Scorecasting: Applying Omission Bias to MMA Officiating
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 8, 2011 2:00 PM EDT
in MMA Analysis
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At UFC 103, Vitor Belfort made a triumphant return to the UFC Octagon, dispatching former middleweight champion Rich Franklin in the very first round. Belfort knocked Franklin silly, landing a glancing punch to drop him and then finishing him with three hard, blatantly illegal shots to the back of the head.
Joining my media colleagues at the post fight press conference, I awaited what I was sure would be a storm of controversy. Franklin had lost by foul play - what would Dana White say? Would he criticize the officiating? Would he announce a rematch so we could see a bout contested under the unified rules? What would be Belfort's excuse for his illegal strikes?
Instead, unbelievably, there was silence. Worse than silence - Belfort was actually awarded Knockout of the Night and given a significant cash bonus. Not a single question was asked to anyone on stage about the illegal blows that had just finished a high profile main event.
Why was the media silent? Why didn't referee Yves Lavigne penalize the illegal blows? The answer can be found in the great new book Scorecasting by Tobias Moskowitz and L. Jon Wertheim.
More on omission bias (and a look at the fight's finish) after the break
Watching the end of the fight, it's hard to miss Belfort's final three shots to the head. They are in plain view of referee Yves Lavigne and the world. There's no question they are illegal. So why no action from the official?
According to Wertheim and Moskowitz the issue is omission bias. It turns out that while officials are staggeringly good at their jobs in most sports, their accuracy and the quality of their calls actually goes down the more that's on the line. There is a deep-seated desire to allow the athletes to decide the result of a contest. Consciously or unconsciously, Lavigne made the split second decision that the crowd, the promotion, and even the fighters, wanted to see the bout end decisively. That's omission bias - most officials would rather make no call at all than risk making the wrong one. No one wants the attention post fight to be on the officiating -least of all the referee:
Especially during crucial intervals, officials often take pains not to insinuate themselves into the game. In the NBA there's an unwritten directive: "When the game steps up, you step down." "As much as possible, you gotta let the players determine who wins and loses," says Ted Bernhardt, another long time NBA ref. "It's one of the first things you learn on the job. The fans didn't come to see you. They came to see the athletes."
So, did Lavigne make the right call? The answer depends on your point of view. In Scorecasting, the writers take a look at Shino Tsurubuchi, a lineswoman at the 2009 U.S. Open. Tsurubuchi called a controversial foot fault against Serna Williams in the tournament semi-finals, costing her the match and resulting in a famous, threatening tirade. Although replays shows Tsurubuchi was technically correct, she was widely criticized. People want to watch players play. So, while Lavigne may have made the wrong call according to the rulebook, he made the call the promoter and the fans wanted to see. To NFL official Mike Carey, those kind of calls will extend your career, even if they don't help you sleep at night:
"Making the hard call or the unpopular call, that's where guts are tested, that's the mark of the true official," he says. "You might have a longer career as an official if you back off. But you won't have a more accurate career."
Scorecasting comes highly recommended and is available wherever books are sold. Jonathan Snowden is the author of Total MMA and The MMA Encyclopedia. He writes daily at Bloody Elbow.
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did you look at the gif? it looks like the shots are landing under the ear and not illegal. i don’t remember thinking there was anything too wrong with this fight.
maybe just a slow news day?
Can you be serious? He hits him three times right in the back of the head.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 8, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see it either
Maybe I need new glasses. But at least the first two (of the last three strikes) look legit.
The first and last are both clearly back of the head. the one in the middle looks fine
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 8, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
The first looks like a hammer fist to Rich’s right ear to me.
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by VenusBlue on Apr 8, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
+3 on the hammerfist
And the left uppercut hook is what knocked him out, he was already out what are you gonna do take a point away?
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by doonerthesooner on Apr 8, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
It looked that way to me too...
However, I did not, and have not, seen a TV or HD version of this bout, and the GIF quality is VERY pixellated, so I have to defer to others on this one.
IMHO, when a guy gets dropped, and unsuccesfully goes for a single leg, he’s damn close not intelligently defending himself…
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nonsense
by that logic, all guys who don’t get dropped successfully complete single leg takedowns
I don't see how it's nonsense...perhaps I was unclear.
If you get dropped, and latch onto a single leg, yet continue to take shots that you cannot see because your head is down, I think you are right on the border of not intelligently defending yourself. If you can get your head out of danger, that’s different.
On the flip side, if you initiate the single on your own and fail, the ref knows your not on queer street, so he’ll let you eat plenty of punches in that instance.
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I just watched the DVD
Nope the first two “illegal” shots where not in the “Mohawk area” the last of the three which Snowden said he agrees with is ironically the only shot the did land in that area and could be called illegal.
In this instance though after Belfort turned Franklin’s head with a clean shot to the chin while he was on all fours and hit him 2 with two legal shots the illegal one in the heat of the moment at the very end of the fury didn’t impact the fight that much. Franklin was done either way.
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by Sexytime on Apr 8, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
Yep.
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by Derek Suboticki on Apr 8, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
The so-called mohawk area is Big John’s baby, not any sort of official change or interpretation.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Apr 8, 2011 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
That's why I miss Pride rules so much.
He could of just stomped the controversy right out of his head.
by nitecastle on Apr 8, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I also think the Unified Rules took the thought of kicking a downed opponent
out of a lot of fighters head. If Vitor would have popped up from the sprawl, and stated soccer kicking the shit out of Rich Franklin’s ribs, the fight more than likely would have been stopped. Jon Jones seems to me to be one of the only fighter using this strategy now.
Agreed. The 2nd shot is right on the border but the first and third are for sure back of the head blows.
by troutki on Apr 8, 2011 3:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This raises an interesting question...
I agree that the second punch was fine. But that punch quite literally turns Franklin’s head to his right. In a series of punches when advantage is on his side, Belfort would have been foolish to stop and give up momentum.
And just like the 3-point knee/kick rule, I can see this rule being used by fighters in disadvantageous positions to buy time or even a standing restart with a break.
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have
you never countered the ‘reality ommission bias’ Jonathan? Its called History.
that there missed call didn’t even happen, what are you talking about? What strikes, where?
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
according to the “mohawk” breakdown that big john usually reference those shots are fine.
and realistically stopping the fight at that point to deduct a point and starting them again wouldnt be doing any favours for rich. he was on his knees, hands out praying to mecca.
The “mohawk vs. headphones” thing is a huge problem in and of itself. When different refs have different ideas of what is illegal…that’s a problem.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 8, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
of course. but thats not something that can realyl be addressed given the nature of the sport.
we can stop the fight to review close-ups/ slow motion , etc.. whiel both fighters cool down and franklins brain resets for another bash or everyone can take their bumps and live with the pitfalls of their chosen career.
It’s absolutely something that can be addressed. You put in the rules “any blow behind the ears” or language explaining that any shot in the “mohawk” area is illegal. and tell all refs that this is the definition of “behind the head”
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 8, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
This whole “mohawk area” concept is something that was proposed as an amendment to the Unified Rule that was to clarify the single sentence rule designating “Strikes to the spine or back of the head” as a foul.
Of course, it should be noted that the proposed changes to the Unified Rules (made in 2008 by Big John, Nick Lembo and others and proposed to the ABC) is where this whole concept of the “mohawk area” came from.
As their proposed amendment put it (emphasis theirs):
9. Deliberate strikes to the spine or the back of the head.Of course, 12-6 elbows would have been legalized too under the proposed amendment…
No direct striking attacks are allowed to the spine or the back of the head crown of the head, centerline of the skull, into the spine, down to the tailbone. A direct strike is an aimed and executed attack to the area. The back of the head is considered from the crown of the head down the centerline of the skull into the spine, with a 1 inch variance to each side, similar to a Mohawk haircut. Strikes that are thrown to areas behind the ears but not within the Mohawk limitation are legal strikes.
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by The American Ronin on Apr 8, 2011 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The last shot is definitely illegal
…the first 2 are questionable with the second leaning more towards OK.
using big john's mohawk idea they look clean to me
plus i dont think one or two shots to the back of the head when the fights clearly already over are worth a dq
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gray area......
He wasn’t out until the shots to the back of the head. Until rich is out, he is always in the fight. Rich has the kind of heart gonzaga and lesnar can only dream about.
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by the-gentle-way on Apr 8, 2011 2:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
am I seeing the gif wrong?
once Franklin lands on all fours:
1) the 1st blow looks to me like a 100% legal hammer fist to the right side of Franklin’s face
2) the 2nd blow seems to catch Franklin’s left ear as his head bounces off the mat.
3) the 3rd blow is definitely illegal
I hadn’t thought about this fight since I 1st saw it & I remember thinking to myself, “Could the ref still deduct him a point for that one shot to the back of the head?”
Sorry Jonathan, but I think this is a case of “I Really Hope This .Gif Supports My Argument” Bias
by ChiCity85 on Apr 8, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 19 recs
Gotta agree with your analysis of the shots. And though the third is clearly illegal, I’d say it is not intentionally illegal, he was trying to put Rich out. When he hits the first one Rich turns his head, so he punches from the other side. When the second one hits Rich turns again, but this time Vitor cannot notice quickly enough.
by mmablitzkrieg on Apr 8, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
only ref mistake there IMO
is that Yves took too long to realize he was already KO’d as he hit the floor, before those 3 blows…
It seems similar to me to the shot KJ Noons hit Jorge Gurgel with just at the bell in SF
The third shot is technically illegal, but does not appear intentionally illegal. I think Yves makes the right no-call there.
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by Dave Strummer on Apr 8, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
First two look clean to me
last one is illegal but he’s already out…much ado about nothing
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You guys who think the punches are legal… Franklin’s manager was quoted in his local paper about the blows: http://www.springfieldnewssun.com/springfield-oh-sports/mixed-martial-arts/should-illegal-blows-during-mma-fight-go-ignored—343063.html
i've always
wanted to roll on laughing floor… please tell me what its like?
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sorry
sorry for the typo, thanks for adding to the conversation
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by Cory Braiterman on Apr 8, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see how this is relevant. Franklin was unconscious from the submarining left directly on his chin while on his knees, after which he faceplanted, and the fight was over at that point.
Also, only two of the shots after the fact were illegal. The first punch was a hammerfist to the side of the face.
Yves made the best call from what I can tell. Franklin was knocked out with legal strikes. What could be the alternative call?
by zY on Apr 8, 2011 2:10 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Um.
First ground strike is legal (Rich’s head is turned). Second is blatantly legal. Third is illegal. But by the third strike, Rich was cooked. No controversy here. At all.
For the record, talking about 'omission bias' is perfectly fine...
… it’s just that it would be nice to start the discussion with a credible example. Which this is not.
First ground strike is legal (Rich’s head is turned). Second is blatantly legal. Third is illegal. But by the third strike, Rich was cooked. No controversy here. At all.
Except that by rule, if the ref determines it was an intentional foul, Franklin wins by DQ, and if he determines it was not intentional, it results in an NC.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
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by The American Ronin on Apr 8, 2011 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Only the last shot
Hit him in the back of the head, and that was due to his head bouncing around from the punches. I was there live and saw it and have watched it over and over. Come on now.
i dont really feel like this is a problem in mma
i kinda feel like this is just a plug and you took a pretty borderline case to try and apply it
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by milk72 on Apr 8, 2011 2:12 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
A plug? A plug for what? A book that we aren’t getting paid to talk about by a publisher that has nothing to do with anyone on this site?
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 8, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe its not a plug
but it looks like a plug, especially since i personally dont believe this is an issue
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Of course it’s an issue. It’s an issue in all sports. And in life.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 8, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
its
a concept with interesting implications, thanks for passing it on.
'if you don't have humility as a fighter, fighting will bring humility to you...'
Cro-Cop vs Schaub
is a fight that should be a target for illegal punches. Brendan hit him over and over with those shots to the back of the head.
Herb Dean took a point, and showed he may not be prone to omission bias.
However, that was far from a title match, so you decide.
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Illegal strikes
Isn’t really what this article is about. Schaub was warned and punished for his transgressions.
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by Worldisart on Apr 8, 2011 2:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What is the point?
Even after multiple people viewing it multiple times, there’s disagreement of at least the first two shots (of the last three). Rich clearly wasn’t going to be able to continue. Do you award the fight to the loser, a la Jones vs. Hammill?
It was a good non-call. There might be other situations where your concern might apply, but this wasn’t one of them.
I'll agree Franklin caught at least one illegal shot
but I really think this is in the realm of Guillard vs. Dunham or even Jardine vs. Houston Alexander, where there was an illegal shot after the damage was already done (I’m going by memory on the Alexander/Jardine one).
I can’t say there’s any official support behind my opinion, but I don’t think any of these are in the same realm of bad as:
Roger Huerta vs John Halverson
(and I’m just using this quote block to say it as loud as possible)
I mean, that was just a straight up illegal knee knockout that didn’t get reversed for reasons of crowd momentum / excitement.
by LBo on Apr 8, 2011 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Lashley v Griggs
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Better question in this case
Should illegal shots AFTER a KO be penalized? Rich, IMO was out before the third shot…which is the only clearly illegal shot. However, it is CLEARLY illegal and bad enough you could get disqualified for. Since the fight was not stopped at that point, Belfort should be disqualified by the rules. (Because clearly Rich wouldn’t have been able to continue.)
Look at Jones vs. Hammil. While Hammill wasn’t out, he was being destroyed beyond recognition, THEN Jones landed the illegal blows. The fact that Hammill was going to lose was considered irrelevant and Jones got the loss. IMO, the fact that Franklin was going to lose should be irrelevant, the Belfort blow was still illegal.
That’s my technical analysis. My fan analysis is that I’m glad it was handled the way it was.
Big difference between those two fights though
The illegal blow Belfort landed was after Franklin was out. If a fight could be stopped instantly, it would have been stopped after the second punch. Hammil was losing the fight badly but nothing before the blow was landed was enough to end the fight. He would probably lost(the fight most likely would have been stopped between rounds) but Franklin had already lost, it was just an issue of the time it took Yves to react and stop the fight.
Franklin had already lost, it was just an issue of the time it took Yves to react and stop the fight.
The exact same thing could be said of Jones and Hamill, which should have already been stopped prior to the 12-6 elbows. In Franklin/Belfort, Yves had not in any way reacted as if he was about to stop it until the final shot.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
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by The American Ronin on Apr 8, 2011 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
The Problem
is that if you penalize a fighter for illegal strikes after a KO then you have a situation where the fighter is penalized by the ref for the ref not doing their job. It is the referee’s job to stop the fight once one of the fighters is ko’d. Guys are conditioned to keep going until the ref stops them.
Remember Palhares versus Marquardt.
Carwin vs. Mir was the same situation, but more blatant...
Starting the final series of shots, by my count there were 9 legal shots, 17 back of the head shots, and 3 shots that I could not determine culminating in the back of the head KO.
The shot that clearly turned Mir’s lights out was square on the base of his skull, almost right where it meets his spine at the top of his neck, nearly dead center on the back of his head. After he was out there were 4 more quick legal shots and that was it…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Apr 8, 2011 2:24 PM EDT reply actions
the way I see it
the first hammerfist hits Rich in the back of the head, noticing this Vitor throws what looks to me to be a legal shot. The last punch Rich turned his head. I say this is a non-issue, you can’t be expected to know what the other guy is gonna do, that he is going to turn his head as you are comin down.
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People are KIND of missing the point. This is less about Franklin/Belfort than it is a look at a sports concept
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 8, 2011 2:26 PM EDT reply actions
That's how I felt.
But then Snowden had to roll in and drive the conversation back to a discussion about this one particular example and now here we are. Bummer.
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by lowellthehammer on Apr 8, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Well, the point is that making a call or not making a call in a situation like that of Jordan’s push-off on Bryon Russell to sink the legendary game-winner is a tricky and useful topic to debate and hash out further.
But the problem with Snowden’s article about that point is that he uses an MMA example that is almost certainly not the best one he could have provided for the MMA-based application of that point. In fact, it has thus far actively been a detriment to his point by driving conversation that way instead of towards what was desired.
I’d pick something like the ref who let Hirota’s arm get broken or Mazzagatti’s call in Jones/Hamill. Those are more obvious “stop this fight/not stop this fight” moments that followed the letter of the law, yet prompted people to get all in a tizzy.
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Ug
Jordan’s push-off on Bryon Russell to sink the legendary game-winne
To this day the shot pisses me off.
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by Chris Barton on Apr 8, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
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I don’t understand how they lost both Sloan and Deron Williams in the same season.
It was a “he goes or I go” choice and they somehow failed at even keeping one from going.
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Kinda like the Tenn Titans
The Coach is all “Either Vince Young or me.”
So they cut VY
Then they fire coach Fisher.
WTF?
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I never bought that it was a "him or me" thing
Sloan has fought with players for fifteen years and it had never come to that. Supposedly Ostertag had to get physically restrained by teammates at practice to keep him from fighting Sloan. That never stopped Sloan from coaching before. Something else must have been going on.
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by pdl on Apr 8, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Brookhouse just beat me to it .... People are getting off point
The point is – omission bias clearly applies to MMA like it does in other sports.
There is probably a more blatant example than Franklin/Belfort, but I can’t think of one off the top of my head.
I was just happy to see this book referenced as I am currently halfway through it. I would highly recommend it as well.
Carwin - Mir
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Apr 8, 2011 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
This was an informative read
An example of a referee stepping in and making the technically correct call only to be chastised for it would be Mazzagatti’s call in the Jones fight. Fans have always held the stance that if it’s badass they’ll allow it. Thanks for the piece Snowden, you’re more equipped than most to write these kinds of things.
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by Neil Manich on Apr 8, 2011 2:30 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Different issue
People were mad about Jones/Hamill because it so clearly should have been stopped prior to the 12-6 elbows.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Apr 8, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Like the article
Omission bias is a big issue, I think the Carwin-Mir fight is a clear example of how omission bias can be deadly.
i count one
one clean shot to the back of the head.
and it was his last shot – yves was already rushing in
Perhaps the media was silent because blows to the back of the head happen in two thirds of almost every single damn match out there.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 8, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
What smells like gasoline?
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by Dooda on Apr 8, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
See also:
Tim Kennedy vs. Nick Thompson.
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We do need to monitor these types of punches very very closely
One fractured vertebrae or ,even worse, a paralzyed fighter would set this sport back pretty far.
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Agreed. That’s what I think most people don’t see. “Well Franklin was already out before that last illegal blow landed, so who cares?”. Well those shots are illegal for a reason, they are dangerous. When that happens, the outcome of the fight shouldn’t be changed as the referee had already called the fight in his mind, but the guy who lands an illegal blow should get penalized, either forfeit a portion of his purse, or a suspension of some kind. An illegal shot is an illegal shot, and it could result in brain damage or other injuries as you mentionned. Guys have to know when to hold back and stop themselves from landing illegal shots behind the head.
by Shnak on Apr 8, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I feel like Snowden just brings negativity to MMA journalism.
Boycott?
The Big Book of English for MMA: Brazil Edition! Including Such Staples As:
"I'm Ready For Fight!"
"I'm Excite For Fight"
"I'm Train"
"He Will Receive The Punch"
"I'm Good Standup"
Wow, this is the most absurd application of “Snowden is just being controversial” I’ve seen.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 8, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
haha agreed.
i think snowden writing this kind of stuff is only going to shed positive light on an issue maybe not everyones thought about.
At the very least its something im going to be looking for a little bit more
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It’s consistent negatively from him.
This case which caught my eye is just the straw that broke the camel’s back. To harp on a fight that was 2 and a half years ago.
What was this post going to do? Rally up people to discredit Vitor’s win? It’s already controversial that he got the title shot with one catchweight fight. Snowden just wants to stir the pot and for you to say that isn’t true is absurd.
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There's you.
See that little dot WWWAAAAAYYYYY the hell over there?
That’s the point.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
Snowden has his moments where he takes very controversial positions, but this is certainly not one of them…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Apr 8, 2011 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
The exact rule
"Strikes are not permissible in the nape of the neck area up until the top of the ears. Above the ears, permissible strikes do not include the Mohawk area from the top of the ears up until the crown of the head. The crown of the head is found where the head begins to curve.
In other words, strikes behind the crown of the head and above the ears are not permissible within the Mohawk area. Strikes below the top of the ear are not permissible within the nape of the neck area."
http://unintelligentdefense.blogspot.com
Bleh...
quite piling on Snowden- it’s an interesting concept. (and more importantly a very sound one.)
interesting article
Though I don’t really agree with the example/ would like more examples. I think the “back of the head” is too much a gray area in the first place, because those types of strikes often come because a person is turning away from the strikes.
With the new review system in place, would you have agreed with the outcome being changed to NC due to illegal strikes?
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by Austin Martin on Apr 8, 2011 3:00 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
This is pretty well-known in the NHL
In overtime and in the playoffs they tend to put the whistle in their pockets.
The reasoning is that while in regular season games you need to be extra vigilant to prevent frequent rule violations (ie. you don’t want people to be constantly pushing the envelope), in the playoffs (or big fights) you don’t want a minor technicality to change the course of the match. It’s really a good thing if you think about it. Of course it can turn out badly, but overall it’s a positive effect.
LOL this guy puts stuff on your front page?
Nice read… NOT. Talk about being BIAS. Vitor MIGHT have hit him one time in the mohawk zone.
Go look for something with a little more substance to hit your quota.
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God…I was SO in the mood to ban someone. THANK YOU
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 8, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Of course. How could you not?
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Bloody Elbow // "Everybody underestimates the kick in the groin." - Bas Rutten
I don’t really post often and I agree the above comment was meritless, but was that really a ban-worthy remark?
If you’re going to come in and insult a writer’s work without discussing the actual post in question and then tell him to look for something better to “meet his quota” yes. It is.
We put in a lot of work for what amounts to very little money. We don’t need to get shit on by morons who can’t even have the decency to say anything about the article they’re trying to shit on.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 8, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought it was a good article, but I will say that in the fury of ending a fight the rare back of the head blow is inevitable. I’m not saying it’s ok, I just think its hard to prevent and questionable to penalize.
As far as the ban, Is this why MMA Mania posters are always making negative remarks about BE mods? I never understood the dynamic, but it seems like they get lots of their members after getting booted from here.
I think it’s hilarity how instead of saying “critique or criticize or ridicule” you go with “shit on”. hahaha
Well. Critiquing or criticizing usually requires something other than “LOL YOU SUCK!”
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 8, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Not when it comes to me, sir.
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by Derek Suboticki on Apr 8, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Uhm, he did quite clearly say “Vitor MIGHT have hit him one time in the mohawk zone.” He was short in his phrasing probably ‘cause that’s all the effort he felt a sawing to this post warranted. I’m with him, it looks to me like all three are good, which makes this a big article about… nothin’.
If that's all he could be bothered to post...
He should have posted nothing at all.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
He could have made an argument for his position.
Not just repeat the same thing other people have already said, with extra crudity.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
He would have been fine if...
he at least offered an opinion on the piece. “THOSE SHOTS WERE LEGAL”. Then he can proceed to say something negative about Snowden. “THIS ARTICLE SUCKS YO”.
I’ve been watching too much Breaking Bad. Can’t get Jesse Speak out of my head.
I’m on my phone so I can’t rec…but I want to commend u for mentioning breaking bad.
Fav show on tv these past few years….havnt been able to find the time to watch much of the new episodes tho which makes me a little sad.
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by HERZ on Apr 8, 2011 5:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Crap I wanted to ask him what “bias” he was talking about. There’s zero bias in the article. It’s an iffy example, but the overall concept is really interesting in the concept of mma. I would’ve the included the fight where herb dean said an illegal knee with a hand down was okay because the fighter was “playing the game”
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2011 NCAA Men's Basketball Tournament Champs!
by Austin Martin on Apr 8, 2011 3:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That was such a good call, tho’. I remember it as well, and at the time it seemed like the perfect call, for accuracy, not drama, I might add. In retrospect, a bit weird that I’d think it’s OK without there being any kind of written, or non-written, addition to the rule that I know of, that says if you’re just doing it to not get kneed, it doesn’t count. But there and then, it felt like he was spot on.
There’s a video knocking around of Big John going over the rules with Frank Shamrock (I think it might be before the Baroni fight) where McCarthy tells Frankie that he’ll let him away with questionable knees if the opponent is playing games by putting their hand on and off the mat.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
Can we bring back “…NOT!”?
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we tried .....
But 1990 sued for copy right infringement. We settled out of court allowing only charlie Sheen to use it since he is gonna die soon. Crack induced heart attack.
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by the-gentle-way on Apr 8, 2011 5:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You should have stopped after the first sentence.
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Bloody Elbow // "Everybody underestimates the kick in the groin." - Bas Rutten
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By the gif, the first hit is unclear, it’s possibly around the right ear or so, as the hammerfist is swinging back to the point where Rich’s face is. The second clearly caught his face. The third is clearly the back of the head, and happens at least once on every fight card you see.
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Awsome article Mr. Snowden, although I think your example is not solid enough to support your argument.
What about the Lesnar/Carwin fight? Josh Rosenthal let it go on when it was pretty clear that Lesnar did not want any part of this fight anymore. It could be argued he did not want the UFC’s biggest star to lose because of his judgement?
What about GSP/KOS II? The ref decided to let the fight go on based on an adrenaline filled Koscheck telling him and the doctor that he wanted to continue. Now KOS’s face is still numb and recovering from the fracture.
I think these examples describe “Omission bias” quite well. Referees have the responsibility of stopping the fight if a fighter is not defending himself intelligently or if an injury is too serious and could cripple the fighter. When they choose not to stop it, they don’t have the weight of a controversial stoppage on their shoulders, but it’s still the wrong call…
The GSP/Kos fight was more on the doctor than the ref imo – the ref should defer to the doctor’s medical judgement.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Apr 8, 2011 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a lot easier to see in that angle. The first and third punches are blatantly illegal. The second one is iffy but I could see how you could go either way on that.
"Ellismania is, along with the black President, a symbol of the future." - Mayhem Miller
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You’s trollin. The only illegal one is the last. Back of the head means the back of the head at the base where your neck is. Slow motion != full speed through Vitor’s eyes. He was finishing a fight, not laying on Franklin punching him in the back of the head with placed shots. Get a clue dude.
Back of the head means the back of the head at the base where your neck is
Based on what criteria, exactly?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Apr 8, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Omission bias is very real, and according to conventional wisdom is the real reason for road teams having worse road records, meaning that the difference is not the discomfort of travel, but the officials being recalcitrant (consciously or subconsciously) to make a call that will incite the home fans. Like many others in this thread, I see only one illegal punch (the last one) in the gif.
A question for you Snowden: Though none of your colleagues did, did you ask about the illegal blows?
by John Danaher's Hair on Apr 8, 2011 3:25 PM EDT reply actions
I’m a bit surprised by that. Any insight as to why?
by John Danaher's Hair on Apr 8, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I was of the belief that my best questions and material should be saved for one on one interviews. I almost never asked questions at the pressers. Of course, when Jen Wenk decided I didn’t get to interview Dana as promised that card, I was screwed.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 8, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
On the issue of omission bias, I can’t recall what the implications of this fight were and if they were big enough to weigh in the refs decision making process. I don’t believe that Vitor had been promised a title shot following a Franklin-weight victory but if he had been then I can see how a ref would be more reluctant about generating controversy over an otherwise clear cut victory.
by HarryBolsagna on Apr 8, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this is a good article
think it would have gotten the point of it across better had no specific instance been highlighted.
"Quhzks! That's what's the ducks says." - Toki
Reminds me
of a lot of basketball complaints about fouls disrupting the flow of the game at times but then people complain when certain fouls are not called.
How much of it is a conscious decision by the referee? Some just call em like they see em…but everybody sees different. These arguments in the discussion case in point. Also, what kind of training or where they trained could make a difference in perception.
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be." - Kahlil Gibran
Actually
the first hammerfist is legal by definition, as it does not hit the mohawk area at all.
the second, is definitely legal. it his the ear.
and the third is totally in an illegal area, but franklin moved his head as the punch is being thrown, and that’s actually a legal punch since the punch would have hit him in the side of the face had franklin not moved.
Now im not saying you don’t have a point with this article, but i will say you chose a horrible example.
I am confused how someone could look at that footage and see what you did.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 8, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I just watched it another five or six loops and see the same thing. The clearer gif shows that the first was a hammerfist directly above the right ear and forward of the “Mohawk area”, the second strike on the ear is borderline but a good no-call IMO, and the Third was an incidental illegal strike which shouldn’t change the outcome, but may warrant a fine if they really want to focus on fighter safety.
I’m confused how you still see three clearly illegal strikes with the better gif without acknowledging a single argument against it.
You’re being too liberal with your application of “back of the head.”
by Confucius on Apr 8, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
And this is what I see
(please excuse the crappy Paint-job)
I'd say the third is arguable.
I’d also say he was clearly aiming for the side of the head. I know we want to enforce the rules but we’re asking fighters to punch a moving target, I think since Franklin was clearly already out it’s very hard to call that an illegal stoppage.
It’s an interesting issue, but I think this is clearly an example that Yves was in the right to let go. These kinds of incidental “barely grazes the illegal area of the head” punches that happen once in a flurry can’t really be the basis for a DQ when the fighter was clearly on their way out and most of the legal area of their had was face down.
Science Time
Listen: try this. Put on a pair of MMA gloves. Find a partner. Go directly behind them. Place your hand (please don’t hit them!) anywhere on the back part of their head……
Waiting……
…..OK. You’re back. You probably now see it is pretty hard to directly strike the back of the head at all without venturing into a forbidden area. Unless you are fighting Tito Ortiz. His head is HUGE.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 8, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay
Even with that 2 and 3 are questionable. That said, there is more than 1 “back of the head” rule. Headphones is much more accepted these days and if we go by that standard all three are illegal.
Regardless, it’s hardly the point of the article.
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The spirit of the rule is not that an errant punch landed one knuckle in the illegal area. The spirit of the rule is they don’t want people punching intentionally to the base of the skull where serious spinal injury and brain trauma can occur. When you’re throwing punches at someone who is intentionally (and usually successfully) trying to avoid being hit by them, often the result is one lands where it wasn’t intended. There’s no way you could enforce this rule the way you’re talking about it and not have multiple fights overturned as no contests.
Off the top of my head cuff, there was incidental back of the head contact on Shogun vs. Liddell, Lesnar vs. Couture, Serra’s TKO against GSP, Guillard vs. Dunham (also had an illegal knee)… I’m sure there are dozens of others.
i think its fairly ironic
that you’re discussing bias in this article, and yet you are totally biased in you’re comments.
Discussing the implications of omission bias to MMA is interesting- in sports, omission bias is typically part of unwritten doctrine, like the examples given above: “Let the players decide the game,” “No soft fouls at the end of big games,” “Let them play,” “No one comes to see the refs,” etc. However, being a sport in which its participants safety is infinitely more jeopardized, I’m curious as to just how applicable it is to MMA. The refs job is to ensure the safety of the fighters, and interestingly I feel like refs in MMA are more scrutinized for not inserting themselves into a fight. How many times do we see calls for refs to more harshly penalize fence grabbers or for not standing lay and prayer fights up or for standing them up or for allowing beatings to continue beyond acceptable norms? In many ways, it seems like fans and media actually put the oneness on the refs to address perceived deficiencies in the sport’s structure (not to allow wrestlers to remain on the ground without advancing position) and performance of the fighters (i.e. the ref should have stood them up instead of the bottom fighter trying to get up) and I’m curious as to how these elements unique to MMA effect the notion of omission bias, and if its existing definition is really applicable to the sport.
by John Danaher's Hair on Apr 8, 2011 3:49 PM EDT reply actions
back of the head shots do get ignored in the finishing flurry
It’s a difficult judgement call. Many times, the fighter being hit is turning away as his will/ability to keep fighting disappears. If you’re hitting someone, and they keep turning their head away, it is hard to avoid accidental blows to the back of the head.
Deliberate targeting of the back of the head should always be punished.
Recklessly landing to the back of the head, which is usually what happens during an attempted finish, should probably be warned but not immediately penalized. If the fighter refuses to make an effort to keep the shots clean, then he should be penalized.
Unavoidable shots to the back of the head where the guy being hit brings his illegal target area into the line of fire mid-strike should be ignored.
I consider myself a softcore fan.
I apologize if I got a little carried away guys. I am losing my job Monday thanks to our friends in Congress, so I have been wound a little tight. Apologies.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 8, 2011 4:32 PM EDT reply actions
Me too
at least temporarily. We’ll see how long it lasts though.
Btw, are you using the earmuff or the mohawk definition of back of the head?
Also, the punch that drops Rich (and not the 3 punches once he is down) is what finishes Rich imo. The last 3 were icing on the cake.
Sorry to hear it.
That in mind – how’s the formatting on the Kindle version of your book?
"Ellismania is, along with the black President, a symbol of the future." - Mayhem Miller
Tweeter!
I have not heard any complaints, but I have never looked at the Kindle version.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 8, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah.
I’ve bought a few books on Kindle that rely on page formatting, and they’ve looked like absolute shit. I think an Encyclopedia might qualify. Guess I’ll just pick up the paperback.
"Ellismania is, along with the black President, a symbol of the future." - Mayhem Miller
Tweeter!
I suspect it’s fine. We’ve sold a bunch and there haven’t been any complaints. Normally you will hear from readers when Kindle books have serious formatting issues.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 8, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I just didn’t want to say anything definitively that might not be true. I suck at sales.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 8, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Appreciate the honesty, thanks!
"Ellismania is, along with the black President, a symbol of the future." - Mayhem Miller
Tweeter!
I have the Kindle version...
The only irritating thing for me is that there are so many entries that it can be a pain to navigate from one to another.
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I always want to see the call made according to the rulebook.
If a baseball umpire tomorrow started calling the phantom tag properly (thus denying most shortstops the double play), I would be overjoyed.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Burn after reading?
I am losing my job tonight at midnight (temporarily hopefully). I feel your pain so to speak. I would like to say just a couple of things to you Mr. Snowden and the rest of the BE staff. Please take no offense.
I have been visiting BE pretty much every day for the past several months to a year now. I was really excited about this website and originally enjoyed the more thoughtful, intelligent nature of its articles and comments. The banning of insulting, clearly small minded individuals seemed to keep the comments section void of the overtly racist, poorly thought out, name calling I have seen in other comment sections(yahoo).
Maybe it is me but, the past few months I begin to feel this website is becoming increasingly petty, negative, and biased. Now, the biased parts are squarely a bias of self, fitting facts to a person’s argument. Everybody seems to be very, very negative. Picking apart a person’s out of the octagon behavior, picking apart their Tweets, belittling wins. The petty thing is maybe a little off base but, I feel sometimes certain staff members take things a little too personally and lash out a bit more overtly then I would feel necessary.
I hope this does not anger anyone or make anyone upset. I just wanted to say it because, frankly I am not as into this website as I used to be. That is probably my fault. Familiarity breeds contempt and all that. I am probably going to take a break from this site for a bit, maybe. I really need my MMA news and really I am lazy and this is convenient. So, I will probably be right back on later but, I needed to vent some of my angst.
I recognize that no one cares about my opinion, just wanted to say something.
Good, bad... I'm the guy with the gun.
Begging to differ...
(1) Judo Chop alone makes BE indispensable.
(2) The interviews by Duane Finley, et al, also make the site indispensable.
(3) More to your point, negativity is interesting. Puerile negativity is not, but raining on people’s parade in an intelligent way gets eyeballs, and is frankly more entertaining than just positivity. That doesn’t mean it’s good—it might coarsen people, and there might be a race to the bottom, but it increases readability.
(4) My only complaint is that sometimes the mods get a bit too combative in the comments section, but I’m kind of a big pansy when it comes to Internet civility. I like way more of it than most people.
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Mir vs. Timmy
Although it’s not entirely similar, many people saw Herb Dean’s stoppage in the Mir vs Sylvia fight to be a referee overstepping his boundaries. Tim Sylvia himself said Dean was wrong to do it – but eventually (a long while later) was thankful. Many people saw that stoppage as a referee trying to involve himself too much. The fans and some in the media were saying that Dean should essentially let the fighters figure it out for themselves and “to allow the athletes to decide the result of a contest.”
Quick questions
If Yves had mad the call that any of the punches were illegal, how would the match have been ruled? The ref hadn’t moved to stop the fight yet, so would the punches be considered as resulting in the stoppage even though they weren’t the ones that really put him out? And would the match be considered a no contest because the punches were not intended to be illegal?
yikes
since the strikeforce takeover, mma news has really dried up
this was two years ago
also, rushfit
Once again
It’s not about Belfort/Franklin.
"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna
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