UFC Veteran Chael Sonnen Spotlights the Issue of Testosterone Therapy in MMA
by Leland Roling on May 19, 2011 3:00 PM EDT
in UFC Editorial
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Yesterday, the California State Athletic Commission voted 4-1 to uphold an indefinite suspension that was placed on former UFC middleweight contender Chael Sonnen on April 19th due to a claim that he may have committed perjury during a hearing in December regarding a positive drug test for elevated testosterone levels. The positive test followed the UFC 117 main event title showdown between Sonnen and champion Anderson Silva, a bout that Sonnen shockingly lost in the final two minutes of the fifth round after dominating Silva for most of the fight.
As if the elevated testosterone levels weren't enough, Sonnen was implicated in a money laundering scheme involving his own real estate business in January. Sonnen accepted a plea deal resulting in 2 years probation, fines, and the loss of his real estate license.
The California State Athletic Commission felt that the case had bearing in yesterday's proceedings, using it as a foundation for questioning Sonnen's trust. Sonnen pleaded ignorance during the hearing, but most of the testimony pointed toward a long list of contradictions and lies.
The most incriminating evidence was the lack of a paper trail combined with an inconsistent history of admission to the condition, hypogonadism, Sonnen has suffered from over the years. Sonnen pointed out during the hearing that without testosterone replacement therapy (TRT), he would have the testosterone levels of a "93-year-old man", yet did not disclose the condition to the commissions until well past the first time he took treatments. From ESPN's Josh Gross:
Sonnen fought in Nevada three times since 2008 and tested clean. For each fight, Sonnen indicated whether he was using prescription medication or over-the-counter supplements. Against Bryan Baker in 2008 -- Sonnen's first bout since the treatments started -- no mention of testosterone was included in pre-bout medical questionnaires. In 2009 against Dan Miller, Sonnen indicated he was taking an antibiotic. Later that year, before fighting Nate Marquardt, Sonnen listed an antibiotic and a drug for congestion.
"None of those instances did he mention anything regarding any type of testosterone or anything to that," Kizer told ESPN last year.
Obviously, the ignorance to report the treatments in previous bouts screams to those fans who were pushing the opinion that Sonnen was hiding it in order to receive the performance gain without being caught. If it is a legitimate condition that Sonnen is dealing with for the rest of his life, why didn't he inform commissions ahead of those bouts?
The broader issue is the use of testosterone replacement therapy in the sport of mixed martial arts. The NFL, NBA, MLB, and even the WWE have all banned the therapy. The NFL, NBA, MLB, and even the WWE have programs to curb its use. Why hasn't mixed martial arts, and would that effectively crush any hope of Sonnen returning to the sport? Would he be physically lesser of a fighter if TRT isn't an option anymore?
At 34 years old, Sonnen is fighting not only against a saga of lies and legal problems, but time. The suspension will only last until June 29th, when his license expires, but the CSAC ensured that it would be contacted if Sonnen tried to obtain licensing elsewhere.
Commissioner Van Lemon noted during the hearing that he had serious issues allowing TRT in mixed martial arts competition, and I imagine the body of paperwork and dialogue from this case will cause other commissions to be cautious about its acceptance as well. Perhaps this is the case that causes the UFC and athletic commissions to join the ranks of other professional sports in banning the treatment? If so, I have my doubts whether Sonnen can physically compete with the elite fighters in the division.
UPDATE: According to Josh Gross at ESPN, CSAC Director George Dodd stated that Sonnen can't reapply until May of 2012:
JoshGrossESPN Josh GrossJust confirmed w/ CSAC exec. officer George Dodd: Chael Sonnen's suspension remains until they lift it; he cannot reapply until 5/18/2012.
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So...it's legal, depending on whether or not it is formally presented to the athletic commission?
I love the sideshow that follows Chael Sonnen around. He gave us an excellent fight against the champ, it would be hoping for too much to expect the same during a rematch.
In truth, this is an excellent way for Chael to exit the sport of MMA. He was blustery, he lured us in with his words (and sort of bored us with his fighting style), and he got us talking. His exit is no different. He lured us in, bored us with his hearing, and now has all of us talking.
Well played, Chael. It’s been nice knowing you.
Chael's career died just like it lived
Overblown, lacking substance, and getting people talking.
by Gideon Jay on May 19, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 12 recs
Why would this be the case where commissions ban TRT?
You retired from kick boxing in 2006. If you had to do it all over again, would you have tried fighting in MMA?
Jean-Charles Skarbowsky: No.
The entire saga could be used as a claim that Sonnen is using TRT as a way to boost his testosterone levels. His last reading was roughly 4x over the limit, hence why he got busted.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 19, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to clarify, TRT is currently legal (with a medical certificate) as a means to raise your testosterone levels to the maximum normally allowed, right?
Yes. But it isn’t allowed in most professional sports. It is unclear whether those sports would allow it in the case of hypogonadism.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 19, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure it’s extremely immature of me, but .. is it really called “hypogonadism?” I giggled like a child.
And then God created Saturn ... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it. ... Always a ninja
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It is definitely allowed in the NFL (as is hGH), although I am unsure about the others you cited. Even WADA has provisions for it.
I personally have no issue with it, but imo as a condition of receiving a TUEC for TRT any athlete must agree to several conditions that are beyond what is generally required in their respective sports as the only way to ensure its not being abused as a true PED is to do blood tests every 7-10 days. If this is made a condition of its approval for therapeutic use, there is no issue so long as the tests consistently stay within the accepted range (which is fairly broad).
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
by The American Ronin on May 21, 2011 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
The man is a liar, a cheat, a criminal and xenophobe who had a largely mediocre career because he’s so one-dimensional and he consistently panders to the lowest common denominator. I just don’t get his apologists.
Good riddance.
by PlutoCps on May 19, 2011 3:10 PM EDT reply actions 10 recs
he also took 4 rounds off of the greatest fighter to ever live
but whatever i guess
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
nope it sure doesnt
but it sucks to me that a guy who gave anderson a run for his money, beat okami, and beat marquadt is on his way out of the sport
sure he fucked up, and sure hes an idiot but i like seeing the best fight and chael certainly is one of the top mws in the world
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
He cheated
for ALL of those fights.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on May 19, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
He tested clean though, that’s all that matters.
You retired from kick boxing in 2006. If you had to do it all over again, would you have tried fighting in MMA?
Jean-Charles Skarbowsky: No.
No it doesn't
If you cheat and don’t get caught it doesn’t somehow mean you didn’t cheat.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on May 19, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well then I’m under the impression that everyone is cheating
You retired from kick boxing in 2006. If you had to do it all over again, would you have tried fighting in MMA?
Jean-Charles Skarbowsky: No.
^makes no sense at all
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Sure it does. I think a lot of fighters are using banned substances but passing the tests.
You retired from kick boxing in 2006. If you had to do it all over again, would you have tried fighting in MMA?
Jean-Charles Skarbowsky: No.
I feel like that too.
But those guys cycle their steroids and go into the cage with their hormone levels “normal”.
Sonnen went in with his levels 4x the legal amount. My stance on PEDs in proffessional sports is if you’re gonna do them don’t get caught… so testing that high above the acceptable limits is fucking ridiculous.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on May 19, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
oh they def are....
and they are idiots for doing so. I mean if its illegal in the sport…. dont do it. And if you decide to anyway and get caught… well that was your decision and it was nice knowing you. Look… its obvious that PEDs are running wild in all pro sports. PEDs are illegal and if you cheat you need to pay the consequences. Thats all. And thats all that happened here….
I even believe that we need to make certain PEDs legal for better fighter safety…. but the rule book is the rule book. You cant cheat, lie about it, get caught, and not expect repercussions.
I for one was praying that he gets his suspension revoked so that I could watch him utterly destroy Michael Bisping. I would pay good money to see that…. and I’m not even a Sonnen fan.
Sonnen vs Bisping would have gone down as prob one of the most hyped fights in the history of the UFC…. you know SOnnen would have spit in Bispings face at the weigh ins…. but alas… a boy can dream cant he? lol
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They may be
but we know know what we can prove and Chael admitted to cheating since 2008.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on May 19, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Only if you believe his words
Which apparently the commission does not.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
That's the funny thing
It’s hard to believe anything he says, even his admission of cheating for 3 years. Mental.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on May 19, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I can picture he pleading guilty to laundering
Judge: I’m not buying it. This dude’s full of shit.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
by TheFilt on May 19, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Lmao. That's funny shit man.
And then God created Saturn ... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it. ... Always a ninja
SaberCats Examiner | SB Nation Bay Area | Niners Nation | Twitter
Yes it does.
You’re punished for getting caught. Getting caught is the real infraction.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
No, it does not
You still cheated, whether you were caught or not doesn’t matter when it comes to determining that…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
by The American Ronin on May 21, 2011 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
He’s 3 and 2 in his last 5. That’s his second UFC run record, he went 1 and 2 in his first run. If we add the WEC he’s 5 and 3 in his last 8 .Note that those were 5 decisions, even when he fought a drugged out of his mind Paulo Filho he didn’t manage to finish the fight. He’s good, but he’s not amazing. He had a recent string of very good performances while cheating.
Actually, I tend to agree to a point.
I can’t stand him or anything he stands for, but I am all about chances. If they want to give him another chance to come clean, show some remorse and move forward, I wouldn’t have a huge problem with him continuing to fight at some point.
However, This doesn’t make what he has done OK and he definitely needs to face the consequences for that.
Unfortunately, our thirst for a fighter who will knock Silva down a notch, or at least fight to his abilities, has appeared to be stuck on Sonnen and THAT is why I think some people try to defend him.
With a needle hangin out of his ass
I’m so tired of this “well he ALMOST beat Anderson” bullshit. Sonnen minus the TRT is a b-level fighter @ best w/ shitty sub defense. And last time i checked they dont give out belts for 2nd place.
by ddub83 on May 19, 2011 3:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Need artificial Test supplements?
Find another line of work.
BOOSH
by Farthammer on May 19, 2011 3:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Why? It’s allowed within the rules if you can get an excemption
You retired from kick boxing in 2006. If you had to do it all over again, would you have tried fighting in MMA?
Jean-Charles Skarbowsky: No.
Shouldn't be.
Banning steroids and allowing testosterone injections is the dumbest fucking thing ever. Consistency is important people.
"Unless you can’t think of something intelligent to say, don’t reply and make the world as dumb as you are appearing to be." - mabel4life
by lowellthehammer on May 19, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Which is fucking moronic
There’s a reason it’s not allowed in mainstream sports. “Hey, don’t do steroids…except this one steroid.”
BOOSH
IT'S NOT A STEROID IT'S A THERAPY
…where you inject testosterone into your body to increase your athletic ability. Completely different.
"Unless you can’t think of something intelligent to say, don’t reply and make the world as dumb as you are appearing to be." - mabel4life
by lowellthehammer on May 19, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I am relieved that the two of you were able to work out your differences.
And then God created Saturn ... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it. ... Always a ninja
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by James Brady on May 19, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There’s a reason it’s not allowed in mainstream sports.
Except it is. Leland was uncharacteristically mistaken about this…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
by The American Ronin on May 21, 2011 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions
The TRT exemption is only suppose to raise your T levels to the normal amount. Chael had more than the normal amount in his system. If T levels were monitored by doctors and random drug testing was instituted to insure no one could “double dip” I’d be ok with it. It’s a little shady as it stands now.
If you can't wow them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
"normal amount" is problematic tho
The normal T level range is pretty wide, if the therapy puts him at the upper limit of natural levels, theres still an advantage for him on 99% of the population
I just don’t know how big of a advantage it would be. I don’t think the amount difference would be enough to really put anyone over the top. And some people they TRT users would face could have naturally higher numbers than the normal range.
If you can't wow them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
Any professional fighter
Probably has naturally high T levels.
Why is else would they choose a career in a combat sport?
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Maybe maybe not
Alot of fighters are chronically overtrained, and all that stress and cortisol knocks test levels low…
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on May 19, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
That's after the over training
Like I said, naturally high.
The main reason for the alpha personality that 90% of fighters have is high test.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
90% may be a little high, but I agree that a high percentage do.
If you can't wow them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
The vast majority
Just because you aren’t a cocky douche doesn’t mean you’re not an alpha male.
Its almost impossible to be a fighter without that type of confidence and self-worth.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Where does your 90% come from? Are you just guessing?
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
Just throwing out a number
not really guessing
I’m just saying the vast majority of fighters are alpha male-type guys.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
I was questioning your certainty that so many fighters have naturally high testosterone. Also it’s hard to ascertain anybody’s personality solely from their behavior in the media.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
Not at all
I’m talking about the fact the are strong and confident enough to fist fight for a living.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
After a bit of thought
I think its a synergy of the two.
Testosterone has a huge affect on the body and the mind. Between that and the environment, the alpha male is created.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
In that regard
Perhaps its not nature vs nurture we should be discussing, but nature with nurture.
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
Upper level normal testosterone levels
are 20% or less of what they would be during a decent stacked cycle…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
by The American Ronin on May 21, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone find that double usage of Antibiotics a bit fishy?
What’s that all about. Why was he taking antibiotics before both the Miller and Marquardt fights. Seems a bit odd, no?
Might be for acne...
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
by The American Ronin on May 21, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Conflicted
I understand the need for banning TRT in MMA, but part of m feels like it should be allowed. A lot of people say that “If you need a supplement to do your job, then you need to find another job.”, but a lot of people need supplemental drugs to do their jobs. I know quite a few people who take ADHD medicine. Without it they likely wouldn’t have graduated college and some even high school. My point is that a lot of people need medication to be able to perform.
I also realize that this is combat sports. I could be wrong, but IIRC ADHD medicine is also banned from competition. I just think there’s a fine line.
If you can't wow them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
This is essentially the debate. I have another piece coming tomorrow regarding the debate, specifically some comments by Mitrione that run parallel with the idea that things like this should be allowed but monitored.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 19, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That's my issue too
In a perfect world I agree with Matt, allow it but keep it strictly monitored. In the real world, I think it opens way to many doors in order to exploit it so it should be banned.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on May 19, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously
People already have a bunch of ways to skirt the rules with outright-banned substances. If they were allowed under specific circumstances? Shit would get crazy.
BOOSH
What about legalizing the use of TRT if multiple physicians agree it is necessary to get testosterone to normal levels. Strictly monitor those with the exemption, for those who attempt to circumvent the policy make stiff penalties.
Bring in the WADA to monitor and test for all PEDs to ensure strict adherence to the rules and also a strong credibility that all athletes are playing on a level playing field.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so xxxxxxx stupid." – Phil Baroni
by keyboardwarrior on May 19, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I simply want them clean for the fights. If you need TRT or something else to recover from injury and train hard without falling apart, that’s fine, but you need to be all natural when you step into the cage.
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by Derek Suboticki on May 19, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t disagree with that at all but I think it is a very idealistic viewpoint. Even if TRT is banned, overall testing is a joke
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so xxxxxxx stupid." – Phil Baroni
by keyboardwarrior on May 19, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder if it’s possible to determine with complete certainty if someone has hypergonadism, or if they can just check testosterone levels and assume.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
It can be determined with a very high degree of certainty, although testing of levels is just the starting point for an accurate diagnosis. WADA provides a detailed description, but I only have it as a pdf (can’t find it linked anywhere).
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
by The American Ronin on May 21, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
ADHD medication also requires a TUEC
in MMA and the other major sports…
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
by The American Ronin on May 21, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Leland . . you're going to need a quick update
Sonnen can’t reapply until May 2012.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
Did it already.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 19, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
It is safe to say that a rematch with Anderson Silva will probably not happen. Silva will be 37 and counting.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on May 19, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
It all depends on the UFC at this point. Will they try to find a commission willing to license him?
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 19, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
would that not effectively
be the end of Sonnes career? If he fights anywhere, CSAC, and NSAC are going to find out about it, he’s under suspension till early next year, and this would be a direct spite to their ruling. What are the rules regarding this particular issue?
Depends. If some other commission is willing to license him, how is that Sonnen’s fault?
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 19, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
it wouldn't be
Sonnes fault, but in two of the biggest gaming commissions, it would effectively end his career, at least in those two markets, and possibly others, his choice to fight for a living then becomes limited, or at the very least his paycheques do. I would imagine that other commissions would also follow the rule of his suspension.
He can definitely still fight in Texas (or Japan). Assuming he does that I don’t know about the NSAC and CSAC’s ability to punish. They may hold it against him, but I doubt there’s any rule laid out that adds to a suspension if it’s circumvented that way.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
allow me....
let me get aboard my moral high horse. as someone that has never lied, cheated or fractured a law in my life, i feel as though my opinion is the only one that should matter here.
wait. nevermind. after reviewing things, i have come to the conclusion that i am in no position to judge this guy for the things he’s done. but by all means, someone please tell me how his lying is different than mine or yours.
Who Chael lied to
and the power those people have over his life basically seperate his lies from most other lies.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on May 19, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is true. I lie to athletic commissions all the time.
The thing is- I’m not a fighter and am in no way involved with sports. Also, I have no idea if they read my emails.
my point
my point is that we all lie. people are looking to crucify sonnen for lying, but we all do it. i fully undeerstand who he lied to. however, if you read the comments here at BE, people act like he’s a scumbag for lying and we are all saints when we do it.
That makes sense. I don't hate the guy, but i think the punishment is fair.
Also, you’re spot on with BE’s knack for quick crucifixions. :)
it's not the simple fact he lied
but what he’s done, He’s commited fruad at the federal level, and then lied repeatedly regading a whole bunch of things, lying may be one thing, but to insist you broke no law or rule, and then try to cover it up, thats the issue I think people have here.
by proflex on May 19, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
We do not all lie.
Maybe pathetic little faeces like yourself do it all the time as you say, but not all do. Some people cannot lie. Others are pathologic liars like Sonnen.
I may have have committed a few misdemeanors (the odd traffic violation, etc.) but I never defrauded people of their money. I may have told a few lies but nothing that ever mattered and never under oath. I don’t think I ever cheated and definitely never in a way that would put me in a better position to cause bodily harm to another person. I don’t believe I ever went on xenophobic rants.
I don’t need to be a saint to be better than Chael. Hell, I don’t even have to be good. All I need is not to be a complete scumbag and I’m qualified. Don’t sell yourself short man, I’m sure you’re not as bad as him either.
by PlutoCps on May 19, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
he didn't defraud anybody of their money
my understanding of the situation is this: he inflated the value of a piece of property when he reported it to a bank. he then took the extra money and gave it to the people that were getting the loan in the first place. those people still have to pay that money back as part of their loan. was it shady as hell trying to dupe the bank? sure
was it anything at all like stealing? no.
You just described fraud.
He took money that wasn’t his. I don’t care if he thought he was Robin Hood while he did it.
he didn't think he was robin hood.
he was putting some money in a homeowners pocket. money that they were going to have to pay back anyway. and what i said is that he didn’t defraud ANYBODY, not anyplace. don’t intentionally be obtuse simply because i have a different opinion of what a serious crime is, especially when that crime has nothing to do with his fighting career.
I consider fraud a serious crime and you don’t. As I don’t believe you’re about to commit fraud, I have zero problem with that. It’s just opinions and we both have a right to ours.
But facts are not opinions. Fraud is fraud. If it’s serious or important or morally wrong it’s another matter and it’s debateable.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by the anyone/anyplace comment..
just saying he defrauded a bank, not a person.
and i’m curious, does fraud = defraud?
because defraud sounds like undoing fraud. of course, if something is inflammable it is flammable. sorry, off on a tangent. damn OCD.
Oh, okay. I get why people don’t see defrauding a bank the same as taking money from a poor old widow (and I agree) but, IMO, it’s still pretty bad. Firstly it’s wrong in principle, second, the bank is owned by people, so all you’re doing is putting an intermediary in the equation and lastly, the bank’s losses end up being the losses of the clients.
To defraud is to take something from someone by means of fraud.
I don't agree.
A bank isn’t a person. A bank is a whole bunch pf people. Shareholders are people.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Sonnen wasn’t stealing the bank’s (or clients’) money. The bank created credit on false pretenses, which undercuts the integrity of the financial system. I’m not trying to defend Sonnen, but you misunderstand the crime he committed.
"He's like Elvis in Korea! They love him there." - Mike Goldberg on Denis Kang
Don't try and introduce reason into this discussion
To most here, Chael might as well have been running a identity theft ring who preyed exclusively on the elderly. We only deal in absolutes, and fraude=theft=armed robbery etc.
by Anton Chigurh on May 19, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
He told the bank the house needed $X money for repairs to be sold then had the company owned by his mother do the repairs supposedly
There were no repairs and he took a cut for himself and the other for the person purchasing the house. He did that to secure the sale and make his commision
by Papercut Elbow on May 20, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
i'm curious..
about those xenophobic rants. it’s no secret that the UFC is modeled after the WWE. in the WWE, whatever country or race is currently viewed as “the bad guy” in america immediately gets represented as “the bad guy” in wrestling and no one is up in arms when they do it. sonnen made some quasi-anti brazil statements to help sell a fight. BRAZIL! does anybody really think that he was trying to appeal to the anti-brazilian contingent? does one of those even exist? it’s part of the fight game. for cryin’ out loud, ali called frazier an uncle tom! we love ali.
It's all context.
When Ali said what he said, and with him being black as well, it meant something completely different than what it would have meant had I (or Chael Sonnen or Anderson Silva or whoever) said it today.
just to clarify
i don’t mean to imply that we love ali for calling frazier a uncle tom. trying to stay ahead of this thing before the BE gun jumpers call me a racist.
First of all
Joe Frazier is an Uncle Tom.
Second, you are racist.
Third, I’m just kidding. :)
"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."
by TheFilt on May 19, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, you're making a lot of sense
The righteous indignation displayed by many of the commenters here any time the name Chael Sonnen is uttered never ceases to amaze me. I can only assume BE commenters collectively are the most straight-laced, morally incorruptable bunch I have ever interacted with.
Or a large number of them are just blowhards.
by Anton Chigurh on May 19, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
had to reread my comment
i thought maybe i had called him tom frazier.
And Frazier was a great character on Cheers
but kind of meh when he got his own show.
Never approach a vast undertaking with a half-vast plan.
had to...
stop in and say sonnen is a douche bag anyways after i heard what he has said about certain fighters….Tired of seeing his name on bloody elbow…..could care less about this dude….Lets get more write ups about people who are aloud to fight and have a future in the sport at this point in time.
by Killuminati on May 19, 2011 4:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm really lost. Can anyone help me out?
Chael Sonnen last fought 8/07/10
He tested positive for a banned substance
Can Chael fight in the US after that date? (would be 1 -year suspension). If he cant, why not? How can someone be suspended indefinitely?
Because he lied under oath to CSAC
He isn’t getting suspended for steroid use at this point, he’s getting suspended for providing blatantly false testimony during the first hearing.
Not afraid to nitpick
Damn
Double Whammy
He should have just BS’ed and said he took a tainted supplement. Would be fighting sooner. I wonder if he could get a license in Texas. They seem to have laxer rules. They let Margachito continue, so $ talks there.
He should have just BS’ed and said he took a tainted supplement.
What that guy said.
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on May 19, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Where's the indefinite suspensions
when fighters go in front of the AC and say “I didn’t know it was banned” or “I didn’t even take anything”? Thats blatantly lying they failed the test. I’m not saying Sonnen should not be punished but why him? Because he used Kizers name in a lie?
" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama
I’m not saying Sonnen should not be punished but why him? Because he used Kizers name in a lie?
Well, yeah. He told an outright lie about a man with a lot of control over his career. Not a smart move. Also, a lie that’s easily verifiable. Hard to prove what someone did or didn’t know.
Conducting an experiment on knocking people out in particular ways would be unethical.
by Chris Hall on May 19, 2011 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think the punishment is harsh
Basically they are trying to end his career with that punishment. If you want to suspend him for one year then sure, but if you are going to make him miss 2 years of competition I think that’s too far.
I hope the UFC will put him in a fight in some place that will license him to get the money he can bring to the table.
The problem is
They were trying to suspend him for just a year just as you say. Except he had to go and fuck everything up by lying his ass off under oath. The cover up at this point is worse than that crime itself—-ask Nixon.
Not afraid to nitpick
by joker24 on May 19, 2011 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Except his cover-up worked.
He got the PED suspension reduced. That suspension is over. Chael served his time for the PED test. That’s done. There is now zero reason to talk about it.
This suspension is for perjury.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
The objective with TRT isn't to create elevate levels beyond normal
The objective of TRT is to increase levels to the upper limits of normal or to maximize endogenous testosterone production…this IS NOT what Barry Bonds did (that was nandrolone), this is male hormone.
The CSAC is uneducated regarding the matter and complete morons.
Wags
Except Sonnen tested 4x above the limit.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 19, 2011 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Without blood testing (or arguably a 24-hour urine analysis) neither we nor the CSAC know anything at all about his actual testosterone levels.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
by The American Ronin on May 21, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
due to a claim that he may have committed perjury
So the CSAC is finding him guilty of something he may have done? What a bunch of morons.
LOL
When I'm on the mic it goes down, CINTRON
-Joell Ortiz
by The Lethal Haze on May 19, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Ban It All
MMA (led by the UFC/Zuffa Inc.) should ban everything that is banned in the Olympics
and get it over with
and follow through
by banning anyone caught using anything that is banned.
CA, NV & NJ should set the pace for the other States & Canadian Provinces
by instituting and implenting the same Bans
Unlike Sonnen I do not consider MMA as “entertainment”
this is a real sport and everyone involved Must begin thinking, talking, living like it is.
No amount of “draw” due to BSing, trash-talking, building a fight
is worth knowing we are watching “enhanced” human cock-fights (as our friend in NY might say)
The weight-cutting problem (with 2 foes weighing a class or two above the one they are allegedly fighting in)
leaves a bad enough taste in many mouths
without adding doping to it.
Just Say No To Dope MMA
by P-wolf on May 19, 2011 6:18 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't think the Olympics should ban all those things.
I don’t understand why they do. I don’t get the justification for PED rules.
Why are PEDs banned at all?
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Is this some sort of open verse format?
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.
by The American Ronin on May 21, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
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