Mixed Martial Arts Salaries: A Look at Their Disproportionate Growth in the UFC
Introduction
Since World War II, the face of American big business has changed dramatically. In the 1950s and ‘60s, chief executive officers of successful companies obviously made substantially more than their employees. At that time, CEOs made roughly 25 to 30 times what their average employee made. In the 1980s, big business practices changed. Factories were being moved overseas to capitalize on cheaper labor sources while government under the Reagan Administration infringed less and less on big business practices.
In 1980, the CEO of a major company made about 40 times that of an average employee. By 1990, the ratio rose to 100 times. In 2007, a typical CEO of a major company made 350 times the average company worker. Wal-Mart exemplifies this shifting trend in business relationships vividly. It was the largest U.S. company in 2005, and at that time, Wal-Mart’s CEO made 900 times that of the average Wal-Mart worker (Pickett & Wilkinson, 2011).
Forty, fifty years ago, CEOs were more compelled to maintain positive relationships with their employees and adhere to tighter governmental oversights. Employees also had stronger collective bargaining rights and better relationships with management. Today, management and owners maintain distance from employees through protective legal mechanisms and worker disposability that together, limit workers’ efforts to unite in fighting for fair pay, health care, retirement, education, and other potential benefits.
So what does all this have to do with mixed martial arts?
In 2001, Frank and Lorenzo Fertitta paid $2 million to purchase the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC). It is common knowledge that the two brothers lost $44 million in their UFC investment from 2001 to 2004. But in April 2008, Forbes magazine reported that the UFC had skyrocketed in value to $1 billion. Assuming these figures are correct, then in seven years the UFC’s value increased nearly 500,000%. No, that is not a typo.
As stated from the 2008 Forbes article:
The majority of UFC revenues come from the monthly pay-per-view events. Additional cash is made from ticket sales to live fights and licensing fees form its Spike cable shows The Ultimate Fighter and UFC Fight Night. These shows in turn act as promotional tools to drive fans to pay-per-view events. More scratch comes from sales of DVDs and T shirts, as well as downloads from UFC’s library of past bouts.
In 2008, the UFC “generated a over a quarter of a billion dollars in business in gate receipts, UFC merchandise, and licensing fees” (Lim et al., 2010, p. 50).
At present it is difficult to say how much the Fertitta brothers make specifically from the UFC on an annual basis. For what it is worth, “Celebrity Net Worth” currently lists Lorenzo Fertitta's net value at $1 billion, though this would stem from much more than the UFC. And while the Fertitta brothers each own 45% of the UFC, the remaining 10% is owned by the company’s President and public face, Dana White, who is reportedly worth approximately $150 million.
Again, it is difficult, possibly impossible, to know what the three UFC owners make on an annual basis, or what percentage they each net from the UFC’s various revenue sources. But it is probably safe to say, they are making a substantial amount. Many would argue they deserve it – they had the vision and took the risks to build the UFC. They have persevered and profited under the capitalist system.
And so have some of their workers…
As noted in the prior piece in this series of essays, Georges St. Pierre made $8,000 in a winning effort at UFC 48; today a GSP win yields the current welterweight champ $400,000 – a 4,900% increase. Back in 2007 when Rashad Evans fought Tito Ortiz to a draw, he made $16,000; more recently after defeating “Rampage” Jackson, Evans was rewarded with $435,000 – a 2,618% increase. Clearly, as a UFC fighter’s star power rises, so can his salary. However, this is not necessarily the optimal way to analyze UFC fighters’ salaries over time.
Methodology
A more detailed description of the methods for this piece can be found here. In short, to collect data for this project, the available information was gathered from MMA websites for each fighter's publicly stated earned income from UFC 100 to UFC 127. Only major fight cards were examined for this project, essentially meaning cards that were held on a pay-per-view basis.
For this sample, a total of 15 fight cards were examined, in which 326 payouts (also known as a fighter's "purse") were made to fighters; fighter salaries for 13 UFC fight cards during this timeframe could not be located. These payouts will be referred to as the “Post-UFC Boom Payouts.” Additionally for comparative purposes, 100 payouts were examined from UFC 44, UFC 46, UFC 47, UFC 48, UFC 49, and UFC 51, fight cards that took place from 2003 to 2005, just before the UFC turned the corner and began making major profits. Data for these earlier payouts were gathered from a blog managed by Ivan Trembow (here, here, and here). These payouts will be referred to as the “Pre-UFC Boom Payouts.”
There are a few important limitations to these methods. First, the public compensation made to fighters within the UFC promotion does not include "backstage/locker room" bonuses that are given to select fighters by management (as noted by commenters in the first article using this data set). Nor does the data set include possible royalties that elite fighters may secure from pay-per-view buys, DVD sales, etc. (which would expand the stratification among fighters since middle and lower-tier fighters would likely not secure such compensation).
Findings and Discussion
Pre-UFC Boom Payouts (N = 100):
- Mean: $29,180
- Median: $8,000 (best measure)
- Standard deviation: $46,726
Post-UFC Boom Payouts (N = 326):
- Mean: $66,012
- Median: $27,000 (best measure)
- Standard deviation: $92,164
It is worth reiterating that the standard deviation (general dispersion from the mean) in both these cases is extremely large, demonstrating the massive inequality in payouts among fighters. Furthermore, the standard deviation has expanded substantially over time, nearly doubling from the pre-boom to post-boom years, which is attributed heavily to pay increases among the UFC’s top stars, coupled with very modest increases for prelim fighters.
A comparison of the means is statistically significant at .001, indicating a highly significant boost in fighters’ average pay over the years. However, the best measure when examining average income is the median, and clearly the median pay for UFC fighters has risen substantially, up from $8,000 in the pre-boom years to $27,000 in the post-boom years, a 237% increase.
The pay distribution between the two samples was also made, dividing each sample into rough quartiles:
| Lowest paid 25% | Third highest paid 25% | Second highest paid 25% | Highest paid 25% | |
| Pre-UFC Boom | $2,000-$4,000 (n = 30) | $5,000-$8,000 (n = 26) | $10,000-$23,000 (n = 19) |
$30,000-$225,000 (n = 25) |
| Post-UFC Boom | $3,000-$12,000 (n = 84) | $13,000-$26,000 (n = 78) | $27,000-$81,000 (n = 82) | $83,000-$500,000 (n = 82) |
As would be expected, within each quartile fighters make considerably more in the post-UFC boom years. The top earner in the pre-UFC boom sample was Randy Couture, who earned $225,000 ($150,000 to show; $75,000 to win) at UFC 49. Couture’s top earnings at UFC 49 were less than half of what Chuck Liddell and James Toney made ($500,000) in losing efforts at UFC 118 and 115, respectively.
But even in the earlier UFC sample, status was a critical factor that increased fighter pay. Tito Ortiz earned three out of the top ten purses in the “pre-boom” sample, losing twice and both times earning $125,000. Within the lower quartile of the earlier sample, a few fighters were represented who still compete now and have heavily improved their name recognition (e.g., Chris Lytle, Josh Thompson, Jorge Rivera, Nick Diaz). However, most fighters in the lower quartile have not been active in the UFC the past two years.
The decreased activity of many fighters in the lowest quartile of the “pre- boom” sample is significant because it could suggest what will occur among the larger number of lower-tier fighters on the current UFC roster. As the global market of fighters expands, the lower-tier fighters become more expendable. Their work status is increasingly precarious in an occupation that is already erratic due to the sport’s highly physical nature.
In fact, looking at the lowest quartile of the “pre-boom” era, there were 27 fighters represented (for 30 payouts). Of these 27 fighters, only 8 had competed in the UFC in the last two years (roughly 30%), though a few of these fighters who had not recently competed in the UFC were competing in high profile matches elsewhere (e.g., Nick Diaz). Most fighters in the lower quartile remained active; 21 out of 27 had fought in either the UFC or another organization within the last 2 years, while 9 had not competed at all since April 2009.
This may not be terribly surprising – these are typically the UFC prelim fighters getting a first or second opportunity on a UFC pay-per-view card, or the aging veterans lucky enough to be given an extra chance. As time goes by, the less talented pool fades out. Under the fight game’s structure, they are replaced by younger, more talented prospects. And the callous, business-oriented perspective argues high monetary compensation is not these lower-tier fighters’ reward. Rather, they were given the opportunity, and they washed out of the sport's top organization.
For all the rhetoric among some fans and pundits who suggest fighters should be grateful for simply having an opportunity with the UFC, critics must also consider an average pro-MMA fighter’s “fighting life.” If fighting and training others is a full time job, this leaves minimal time for developing additional occupational skills, despite the fact that virtually all fighters will have a significant amount of years to live after their professional fight skills have diminished.
Although fighter purses have risen substantially, their growth is hardly commensurate with the UFC’s increased value during the same general timeframe. As one BloodyElbow commenter stated in response to lower-tier fighters’ precarious position in the UFC:
Another thing is that over time, although fighter pay has steadily increased, the amount of money the UFC makes has risen enormously. The fighter’s piece of the pie has become much smaller, and therein lies the issue. If you kept the percentage of revenue allocated towards fighter’s pay the same as it was a few years ago, then the stars would be making true star money, and the lower level guys would be making more than 3 grand a fight. That’s where the REAL money is, not in the “_ of the Night” bonuses.
Thus, when Randy Couture discusses a fighters’ union, health insurance, retirement plans, and education, people should listen and do so seriously. For health insurance, fighters are covered for injuries that happen in the Octagon on fight night only. Is it completely implausible to make health insurance available once a fight contract is signed, at which time the fighter is training specifically for a UFC fight card? Additionally, more substantial increases for fighters’ purses – at all levels, but especially the lower levels – are warranted. The UFC has grown immensely, and for that, many people are grateful, including many fans. Why not raise the fighters’ compensation at a more proportionate rate? Ultimately, they are the reason fans keep coming to watch.
Non-internet References:
Lim, C. H., Martin, T. G., & Kwak, D. H. (2010). Examining television consumers of mixed martial arts: the relationship among risk taking, emotion, attitude, and actual sport-media-consumption behavior. International Journal of Sport Communication, 3, 49-63.
Pickett, K., & Wilkinson, R. (2011). Preface to The Spirit Level: Why Greater Equality makes Societies Stronger by Robert Reich. New York: Bloomsbury Press.
David Mayeda is Assistant Professor of Sociology at Hawaii Pacific University and lead author of Fighting for Acceptance: Mixed Martial Artists and Violence in American Society
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Comments
Might want to give a reference point for comparison's sake
what are the stats for the 3 major US sports for example? Or soccer abroad
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Apr 26, 2011 2:40 AM EDT reply actions
NFL:
Minimum NFL Salary
As of the 2007 season, the minimum salary for a rookie is $285,000. The minimum salary increases according to the number of years the player has been in the league. The highest minimum salary is $820,000 for players who have been in the league 11 years or more.
The minimum salary structure for 2007 is as follows:
Rookies and first-year players $285,000
Second-year players $360,000
Third-year $435,000
Fourth-year $510,000
Fifth- through seventh-year $595,000
Eighth- through tenth-year $720,000
Eleventh-year and longer $820,000
They can recieve an additional $30000 bonus for attending the sylvia herpolscheiemer academy of performance art.
For the 2007 season, minimum salaries in the NFL are:
Rookies – $285,000
One Year Veteran – $360,000
Two Year Veteran – $435,000
Three Year Veteran – $510,000
Four to Six Year Veteran – $595,000
Seven to Nine Year Veteran – $720,000
Ten+ Year Veteran – $820,000
NBA:
Rookie- $457 588 going up every year until 10th year where it the minimum is $1 306 455
(these stats are for the 2009-2010 season and do go up every single NBA season)
MLB:
The minimum salary for an MLB player is $380,000.
NHL:
The minimum NHL player salary in 2005-06 and 2006-07 will be $450,000; $475,000 in 2007-08 and 2008-09; $500,000 in 2009-10 and 2010-11, and $525,000 in 2011-12 (to the extent the CBA is extended by the Union).
What happens with players who have contracts for 2005-06 for less than the minimum salary?
The player’s contract may be bought out. If the contract is not bought out, his salary must be increased to the League minimum.
MLS (not the highest level of soccer):
MLS still uses low-cost labor. The minimum salary is $30,000 (increasing to $34,000 in 2009).However, a fair number of young players are actually only making $11,700-$16,650 a year as “developmental” players.131 players make $30,000 or less a year � a whopping 45% of the 288 players on MLS rosters.
Average salaries per organization:
NBA: $4,900,000
MLB: $2,866,544
NHL: $1,460,000 (used to be $1,830,000)
NFL: $1,250,000
EPL: $1,162,720
MLS*: $90,000????
AFL: $85,000
WNBA: $55,000
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I was looking for the Mean, Median and SD
I could probably figure it out myself from those or looking it up, but I’m too lazy.
Basically, if he’s going to compare XYZ from this sports, I’d like to see him compare XYZ from other sports as well.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Apr 26, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
We can't forget that the 3 major US sports are far bigger than the UFC - so salaries will be much bigger
Should also compare with other small sports and see if the UFC is paying better or worse than, say, cycling, volleyball, squash, badminton, field hockey, track and field, swimming, etc.
see post above
I’m not really looking for highest salaries, but mean, median and SD. Some way of easily comparing the percentages he’s breaking them down into
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Apr 26, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn't this just a reflection of the way that business is run globally in every industry
As businesses have grown from the 1980s the guys at the bottom make incrementally more (rising with inflation+). The guys at the top (C-Suite plus VP level) make multiples more and the guys who REALLY rake it in are the owners.
If you took say a major retail chain like Walmart – and you compared the salaries of the bottom tier workers from 1970 to 2000 – my hypothesis would be that there wouldn’t be a huge difference. The salaries would have risen with inflation but not risen with the growth of the company. Walmart has grown in multiples but your bottom tier of workers are not going to make multiples more in salary. There are more of them – but they’re not getting paid much more. However Walmart’s senior management will make multiples more due to being key components of the growth of the company. And the Waltons are sitting in the top 10 of the Forbes rich list.
Same with fighters. From the basic data provided above it actually seems like the UFC is being pretty fair with the increases.
The point of the intro was indeed to show that the UFC is following the general global big business trend. Personally I don’t feel this trend is beneficial for society, especially not for the working class.
It can be beneficial by providing incentive for members of the working class to drive toward greater achievement...
Either individually (i.e. taking on training or reading up to develop knowledge in their spare time, starting their own small business, etc.) or ensuring that their children focus on their education.
Great article David.
And thanks for the shout out.
I’ve thought for some time that we would all be alot better off if we could strike a balance between capitalist and social ideals. We’ve advanced to a point in civilization where we can cover the basic needs of everyone, it’s just a matter of spreading the wealth better. Individual accomplishment need to be incentivized for sure, but right now, with the richest 5% of the population holding over 95% of the wealth… things are horribly disproportionate, and we are headed for collapse if this doesn’t change.
Back on topic here, the UFC is no different. The executives need to stop banking so much of the money, and do what’s good for their brand, what’s good for their athletes, and what’s good for the sport- pay the fighters better. Set them up with health insurance and retirement plans. Because without the fighters, the UFC has no product. Increasing fighter pay will attract more elite athletes to the sport.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 3:14 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
When Dana White
can gamble away millions of dollars in Vegas casinos without blinking an eye, then things need to change.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Because
that means the guy is obviously making way more money than he should. I definitely think Dana has earned his keep. However, if you literally have millions of dollars you can just throw away like he does, you are officially making too much money.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 7:07 AM EDT up reply actions
They deserve their fair share of the money Zuffa nets.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
But how do you define "fair"?
I tend to use “what the market is willing to pay you”.
So, if I bring bananas to the market, and ask for $4 each when customers are willing to pay $1, I won’t sell any. So the “fair” price is $1 and if I can sell 10,000 a year, my fair income is $10,000.
But if I have excellent management skills and the banana farm hires me for $1,000,000 per year to manage it, then my fair income is $1,000,000.
I don’t see that the manager has to get paid the same as the market salesman. And I don’t see that it would be “more fair” to bring the pay rates closer together somehow.
by Arca MMA on Apr 26, 2011 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Well, there's the impasse.
I don’t think that any human being ever needs or deserves 150 million dollars (Dana’s estimated net worth). Not when there are guys working just as hard as him, and are making a huge sacrifice to their bodily health, and putting on the actual fights that the business are based on, but are making fractions of what he makes.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
My gut says yes...
My head says no… and in practical terms, how do you enforce “excessive” wealth being redistributed? Legislation to tax wealth is sort-of in place (i.e. higher earners pay more taxes)… but there are plenty of loopholes and in practice most high earners have access to all kinds of breaks average people don’t, resulting in much lower real tax rates for them.
Both sides of politics in countries like the US and Australia tend to do this, even when they talk about promoting a more “equitable” distribution of wealth.
Well,
the extremely rich don’t pay anywhere near the amount of taxes they should. My ideal society is somewhere between Marx’ ideas of “to each according to his needs” (communism) and “to each according to his contribution” (capitalism).
Society exists as an institution to better our own living conditions. All together, we can have all of our basic needs met, and also provide incentives for ingenuity, talent, hard work, etc. It’s just a matter of the greedy, money grubbing, selfish assholes doing everything in their power to hold onto their gratuitous luxury and disgustingly excessive lifestyles.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Elliot! No need to get personal...
It’s just a matter of the greedy, money grubbing, selfish assholes doing everything in their power to hold onto their gratuitous luxury and disgustingly excessive lifestyles.
I resemble that remark! Just kidding. I do OK, nothing near “rich”, and live a pretty frugal lifestyle.
I take it you are referring to Dana’s dropping a few mil every time he visits a casino. Well, interestingly, casinos are one of the few ways society can excessively tax the rich. Who loses all the big stacks in casinos? That’s right, people like Dana White. We, the average man, can benefit from this in two ways.
1) Buy shares in casinos
2) Casinos pay tax to the government – the bigger their profits, the more tax they pay, and the less tax burden there needs to be on everyone else.
Oh, and that wasn't targeted at you.
Just some general rambling. And I agree that the casino’s are a great way to tax the rich- except for the part where the rest of the money Dana spends goes to an even richer asshole CEO, like Steve Wynn/ Sheldon Adelson.
Btw, I’m from Las Vegas, and do appreciate that the casinos basically eliminate the need for us to pay state income tax.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
And also
I just think that the money Dana is getting from the UFC, where he can go blow all that money at a casino, would be much better allocated towards struggling, up and coming (or even gatekeeper) fighters.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I think most of us agree that would be a nice thing for him to do
I’m not convinced that doing it would improve the UFC’s profits significantly.
And is it “good for the sport”? I don’t know. I find it hard to get my head around that concept because it encompasses many things: attracting good athletes; increasing profits for promotions; taking care of lower tier fighters; other factors… and these factors don’t all pull in the same direction.
Exactly.
And keeping the athletes happy, and giving the guys on the bubble a chance to train full time will improve the quality of the fighters and fights, which will entertain the existing fans, and help to attract new ones.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
The question then arises...
Since we know the UFC mgt are pretty damn smart, capable of turning a loss-making business into a huge valuable asset, WHY do they decide to do not pay the fighters more, IF there would be positive financial returns as a result?
The answer is, they probably ran their numbers and figured out the optimal pay rates that maximise value (factoring in both growth and profitability). They certainly are paying higher wages than other promotions, so they didn’t just look at “market rate”. They, in fact, DEFINE the market rate. And they aren’t pulling these numbers from their bum, right? Must be, they are calculating what makes sense financially (and that’s not just to minimise cost – it’s to incentivise/develop employees in order to maximise their own value).
What makes sense to them
isn’t optimal for the fighters, and that’s exactly why unionization is the answer.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
There is an objective amount each person should make?
No offense, but it’s pretty arrogant to claim to be the arbiter of wages on a planet of close to 7 billion people (or any other number for that matter).
by High Knee Destroyer on Apr 26, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I never claimed that.
I’m just saying that as things are right now, the fighters aren’t receiving their fair share of the money. They are the meat of the UFC product, and deserve to be justly compensated for putting on the fights that the UFC promotes.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Clearly the fighters disagree with you
When the UFC can’t put on any fights because the fighters refuse to fight at the wages the UFC is offering, then you will be correct in your conclusion that fighter pay is too low. As it is, the fact that fighters agree to fight for the wages the UFC offers demonstrates ex vi termini that they are receiving their fair share, to use your words.
by High Knee Destroyer on Apr 26, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
There's a difference
between paying someone just enough to keep them around, and paying someone enough to satisfy them. It’s like a girlfriend that will give you just enough sex that you don’t leave her, but not so much that you’re satisfied. And they use that as leverage.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude
Again, no one puts a gun to fighters’ heads (that I know of). If a fighter is willing to fight at the agreed-upon wage, who are you or I to say he’s being taken advantage of? That’s kind of arrogant and presumptuous to think you know what his labor’s real worth is and that the two parties involved in determining that (including the fighter himself) don’t. The fact that the fighter accepts the wage demonstrates that he thinks it’s fair.
by High Knee Destroyer on Apr 26, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
The fact that the fighter accepts the wage demonstrates that he thinks it’s fair.
That’s a ridiculous statement. Reading the comments under posts like this just illustrates why we keep getting poorer while the rich get richer. It’s because a guy like “High Knee Destroyer” is so self loathing he actually WANTS to see the ultra wealthy step on the little guy, just until the point he has to scream. Then let the pressure off. Then step again a little harder.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 26, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
His statement is incorrect
But I’m not sure your response is really much better.
If fighters accept wages it doesn’t prove that they think the wages are fair, only that they think those wages are the best they can get. So that is the issue with his statement.
However, “we” are not getting any poorer, unless you are looking at a short time frame like the last three years. And within the context of this article, it is a particularly odd thing to say.
The median fighter salary, according to the article, jumped from $8,000 to $27,000. It more than tripled. So the fighters certainly aren’t getting poorer, not by any measure.
If someone wants to criticize inequality as such, then that is fine. But increasing inequality does not imply increasing poverty.
by Lauren J Darkbloom on Apr 26, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
However, "we" are not getting any poorer
Sure we are. As a nation, assuming you are an American. I’m not talking about fighters, which is pretty obvious.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 26, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
America as a nation is not getting poorer
Unless you are looking at a short time frame—the last three years.
On the other hand, if you look at the last two years, we’re getting richer! This only shows the dangers of cherry-picking time frames. It proves little else.
by Lauren J Darkbloom on Apr 26, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
The middle class and poor are receiving a much smaller piece of the pie than ever before. Are you denying this?
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 26, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course not
Why would I deny that?
by Lauren J Darkbloom on Apr 26, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I know this isn't feasible for everyone...
But if anyone has spare cash and wants to participate in the supposedly excessive profits made by corporations, all they need to do is put their money in shares. As opposed to beer, smokes, gambling, etc.
Or maybe we tax them at levels we did in our grandparent’s time? Or even Clinton’s time?
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 26, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not a fan of "big taxes" or "big government"
Government would be more likely to use the taxes inefficiently, wasting it in bureaucracy and not necessarily benefiting me, the taxpayer as much as I would hope. If I buy shares and have lower returns as a result of the government taxing higher, I’d be unhappy. I’d rather have the extra cash from higher dividends (as a result of low corporate taxes) and decide for myself, how to benefit myself with that cash.
Actually, I prefer zero corporate taxes. Take all the dividend payments to shareholders and add that to their total personal income for the purposes of determining personal tax liability. Higher earners would then pay a higher tax rate on those dividends, and low earners would pay zero to (a small percentage) tax on those dividends, thereby benefiting poor people directly (and making share ownership very attractive and profitable for them).
by Arca MMA on Apr 26, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Another problem with high corporate taxes
Is that it makes investment less attractive. If I get less return due to high tax, I’m not as likely to invest; or put another way, the return on investment hurdle rate for me to invest will be higher. Therefore it reduces the opportunity to create new businesses and jobs. This directly hurts the working class.
by Arca MMA on Apr 26, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No more of your lunatic ramblings please…
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 26, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Capital gains/Dividends increased from 15% to 22% (still far lower than historical levels), get serious about closing corporate loopholes, and raise the the rate on top earners > 500,000/yr to Clinton levels. What’s the problem? Oh, and I think most mid to upper tier fighters in the UFC are getting their due.
by Charlie Custer on Apr 27, 2011 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions
than "ever before"?
What is your frame of reference for the usage of “ever” here? When you were young I am sure you spoke with Depression Era folks right?
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by Urijah Bieber on Apr 27, 2011 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a ridiculous statement.
It’s a statement of fact. If the cost of getting in the cage are not worth the benefits of doing so, from the fighter’s point of view, then he won’t do it. This is the basis of economics — that when a person makes a choice, implicit in that choice is that he expects to be better off choosing the alternative than not choosing it. If a person does not think he will be better off choosing a specific alternative, then he won’t choose it. Your denial of this demonstrates an utter lack of economic education, which is unfortunate. Note that we’re talking about a human being freely exchanging his labor for a wage. No gun was used here. The UFC has no right to a fighter’s labor, and every fighter knows this. If he thinks the wage is unacceptably low, he is free not to fight for that wage.
Reading the comments under posts like this just illustrates why we keep getting poorer while the rich get richer
This is false. What makes the poor poorer and the rich richer are a variety of government policies, both fiscal and monetary, which crush the poor and middle class and reward the wealthy: wall street and bank bailouts, Federal Reserve-imposed low interest rates which murder savings and instead force speculation in capital markets by people who otherwise wouldn’t, etc. Your government is a plutocracy by the politically connected.
It’s because a guy like "High Knee Destroyer" is so self loathing he actually WANTS to see the ultra wealthy step on the little guy, just until the point he has to scream. Then let the pressure off. Then step again a little harder.
You owe me an apology for making such abhorrant claims. Swallow your pride and make it, Jonathan.
by High Knee Destroyer on Apr 26, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I owe you nothing. You’re cheerleading the rich against guys just trying to make a living. I loathe you and all the other corporate fanboys living vicariously through “Big Daddy” Dana White and all his real world equivalents.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 26, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
Ridiculously good post, Jon. Rec’d!
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by Jack.Barrington on Apr 26, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Obama voter, supporter of a negative income tax for the poor, corporate fanboy. That’s me!
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Apr 26, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
What's wrong with corporate fanboys?
I mean, all MMA promotions are corporations, and we are fans of them… If not for these corporations, how would we get our MMA? And of course the TV corporations, and the corporations who sponsor our fighters to supplement their meager fight purses. Corporations make the world go round. Who made the computer you’re typing on, the chair you’re sitting on, the electricity you’re using, etc ad nauseam. Capitalism is what makes this country great. If we’re temporarily getting poorer, that’s just part of the variability in economies, rather than a concerted effort by the rich to make the poor poorer.
Get this: the rich DON’T WANT the poor to be poorer. Why? Because it increases crime and makes the whole country a less safe and more unpleasant place to live. If you look up the stats, Americans are in fact the MOST GENEROUS in the world in philanthropic donations – some given by middle of the road people, but a lot by very very rich people (see Buffett, Warren and Gates, William). As a non-American, I am impressed by that, without having to be impressed by all things American.
I just don’t think it’s terribly difficult to say that I think the tax rate should be somewhere between 0% and 100%. I don’t want either side controlling everything. I think that we have a lot of edges to smooth out and the rich pay an absurdly low proportion of their income in taxes relative to historical precedents, but it’s capitalism (and allowing things/ideas/dreams to fail) that fuels the engine.
This country is great because I can be called a socialist and a free-market Friedmanite in the same day by two different people. The lack of agreement on anything ever is our curse and our blessing.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com and Bloody Elbow Radio
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Apr 26, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I am not a fan of any promotion.
I am a fan of fighters. That’s the difference between sports fans and pro wrestling fans.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I appreciate the product UFC, Strikeforce, Bellator, etc have,
but I don’t watch because of the brand name. The fighters are what interest me.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 27, 2011 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I admire competence.
I believe it’s what this fledgling sport needs to grow and flourish. So I am willing to overlook the sometimes negative idiosyncrasies of certain players. What I cannot overlook is the sheer tenacity that Zuffa exhibits while attempting to bring the sport to as many people around the world as quickly and as seriously as possible. They have a great product, genuine passion, and incredible business acumen. For right now, I think that’s the right formula. But there’s plenty of hubris in it too, and for that reason, it’s impossible to know if any of this is truly sustainable.
by Charlie Custer on Apr 27, 2011 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I have a quibble with your statement about the rich not wanting the poor to be poorer. I just don’t think they care one way or the other. There is kind of an unconscious assumption that with money comes the ability to live separately. Obviously there are many historical precedents for class segregation that contemporary times are beginning to mimic. For the most part (with rare but notable exceptions) it will not be the comfortably rich to advocate for the welfare of poor. I mean, come on.
by Charlie Custer on Apr 27, 2011 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions
What's wrong with you?
Unbunch your panties, Snowden. This is what you said:
It’s because a guy like “High Knee Destroyer” is so self loathing he actually WANTS to see the ultra wealthy step on the little guy, just until the point he has to scream. Then let the pressure off. Then step again a little harder.
If you can’t apologize for making such a stupid, inaccurate, and hateful claim, then you’re a spineless punk.
by High Knee Destroyer on Apr 26, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Something wrong
I hold my head
High Knee Destroyer gone…that commenter dead!
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 26, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Looks like he's gonna ban you.
Might take a few minutes to take effect.
This is the greatest comment I have seen on this website
It’s not even close.
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Head Kick Legend
I don't always agree with you Jon,
but you are absolutely, 100%, spot on here. Couldn’t agree more.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Economics Matters.
In a society of equality under the law the inequality of men with regard to intellectual abilities, will power and application becomes visible. The gulf between what a man is and achieves and what he thinks of his own abilities and achievements is pitilessly revealed. Daydreams of a “fair” world which would treat him according to his “real worth” are the refuge of all those plagued by a lack of self-knowledge.
The more sophisticated sublimate their hatred into…the philosophy of anti-capitalism, in order to render inaudible the inner voice that tells them that their failure is entirely their own fault. Their fanaticism in defending their critique of capitalism is precisely due to the fact that they are fighting their own awareness of its falsity.
— Ludwig von Mises.
by High Knee Destroyer on Apr 26, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
The fact that the fighter accepts the wage demonstrates that he thinks it’s fair
.
I could see why he said this, but I also think it’s not correct. He should have said:
The fighter accepts the offered wage because:
a) He recognises that this is the fair or above MARKET RATE for his labour (defined as where the supply curve meets the demand curve)… (note that the UFC pays above what other organisations pay, so are actually above the market rate)
b) It is preferable to receive this rate to take on this work, compared with other employment options. (Taking into account the danger, the training costs, the enjoyment, his skill sets in fighting and other potential work, etc).
In fact, he may not think it is “fair” in terms of how he risks his own life and limb compared with the owners of the UFC; but he’ll still take the job.
I should say I think "it's not QUITE correct"...
I believe many of the lower level fighters take the wage thinking it’s unfair that they get paid so little compared to the UFC owners and the higher level fighters. They will, however, still take it because they aspire to the higher pay levels. I don’t think they think about the fairness of market rates or alternative employment explicitly, but subconsciously that is all factored into their decision making.
Oh, sorry bro.
I apologize for sympathizing with the low wages fighters receive, what was I ever thinking. I can be such an asshole sometimes.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
That's ridiculous.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com and Bloody Elbow Radio
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Apr 26, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
But seriously...
Gambling away half a mil at poker while his employees independent contractors make as low as 4k to fight? And that’s only what he does in front of the press? How is that in any way responsible behavior?
Yeah,
Dana gambling away hundreds of thousand dollars in a single hand isn’t gratuitous in any way… I’m just pissed that he hasn’t made enough money to buy an armada of yachts filled with strippers and coke.
Especially when half of their fighters have to take side jobs to meet their basic needs.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Increasing ELITE fighter pay is what attracts elite athletes to the sport...
Which has already been happening.
The “social good” argument regarding lower tier fighters is that the UFC should engage in charitable practices for the good of their brand. This has some merit. I don’t have any problem with saying “Dana, be nice to your lower tier fighters, it’s the nice socially responsible thing to do.”
The “contribution to profits” argument… i.e. that the fighters in general are integral to the UFC’s growth – is wrong. They are not equally contributing. The ones who have contributed most are the stars, and they have had their pay increased massively over time. The ones who wash out and are replaced do not contribute much to UFC growth and are paid commensurate to their contribution.
When you say “without the fighters, the UFC has no product” are you implying that the UFC will lose the fighters if it doesn’t give them all these benefits? I don’t think you’re trying to say that are you?
If fighter pay continues to rise at a rate significantly higher than that of other industries, I don’t see that the UFC is doing anything wrong. The fact that the owners are reaping big rewards for their investment is simply their well-deserved reward for investing in the business.
It isn't just an issue of charity.
In order to train full time, fighters MUST have a liveable wage. Being able to train full time is HUGE in this sport. Just look at a guy like BJ Penn- obviously he’s talented, and a fighting savant, but the fact that he was able to completely dedicate himself to training is one of the biggest reasons why he developed so quickly.
Very few people have the financial stability and support that BJ had from his family, and increasing the pay of the up and comers would do alot to help them focus more of their energy on fighting. If you really think that 3 grand a fight is a liveable wage, you are fucking insane. A good training camp is 6-8 weeks, and if you’re an up and coming fighter in perfect health, the best you can hope for is to get around 4 fights in a year. That’s just fucking ridiculous. It would not cost Zuffa exorbitant amounts of money to throw these poor guys a bone.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
What you say is true...
But at the end you say “throw them a bone” and isn’t that the definition of charity?
Sure, full time fighters can develop faster. But who deserves to be a full time fighter? I wouldn’t say that “every MMA guy” or “every Zuffa fighter” deserves to be full time. If the UFC identified a few excellent prospects and sponsored them to become full time in order to develop stars, I could see that.
Guys who are willing to fight for $3000 per fight are clearly getting income from other sources. If I was an enterprising manager (I believe there’s a company that does this with wrestlers) I would sponsor a fighter in cash myself, in return for a greater percentage of his winnings than the standard. Perhaps if one company shows this model can work, a market will evolve where more management companies undertake fighter sponsorship.
You're referring to team takedown.
And although it might sound like charity, what I’m talking about is a classic case of “you have to spend money to make money”. Considering the skill requirements it takes to be in the UFC these days, I would say that just about every guy who makes it to the UFC deserve to be full time fighters, and at least have a chance to develop into an elite fighter. I would say that many never do get that chance, even though the potential and the drive is there.
And the guys who are just brought in because they are local draws, I think they deserve more than 3 grand as well. As I said- the live gate alone is more than enough to cover the fighter payroll, several times over. It would not break the bank for their to be a 5/ 6 grand minimum for fighters in the UFC. And ultimately, this is why I think a union will become necessary.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree it won't break the bank...
And I am playing “capitalist’s advocate” to your “socialist’s advocate”. :)
My emotional response is “DAMN RIGHT, the fighters should be paid more, it’s a travesty”.
A Union (or more likely, Association given the fighters are not employees) would help fighters shift the goal posts in their favor. I used to think that a UFC fighters’ association made sense. I realised, though, that raising the average wage/benefits (combined total value) of all the lower tier UFC fighters would not have the positive effect that you might expect. As mentioned in another comment, higher pay means less fighters employed – potentially. Alternatively, if the total number of fighters remains the same and the costs simply increase, what will happen is that there will be many fighters “worth” $3000 in the marketplace getting paid $6000 per fight by Zuffa. Knowing this, Zuffa will be much less forgiving of a poor performance, and we might see faster turnover. This could be worse than keeping a UFC job at $3000 (i.e. fight once at $6000, lose, and get kicked out). Therefore, not necessarily beneficial to “Union” members. I doubt that the “Union” can extract a UFC commitment to keep underperforming workers employed (like Unions often do). At the same time, faster turnover means more new prospects get a chance to try their talent at the UFC… so it’s not all bad.
The thing is,
I don’t think any of those bad things you mentioned would happen. We are paying 50 dollars to watch a pay per view, and the least amount of PPV buys a UFC ever has these days is 300,000. That is 15 million dollars right there, and that’s the baseline.
All the major sports devote much more of their money to athlete’s pay, to the tune of like 40-50%. By lowballing fighters and keeping pay low, the UFC is effectively limiting itself (and MMA) from ever reaching that status.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
This is true. But the UFC probably can't reach major sport status
If (pulling numbers out of thin air) the UFC currently pays 10% of its revenue to fighters, and decides it wants to get better athletes so triples the pay of fighters at all levels… then it would be paying 30% of its revenue to fighters.
Revenue: $100m
Fighter pay: $10m → $30m
Other Costs: $40m
Profit: $50m → $30m
Now, that means 20% of its revenue shifts to the fighters. If, for the sake of argument, the UFC has a 50% profit margin (i.e. $1 revenue means 50c profit to the owners), then that means Profit drops 40%!
What will this do to the future growth of the UFC? Probably very little. Sure, the quality of the fighting will improve – after a number of years. But who will notice? The fanbase will largely be the same now (I admit, it will grow somewhat, because a higher standard in a sport should attract more viewers), because many people just don’t like bloodsport.
All that happens is that, in return for modest additional growth, the owners sacrifice a large chunk of the profits over a significant number of years, before the investment in fighter salaries results in a new crop of better athletes taking up the sport. Could take 10 years before we see appreciable difference in fighting quality, and longer before the public cottons on and starts to buy more UFC.
As a strategy consultant, if I was advising the UFC, I just couldn’t justify such a rise in fighter pay. The reward would be too small and too long in coming.
Of course the executives won't do that,
but someone needs to FORCE them to do so. I agree that fight sport has a ceiling, but we have seen what kind of interest a truly breathtaking fighter can drum up… Muhammed Ali, Mike Tyson, Manny Pacquiao- all huge. I think MMA could have stars that big with scoring reform and better fighter pay.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I think we already have people like that (extremely talented)
Jones, Silva and GSP come to mind. And of course BROCKLESNARRR!!!… er. ahem. Sorry.
Well, Brock is a huge star, no question about it. If he had continued to win, he would have been easily the biggest spectacle the UFC is likely to have for the next decade. As it is, he is already the biggest earner in UFC history if I’m not mistaken.
But the UFC as a platform is not mainstream enough take full advantage of people like GSP and Silva. Although I have some “outside the box” ideas of how to catapult the popularity of the UFC via this fight.
Here it is (maybe there’s a fanpost in this… let me know):
1) Insist (via the right payments) that GSP and Silva fight each other – at a catchweight or MW, whichever works best for the fighters and UFC… might be best at catchweight to remove risk of losing belts.
2) Put together a blisteringly entertaining card. Use famous fighters like Brock, Rampage (perhaps against Jones), Couture (against an old nemesis like Liddell or Tito or find another exciting matchup), Griffin, and some less-known but entertaining guys like Lytle, Leben, Bonnar on the undercard.
3) Provide the WHOLE THING on free to air TV, and make (some) money from endorsements/ad sales instead. But the main purpose here is to pump the UFC brand, not to make megabucks on one event.
4) Prior to the event, advertise heavily on (global – UK, Australia, Europe, Asia, wherever it’s going to be shown… I can tell you the Aussies and probably Philippines would go mad for this.. maybe put one of their fighters on the card) TV to build up the fighters (GSP and Silva in particular) and let people know about the other stars appearing (Brock, Couture, etc).
5) Show the thing on a slightly delayed (say 5-10 minutes) telecast and CLEAN UP (edit out) the really disgusting parts (usually there aren’t too many really bloody scenes). This might be a travesty to some, but this is a FREE TO AIR card that kids might be watching. AND you can release the “Uncut” DVD later for the hardcores, or put uncut version on PPV simultaneously. This last thought just popped into my head – you might need to circulate news through BE and other sites that the PPV will be uncut, whereas the free version will be sanitised.
6) Do this once every 6 months or 12.
7) I truly believe some of these fighters can graduate into Pacquiao-like stardom – and interest in their other PPVs will also increase. I think the investment in this venture MIGHT (haven’t run the numbers) translate into much greater profits for Zuffa, and therefore be financially and strategically rational/justifiable.
I really like these ideas,
but if they were to do it on free TV, I think they would need to do it on network TV. Maybe now that Strikeforce is Zuffa owned, they can cut a deal with CBS or something. I tend to think they would just want to take advantage of the huge PPV #’s that fight would do, instead.
Sometimes, with the way Dana & Co. handle business, it makes me wonder if they don’t want MMA to blow up, and would prefer to cash in their chips at the most opportune moment.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Absolutely they should arrange a deal with a network to show it...
Or alternatively (correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t live in the USA)… if most people can buy PPVs from their home set, then simply make it a $0 (or nominal feel) PPV and promote the hell out of it on free network TV. In the hours leading up to the event, advertise heavily saying “switch to PPV NOW for the UFC free event”. They may have to compensate the PPV provider, but future PPVs ought to be huge enough to cover that.
It's entirely possible they want to keep it growing slow and steady
And sell at a good time, without major risks and uncertainties. It would be a smart thing to do.
I sincerely, sincerely hope they don't,
but there’s lump in the pit of my stomach that worries about just that.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
i just wanted to say
that i really enjoyed this thread and reading the discussion between you and arca. its guys like you (who are much smarter than myself) and discussion like this, that are the bread and butter of this amazing site. So thank you.
That was a real kick and good for laughs and lashings of the old ultraviolent.
It really is my pleasure.
You just can’t get easily trackable, intelligent, civil discourse like this anywhere else on the MMA blogosphere.
I consider Arca to be a

Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 27, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I note we have a few socialists here...
And that’s a good thing, you need them to counteract the “callous” capitalists like me. . :)
And to speak on behalf of the underprivileged.
But to quote Josh Koscheck: Hard work pays off. I worked part time and studied full time to get my MBA. I borrowed money. I got a job later and worked hard and paid off my debts. No company that I had ever done contracts or worked for, paid for my training and living expenses. I’m not sure why fighters should get a better deal than other people.
The nature of certain industries, including entertainment and sports, is that there is massive stratification between stars and “extras”; and the intrinsic benefits of the job are partial replacement for cash pay (at the lower levels); the potential for reaching stardom is the carrot that keeps many underpaid artists working in the industry.
Increasing the minimum fighter pay is likely to do what it does in most industries: reduce the buyer’s demand – resulting in less fighters being employed at the new higher rate. Only the guys that are deemed to be worth that new higher rate will have a job.
They should actually get a better deal
because their window of opportunity to make money in the sport is very very small, and after they are done, their bodies will never be the same.
As a businessman, you will be able to keep working until you decide to retire, until you no longer have the energy to keep working. Which, for a white collar worker, can be a very long time.
Athletes are for our entertainment, and the deal we have with them is simple: You sacrifice your body for our entertainment, we pay you lots and lots of money so that you can live comfortably for the rest of your life.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
From the outside looking in, it seems that way...
But on the inside, a fighter looks at the total state of affairs: training costs, pay per fight, fame and fortune likelihood, damage to body and soul, window of quality performance, enjoyment of work, love of the sport… and makes a rational (hopefully) decision whether to enter/stay in the industry.
Those that decide to enter don’t really “deserve” anything other than what they get, to make a harsh sounding but brutally fair statement.
Note: If you raise the pay significantly, and attract “elite” athletes to the sport, most of the lower tier fighters we are currently talking about helping out would get crowded out of the UFC anyhow. Are you making these statements to help these specific guys (because higher pay won’t help them in the long run), or to encourage a higher standard of athlete to come in and crowd these guys out?
A little of both.
And yes, a smart fighter weighs all those factors and goes from there. And I definitely think that fighters should work after they retire from competition- open a gym, teach at your own gym, do commentary, manage fighters, pursue acting- whatever. But the money a successful fighter makes should ideally be enough so that they can live on that, and just supplement themselves with a cushy job for the rest of their lives.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Well...!
I don’t know why fighters in particular deserve pay that is enough for them to retire at 30-35 and forevermore “live on their savings and just supplement themselves with a cushy job for the rest of their lives”.
I mean, why don’t I or you deserve that kind of pay? We’ve worked hard, taking (mental/stress) blows on a daily basis that hurts health in unseen ways (ulcers, cancer).
You do say “successful” fighter… and on the whole, I think that the “cushy” situation already is there fore all “successful” fighters. Certainly the GSPs, Koschecks, Machidas, Rampages, all make enough that if they invested wisely they could retire today.
Unsuccessful fighters certainly should have enough skills after they retire to teach fighting or fitness in a gym, and struggle along like all the rest of us working stiffs. I don’t necessarily think they deserve to be cushy forever based on several years of untelevised undercards.
I just don't want there to be
guys in the same situation as Pulver, Coleman, Ken Shamrock, etc who really were top level fighters, but are just flat broke. I understand the sport was nothing then like it is now, but it sucks that these guys who carried MMA on their backs are now broke as shit.
And you really just can’t compare the stresses of working at a white collar job to the physical and mental duress inherent to elite level MMA training. To get that good, they literally work themselves to the point of exhaustion every day. They torture themselves with strict diets, and then severely dehydrate themselves to fight in a weight class where they aren’t completely undersized, and all so that they can go inside a cage and have another professional badass attack them.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure, it was sort of facetious but some white collar stresses can be truly intense
It’s a different kind of stress, for sure. Hard to compare which is harder. Perhaps coal miners, marines and firefighters might be a better comparison.
Nowadays, top stars like Shamrock would make a lot more than he did back then. But Shamrock also earned pretty decent money if I recall – and didn’t invest it wisely. All of those guys you mentioned, if top fighters today, should make more than enough. The real key is – how do they use their money? Most guys with big paychecks would probably indulge in the extravagant lifestyles you bemoan…
I would say
Alaskan crab fishermen might be more comparable. All athletes basically receive hazard pay.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
You mean, all except MMA fighters?
That would be… weird. I don’t see why MMA would be the one exception.
MMA fighters SHOULD receive hazard pay.
That’s basically my whole point.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this is where the UFC can think more extensively about how they can support their employees. If they’re unwilling to seriously increase fighter pay, they can be creative and create more educational programs or incentives that better insure fighters don’t become like Pulver, Coleman, and so on. Dana White used to boast publicly about how many UFC fighters went to college – how many have graduated among the current roster? Perhaps it’s a high proportion. If so wouldn’t it behoove the UFC to keep that trend going? How many fighters truly know the ins and outs, legally and fiscally, of running a gym? “Arca” may counter, it’s not the UFC’s job to support fighters with that kind of training, and technically under our current system, he’s right. But if the UFC has the resources stockpiled and the brass purports to care about its workers, why not reinvest in their lives a bit more? It would be good PR, if the fighters took the support seriously they would benefit, and they would give back to the UFC over time in PR.
No, I support the UFC educating its fighters
It would be a relatively inexpensive thing – and the PR is a good benefit. It makes total sense.
I don’t think all fighters should own and run gyms. Some might be best suited to being an instructor or sparring partner, or doing something else that uses their talents like being a stuntman or extra.
I definitely think that would be a good idea,
but fighter pay needs to go up, for sure.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody has a god-given right to be a fighter
If fighters don’t think they’re being paid enough, they ought to negotiate for higher pay; if that fails, they should find another line of work. Any fighter who accepts a wage to step in the cage obviously thinks he’s better off fighting for that wage than not fighting for that wage. All of those considerations about damaging one’s body and such are the responsibility of the fighter or his representative to bring to the table when negotiations are underway.
by High Knee Destroyer on Apr 26, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
That is the worst possible path of logic.
If you are really a fan of this sport, then you would never ever say something like that. You can’t just “negotiate for higher pay”. That’s just not how it works. And you’re saying that they should leave if they can’t make a living wage? That’s just ridiculous.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
And listen, I'll take it a step further
If you see a market imbalance, like you think you do in this case, that’s the perfect opportunity for an entrepreneur to step in and take advantage of it. If you think the UFC is underpaying their fighters, then that means the market is ripe for a competitor to step in and offer higher wages to fighters and steal all of their fighters away. If you don’t have the start-up capital yourself, what you should do is put a proposal together and bring it to venture capital firms (specialists in bankrolling entrepreneurs) and explain to them how fighters are underpaid and that the opportunity is there to bid them away from the UFC.
by High Knee Destroyer on Apr 26, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not simple, but ultimately...
If the UFC is seriously underpaying its people, they can be poached. Eventually a competitor will try to do it, IF that is true. Personally, I don’t think we will see that.
Yes, the miniscule fighter salaries are the real bar to entry for a MMA competitor. Come on man.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 26, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it's the opposite...
Small fighter salaries should ATTRACT new entrants, not bar them. HIGH fighter salaries would make it hard for them to enter, by driving up the costs.
Of course, there are many other barriers which is why I keep saying the market tends towards a natural monopoly, like computer Operating Systems.
Other costs/barriers like building a brand, establishing a presence on TV/PPV, are also high. High barriers to entry means few new entrants. Despite this, we’ve seen a number of new players over the last 10 years, so it seems the barriers are not insurmountable. Strikeforce’s owners probably did pretty well out of the sale, and part of their profitability was due to keeping salaries pretty low. If I remember correctly, it was paying HIGH salaries that did in at least one competitor.
But think about this:
To really compete with the UFC, you need stars. And the very high star salaries paid by the UFC are a legit bar to attracting them. And these star salaries are increasing at incredible rates (see GSP et al).
If I wanted to be a legit threat to the UFC, I’d have to recruit good prospects and lock them in to multi-year deals. To attract them, I’d have to pay them better than the UFC would – but this wouldn’t be too hard as they’d be only on the $3-8k per fight rates.
I’d ensure the pay rates allowed my guys to be full time fighters, to encourage their faster development into better fighters than the UFC’s underpaid part time lower-tier fighters. I’d probably invest in some mandatory camps that these guys would have to attend (hence, they cannot have other full time jobs). They’d have to live collectively like TUF; work their asses off or face being cut; be trained by hard nosed pros and coaches, hopefully with a brandname (because I’m gonna film the whole thing and hopefully get televised); and be incentivised by bonuses for performance.
Let’s say I start with 3 divisions and 20 fighters per division: 60 fighters. 3 fights per year each = 180/2 = 90 fights. Each fight, I pay on average, $12k to the winner and $8k to the loser. That’s $20k per fight, x 90 = $1.8m. Not too bad, so far.
But how am I going to get people to watch?
1) Configure the ruleset to encourage exciting fights. Penalise stalling.
2) Train all the fighters to fight “exciting” – encourage striking, active wrestling (takedown, GnP, slams, throws) and BJJ
3) Potentially use a ring, as the cage seems to allow wrestlers to dominate and provides wall-n-stall opportunity
4) Spend plenty on promotion
5) Allocate some (significant) money to bringing in brandnames that can draw – for example, people the UFC doesn’t want like Daley; Kimbo (if not too expensive, I’d keep him as a gatekeeper)… and some ex-UFC guys that aren’t names like Duffee – because ex-UFC is at least a small feather in their cap
6) Cultivate press and internet journalists – free passes, flights/accommodation if the budget will bear it – none of this “party line” stuff the UFC does – this one’s open to all
7) Give away freebies to BE readers in return for a commitment to post a review (they don’t have to say it was good, but of course we’d try our hardest to MAKE it good)
In short, borrow some of Strikeforce’s methods, add some of our own, be a development ground for fighters.
Now, after the initial 3-5 year contracts expire, the UFC will be trying to get some of our guys (if we’ve successfully made them into chicken salad). At this point we will have to rely on the fighters’ goodwill, as well as being able to offer better pay than what the UFC offers. So along the way, we’d be doing our best to treat the fighters well/fairly, and also retain enough profit (i.e. not be paying all of it out as cash to the owners) to make high offers when the time comes.
It seems to me (very roughly) you’d need $10m initial equity investment – to you and me, that’s a lot – to big concerns, that’s very small. Some of the private equity deals I worked on are $2.5 billion transactions. The smallest was $100m.
And obviously it’s a risky venture. The Fertittas have lost their share of $m’s in the UFC’s early days. But the payoff is potentially huge, so there may be someone who would get behind it. It’s been tried before, it will be tried again.
And since the market tends to a natural monopoly, we must have a coherent exit strategy, and guess what that will be?
Do you know what a monopoly is?
You sound like you have some basic economic education but you are lacking the ability to take that education and reconcile it with real world situations.
Exactly.
The UFC has too much control for a company to just parade in and do that. Affliction, Strikeforce, EliteXC, etc have all tried, and had serious marketing/ financial backing, but Zuffa sabotages them every time.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
They wouldn't have to leave...
They might have to just be satisfied with working a 2nd job part or full time to supplement their income.
If we want MMA to keep evolving,
we need as many full time fighters as possible.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Read an article not too long ago about corporations hoarding cash that was intended to be paid to employees and job development. Yeah, I hear you.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Apr 26, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Assuming these figures are correct, then in seven years the UFC’s value increased nearly 500,000%. No, that is not a typo.
Actually… yes, yes it is. Try losing a zero.
Shoot, you’re correct, maybe an administrator can drop a zero or cross it out and put “50,000%.” not sure that I can change it now.
Right next to the title
there should be an “edit” icon.
Xtreme Couture- The best never rest!
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 26, 2011 5:45 AM EDT up reply actions
And while the Fertitta brothers each own 45% of the UFC, the remaining 10% is owned by the company’s President and public face, Dana White, who is reportedly worth approximately $150 million.
That is incorrect. Each brother owns 41%, Dana has 9% and the remaining 10% are owned by a Flash Entertainment.
Not quite correct!
It was 45% less the 10% each person sold to Flash. Therefore the brothers have 40.5% each.
And this is the crucial point about Flash...
If management unnecessarily pays extra money to lower tier fighters, they could have a fiduciary responsibility issue and could be challenged/sued by their external investors. Management’s job is to maximise the return for the investors. When it’s a small group of buddies owning the biz, then they can do what they want. This changes when you have external investors – by law, management is meant to take care of their shareholders first. They aren’t entitled to simply throw extra cash (above market pay rates) at what are actually external contractors, not even full time employees.
Think of the UFC fighters as actors. The stars make big paychecks, the small parts get decent paychecks, the extras are waiters who get paid extremely little when they appear for a split second in a crowd scene… hoping for their big break to get into the middle and upper tier. These three groups correspond to the champs/contenders/stars, the middle level/gatekeepers, and the lower tier (fighters rotating through the undercards).
I doubt they'd run into any fiduciary duty headaches
if they paid their lower tier fighters a bit more. It would be pretty easy for them to argue that they want to attract an increasingly high level of athlete for the long term benefit of the sport (and profit of investors), and that they will also gain some public goodwill by paying fighters a wage that covers their living/training expenses.
Undercard fighters should be viewed more like stuntmen rather than extras. Stuntmen may not be the faces of the production, but they have real skills, they take major risks, and they contribute a healthy portion of the excitement. They don’t get actor money, but they make a decent living.
I consider myself a softcore fan.
Fair point, well argued. :)
I’m actually somewhat surprised that the lowest pay rates are as low as they are. I did decide to play “capitalist advocate” for this, as I said above, and leave my emotional urge to demand higher fighter pay to the side.
Well if the industry actually was an open, free, competitive market
Things would be different. But it’s not.
However, I don’t feel the anger often expressed by others towards the UFC or Dana White. MMA is a small market, and besides that, most fans want to see “the best fight the best.”
The sale of Strikeforce to Zuffa, combined with the almost total collapse of Japanese MMA, convinced me that there is only enough of a market at present for one major player. It’s sad for struggling fighters, but I don’t think there is a solution.
by Lauren J Darkbloom on Apr 26, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's a free market but tends towards a natural monopoly (in the USA), I believe
Competitors are free to enter the market. If a monopolist is making “excessive” profits, e.g. by overcharging customers or underpaying employees (i.e. monopsony/monopoly), this tends to attract new entrants.
There have been competitors – they have just been bought or have failed. There will be new competitors in the future. Just as Pride and other promotions have now been surpassed and replaced by the UFC, the UFC may one day be surpassed and replaced by an even better promotion; or it may sit alongside another strong player when there is enough interest in MMA to sustain two big promotions. Who knows… There are successful football leagues in Germany, Spain, Italy, England; and the sport comes together every now and then for European and World Cups. It may be that there is room for a big MMA promotion in Europe, and one in the USA, and one in Asia. And if they could see their way to letting their champs fight each other once every few years, that would be brilliant. It might have to be in a different format, so that the belts remain intact with their holders. For example, fight under a different set of rules blending Japanese and USA Unified; different round length/number… that way the belts justifiably do not change hands because the contest is NOT within the UFC’s or the other promotions’ rule set.
I think it's much more likely
That a significant competitor would emerge in a foreign country than that such a competitor will emerge in the US.
by Lauren J Darkbloom on Apr 26, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting to speculate...
It’s hard to see Japan getting back on its feet soon. My bet is Europe or USA gets the next decent sized new promotion. Why do I think USA still has a chance?
- Strikeforce set a good example and turned a profit for its owners upon sale (at least, I think it would have)
- There are already some promotions that could graduate into the role
- There is plenty of investment capital and entrepreneurial spirit in the USA, plus healthy interest in MMA
The remaining market here is small though
so it will be hard for any established investors or companies to make a difference in their marginal profits through MMA. And following strikeforce, if they do get involved, it will likely be with the hope of selling to Zuffa. That isn’t helpful long-term.
I would be utterly shocked to discover that any of Bellator’s current investors have any goals or hopes other than that Bellator eventually get sold to Zuffa.
Now maybe some tiny little promotion run by fanatical fans (I mean that in a good way) might some day rise up and make enough money to provide enough competition to Zuffa to start to drive up fighters’ salaries. Well, that will probably happen some day. But by the time it happens, today’s fighters will be past their primes.
Of course, there are other possibilities. For instance, maybe MMA grows so fast and the UFC gets too over-confident both about what they can charge consumers and what they can pay fighters. Then things could change more quickly.
So it’s true, you never know. But I no longer hold out hope for a significant competitor to Zuffa that will do today’s fighters in the US any good.
by Lauren J Darkbloom on Apr 26, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Zuffa's already doing today's fighters plenty of good.
If you consider that they have increased the pay of even their lowest tier at a rate higher than inflation (by a significant margin) then they are being pretty good bosses.
By absorbing SF and WEC, whose lower tier (and some of the upper tier) fighters earn less than the UFC, you’d expect to see those incoming fighters eventually get UFC pay rates which means a sudden jump upward.
They’re also giving the SF and WEC fighters (assuming full merging at some point) a chance to compete against the best, under the most powerful brand in MMA globally. This gives them exposure (read: sponsorship opportunities) and opportunity (if they win) to get to the high tiers and big bucks.
And as a virtual monopoly, they have the opportunity to drive massive profits for shareholders – which means there will be excess cash to throw at fighters (typically back room bonuses for the big boys… but also some for guys like Nam Phan who got his win bonus even though he lost). And eventually if they have truly excessive profits, they could be moved/persuaded (perhaps by an Association/Union) to raise the overall pay rates even faster than previously.
Someone should compare the increase in wages of the lowest tier fighters over the last 10 years to the increase in wages of the lowest tier workers in various industries… I’m willing to bet the UFC’s been far more generous than many other companies. Remember, they don’t really have to, because the market rate outside the UFC is lower.
Also, we seem to be thinking that a fighter who works for the UFC technically for just 45 minutes a year maximum, should earn a full time wage. Sure, they train for the fights (let’s say 2-3 months per fight). But they also have opportunity to work and earn outside the UFC as gym instructors/owners (and many do – a role that keeps them reasonably fit).
This is an interesting point about stuntmen.
The skills that fighters have are often transferable to fight stunts in movies. You see a lot of martial artist stuntmen working out there.
Unless there’s a glut of stuntmen in Hollywood (a situation in which supply would be excessive, driving DOWN the price of stuntmen), then fighters could move into that field and make better money, or else do it part time. An option if you’re just not getting paid enough in MMA.
Unionization is the only thing that guarantees the fighters the right to collectively bargain for a share of revenue that is consistent over time. The UFC consolidated the fighters – it’s now their move to organize. Absent an effort on their part, it’s difficult to feel particularly sorry for their lot, especially with the millions of workers worldwide battling everyday for equitable treatment.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com and Bloody Elbow Radio
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Apr 26, 2011 12:43 PM EDT reply actions
Exactly right.
You gotta fight for your rights. If the fighters can’t be bothered to "Union"ise, then good luck negotiating for higher pay. Big beats small, every time – well, most of the time – don’t tell Cain Velasquez.
Here's the problem.
The guys who really need the union don’t have the clout or financial security. The guys who don’t need the union are kept happy enough by the UFC that there’s a strong deterrent to attempting to form one with the star power they have…especially now that Zuffa’s the only game in town.
If there are any fighters to blame, it’s the top stars, I guess, but you can’t blame lower-tier fighters for not taking the chance when doing it probably guarantees getting blackballed.
by gzl5000 on Apr 26, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That would be a HUGE help, yeah.
I just don’t see it happening anytime soon. Not everyone in the top 10 makes the same cash, even in the same divsion…it could just take one or two stars being given enough money and incentive above others to break the power of a potential union before it starts,
I think you misread what I said...
Leave any stars that don’t want to join OUT, quite happily. If you can get everyone BELOW the top 10 to join up, you have something like 80% of the fighters including some good prospects. I don’t see how the UFC offering one or two of these guys extra money can break the union. It’s the en-masse bargaining power that the 80% of non-stars will have that can help them negotiate. A lot of them have other businesses and incomes like gyms. It would hurt them (the fighters, especially those without extra incomes) for sure, to stage a work freeze (i.e. no one in the 80% fights until their demands are met) but imagine what the UFC would have to do to put its shows on. Pull in all these unknown guys from the reserve ranks to appear on cards. PPV income would drop badly.
But think about it. A 4 month work freeze covers about 4 UFC events. And if you get most of the SF guys in as well, that’s a few SF events. Now, if you’re earning $5 per fight, you’re giving up about that much ($5k, assuming 1 fight per 4 months) to take on this negotiation. If you’ve been earning $30k per fight, it hurts more to give it up, but bear in mind, you’ve probably earned about $90k in the last 3 fights so hopefully you have something saved to live on. If the payoff is, for example a doubling in pay, permanently; or even better, guaranteed increases over time; or the holy grail, a fixed percentage of revenue to be distributed to fighters… it’s a huge benefit.
Best of all is if you get all the free agents to sign up as well, so that the pool of replacement fighters is reduced.
The longer the negotiation goes on, the higher the costs to all – so hopefully they will all reach some peaceable agreement within a month or two.
Stars are like senior executives; they earn too much and have too much to lose through union membership. I don’t see them as being necessary to the union movement.
I did misread what you said.
I think you have it backwards. How much does business Strikeforce do with barely 10 fighters in each division? Keep the top 10 and you have a business. You may need to scale back, but people will still watch at a similar rate to keep watching GSP.
More importantly, you’re asking a ton of fighters to give up their income for a long time, most of whom really can’t afford that. Taking 4 months off where you can’t even support yourself enough to cover training costs, and you’re putting your entire career at risk.
It's a problem
But not a new one, nor an unsolvable one.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com and Bloody Elbow Radio
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Apr 26, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Article and . . . great comments.
I iread the article and skimmed through some of the comments. Very interesting ideas.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
The key to fighter unionization is through the fight camps....
…The on-going issue of teammates fighting each other has proven that fight camps DO have some clout. If the large camps got on the same page it would put the UFC in a difficult position. The majority of fighters belong to one of a handful of teams and if they were to band together it would be very powerful.
Xtreme Couture
Jacksons MMA
RoufusSport
American Kickboxing Academy
Black House
Cesar Gracie Fight Team
Golden Glory
Quite a few key guys in the sport fight at those camps. I’m not sure of the logistics but I believe any organized movement working for the fighters would start with the men at the top of those teams.
Interesting and possible, but...
The stars at these gyms have little to gain from a union. It’s the 2nd and 3rd tier that might – particularly the 3rd tier. I’m not sure how many of the 3rd tier guys are at these very strong gyms. I don’t think Randy or GSP or Anderson or Machida would be pushing hard for a union.
That worked out so well when Fitch wanted 10 year video game contracts instead of lifetime
and and the UFC decided to cut every single member of AKA (including TUF1 vet and the last title challenger at 170lbs Josh Koscheck, as well as current heavyweight champion Cain Velasquez) besides Mike “Scab” Swick who quickly called up Zuffa and to tell them “I ain’t with them trouble makers, no way no how!”
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I'm sure there is a way that they could gain.....
Currently they are restricted to what the UFC wants to give them in terms of salary. They make a heck of a lot more than the other fighters, but they are still at the mercy of a single organization.
Interestingly enough I think the top and bottom tiers have the most to complain about. The guys at the top aren’t getting compensated fairly for what they are bringing in (in terms of actual revenue) and the guys at the bottom aren’t getting compensated fairly for the risks that they are taking in fighting. The guys in the middle are actually getting about what they should be.
But the top tier guys are so few and far between, and they ARE making quite a lot compared to everyone else that they’ll never negotiate for more. They’ll just take what they are getting and feel glad that they are where they are.
If they are really into their teammates and they really believe that iron sharpens iron and all that, a fighter camp based union isn’t too far-fetched. All they need is for someone to show them how each tier can gain from it and they’d be in business.
good article and some thoughts
I’d be interested in seeing how faster a fighter can move from each quartile, the rate being how many fights/wins they need to have in order to move up.
The way i see the lower pay scale is almost like a “contract to hire” sort of job. If the rate someone moves from the lowest quartile to the next is within, lets say 2 or 3 wins, then it might be safe to say that the UFC is looking to invest in fighters that have a real shot.
It should probably also noted that once top quartile fighters start to lose, their pay does not decrease in order to keep them on. They retain the pay and either fight back into contention or get cut with no back slide. Probably another technique that the UFC uses to keep new blood moving in and reducing repeat match ups.
Another aspect i don’t see any info about is how much actual UFC employees and executives get paid. Considering the UFC is a private company, exec pay is pretty hidden. However, I’d be interested in if their production and home office staff get paid better than industry average AND what kind of benefits they receive. Hell, it would be interesting to know how much it actually cost to put on a UFC PPV event including marketing, media administration and actual event setup.
“Another aspect i don’t see any info about is how much actual UFC employees and executives get paid. Considering the UFC is a private company, exec pay is pretty hidden. However, I’d be interested in if their production and home office staff get paid better than industry average AND what kind of benefits they receive. Hell, it would be interesting to know how much it actually cost to put on a UFC PPV event including marketing, media administration and actual event setup.”
Yes, I thought about all that stuff, and couldn’t find it (didn’t look terribly hard, but I figured it would be darn near impossible to know exactly what the exec’s get paid annually). And yes, what the UFC nets with different PPV’s would be interesting. I just had the overall company value from the Forbes article…that’s it.
I'm guessing their employees and execs, like the fighters, also earn more than industry average
Employees: Possibly not SO much higher than industry average, since a clerk at UFC might be similar to a clerk at SF or Bellator. Whereas a prospect at UFC may be a significantly better fighter than a prospect at Bellator and therefore deserves significantly higher pay.
Execs: Should be by far the highest in the MMA industry, since they are at the helm of the biggest and most successful MMA promotion.
Why is it we don’t have any industry insiders (e.g. employees of SF or UFC) posting here anonymously with details on this stuff? :) Are there in fact any SF or UFC employees that have ever posted here?
Here are some of my suggestions
1. In order to fight in the UFC you must be a member of one of the certified camps.
2. When you join a certified camp, you are guaranteed a base pay. What the base pay is for each camp could be determined by the number of top 10 fighters currently training at the cap. The better the camp does, the higher the pay for everyone in that camp. This would give the best an incentive to train with the best.
3. All camps would agree to have intra-camp fights. They would be compensated more for them, but they would have to have them. If they didn’t agree, they wouldn’t be allowed to be in the union. The sting of having to fight your teammate would be lessened if they were members of a team that gained from them having to fight.
Everyone wins. The UFC gets the best fights between the best fighters, no questions asked. The fighters get higher individual pay and teams are rewarded for success.
It’s a pretty rough outline but it is something I have been marinating on for awhile. I’m sure I could use a lot more but I think it is a good place to start.
Interesting ideas... some counter arguments you can chew on.
1. This is really hard on the smaller camps who might not be able to get certified, or guys that like to train alone.
2. Who pays the base pay? The UFC not the camp, right? The better the camp, the more money the fighters get… so it seems to me all the top guys would gravitate to one camp (even more than they already do at Jacksons). You’d get stratification – a top tier camp for the top guns in each division; a 2nd tier camp for the next tier of guys… and so on.
3. If, say Jacksons, had a hard rule of no infighting, then what? They wouldn’t be in the union. Then you lose lots of the top guys and start the disintegration of the union – especially if Kos and Fitch also decide they don’t fight in-camp. And Cesar Gracie’s camp…. etc.
1. There are still lots of smaller promotions and regional shows. Smaller camps can send fighters to those shows and you could think of it as minor leagues. Free agents now really have only one option, UFC or bust. This way there could be a bidding war for the services of up and comers, only the camps would be the ones at war.
2. The UFC pays the base pay, not the camp. They could all go to one camp, but they’d have to fight each other, which is clearly distasteful. There could be a salary cap worked into the system which would be easy to hit with a handful of top fighters. Say that the upper limit for base pay comes when you have five top 10 fighters training at the camp. Well almost all the camps that I mentioned meet that criteria, so there would be no extra incentive to train at any one in particular.
3. I’m sure that this whole “I don’t fight teammates” idea won’t hold water if they get a bunch of money and the prestige of the camp is elevated by the fight. For example there could be an end of the year prize for the top camp. When two guys from that camp fight each other, the camp has nothing to lose and everything to gain. The prevailing sentiment from fighters seems to be that in order to be a champion you need a championship level team around you. So reward the championship teams and they will fight each other.
By the way...
…thanks for engaging me on this. I’m just throwing out what comes to mind and I am happy you’ve given me some counter arguments. It has streamlined my idea quite a bit already….

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