Is Steven Seagal Secretly a Martial Arts Genius?
by Jonathan Snowden on May 1, 2011 1:13 AM EDT
in UFC Editorial
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Greg Jackson had his moment in the sun, but it's time for the New Mexico based MMA trainer to slide over and allow Steven Seagal to take center stage. The movie star, best know for styling on henchmen with his Aikido inspired moves in hilariously bad action films like Hard to Kill and Under Siege, has rekindled his martial arts career with two amazing UFC cameo appearances.
Seagal, who ate his way out of even B-movie action roles has reinvented himself as a trainer to the stars. He made waves at UFC 117 by inexplicably appearing in the corner of middleweight champion Anderson Silva as the Brazilian star defended his belt against Chael Sonnen. But it was at UFC 126 when Seagal really caught the attention of MMA fans. Silva knocked out challenger Vitor Belfort with a front kick to the jaw he said he learned from Seagal.
"Steven Seagal helped me perfect that kick," Silva said post fight. "That was a kick we were working on before I stepped in. This was a kick that I trained a lot."
Amazingly it may have even been more than a PR stunt. Seagal claimed credit for working on the kick with not only Silva, but Silva's training partner Lyoto Machida. Known as "the Dragon, Machida used a jumping front kick to knock out the legendary Randy Couture, sending the former champion into retirement with a loss and without one of his teeth.
What can Seagal possibly do next? Will we see fellow Brazilian Junior dos Santos land a similar kick against Brock Lesnar at UFC 131 in Vancouver? Will fighter turn to other movie stars like Jet Li and Cynthia Rothrock for advice? Would the techniques outlined in American Ninja or Gymkata really work in the Octagon? Before Seagal I'd have laughed and issues a terse "no." In the wake of a second Seagal credited knockout, it's safe to say that nothing is certain in the twisted world of mixed martial arts.
More Bloody Elbow UFC 129 Results and analysis:
- Georges St. Pierre Holds Back UFC's Canadian Coming Out Party at UFC 129 - Jonathan Snowden
- Georges St. Pierre vs. Anderson Silva Loses Steam - Brent Brookhouse
- Great Judging Should Be Applauded Sometimes - Tim Burke
- UFC Hits Home Run With UFC 129 Live Experience - Matt Bishop
- Zuffa and the UFC Finally Hit It Big - Matthew Roth
- Hours After, GSP Still Can't See With His Left Eye - Anton Tabuena
- UFC 129 Post-Fight Press Conference Video
- Play by Play and Live Commentary - Brent Brookhouse
- Georges St. Pierre Slips Past Jake Shields
- Jose Aldo Holds Off Mark Hominick
- Lyoto Machida Clouts Randy Couture
- Vladimir Matyushenko Mops the Floor With Jason Brilz
- Ben Henderson Whips Up On Mark Bocek
- Rory MacDonald Ragdolls Nate Diaz
- Jake Ellenberger Brutalizes Sean Pierson
- Claude Patrick Edges Daniel Roberts
- Pablo Garza Submits Yves Jabouin
- John Makdessi KO's Kyle Watson With Spinning Back Fist
- Jason MacDonald Triangles Ryan Jensen
- Ivan Menjivar Clocks Charlie Valencia
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Hahaha
We joked about this well before it actually happened. It was perfect.
"I can be friends with anybody. Man. Woman. Cat. Dog. Fish..... Alien." -Rampage
No.
The jumping front kick is in Shotokan. Shotokan, even with all the bullshit about how it goes back 2,000 years and it really doesn’t, is still older than Steve Seagal.
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 1:18 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think any coach except Eddie Bravo pretends they invented the moves…
by Jonathan Snowden on May 1, 2011 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Seagal did immediately after Anderson's KO.
In any case, the point is that Yoshizo Machida at one point actually fought in karate tournaments and can probably still jump more than 6 inches off the ground right now. So if anyone taught Machida how to improve his jump front kick, I’m gonna go with the dude who has a lifetime in Shotokan, has photos of him competing in some form of contact martial arts, and isn’t severely bloated in both body and ego.
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Funny thing is
Yoshizo may actually still be MORE aggressive than Lyoto.
Segal actually said he learned it
from some old Japanese guy.
Machida’s kick here is straight out of Karate kid, Daniel’s jumping crane kick. Seagal seems to have some tricks up his sleeve.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on May 1, 2011 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Why is this such an issue again? Because he’s an actor? How is that relevant to his martial arts career? This guy is a legit Aikido guy, I mean, this is not a big deal really guys…
I'm acknowledging his legitimacy.
When I said he has a few tricks up his sleeve, I mean he obviously has some tips that can help, at least with front snap kicks.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on May 1, 2011 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions
my uncle is a black belt in akido he has been training since he was 20
He he is now like 60. He said he did a seminar with segal back in the day and said he was the fastest human being he has ever met.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on May 1, 2011 3:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I read that post of yours
can’t remember where it was. I believe you, though. MMA fans like to ridicule traditional martial artists, but I think that’s really a misguided notion. Segal is one of many guys that dedicated himself to learning a martial art, and that right there is enough to earn some respect from me. He is definitely a legitimate Aikido practitioner.
And Aikido isn’t as useless as some people want to make it out to be. The throws, joint locks, etc are very effective in self defense situations. Although Aikido is a grappling art, i’m sure Segal picked up some striking tricks from respected martial artists along the way.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on May 2, 2011 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions
actually
its impossible to not have them in the same sentence
Jonny Bench called.
by Sterling Archer on May 1, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
My grandpa learned Aikido
and he can put me in all sorts of wrist locks and shit. He also boxed so he’s no chump, but Aikido has some very practical applications. The throws, trips, and jointlocks work very well against your average Joe.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on May 2, 2011 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s messed up, which moves do you think Eddie pretended to make up?
by p123 on May 1, 2011 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Why isn’t Eddie Bravo the creator of the rubber guard system? I didn’t know there was a complete rubber guard system before. You know why? Because there wasn’t…
by p123 on May 1, 2011 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
phil migliarese and Bj Penn.
They just didn’t rename it with ridiculous names.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on May 1, 2011 3:27 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The original intention was okay though, Eddie Bravo was trying to develop a completely unique system and by adopting a vocabulary separate from the standard nomenclature of BJJ he could develop his own associated ideas and inspire students to rethink the fundamentals of each position studied.
Or something like that.
thats not what eddie said.
Most bjj moves don’t have names. Which admittedly is kind of a pain in The ass.
Eddie said he would just make shit up When he was writting his book.
But how am I gonna teach a child to " do the douche bag". that shit is ridiculous.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on May 1, 2011 4:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Which he readily admits is an old wrestling move. Your point being?
by p123 on May 1, 2011 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
That he doesn't like Eddie Bravo?
Bolts from the Blue // "I eat cereal out of a giant novelty wine glass because it makes me feel fancy." - Britney Wade
Bloody Elbow // "Everybody underestimates the kick in the groin." - Bas Rutten
by Richard Wade on May 1, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He doesn't.
He cites the originators, just gives them his own names when he uses them in his system.
I don't remember ever
training a “jumping front kick” BUT…
the basic front kick is a Shotokan staple and I have always thought it was under utilized in MMA. Take down artists shut down the use of the front kicks in mma until recently.
Agreed. And no boxing trainer ever invented a left hook. Point being? This is specialized stuff, in which minor tweaks are being made by Seagal. And he is quite effective…
he isn't tweaking
one single thing, is the issue. the moves are the moves, and then he comes in and opens his mouth saying he modified the move a bit. no
They’re probably the ones paying him for it so they get a bit more publicity in us-news. Of course they play along with the charade. This is a PR move, probably by Soares and a good one. That deserves credit. But to think the Belfort or Cotoure KO would’ve looked any differnt without Steven Seagal… I doubt that.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
They reached out to Seagal.
http://www.fightmania.com/mma-news/steven-segal-did-not-help-anderson-silva/
As to the people who actually believe this shit, Joinha already admitted that Seagal DOES NOT TEACH THEM MARTIAL ARTS AND THIS IS A PUBLICITY STUNT. Jorge “Joinha” Guimaraes is Anderson Silva’s manager and the key member of Black House as a business.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on May 1, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think so. Why would he pay for association with the most unknown champions in all of MMA? He’d be paying St. Pierre or someone like that. Plus: what for. Makes no sense. He’s consistently been starring in his Direct-to-DVD-fare for years without outside help and made millions doing that (not per movie of course, but cumulatively).
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
I certainly trained the jump front kick...
I wasn’t in Shotokan proper, but I was in Tang Soo Do, which is Shotokan stolen in 1945 by the Koreans and with a few flashy kicks wedged in. I think I’ve seen Shotokan kata with that technique in it.
Actually you are correct about the kata BUT
there are many many many movements in Shotokan kata that are not part of basic training or 1 step, 5 step or freestyle kumite. It’s definitely a fringe move so I wouldn’t expect to go to any Shotokan dojo and practice crane kicks.
You have
It’s a featured technique in Kanku Dai, and you can see it at 3:45 of that video. The idea is that you fake with the left leg and hit with the right, IIRC; my Shotokan days were a few years ago.
I did that exact one in TKD.
- (move the back foot, kick with the front) jump front kick.
"Unless you can’t think of something intelligent to say, don’t reply and make the world as dumb as you are appearing to be." - mabel4life
by lowellthehammer on May 1, 2011 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions
The 1 should be a 3.
"Unless you can’t think of something intelligent to say, don’t reply and make the world as dumb as you are appearing to be." - mabel4life
by lowellthehammer on May 1, 2011 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I almost feel like Lyoto couldn’t keep a straight face while he was saying that, maybe I was reading into it. Obviously, however, the trend cannot be ignored.
Somebody go and find the 3 Ninjas!
Seagal did not teach Lyoto that kick
Seagal has been that raised up off the ground in 20 years
You know Joe, Brandon Vera is considered to be a Heavyweight George St.Pierre because he just comes, comes, and comes again... -Mike Goldberg, UFC 57
Cheick Kongo looks like a cross between Evander Holyfield and pop singer Seal!
Melvin Guilard looks like a little Kevin Randelman!
-Mike "All black people look alike to me" Goldberg, UFC 62/64
Seagal
should get KO of the night
"...was like a couple a' whores fightin' over a loose dollar."- Don Frye.
Omg. I looked over at my friend and gave a Gymkata reference myself. I will learn the ways..
by troutki on May 1, 2011 1:27 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
This whole Seagal thing
is a misguided attempt by Black House to gain some mainstream attention and try to make more money
by RickeyRick on May 1, 2011 1:28 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Yeah but , , ,
its still pretty funny. And for another front kick KO . . . but slightly different?!?
That makes Steven Seagal an MMA legend.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on May 1, 2011 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Those 80's and 90's martial arts movies
Were HUGE in Brazil. I grew up thinking Jean Claude Van Damme was the biggest movie star in the world.
It’s cultural.
Why? Seagal is a legit Aikido guy… Just because he did some crappy movies, does that mean he has no knowledge? I mean, GSP readily admits that Joe Rogan helped him out with his spinning back kick, is that a publicity stunt as well?
by p123 on May 1, 2011 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Aikido is complete bullshit.
TKD is just mostly bullshit.
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I disagree. We just haven’t seen anyone incorporate it into MMA . Shotokan used to be bullshit, until Machida made it work. See how that works? There was recently an MMA fight that showcased a ton of TKD, I forget where the fight was, but I remember the article…
Okay, here's the thing.
Shotokan and TKD are based in striking. Strikes, in general, are proven to work when trained effectively. The problem is that almost no one trains TKD or Shotokan realistically.
Aikido, on the other hand, is a system built entirely around throws and joint locks with two points of contact at best. It’s a fucking wristlock-based system (generally).
In addition, 1. Aikido is never practiced with any resistance. Never ever. Ever, ever, ever. I’ve never seen it, you’ve never seen it, you can search “Aikido sparring” on youtube all you want, the closest you’ll find is dudes in boxing gloves that can’t box who make a gentleman’s agreement to occasionally stop and play grab-the-wrist without using any actually useful clinch techniques. 2. Practicing standing wristlocks with resistance is a great way to cause injury, because you have pretty much zero control over the opponent’s body. That means either your grip is strong enough and your technique hard enough that you break their wrist, or your grip isn’t strong enough and they use the entirety of their bodyweight to twist away from your two-handed grip.
If arguing theory isn’t your thing, give me an example of Aikido that looks anything like a real fight? You can at least find Shotokan and TKD where two dudes are actively trying hard to knock each other out, something that happens in real fights. I’ve yet to find Aikido where there’s genuine striking or submission contests without some level of compliance.
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Also
When there are message boards across the internet FULL of discussions around whether you’re ever allowed to attack or not and still be “true” Aikido, you are not practicing martial arts, you are engaging in LARPing.
You make some good points. But how is this relative to Seagal helping. Anyone with any sort of logic and half a brain, can be a good trainer or help guys like Anderson/Machida tweak some moves. I mean, this is Anderson/Machida doing this, not some guy off the street. You can give them damn near any move, from any movie, and make it effective you know?
Cro Cop based alot of his game off of movie kicks from what I’ve read, so what’s the big deal?
Perhaps.
It’s possible that Seagal could be a good trainer without having any fighting experience…the two are different skills. Still, I find it unlikely given that he’s pursued such a useless martial art for so long. I guess we don’t really know.
Seagal has been training police and armed forces in hand to hand combat for years though. So he definitely has some experience as a trainer. That doesn’t make me believe he could even demonstrate Lyoto’s kick though, let alone teach him something new about it. Even in his prime, Seagal has rarel been seen kicking above the waist.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
it’s entirely possible that when aikido was originally developed, it wasn’t intended to be a “competition” martial art, but rather a way to completely incapacitate your opponent in actual life and death combat. also, i did search the internet for videos of U.S. soldiers practicing shooting each other with M-16’s. i couldn’t find any videos. that must mean that shooting a man with a firearm during active combat is an ineffective way to conduct war.
it’s entirely possible that when aikido was originally developed, it wasn’t intended to be a "competition" martial art, but rather a way to completely incapacitate your opponent in actual life and death combat.
If your martial art can’t be successful in any sort of competition, you don’t have a martial art. Rules don’t keep boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, BJJ, wrestling or judo from being effective. See my explanation below for why “too deadly” is a bullshit excuse.
also, i did search the internet for videos of U.S. soldiers practicing shooting each other with M-16’s. i couldn’t find any videos. that must mean that shooting a man with a firearm during active combat is an ineffective way to conduct war.Actually, smartass, they do that. Just with laser sensors or paintballs instead of real bullets. So yes, genuine contact with genuine resistance. Also note the first sentence in that video: “For an army to fight effectively, it must train realistically.” The same applies to martial arts.
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
that's actually ironic
because there are plenty of scenarios when we do shoot each other. With real weapons. It’s called simunition. It’s a round, with a paint tip. So you see exactly where you’d be shot at had you done this in combat. Aikido does not hold weight
by disinferno06 on May 1, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Which begs the question...
If shooting each other in the face is not too deadly to train realistically, where exactly does AIKIDO get off saying it’s too dangerous to practice for real?
so practice with fake bullets is a suitable training exercise to simulate real bullets but training aikido without the intent of hurting your training partner is not suitable? fake bullet =/= real bullet, training aikido =/= using aikido to fight for your life. i like how you both took my example, changed the parameters to suit your argument, then told me i was wrong.
you shoot each other with real, combat approved bullets? no? i must have misunderstood you. let’s not compare paintball and rubber bullets to actually getting shot. thanks.
I love how most of the basis for your argument is you can’t find a youtube video of it.
The hate is strong is you!!!!!
Or any other non-hearsay evidence.
Of which video is the best kind. There’s lots of “My master says he beat up twelve dudes outside a bar once with Aikido!” stories. I want some hard evidence.
Today maybe
I studied Aikido back in the very early 80’s. I was at the time also fighting full contact tournaments. In the dojo (a large one in Florida) they taught; Judo, Aikido, weapons classes and Shorin Ryu karate.
I had learned Tang Soo Do in England and so was picking up new techniques and styles. After doing Shorin Ryu for 18 months they added the Aikido instructor.
It was NOT LARPing. I was at the time 6’1" and 220 pounds. I trained every day and this guy threw me around like a ragdoll. I am fast – even at my size and had to spar and box with the small quick guys because the heavyweights were way to slow.
This guy owned me. When I threw a punch if it would not have hit him he just stood and looked at me. After that – I tried really hard to take his head off with every punch or kick and this guy had me in a pretzel constantly. The movement and flow is VERY useful and the redirection has helped me many times to sweep people off their feet.
Dismissing the current “art” of Aikido may be true for the current state – in the early 80’s this was NOT the case. I only did a year at Aikido because I was in the military and reassigned. I guess my main point is don’t dismiss every practioner of an art as a fraud. In all arts there are those who see an occasion when something can be used.
no
shotokan just used to be viewed as not practical for MMA. Nobody is saying that aikido is practical for MMA. Aikido isn’t practical for anything. At all. And I’ve practiced it before, just like I practiced Systema. They are both bullshit, and are 100% reliant on partner compliance
by disinferno06 on May 1, 2011 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
wow
This really doesn’t seem to be your area of expertise.
"Many have the will to win. Few have to will to prepare to win."
" A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass. The rest is up to you." - Royce Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on May 1, 2011 3:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
it makes absolute sense in your head
then when you try it against someone not playing along, the shit doesn’t work.
by disinferno06 on May 1, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Aikido is certainly not bs
Its actually more lethal than whats allowed in MMA. Small joint manipulation, eye, groin and throat strikes galore. Its all about demobilizing your opponent as quickly as possible
Turning Bat Shit into BatMan for 27 yrs
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/04/ufc-middleweight-champion-silva-like-water.html
Jesus Christ.
Do not give me that “too deadly” bullshit.
1. Wrist locks are not small joint manipulation, they are legal in MMA. As long as you have at least 3 fingers, it’s legal.
2. Groin strikes were legal in value tudo, why didn’t we see Aikido mop up there?
3. Eye gouges, throat strikes, groin strikes, these all take zero training to apply. Anyone with a modicum of athletic talent can throw a field goal groin kick just as well as an Aikido “master,” don’t tell me it makes Aikido worthwhile.
3a. If Aikido students are “practicing” these deadly strikes, why don’t Aikido students get regularly injured? Oh, because they don’t practice with resistance or hard contact? Then they’re not really training to apply them against a resisting opponent, are they?
4. Eye gouges and the like are not a trump card to genuine skill. Tell me this: if you face a good grappler and your grappling training is based in standing compliant wristlocks, where are you most likely to have to try and apply your “teh deadly” eye gouges? From bottom position? Likely under mount? How strange, I was about to say the same. Now, tell me what’s likely to happen if you try and eye gouge someone that has you mounted. If you say anything other than, “They’re likely to use their superior and genuine grappling knowledge and leverage from their gained position to escape your gouge and gouge the fuck out of you back,” you’re wrong.
And again, if arguing theory isn’t your strong point, find me some evidence. No video evidence = bullshit when it comes to martial arts. It’s 2011, I can find you videos of the dog brothers hitting the fuck out of each other with hard wood sticks in no more protective gear than fencing masks and hockey gloves, so if you’re going to pull the “too deadly” card, back it up with some video of Aikido actually being deadly.
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I legitimately feel like some "akido master" beat the shit out of you when you were small.
Because you are way, way too pissed off.
And then God created Saturn ... and he liked it, so he put a ring on it.
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by James Brady on May 1, 2011 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
No...
No aikido master has ever beaten the shit out of anything, ever. The reason I’m so pissed off about it is because martial myths like the effectiveness of Aikido, which fly in the face of all logical and scientific thought and instead rely on faith (literally-belief in the absence of evidence or even presence of contradicting evidence), contribute to martial arts “masters” making money off of students they are actively teaching how not to fight. Where it becomes personal for me is where I spent 15 years of my life training in a martial art that had literally nothing to do with anything “martial.” I’ve seen the bullshit firsthand, and it needs to stop.
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I’ve praticed Aikido for quite a while, the traditional style from Iwama (original style of O’Sensei). They use plenty of techniques, besides the small joint manipulation and other wrist locks. Some throws and chokes are common, though they normally need the gi. The use of lethal blows is common, but the aim is not to kill, is to use it to loose or tag your opponent. The training focus primarily in how to create opening for them, the atemis
Bottom line is that in Aikido you don’t train for a contest in a ring, you train in different distances, with differents weapons and recreating a enviroment when you can be attacked by different people from different angles. The focus is different, and the aim too.
Just respect other styles and martial arts.
by Carlos Estrada-Ibars Martínez on May 1, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Bottom line is that in Aikido you don’t train for a contest in a ring, you train in different distances, with differents weapons and recreating a enviroment when you can be attacked by different people from different angles. The focus is different, and the aim too.
If your art can’t be effective one-on-one against an empty-handed opponent, how exactly does it work against 2 or 3, with knives or sticks? If it can’t adapt to rules banning groin strikes, how does it adapt to being sucker punched from behind?
Just respect other styles and martial arts.No. “Respect” goes only to a point. Aikido is bullshit. I have never, ever, ever seen anything resembling evidence of fight effectiveness from Aikido. At that point, your style is not “just another martial art” in the “it’s the practicioner, not the style” argument, it is actively causing harm by making students believe they know how to fight when they have no idea. I have see Tai Chi be more effective than AIkido. I have seen Wing Chun applied effectively against resistance, even though it was against a dude who sucked horribly. I have never seen anything useful in Aikido. Nothing.
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
They have a saying about respect in Brazil
Anyway, since you’re obviously a master of multiple martial arts forms, why don’t you tell the class which martial arts forms work the best in the real world. I.E. what do they teach Marines, Green Berets and Navy Seals?
Turning Bat Shit into BatMan for 27 yrs
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/04/ufc-middleweight-champion-silva-like-water.html
Marines, Green Berets and Seals
Use gun-fu. That’s the most effective martial art. The serious point is that the military is not the gold standard for hand-to-hand combat, because combat in the military is almost never hand-to-hand, weaponless, or one-on-one. Why would they care to waste time training a lot of muay thai or BJJ when marksmanship is much more important?
Anyway, since you’re obviously a master of multiple martial arts formsI find this similar to calling someone a keyboard warrior. Not having tried every martial art in the world does not disqualify me from using my brain to identify where there is a lack of evidence, or abundance of contradictory evidence regarding a martial art’s effectiveness. Again, arguing theory is all well and good, but the real point? There’s no evidence for Aikido being effective. Give me a martial art, any martial art. If you can find video evidence of it being effective in some resistant combat situation, generally there’s something useful about it. If not, there probably isn’t.
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Evidence?
See Anderson Silva v Vitor Belfort and Lyoto Machida v Randy Couture.
You act as if Lyoto and Anderson saying, out of there mouths, that Seagal helping them with those techniques, isn’t good enough for you. Hence you must fancy yourself be some sort of expert mind reader and martial artist. Which I don’t think you are.
Turning Bat Shit into BatMan for 27 yrs
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/04/ufc-middleweight-champion-silva-like-water.html
Oy.
First, there’s this: http://www.htrmma.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=680:thatmmaguy&catid=47:mma-minute
Then, there’s this: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=steven+seagal+fraud
Then, there’s the fact that there’s lots of discussion over whether Aikido even has strikes in it. Go ahead, google that too.
And finally, there’s the fact that Anderson and Lyoto trained in martial arts (TKD and Shotokan) that already have that technique.
So, given that you can’t give me any other evidence for Aikido’s effectiveness, plus Seagal being a massive blowhard who has never proven he can fight, plus Anderson and Lyoto having others places to have picked up that kick, plus rumors that Seagal’s training is a massive joke by Blackhouse…well, just call me a skeptic, I guess.
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Use gun-fu. That’s the most effective martial art. The serious point is that the military is not the gold standard for hand-to-hand combat, because combat in the military is almost never hand-to-hand, weaponless, or one-on-one. "
You have no idea what you are talking about.
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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/04/ufc-middleweight-champion-silva-like-water.html
Yeah thats right
Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida are liars. They no nothing of martial arts. They are all con artist. Seagal is there to hype his next movie…..
I’m done with this.
Turning Bat Shit into BatMan for 27 yrs
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/04/ufc-middleweight-champion-silva-like-water.html
There is a difference between “lying” and “joking.” Whatever dude. Come back when you have Aikido being useful on video.
There you go
with needing things on video. All of the basis for your arguments go to being able to find things on youtube.
There you go
With your typing. Always with the typing and the posting.
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Segal is a known liar though...
that’s why I think that while he’s legit at his particular craft (the evidence is abundant of his years training akido) I just severely doubt he could show Anderson or Lyoto ANYTHING they don’t already know.
by Dr.WavvyCrockett on May 1, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
what they teach us in the military
is not the best martial art for self-defense. 99% of it is weapons centered. As in, break contact-step back-draw a bead on opponent using your weapon. Or……break their hands off of you-step back-shoot
by disinferno06 on May 1, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
People that still dismiss other martial art as bs need to rethink that. Over and over again we have seen stuff that was consider nonsense or unworkable in MMA work in mma. TKD and Aikido are often bad because of the stupid training, a lot of the moves are legit there just trained poorly. Imagine if boxer just did kata for example. But not all TKD and Aikido schools teach that way. Esp TKO with the rise of Olympic style which emphasizes sparring and competition.
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Even TKD Dojangs that emphasize sport/competition sparring disallow hand strikes to the face/head, which is a huge blow to it's real world effectiveness
JMHO, but considering that most Olympic level TKD players assume a hands down posture, for the purpose of baiting an attack, I’d say TKD would be more popular as a spectator sport and more effective as a self defense technique, if they allowed punches to the face in competition, and trained with it as well.
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pettis and makdessi uses TKD kicks
And there were many k-1 fighters who has tkd background.
Also peitoza(not sure if spelling is correct) used many snap kicks in k-1. im not saying all snap kicks are from tkd but tkd has similar kicks.
I guess that makes tkd bullshit
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by DK_Monster on May 1, 2011 4:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It just seems weird
He was with Anderson… Front Kick to the Face
He was with Machida… Jumping Scissor Kick to the Face
He was with Dos Santos… Pettis Showtime Kick??
Seagal has deadly arm strikes too
but I don’t think a boxer like JDS will be learning much from Seagal since his opponent will be going on a bull rush TD frenzy, he needs to learn how to liver punch Brock like how lil mac liver punches bald bull
Steven Seagal is legitimately one of the best in the world at what he does
Did he teach Lyoto the kick? No, he didn’t. Could he have helped these guys in a myriad of ways? You bet.
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I doubt even Anderson or Lyoto could answer that one to anybody satisfaction.
What does he do? He’s Steven Segal. That’s what he does.
What that find a buffet line?
Or teach someone the art that requires your enemy to come at you, rendering your shit useless if they dont…..
You know Joe, Brandon Vera is considered to be a Heavyweight George St.Pierre because he just comes, comes, and comes again... -Mike Goldberg, UFC 57
Cheick Kongo looks like a cross between Evander Holyfield and pop singer Seal!
Melvin Guilard looks like a little Kevin Randelman!
-Mike "All black people look alike to me" Goldberg, UFC 62/64
I’m wondering if you understand what sport we’re watching … mixed martial arts.
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"Martial"
Being the key word there, not “mixed.” You’re confusing “martial” with “LARPing.”
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Mmhm. Ignorance.
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Well, for self defense,
that’s a very sound concept. If they come at you, you have offensive options. If they don’t, then you don’t need to defend yourself in the first place.
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by ElliotMatheny on May 1, 2011 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jones was trying to land the same kick on Shogun if I recall properly
It seems to work very well against fighters who raise their hands too often
Glad to see the Dragon Fight
and Seagal told Ariel after the Silva fight that he was teaching it to Silva and Machida I was expecting it to come out this fight.
THE DRAGON IS BACK BITCHES
Steven Seagal is only a secret to those
Who haven’t seen the awesomeness that is Under Siege 2!
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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2011/04/ufc-middleweight-champion-silva-like-water.html
I’m pretty sure this whole thing is some weird Black House in-joke. The big question is whether Seagal himself is in on it.
by JRN on May 1, 2011 2:24 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Do the Nog/Silva/Machida guys lead you to think they are comical like that? Those guys are some of the most highly respectful guys in the business.
Yeah
They are also some goof balls.
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link or source
or it didnt happen
Jonny Bench called.
by Sterling Archer on May 2, 2011 7:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Chuck Norris has been strangely quiet through all of this
I expect Overeem to use something he learned from Chuck.
Aikido
Being as Seagal is a 7th dan in Aikido I would think he’s picked up a thing or two about martial arts. Aikido may train without actual fighting, but the Focus is on energy redirection, a very useful strategy for the cage.
All Anderson said on Helwani’s show was that yes, he’s been doing the front kick for a long time, but Seagal helped to perfect it. We haven’t seen Machida throw the Mr. Miagi before. Perhaps a martial arts master will see something you armchair martial artists won’t see. Say what you want about Seagal, 7th Dan takes seriously long to accomplish. “The flow” of a kick and channeling it’s energy properly is exactly what an Aikido master is trained to perfect.
Maybe he is a secret master
But I would be more inclined to think the Blackhouse guys just enjoy having him as a member of their entourage and thus give him more credit for his coaching than he probably deserves. And Jonathan, I loved Hard to KIll and Under Seige as kid so I’ll kindly thank you not to shat upon my childhood memories.
I love them too. But they are so unbelievably bad!
by Jonathan Snowden on May 1, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Under Siege is actually one of the best action movies from the late-80’s, early-90’s, in my opinion. Extremely well plotted and shot.
"If it's undisputed, what's all the fighting about?"
by Ephemeral Artery on May 1, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
MIXED martial arts
every one is trying to take credit for a way of doing things, Some people call that kick a switch kick, front kick from TKD some people saying Karate, whatever it is… Katrate guys incorporate Muay Thai, Muay Thai guys incorporate Boxing etc.
A muay thai coach told me about Silvas KO of Belfort when I asked him what he thought about the kick. “straight Muay Thai, perfect” obviously akido had front kicks, Muay Thai has front kicks, so does Karate, people share there ways of doing things, philosophies of timing… It’s MIXED martial arts, enjoy the Sport!!!
The Seagal Kick
Is unstoppable and wil revolutionize mixed martial arts.
█♣█
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Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
The Seagull Kick.
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by Kwisatz Haderach on May 2, 2011 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
You guys need to watch the Helwani interview from last night
He says of course he didn’t invent the kick, he worked with the fighters to refine the technique is all.
It would be pretty naive to think that a fighter couldn’t learn something from a master of another discipline. Only an extremely arrogant fighter would believe that they had nothing to learn from such a espected master of another discipline.
When fighters are at an elite level, it can be the most minor adjustments that trigger the greatest amount of improvement to technique and often the inspiration for these needs to come from outside their own discipline, sport, profession or walk of life.
10 years ago, to have a soccer or AFL kicking coach working with professional Rugby League payers was an absurd concept. I remember when some professional clubs employed the services of elite practitioners from other codes (soccer, AFL) the amount skepticism it was received with.
The traditional view was that due to the difference in the shape, position and flight of the ball and the vastly different nature of the sports such an experiment would be a fruitless exercise and hopeless failure.
10 years later, after countless success stories of professional rugby league players improving their kicking skills and performance significantly due to minor adjustments implemented under the guidance of specialist soccer and AFL coaches, the majority of rugby league kickers are coached by soccer of AFL kicking coaches…not rugby league based kicking coaches.
I for one love this Seagal and Blackhouse love connection
Yes, obviously he didn’t invent the kick, but both Lyoto and Anderson have now pulled of a variation of this strike, with KO’s as effect. And guess what, they both attribute Seagal with helping them perfect the kick, just showing them small variations in detail. It doesn’t seem like they are joking to me. I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be upset by this. It’s one of my absolute favorite things in MMA right now, I’ll laugh everytime I see Seagal in the shot, or mentioned in interviews. It’s fucking awesome, I tell ya.
And say what you will about Aikido, but Seagal is a very high level master of that system, and has been into martial arts all his life, getting respect from lots of different places. If Lyoto fucking Machida and Anderson Silva are training with him and saying they are learning good stuff, guess what, I’m going to believe them. Just because the man is a B action movie star doesn’t mean he can’t have something to contribute.
by Horselover Fat on May 1, 2011 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
It's either Seagal or it's the fact the two stars of the UFC's 1997 HW title bout from UFC 15
are slowed and chinny, and have been historically inconsistent anyway.
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Don't eat B.L.T. sammaches
So, if you are a martial arts master, and a bunch of shitty directors ask you to fake kicking guy’s through windows, and they’ll pay you millions of dollars, you guys wouldn’t do it?
You loathe martial artists who teach, well, martial arts, and act in B level action movies?
So when Randy Couture is doing that in 10 years, will you guys be making fun of him too?
Randy Couture and Steven Seagal have totally had comparable careers and are totally similar as martial artists.
Also, Steven Seagal totally knows how to fight.
Crime.
The crime of retinal damage.
And of delicious food going uneaten.
Looks like a Vegas era Elvis impersonator
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by Shoguns Hairy Forearms. on May 1, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
its not even funny
Fighters credited him for that kicks. Thats the bottom line. why would they say anything about seagal if he didnt do shit?
Do i think he is a genius coach? No. Do i think that he helped silva and machida with those kicks? Yes because they fucking said so.
Nothing but RESPECT for Matt "The Terror" Serra
http://gotmma.org/ - Korean MMA blog
by DK_Monster on May 1, 2011 4:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
do you ever say anything when gsp says that roach helped him with his jab?
If you dont, why you cant just believe that seagal helped silva and machida with that kick?
Its not even that they are saying that seagal taught them that kick. seagal just helped with one fucking kick, is it that hard to believe?
Nothing but RESPECT for Matt "The Terror" Serra
http://gotmma.org/ - Korean MMA blog
by DK_Monster on May 1, 2011 5:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How are people still not getting this?
http://www.fightmania.com/mma-news/steven-segal-did-not-help-anderson-silva/
It is an ADMITTED publicity stunt. Openly admitted that their manager approached Segal to do a fucking publicity stunt and not train them. Joinha did it for publicity.
So yes, it is hard to believe. Just like it’s hard to believe that the Bigfoot corpse that was admitted to be a hoax is a real dead Bigfoot. It’s not real and they’ve fucking admitted it publicly and it’s still working anyways because MMA fans are idiots who’d rather believe in a fantasy than pay attention to the truth.
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by pdl on May 1, 2011 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Somehow...
Otherwise rational people sometimes believe exceptionally ridiculous things about martial arts, and I’m not entirely sure why. Maybe it’s because fewer people have direct experience with fighting…if I told you that you could learn to drive a car by sitting in the driver’s seat with the engine turned off, turning the steering wheel this way and that and memorizing all the controls, you’d laugh at me. Hell, if I told you that actually turning on the car and driving around the block 4 times prepared you to drive in rush hour traffic or on the highway at 65 mph, you’d think I was crazy.
Yet people somehow believe that compliant standing wristlocks, or kata, or point sparring, or one-step techniques, or even all those together, somehow can prepare you to actually defend yourself against a physical attack. You learn to fight by fighting, or approximating it as closely as possible without serious injury. Believing Aikido works and Steven Seagal really does have martial secrets lets people believe that their painless (except for the wallet) training at the local McDojo somehow really gives them the ability to stop someone from hurting them when attacked.
by gzl5000 on May 1, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The funny part is...
MMA is basically supposed to be the end-all, the place where martial myths die. Yet two amazing athletes who know more about fighting than Seagal has forgotten about eating and being a douchebag take the tiny bit of quality out of the bullshit that comprises most Shotokan and TKD, apply it in-cage, name-drop Seagal as a joke/publicity stunt and the true believers are just so delighted that they take it as validation.
160 comments and...
the Krav Maga expert still hasn’t weighed in yet?
by medium seen on May 2, 2011 3:28 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
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