage. And again, he’s the last person to beat Overeem and having a rubber match between the two is a built-in storyline. As for Barnett, Dana apparently doesn’t hate Barnett anymore (he did sink Affliction for them), and if they can’t get Barnett relicensed in California/Nevada, I seriously doubt they can do it with Sonnen. Finally, if they were going to stop the tournament, I think they would have done it now, before the next advertised event that says “World Heavyweight Grand Prix” in it, which happens to have both Overeem and Barnett in it. It’s an already stacked card, so if they were going to change it, they could simply make Rogers/Cormier, give Monson a late-notice scrub on the undercard, and make Overeem/Werdum a World Title match. Pretty sure that is not their intention.
If he beats the first guy to beat Fedor then pretty much everyone is going to assume that he can also beat the second guy who beat Fedor and the whole second side of the brackets is fights only a true hardcore fan would care about at all. If you rated beating Werdum as a 10 on the importance scale then beating Bigfoot Silva would be a 6 and beating anyone on the other bracket would be a 2 (although Barnett may be the most difficult fighter to beat). Casual fans interest in this will go down with every bracket instead of going up and a win over Werdum should give Overeem enough US steam for Zuffa to sell a decent PPV on (which would make them 10 times the money a event on Showtime would).
You’re reducing the whole thing to roundabout MMAth. We’re still marketing to both casual fans (whose minds are swayed by the way something is marketed) and hardcores (who will watch fights with highly ranked fighters). In both cases while Overeem vs. Werdum is the easier sell, it’s not like Overeem vs. Big Foot is like selling Jon Fitch in a mirror match. Big Foot didn’t catch Fedor in a clever submission after pulling guard, he took the first round, and then beat Fedor like a child in the second round from pillar to post. He’s not only a very good striker with fists like battering rams a chin like a truck bumper, he has good take downs, is a BBJ blackbelt, and is bigger and probably stronger than Overeem. He can be sold to casual fans. I admit that the interest level would go down but Overeem vs. Big Foot would still be sellable. And if Werdum wins, then they damn well better finish the tournament since then the winner is going to need the credibility boost from it.
On the other side of the bracket, Rogers vs. Overeem I admit would be a horrible final, even with the rematch angle (Rogers vs. anyone in the finals would be bad actually). Other than that, it’s not hard to market either Kharitonov or Barnett to casual fans. Barnett is a former UFC Champion who won’t have lost in over 5 years by the time the finals come around, and has never lost to someone who wasn’t ranked in the Top 5 in the world at the time. Kharitonov, again, is the last person to beat Overeem and also holds a win over Werdum.
Hey I want them to finish the darn thing, I don’t like something being started and not finished but you have to admit that there is no guarantee that this thing will even make it to a second round. There are a lot of things stacking up against it.
Well, I suppose the possibility is at least plausible.
1) Not many "casual" fans know these guys but certainly the people who watch Strikeforce do, aka the people Zuffa wants to add to their fanbase (except they already have).
Zuffa has already has them. Do you think there is a significant number of people who watch Strikeforce but don’t watch the UFC? It’s not like Strikeforce had a fanbase that wasn’t aware of the UFC and didn’t watch their events. That goes double for casual fans.
2) There is a strong possibility that the tournament finals could be put on PPV.
Or they could just do a Stikeforce PPV with interesting fights too. You think they would headline a PPV with say Bigfoot Silva vs Brett Rogers? They don’t have to have the GP to try and do a PPV, what they probably need is Fedor to do a PPV. Imagine if they could get Randy Couture to come back for one fight against Fedor? Now that is a Strikeforce PPV they could get behind.
If the UFC had merged with the WEC when even most hardcore didn’t know who the fuck Urijah Faber and Miguel Torres were it wouldn’t have meant as much. But they waited until the WEC hit a ceiling and a lot of their rosters had at least some recognition from the fanbase. Same principle with Strikeforce: build them up using the Zuffa marketing machine until they are considered stars in their own right, then merge.
The WEC existed so Zuffa could put their programming on Versus (and keep the IFL off). Once they got to where they could do occasional UFC shows on Versus the WEC almost immediately was done away with.
No one cares about the linear title, hell even for hardcore internet fans it’s something that most don’t know or care at all about. It’s definatly not going to have any impact on Zuffa continuing or not with the GP. I can pretty much guarantee they don’t give a rats ass about the linear title.Do you know what a ""http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lineal_championship" target="new">linear championship" is (short version: "to be the man you have to beat the man")?
Furthermore, are you saying all title eliminators can’t be draws on their own right? Or a #1 contender’s tournament for that matter? What’s more, it’s far from impossible that the best person in Strikeforce isn’t the best person in the world. Do you think that if they did title unification matches in all five common divisions that the UFC is absolutely going to win all five? I don’t give Hendo much of a shot against Jon Jones, or Jacare much of a shot against Anderson Silva. Gilbert Melendez though is as credible as any challenger out there once Maynard and Edgar finish what they started, only he’s just not that well known yet, and I don’t know that Cain is invincible yet. Maybe after he’s had a few defenses.
Ok I’m just going to toss out a big Huh? to all of that. What does that have to do with this GP? Not sure what you are talking about here? I was just saying that it’s possible that Zuffa decides to end the GP early and stick Overeem in a title fight because they have no real contenders in the UFC after Dos Santos/Carwin. I’m not even suggesting Overeem would win I am just saying it’s a possibility the UFC would go with him same as they are going with Nick Diaz due to not having a stand out contender for GSP currently.
He’s said numerous times over the years that he doesn’t like tournaments, he does them on TUF because it’s a reality show and when he said he loved that shit about what Strikeforce was doing he was talking about them doing something to draw interest for those guys.Dana’s been saying in interviews for years now he doesn’t like tournaments and won’t do one in the UFC.He hates them so much that he only dedicates a tv series to them twice a year, and when asked specifically about the SF Grand Prix before they purchased Strikeforce or it was even for sale, he said "I love that shit".
First off, what? Kharitonov knocked Overeem out the last time they fought! He’s also the last person to beat Overeem! I think you have the dates of their two fights backwards.
Kharintonov is the guy who has only fought twice in the US, Rogers is the guy Overeem beat the crap out of.
Consider that the UFC constantly needs new stars and new blood, at the world title contention level, the gatekeeper level, the midcarder level, and the prospect level.
They don’t necessarily need the tournament for any of that stuff they just need to give the guys more visible fights and build them the normal way. The tournament takes 8 guys and gives you 1 contender but they could just book fights and end up with a string of potential contenders into the future. It’s not like if they don’t finish the GP they are going to fire all the participants in it, nothing would change except guys would start getting fights not build into a bracket.
Dana is known for being a reasonable and forgiving man :D Yea don’t you believe it, they may end up doing business together but what was there before is still there now.As for Barnett, Dana apparently doesn’t hate Barnett anymore
Finally, if they were going to stop the tournament, I think they would have done it now, before the next advertised event that says "World Heavyweight Grand Prix" in it, which happens to have both Overeem and Barnett in it. It’s an already stacked card, so if they were going to change it, they could simply make Rogers/Cormier, give Monson a late-notice scrub on the undercard, and make Overeem/Werdum a World Title match. Pretty sure that is not their intention.
Zuffa actually just took over Strikeforce May 9th and this thing was set and advertised by then. The real tell will be how Zuffa goes about doing the second round. It wouldn’t surprise me if they changed this card last minute but this isn’t their card it’s one the old Strikeforce staff put together, the second GP round will be all Zuffa.
You’re reducing the whole thing to roundabout MMAth.
Nah I am talking about drawing eyeballs not actual chances to win the fights. MMAthwise Overeem vs Kharintov is solid gold, drawing eyeballs it’s a guy fans are just getting to know vs some Russian dude that’s not Fedor. Overeem getting a win over Werdum will get him some real attention, getting him a win over Silva gets him less attention and the finals may not have any drawing power at all. If Werdum wins well then do you think the Werdum vs Silva rematch will sell much better than it did the first time around? In terms of sports importance there is a lot going on in the tournament, in terms of making money off of it not so much, the thing was toploaded to give the biggest fights in the first round.
Isn’t the comments section a place to have interesting discussions and talk about the sport? No one is right or wrong in this discussion, the entire post was based on question marks surrounding the GP, what could happen not what will.Well, I suppose the possibility is at least plausible.
Zuffa has already has them. Do you think there is a significant number of people who watch Strikeforce but don’t watch the UFC? It’s not like Strikeforce had a fanbase that wasn’t aware of the UFC and didn’t watch their events. That goes double for casual fans.
Believe it or not yes. The ones who only saw them on CBS. Outside of that, no, virtually everyone who watches Strikeforce on Showtimes knows about the UFC. I’m sure there are people though that watch more Strikeforce than UFC simply because it’s free, however.
Or they could just do a Stikeforce PPV with interesting fights too. You think they would headline a PPV with say Bigfoot Silva vs Brett Rogers? They don’t have to have the GP to try and do a PPV, what they probably need is Fedor to do a PPV. Imagine if they could get Randy Couture to come back for one fight against Fedor? Now that is a Strikeforce PPV they could get behind.
If the worst case scenario of Bigfoot vs. Rogers ends up as the finals then no, I’m pretty sure Strikeforce would not do a PPV. That’s not an argument against the HW Grand Prix though, just that it’s not a lock that it will produce a PPV-caliber final.
The WEC existed so Zuffa could put their programming on Versus (and keep the IFL off). Once they got to where they could do occasional UFC shows on Versus the WEC almost immediately was done away with.
And yet they managed to make the most of the WEC while it was there, promoting two new divisions with established contenders so that when they were folded into the UFC it meant a lot more. The same goes triple for Strikeforce. And no I don’t expect Strikeforce to continue past its existence on Showtime.
No one cares about the linear title, hell even for hardcore internet fans it’s something that most don’t know or care at all about. It’s definatly not going to have any impact on Zuffa continuing or not with the GP. I can pretty much guarantee they don’t give a rats ass about the linear title.
My point is that at the matches with Overeem or with anyone who manages to beat him before the finals will be no less valuable. Few people give a damn about the Strikeforce Heavyweight Championship, period, with it’s total lineage of two fights. The Grand Prix greatly increases the value of it, moreso than three consecutive fights would imo, even if it’s really just a “#1 Contender’s belt” or whatever.
He’s said numerous times over the years that he doesn’t like tournaments, he does them on TUF because it’s a reality show and when he said he loved that shit about what Strikeforce was doing he was talking about them doing something to draw interest for those guys.Dana’s been saying in interviews for years now he doesn’t like tournaments and won’t do one in the UFC.
Dana’s said a lot of things he changes his mind on (I don’t think I should list them). He still does two of them a year for prospects, and the most recent things he’s said about them are were his approval of the SF tournament before SF was for sale, and him saying that he can’t comment much on Bellator because he doesn’t have time to watch it, but “this is not to disrespect the tournament format.” I don’t forsee him doing them at all commonly in the UFC, for both the reason that 7 out of 8 guys will go out on a loss, or the fact that the last time he held one, for the vacant LW Championship, the title match was a tie and it killed the entire division (at least at the start of this tournament, SF had applied for and been granted an athletic commission exception regarding ties, where a judge must select a winner in the event of a tie score). However I don’t see him stopping a tournament that’s already begun, when he’s trying to improve Strikeforce’s image not hurt it. It is a small minority of hardcore fans that want to see it stopped at this point.
I was just saying that it’s possible that Zuffa decides to end the GP early and stick Overeem in a title fight because they have no real contenders in the UFC after Dos Santos/Carwin. I’m not even suggesting Overeem would win I am just saying it’s a possibility the UFC would go with him same as they are going with Nick Diaz due to not having a stand out contender for GSP currently.
They’ll be very close to the semi-finals of that tournament by the time Velasquez faces Dos Santos/Carwin. Meanwhile Lesnar is probably going to come back at some point, and Schaub and Nelson are still both strong prospects, and Nogueira winning his next few fights against top competition (starting with Schaub) would garner him the same sort of sympathy Randy Couture got when he had his post-retirement comeback. Even if they do decide to drop everything and stop the tournament (which would make them look ridiculous, which is the main reason I don’t think it’ll end prematurely), I don’t forsee it happening right after the quarterfinals end.
Kharintonov is the guy who has only fought twice in the US, Rogers is the guy Overeem beat the crap out of.
My bad. Thought you meant both about Kharitonov. Like I said, I agree, Rogers getting to the finals would be pretty bad. It’s also the least likely scenario and I don’t forsee that happening. But even if it does happen, he’ll have at least earned a title rematch.
Zuffa actually just took over Strikeforce May 9th and this thing was set and advertised by then. The real tell will be how Zuffa goes about doing the second round. It wouldn’t surprise me if they changed this card last minute but this isn’t their card it’s one the old Strikeforce staff put together, the second GP round will be all Zuffa.
Zuffa “took over” SF on May 9th in the technical sense only. They’ve been running the promotion since they made the purchase agreement, and could have changed and vetoed fights at any time, much like they immediately got rid of the “no-elbows-on-the-ground” rule, got rid of all amateur fights, and had a large contingent of staffers at the very first show under their control.
Dana is known for being a reasonable and forgiving man :D Yea don’t you believe it, they may end up doing business together but what was there before is still there now.
Heh. Yeah, likely. I think he’ll keep Barnett around as long as it makes business sense, which is to say as long as he’s relevant (and doesn’t fuck up another steroid test).
Isn’t the comments section a place to have interesting discussions and talk about the sport? No one is right or wrong in this discussion, the entire post was based on question marks surrounding the GP, what could happen not what will.
Eh, fair enough. I’m really sick of writing essays at this point.
My point is that at the matches with Overeem or with anyone who manages to beat him before the finals will be no less valuable. Few people give a damn about the Strikeforce Heavyweight Championship, period, with it’s total lineage of two fights. The Grand Prix greatly increases the value of it, moreso than three consecutive fights would imo, even if it’s really just a "#1 Contender’s belt" or whatever.
Yea I don’t buy that one at all. I don’t see where the GP helps the value of the Strikeforce belt being as the champion will be fighting non-title bouts and if Overeem wins he can’t fight himself for the belt. Hell wasn’t one of the ideas they were tossing around giving out a GP title belt?
They’ll be very close to the semi-finals of that tournament by the time Velasquez faces Dos Santos/Carwin. Meanwhile Lesnar is probably going to come back at some point, and Schaub and Nelson are still both strong prospects, and Nogueira winning his next few fights against top competition (starting with Schaub) would garner him the same sort of sympathy Randy Couture got when he had his post-retirement comeback. Even if they do decide to drop everything and stop the tournament (which would make them look ridiculous, which is the main reason I don’t think it’ll end prematurely), I don’t forsee it happening right after the quarterfinals end.
I figure if they do stop it then it will be after the Velasquez vs Carwin/Dos Santos fight (UFC 136 in October). That would be about the same time they will be getting around to the semi-final round. Schaub probably needs at least two wins, they could go with Nelson if he beats Mir but as it stands now neither is a very exciting contender option. As for Nog, well does anyone really want to see Nog vs Velasquez 2? If JDS wins then he wouldn’t accept a title fight, that just leaves the scenario of Nog winning at UFC 134 and Carwin beating JDS and Cain back to back. Other than that it’s Mir vs anyone as an option. That’s the big reason I see for them perhaps scraping the GP, if Overeem beats Werdum and Silva then he’s a much better title contender option for the UFC than Mir/Nelson/Schaub/Nog. I don’t think Dana White cares if Strikeforce looks ridiculous as long as he gets a title fight that can draw. They don’t need a heavyweight title contender right now but after UFC 136 they don’t have much to offer.
I’m one to finish things once they’re started, but damn,
If Overeem beats Werdum in June and Silva this fall and Velasquez defends his belt in October then what’s the more exciting move, Overeem vs Velasquez to unify the belts on New Year’s Eve or Overeem finishing the tournament against Kharitonov/Rogers/Barnett and Velasquez fighting the winner of Mir vs. Nelson?
this is difficult to argue against.
by umbalata on May 19, 2011 4:10 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Cool for you, if you think so, but my first thought is just how weak Velasquez against Mir/Nelson and Reem running through some bum is, compared to Velasquez vs. Overeem, for a fuckin’ unification belt, on fuckin’ New Years Eve. That sounds so kickass.
?????
How did you go straight to Mir vs. Nelson when it is clear that Cain will be fighting the winner of JDS vs Carwin? Yes a fight against Overeem on New Years sounds awesome, but so does JDS vs Cain OR Carwin vs Cain. The only thing that the unification fight would do is prove once and for all if Overeem was/is Overrated.
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes." – Winston Churchill
No one went straight to Mir or Nelson, the Carwin/Dos Santos vs Cain fight will of already been over and done before this tournament wraps up.
Carwin/Dos Santos vs Cain is rumored for UFC 136 on October 8th. New Years Eve is 3 months after that (about the earliest they could do a turn around from October 8th). More likely it would be in February for their big superbowl card.
With the kind of injury Cain had, I’d not be surprised if he’ll be out for some additional months after his next fight, unless he really stomps whoever it is quickly.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
Who knows, this is just all pure speculation on the situation we don’t have a crystal ball. What if Dos Santos beats Carwin and Velasquez and is standing on top of the division ready to go but not having a dance partner? I’m not saying the GP won’t finish I am just tossing out some reasons why it might not finish (as I have said several times I want them to finish it).
That’s actually true. Although I didn’t “go straight to…”, it was the poster, as seen in the quote. I just didn’t realize when I was writing it that it would be Carwin/dos Santos, and the winner of that fight vs Velasquez is a helluva lot more intriguing.
I didn’t go straight through I was talking about the fight after Carwin/dos Santos vs Cain which is supposed to happen October 6th (around the same time the second round of the tournament should be happening). The finals of the tournament and Cain’s next title defense after he fights Dos Santos/Carwin should line up pretty close too (providing it’s Cain that wins the October fight). I guess this is confusing people somehow?
Exactly. Or if Werdum runs the gauntlet and JDS defeats Cain we get to see not only a great unification bout but Werdum gets a chance to avenge his only KO loss. No matter which way you look at it it works out best if the GP finishes and then we have a unification HW bout.
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by memitim on May 19, 2011 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let Overeem crush Werdum
after that, I don’t really care what goes down.
June 18th, 2011:
Fabricio Werdoomsday
Game Overeem
I will NEVER doubt the greatness of GSP again
Start becoming interested in this movie right NOW!http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_tree_of_life_2011/
Overeem crushing Bigfoot is a good start
Sounds like Springfield's got a discipline problem.
- Maybe that's why we beat them at football nearly half the time.
by New_User on May 20, 2011 4:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
cause it doesn't deserve them
no action figures
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by Urijah Bieber on May 25, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It sounds like most people think the winner of the tourny is going to be from one side of the the bracket
There is another russian guy on the other side of the bracket that just might be the darkhorse and win the whole thing.
by #1 piggy on May 20, 2011 7:54 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
yeah…. nah.
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by Hendo_One-Shot on May 20, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
this article..
hits the nail right on the head. the entire GP is worthless and should be cancelled.
wait…and i’m just spitballing here…maybe they should just go ahead and let this thing play out. i seem to remember hearing somewhere that this is MMA and anything can happen. i’m sure that you’re a terrific prognosticator, but maybe we should just let these guys duke it out as planned on the off chance that this tournament could be really cool.
i don't mean a dick
but i really don’t care about the GP – as long as i get to see these guys fight each other on a regular basis, i couldn’t care less whether it is in the format of a “tournament” or not.
by Clifford J on May 20, 2011 9:23 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Aside from a bit of poor wording on your part that may be what a lot of fans are saying now. This thing has lost it’s “must see factor” and that’s a issue for it going forward. If they just changed Werdum vs Overeem to a five round title fight and pretended the tournament never existed would people be that upset?
Yep
I would be, at least. The fighters signed to the tourney would be. Showtime certainly has some paperwork in place as well. And the oft-referenced “casual fan” is a casual fan because he doesn’t care too much one way or the other. If an action-figure like Overeem is fighting, he will be interested.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
Casual fans are the vast majority of MMA fans out there, we may be a very vocal group but we are a small fraction of their viewership, not only that but we will pretty much watch whatever they decide to put out. A casual fan is going to be drastically more interested in seeing a new face like Overeem fight for a UFC belt instead of seeing him fight someone they barely know anything about (which is the majority of who is left in the tournament).
Fedor is out, Arlovski is out, either Overeem or Werdum will be out next month and chances are Brett Rogers won’t make it passed Barnett (Brett Rogers has fought twice on CBS, he does have name value). The guys that casual fans know probably won’t be there to get their attention in the second round. Just imagine if Overeem loses to Werdum, would this tournament have any heat left at all?
Of course from a pure business standpoint how many more millions would Zuffa make off a Overeem world title fight on PPV as opposed to a fight on Showtime? Showtime has a contract to get their events but do they have a contract specifically to get this GP? Would Showtime relent if they could get a taste from Overeem getting a UFC title shot on PPV? GSP vs Nick Diaz is already all the proof we need to show that Zuffa can and will move guys around if they so chose.
Showtime is probably very savvy in contract matters. You can bet the legal documents will not allow their partner to just exchange the row of elite HW fighters that were booked and paid for by Showtime for some nonames or just other fighters. You can say I don’t know for sure and you are right. But it is very, very unlikely IMO. And even if, the fighter in the tourney still have contracts as well…of course they could be persuaded by money (Showtime as well but that would defeat your “the UFC wants the PPV money”-argument).
The Diaz situation is different, IMO because he is a single fighter who can probably chose to retire his belt and ask to be released. Plus: we don’t know if he won’t return to SF to defend the belt.
"A belt only covers two inches of your ****and the rest you need to back up on your own." Royce Gracie (allegedly...I just read it somewhere and thought it was cool for my sig!)
Does Showtime have a specific contract that says this Grand Prix must happen or do they just have a contract that says they are owed a certain number of shows with Strikeforce fighters? Showtime may be very contract savvy for all we know but that doesn’t mean there is any kind of contract in place that specifically mentions this grand prix. As far as Overeem fighting for a UFC belt, well that would be pretty much the same as Nick Diaz fighting for a UFC belt at this point. It’s not really that different (I didn’t say they would end the GP and take all the fighters involved to the UFC just that they may end it and offer Overeem a UFC title shot). The only difference between Diaz situation and Overeem’s is the Grand Prix, if the GP went away then it’s pretty much the same thing.
Not sure what you are getting at here? If Zuffa said to Showtime, “hey we want Overeem to do a UFC ppv what do you want in exchange for a Strikeforce show? How about if Overeem wins he will come back and defend that belt on Showtime too.” What would Showtime do? Are they glued to the idea of the Grand Prix must go on no matter what or are they mainly after getting ratings and new sign ups for their network? Is Showtime going to demand that this Grand Prix continue even if they are offered something else that may bring in more viewers to them? Does Showtime even care about the GP?And even if, the fighter in the tourney still have contracts as well…of course they could be persuaded by money (Showtime as well but that would defeat your "the UFC wants the PPV money"-argument).
Rec’d for “i don’t mean a dick”
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by ElliotMatheny on May 20, 2011 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't forget Sergei
He beat Overeem and Werdum before and looks better than ever
there is a reason why SF was a growing business
the HW tournament is one of them
some of can’t stand Rogan and goldy anymore and see the fights on mute …keeping a different brand isn’t such a bad thing its like a manufacture who has two different blends
the dogs bark but the caravan moves on
I think they should keep both brands (something I wrote about in one of those fanpost no one read :D ), they should just merge the fighter rosters and matchmaking staffs. Having a different touring brand with a different production statt making it’s own media/tv contracts gives Zuffa a second brand to market, it’s just on the sports side where they need to merge.
HAAAAAAAAATTTTTTEEEEERRRRRRRR
I still look forward to seeing every fight!!! This guy needs to write for sherdog.hahahaha
My friends call me charmin because I took a shit on the backseat of my car...next to a church, while little kids played.lol
Point out flaws or things you disagree with, please. I’d like to hear them.
Hardcore MMA fan since UFC 99
by ChiCubs23 on May 20, 2011 1:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
nah im jk
I just dont like when reporters are all pessimistic about things.lol
My friends call me charmin because I took a shit on the backseat of my car...next to a church, while little kids played.lol
Not a reporter or a writer, this was a fanpost. I enjoy discussions, that’s why the post is full of questions.
by who me on May 20, 2011 1:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I care about the tournament because i wanna know who is the best fighter out of these 8 men.
Things like athletic commissions, Brock Lesnar, Zuffa, etc are not very interesting. Are you guys fight fans or you’re only interested in drama that surrounds mma?
Being a fan doesn’t mean sticking your head in the sand and ignoring all those other issues. All those issues surrounding this are very important issues as to whether we will actually get to see the fights or not. All that not very interesting stuff (as you put it) decides whether the fight fan in you actually gets to see any fights or not, it may not be your topic of choice but it sure the hell is extremely important for fight fans getting to see fights or not.
What the hell are you doing on a mma blog comment section if you don’t want to discuss what is going on in the sport? Really this is just a discussion for education and entertainment, Zuffa doesn’t give a fat rats ass for what any of us actually think about this we are only here discussing the sport we love for the sake of learning more about it. It’s not hurting anyone and if you don’t wish to discuss it then why bother acting like a stuck up prick towards people who do? Just don’t discuss it.
I’d think the best thing to do would be to have Overeem finish the Strikeforce tournament. Barring injuries, that probably means Cain has one “lackluster” fight against Mir/Nelson/possibly Shaub if they choose one of them over Carwin, while the Strikeforce HWs complete that tourny. The reason being, people love titles and belts. Hard core fans were legitimately excited to put Dream Interim Heavyweight Champ on Overeem’s list of accomplishments. Add Strikeforce Grand Prix winner to that, and it’s easier to market him. Give him a belt for winning the GP, have him strap on his SF and Dream belts, whatever else he won with K1 plus the crown of leaves on his head, throw his accomplishments in text next to him, and people will eat that shit up. Everyone loves a Greek god physique covered in championship belts. Then a fight with whoever the UFC champ is will be much bigger than it would be if they removed Overeem from the tournament if he beats Werdum. This is one of the few cases were I think it’s best to just leave some fighters in SF for a little while. Cain gets one easier fight in the meantime, then we gear up for a huge unification fight.
But then you gotta worry about Overeem losing (which personally I don’t think he will) and injuries fucking up plans.
Hardcore MMA fan since UFC 99
by ChiCubs23 on May 20, 2011 2:00 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Before the tournament is over we should see at least two Cain fights (assuming he does come back in October as planned). The winner of Dos Santos vs Carwin is a lock for one of them, after that is when things get sketchy. Pretty much what it looks like is either Overeem comes to the UFC early or we are looking at Mir/Nelson/maybe Schaub getting a title shot. Once you combine the two companies heavyweight divisions all bets are off and things should get interesting again. It’s just a question to wonder about, does Zuffa go with what most likely would be Mir or do they just say screw the tournament final round and go ahead with the dream match up? Dana doesn’t like tournaments and does anyone at Zuffa think they can sell Mir vs Dos Santos/Carwin again/ or Velasquez?
Does anyone recall what he purpose of this HW Tournament was?
I could have sworn it was for a title shot. Which is why to this day I still think it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO stupid to have the champion in the same tournament. Even though I hate their “Superfights” at least Bellator knows NOT to put their champ in the tournament for the title fight.
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes." – Winston Churchill
Its simply a way to finally have the SF HWs fight each other, since they have an amazing ability to never do that. They wanna see who the best SF HW is.
Hardcore MMA fan since UFC 99
Being as Zuffa is doing the matchmaking now that’s not really a problem anymore (Zuffa has leverage to get fights booked that Strikeforce just never had).
I think nottheface had a great idea above, stating that the winner of the tournament gets a UFC world title shot would bring the must see excitement back to this thing. Knowing the UFC’s luck it would end up Josh Barnett winning it all though :D
From a fan’s perspective any outcome is ok as long as we have the top guys getting in the cage to face each other on a regular and timely basis. Zuffa wants to accomodate that in a way that maximizes their revenue. That’s why I can’t see a guy like OVereem fighting in SF for 3 more fights. The guy has the credentials , the look, and marketablility to make some big PPV numbers. I dont think Zuffa is all that keen on having the top guys fight on “free” TV to begin with as it diminshes the perceived value of their PPVs. In addition they will need someone on Superbowl wkndish for a super fight presumably with Velasquez. You generally dont see billionaires who aren’t interested in maximizing the return on their assets. Overeem is sitting in a bank savings account earning 2.5% APR but could be be making 200% return developing rich PPV oil fields in the Zuffa-Arabia. Isn’t that the only factor driving these decisions? I think so. That’s why I’m expecting to see Overeem in the UFC either B4 or shortly after his fight with Werdum.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on May 21, 2011 3:10 PM EDT reply actions
If they can get this tourny finished in Nov/Dec, then the winner would look good matched up with the winner of Cain v JDS/Carwin. Overeem, Werdum, Bigfoot, or Barnett would all be interesting story lines.
Cain is rumored to return for UFC 136 on October 8th. If they really pushed to finish this tournament and say only gave three months between fights for the next two rounds (more likely it would be 4 but lets go with three) then you are looking at round two in late September. The end of December would be about as quick as they could possibly finish this up (more likely we are looking at October/November second round and January/February finals). The second round of the GP is going to line up rather close to UFC 136 and the finals will line up close to when the UFC is looking for the next heavyweight title bout to happen after Velazques vs Carwin/Dos Santos.
It’s almost scary how well the dates are going to line up going forward here and Zuffa doesn’t have anyone that exciting waiting in the wings for a heavyweight title shot after Velasquez vs Carwin/Dos Santos in October.Depending on what happens at UFC 136 it wouldn’t be surprising if Zuffa went to the Strikeforce well to find their next Heavyweight title contender and they will need one before this tournament is over.
There’s also the fact that Josh Barnett will most likely be the other side of the finals and Dana doesn’t really like Josh Barnett. If Dana thinks Josh might win this tournament (and he has already publicly stated he thinks Josh will) then there is always the off chance he just pulls the plug before the finals based on him being a spiteful individual.
I don't understand why everyone is so eager to see Strikeforce die
The HW GP was a great concept when it was introduced and it remains a great concept today. Other than point #3, none of the issues raised in the post are new. People might care slightly less than they did, since the most visible fighter in the tournament got upset in his first round match, but I would expect that every fan (casual and otherwise) that bought into the tournament concept at the outset is still interested today.
In my opinion, given Cain’s inactivity, the winner of this tournament still has a very strong claim to #1 HW in the world. That is relevant regardless of Strikeforce’s ownership status.
As fans I think we should pray the HW GP is allowed to continue to its conclusion. Think of this as the farewell tour for interesting, relevant MMA that you don’t have to pay $60 to see.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
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