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Mark Pavelich Attacks Referee Pay, 'Big' John McCarthy Responds

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The always outspoken MFC promoter Mark Pavelich made a minor splash with his most recent newsletter. In it he claimed that certain referees have become "celebrity referees" who charge upwards of $10,000 to work an event. From the newsletter:

It’s outrageous and absolutely inappropriate. These certain referees are charging anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 just to show up, bark out a catchphrase, and supervise a fight. But these fees aren’t being paid by any commission. They are paid by a show owner or promoter. And quite frankly it’s sad that some promoters feel obliged to pay them and put them front and center on a poster.

Why would they do that? Honestly, for most of them, it’s because they don’t have any talent pool to draw from so the biggest ovation of the night for anybody in the ring is for the referee. That’s a terrible statement for the sport of mixed martial arts. You don’t have much of a show if you’re paying your referee five times what you’re paying the two guys in the main event.

And how can you not call into question the ethics of these referees. Would you not expect their loyalties to be torn when some promoter is willing to pay them 10K, and that same referee is then calling the action when the promoter’s top fighters are in action.

It’s time for the commissions governing MMA to put a pay structure in place for all referees. They would be paid according to their experience, the level of competition they have overseen, and even feedback from notable fighters and insiders. There are a number of very good referees out there, including those that have worked recent MFC events. But even they shouldn’t be allowed to just toss out a price tag, or have a commission toss out one for them. There should be a pay scale in place – here’s what you get paid (plus reasonable expenses) … take it or leave it.

First of all, if a promoter is willing to pay a referee $10,000 to work an event, I'm not sure why that should be held against the referee. But, getting beyond that, my immediate reaction upon reading this was that there was clearly some sort of political motivation to the e-mail.

"Big" John McCarthy hit up The Underground (HT: Gal's Guide to MMA) to clear up some of the confusion:

I was told by a friend about this post so I looked it up and see that there needs to be some clarity and truth added to it. This whole thing stems from a letter written by Dale Kliparchuk and Brian Beauchamp back in the beginning of March trying to show that Beauchamp should be working at the UFC in Toronto. Dale use to run the commission at River Cree where Pavelich ran a majority of his MFC shows. Dale has recently been removed from his position and is no longer part of any commission. Brian attempted to have many MMA news and media people publish his letter saying that Ken Hayashi of the Ontario Commission was forcing promoters to use referees from outside of his province and that those referees were charging the promoters whatever they wanted. Part of the statement was true and part was false. Key Hayashi and his commission are new to MMA and he decided to use officials that have years of experience refereeing for the first few shows in Ontario so there would be less chance of anything going wrong and giving someone a chance to complain about MMA in Ontario instead of putting young inexperienced officials into pressure situations and possibly having a problem. So yes Mr. Hayashi decided to use referees like Dan Mirigalotta, Herb Dean, Josh Rosenthal and I from the U.S. and Yves Lavigne and Jerin Valel from Canada. All of these referees are making whatever the commission pays for the event, because it is the commission that is assigning the referee to the show. Ken has several people that I have personally instructed ready and willing to step in and begin refereeing and judging in the province, but he first wanted to ease them in slowly, so he has assigned them to the shows as inspectors and other commission assignments getting them use to being part of a team and understanding all of the elements associated with the sport and putting on a successful MMA show.

Brian Beauchamp is trying to tell people that he is the most experienced referee in Canada, or possibly second behind Yves Lavigne. It is totally false since Brian has refereed for approximately 2 to 3 years. There are many referees in Canada that have much more experience than Brian, but if you tell people a lie long enough they start to believe it. Referees like Vern Gorman, John Braak, Elvis Lyon, Tony Williamson, Jerin Valel, Adam Cheadle and Kevin Dornan could easily say they have much more experience then Brian, and none of them would be lying.

As far as "Celebrity Referees," that is a line used by Dale and Brian in their letter and now they have talked Mark Pavelich into using the same line. I have worked one MFC show and was not paid by Pavelich for working the show. I was paid by the Enoch Nation which owns River Cree. If I have a promoter contact me about working their show it is my right to ask for whatever fee I feel is fair. Most of the time that promoter is using my name to help promote their show and I should be compensated for that because it goes beyond the normal scope of the job. Now they are using you to help possibly sell tickets. If a commission contacts me and asks me to work a show for them I accept whatever fee the commission pays. Have I ever made $10,000 to work a show, No. I have made different amounts of money throughout my career. Last night I worked a show and made $280 for the night. This entire thing is about Brian being a person that wants to be a referee in the UFC. Someday he may attain that goal, but he is not close to being ready yet. although he believes he is.

Mark Pavelich does not ever have to pay for a referee or official other than one assigned by an athletic commission at the rate that the commission pays their officials. All commissions are different, but if Mark wants to have a Herb Dean, Dan Miragilotta or John McCarthy work his event at his request, then they should be able to say how much their services are worth. If he does not like the price then he does not have to hire them, because nobody is forcing him to. Hope you appreciate the truth. I do not hide behind screen names you know who I am. I wish this could be said of everyone.

Emphasis mine.

But basically the takeaway here is that the commission will assign your referees for an event. If you want to have an established referee with a good amount of name value that was not assigned by the commission then that referee has the right to ask for whatever amount they see fit. There is obviously a reason that you are requesting them to work your event be it name value, experience level or whatever. The reason you're requesting this referee is because he provides your show with a benefit. If you don't want to pay a "celebrity referee" then don't request one. Maybe the commission assigns one to your event, maybe they don't.

But for Pavelich to act as though there isn't already a pay structure in place and try to throw referees like Herb Dean or John McCarthy under the bus for (what seems to be) Brian Beauchamp's agenda is pretty embarrassing.

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Not only embarassing but stupid as well.

There’s a commission, a pay structure and a proper way of doing things. If you want to use the referee outside of the commission’s scope or duties well its a private hiring and you should pay what the talent, ie the referee, is worth.

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by dandeman on Apr 19, 2011 1:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Ever see an MFC show?

they just started using cages, lol.

Get with the program, guys!

by wrxdonkey on Apr 19, 2011 1:06 PM EDT reply actions  

???? What does that say abou their show?
They put on a decent product.

I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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by VeeisAnimated on Apr 19, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

This whole thing...

Still feels like a giant conflict of interest to me.

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by Leland Roling on Apr 19, 2011 1:06 PM EDT reply actions  

In what way?

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know. I don’t like the fact that they are bringing in referees and paying them privately. It makes me feel like a promotion could influence a referee. Maybe not a guy like McCarthy, but you never know.

I suppose the same could happen now with commissioned judges, but that’s barking up a tree that leads to the government.

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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Apr 19, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s a catch 22 in the case BJM’s referencing. Inexperienced refs or payment for experienced out of area ones. I really don’t think he’s on point with the “they use us to draw a crowd” BS. Only at the smallest of shows would people actually buy a ticket to see the referee, even if it’s Herb Dean or BJM.

And Pavelich’s political stances seem to be ill-timed and not very well thought out.

Still a Beer Monster.

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

The whole “drawing power” argument is absurd. Nobody cares.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Apr 19, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ehhh…I’ve been at shows where people showed up to get autographs from refs or guys who weren’t even fighting. If you have a name at all…there’s someone who will come to see you

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

It’s certainly doesn’t put him at any major level in terms of drawing card though. Higher compensation for his “name” is kind of dumb to me, because it doesn’t “go beyond the normal scope of the job”. He’s still there to ref, and that’s it.

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I was dicking around...

At an MMA show and I saw BJM hanging around, I’d shake the dude’s hang and say hi.

But I wouldn’t look at an event’s card and think, “Eh, I dunno if I’m gonna… wait, Big John is gonna be there? PUT ME DOWN FOR TWO!”

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by Sergio Hernandez on Apr 19, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some people would, though.

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by Jackie Maden on Apr 19, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sure some...

Would which is just… I dunno, weird to me.

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by Sergio Hernandez on Apr 19, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've seen posters from smaller shows advertising Big John right next to the fighters...

I feel he deserves to be paid an appearance fee beyond his standard commission dues in that event.

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by Snatchl on Apr 19, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed. If the promotion...

Is hyping up the fact that he will be there, he can charge as much as he wants.

That being said, and not to accuse BJM of anything, it can present a conflict on interest.

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by Sergio Hernandez on Apr 19, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just assuming that his appearance fee is for him to stick around and sign autographs after the show, etc.

Pay for the actual job of refereeing a fight should be flat rate. I’d imagine the ref crew of 3-4 people has 3-4 bouts per card they need to do.

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
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by Snatchl on Apr 19, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s what I’m sayin. Thank you.

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but you’re not an idiot. I’ve been to small shows before and signed autographs for people who had no clue who I was just because the promoter announced during the show that I was there in an effort to make it look like the “media” were covering his event.

I’ve been to small shows where an entire section of people bought tickets because the promoter promised “a UFC star” to be there..etc.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I’m not saying that to seem important. It was bizarre. I had a weird lady with no front teeth go “you writin for a big website? lemmie get yer autograph” and a few others follow her because once a crowd sees someone get an autograph from someone they assume they should too.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

The first is an example of people already at the show though (and it’s super funny too). The second is a reference to a real draw, a fighter. If they said “a UFC referee is gonna be here!” you think they’d still buy?

Like you’re saying though, there are a lot of dumb people out there. But does that give BJM the right to ask for more cash?

Still a Beer Monster.

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s got 100 times more experience and knowledge than the average ref.

"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."

by TheFilt on Apr 19, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

What does that have to do with anything I’ve talked about here?

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only read that one post

Context.

I don’t has it.

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by TheFilt on Apr 19, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

The second is a reference to a real draw, a fighter.

I don’t know man. I suspect Big John is more recognizable than most fighters on a UFC undercard or on a local show.

by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 19, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that’s the thing. The “ufc stars” that usually show up when their name isn’t attached to an event and it’s just promoted AS “a UFC star” is usually some 0-1 bum.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meh, fair enough.

Still a Beer Monster.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

But does that give BJM the right to ask for more cash?

If he was not assigned by the commission and the promotion is contacting him saying they want him? Kind of. The promotion obviously sees some sort of benefit to having him rather than the commission assigned ref. So why should he not benefit if the promotion is benefiting? They don’t HAVE to use him.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Like you’re saying though, there are a lot of dumb people out there. But does that give BJM the right to ask for more cash?

Absolutely, whatever the market will bear.

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.

by The American Ronin on Apr 19, 2011 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Might be...

The nicest thing ever said about me on BE.

Yeah, but you’re not an idiot.

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by Sergio Hernandez on Apr 19, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually looked up to see if he said it about me because I was about to say the exact thing you just did. But it wasn’t. Hmpf.

Still a Beer Monster.

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha, I did...

The same thing!

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by Sergio Hernandez on Apr 19, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

WAIT...

Just Bleed Guy is there? HOLY SHIT! I’m there!

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
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by Leland Roling on Apr 19, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Not only that but it lends an air of additional legitimacy, standing above other local fights.

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.

by The American Ronin on Apr 19, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I care.

I remember when i saw my first WEC show on versus, wondering who the heck these referees were. Now i see Josh Rosenthal refereeing, and i think “ok, this match is going to be ref’d well”. If i’m watching some random event from iowa with refs i’ve never seen, it feels very, very podunk.

of course, the random event in iowa IS podunk. and there’s nothing wrong with that.

however, production values lead to comfort in the audience. recognized referees lead to comfort in the audience.

i’m not explaining my position well, but honestly i’m completely baffled that someone would take the stance of “noone cares who the referees are”.

by arkabee on Apr 19, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

That’s a completely different statement. “no one cares who the referees are” and “the referees can draw a house” are not the same.

Still a Beer Monster.

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, having a BJM or Herb Dean referee at your event brings an apparence of being a legit promotion on its way up…

by Shnak on Apr 19, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Maybe to the general public, but to people that are going to local shows? They’re usually there for the fighters, because that’s usually who they bought the tickets off. If BJM is out selling tickets, okay. i mean, Herb Dean refs midget wrestling.

Still a Beer Monster.

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

check that, midget MMA. Sorry, just saw Hulk Hogan’s Micro wrestling thing and was off on a tangent.

Still a Beer Monster.

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand that. But if someone’s flipping the channels and stumbles upon a little MMA org show and sees Big John refereeing, they might pause for a second and wonder what’s this promotion, etc.

by Shnak on Apr 19, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

That little MMA org isn’t likely to be on TV in the first place dude.

Still a Beer Monster.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, the Fight Network here in Canada shows events such as Bamma, and had the undercard to Ringside 10 last weekend… if I’m a casual fight fan who happens to have Fight Network and I’m flipping thru channels, if I recognize the referee, I might be inclined to think that it’s a big-name promotion.

by Shnak on Apr 19, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m in Canada dude, I get it too. : ) I see what you’re saying. But do you think that just the ref is going to get them to buy a ticket to the next show? Or would it actually be from watching the fighters or having some emotional investment in the product? I’m just saying the stones it takes for a guy like BJM to ask for more cash because he’s a “draw” seems a bit much for me.

Still a Beer Monster.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you were a 'name' draw...

and someone went out of their way to ask you to work for them, wouldn’t you want to be compensated for doing something that you don’t really have to? I’m not saying that it’s right or wrong for the refs to do this, just looking at it from a different perspective.

And yes, I totally see where this could be a conflict of interest. If a promoter is willing to pay for a specific ref to add weight to an event, it’s not unreasonable to think that it would be possible for them to slip in a little extra for a certain fighter to win. And if a ref is willing to take extra money for his name, it’s easy to think he might take the extra money for – other things.

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by Jackie Maden on Apr 19, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m saying he deserves to be compensated to ref. And while I normally have no problem with people monetizing their name value…I just think it’s ridiculous and pompous for him to think he’s actually a draw. At all.

And I do get the conflict of interest. But it’s always going to be something to contend with when there’s no commission overseeing events.

Still a Beer Monster.

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just think it’s ridiculous and pompous for him to think he’s actually a draw. At all.

That’s not for you to determine. That’s for the event in question to figure out and to see if they are willing to pay the premium for it if they think he is.

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by Chris Barton on Apr 19, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I agree with that. But he’s the one saying it about himself. I think that’s a tad arrogant, whether it’s true or not.

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by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I get ya but if they put his name or image in the fight poster which, insanely does happen, I can see why he thinks he must be viewed as a draw.

Granted… I have no clue why he would be and it’s weird.

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"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
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by Chris Barton on Apr 19, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s not for you to determine. That’s for the event in question to figure out and to see if they are willing to pay the premium for it if they think he is.

And obviously some of them see the value in it, or they wouldn’t do it.

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.

by The American Ronin on Apr 19, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Never said he’s a draw. All I’m saying is that he’s a recognized face that MIGHT be lending some credibility to an org. That has SOME value. That’s all I’m saying.

by Shnak on Apr 19, 2011 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough.

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http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I completely agree.

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.

by The American Ronin on Apr 19, 2011 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

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by Derek Suboticki on Apr 19, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Smells like it, and looks like it

mmm… I don’t say it is but why would you do that if you have a governing body that can supply you with referees probably way cheaper?

by Coeman on Apr 19, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've talked with Brian before

I can’t speak to this beef and I don’t claim to know either man personally. But Brian was always cool to me. So was John McCarthy. Weird to see them like this.

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by Luke Thomas on Apr 19, 2011 1:09 PM EDT reply actions  

If it is the same Brian as I think it is...

http://www.kombatarts.com/Student/BrianBeauchamp/index.html

I bumped into him a half dozen times on the judo mats a few years ago. Nice guy, good judo. But he did think very highly of himself. He also injured a couple of people, including a lower belt kid, by going all out and not considering his training partner’s abilities. I wasn’t impressed.

by Scootah on Apr 19, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is he related to Shamrock or Lombard perhaps?

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.

by The American Ronin on Apr 19, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he’s getting paid by the promoter in a case where he wasn’t assigned to work their event. So he wouldn’t have been getting paid by the commission anyway. But he’d still have to be approved by the commission. It’s pretty conflict of interest-y, I’ll admit but still…

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

If a promoter is paying you a premium to appear, I’ll bet that crosses your mind when making important decisions.

by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 19, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't this true in many other sports?

People always have conspiracy theories about how refs in the NBA skew calls for big stars and big market teams.

by Pantherhare on Apr 19, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that is true. Now imagine how it would look if the NBA just so happened to book their “best refs” and pay them 10x-100x the going rate for their services for those games.

by VirtualBalboa on Apr 19, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point was the "promotion" pays for the refs

In basketball, the “promotion” is the NBA and they pay the refs, not some commission. They also pay their refs pretty well. Conspiracy theories and the usual ref bashing aside, there doesn’t seem to be much grousing about conflicts of interest there or in the NFL.

by Pantherhare on Apr 19, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

The NBA though is a very different sort of being than the UFC. The UFC is owned by a couple guys and micromanaged largely by one man. The NBA is “owned” by every owner in the league.

by VirtualBalboa on Apr 19, 2011 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes but the UFC doesn't have an incentive to have one guy in particular win

Dana White is never going to do that. Say what you want about him but he will never rig a fight. He’s too passionate about the sport.

by rainmaker6 on Apr 19, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a lifelong basketball and NBA fan

There is definitely bias or serious inconsistency in many NBA games.

"Run and tweet THAT, homeboy."

by TheFilt on Apr 19, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

It has to

Why else would they pay the premium?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Apr 19, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

To show up in advance, sign posters and programs, do meet and greets...

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by pdl on Apr 19, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s a really crappy precedent to set. Referees are employees of the AC.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Apr 19, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except when they are famous and do promotional work

that benefits the shows. So ban refs from doing any appearances or promotional work and ban the promoter from using their name and likeness in any sort of marketing materials.

The other thing to consider is that cutmen have sponsors now. Maybe Stitch Duran will be just a little bit more attentive working with fellow One More Round stablemates like Florian and Hughes were. Not making any accusations and I’m just pulling names out of my ass so don’t focus on the example, but it’s worth noting. Maybe some writer person could do a running segment on the multiple ways conflict of interests show up in MMA?

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by pdl on Apr 19, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’d have to be a pretty good writer…

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com and Bloody Elbow Radio
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Apr 19, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

The “promoter” (the league) pays all of the refs in pro and college ball sports.

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.

by The American Ronin on Apr 19, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aside from MLS (and really, them too) every stick and ball league of note is a cooperative effort of all the owners together. The UFC is not that.

by VirtualBalboa on Apr 19, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

The professional leagues are essentially cartels (the teams), but that is not relevant for this discussion. As with the UFC the league office hires, pays and supervises the officials, although in the UFC’s case it would only involve areas where there is not an AC to handle the ref issue.

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.

by The American Ronin on Apr 19, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course it is relevant. The participants in any NBA game are equally represented as far as portion of ownership of the league goes. In the vast majority of MMA bouts, the participants in no way have a direct financial hand in the promotion of the event. They may receive portions of PPV buys or live gate or what have you, but they don’t own the promotion itself.

by VirtualBalboa on Apr 19, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

As are the fighters in MMA. The situations are functionally identical.

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.

by The American Ronin on Apr 20, 2011 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wow… I don’t agree with Snowden much, but this was my point above. It sounds like a conflict of interest big time to me.

What’s to stop a tandem of judges from promoting themselves and be bought by promotions? “Hire us, we won’t fuck shit like Chuck Wolfe!”. They can get a raving endorsement from Chael Sonnen and a small video on Youtube promoting themselves.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Apr 19, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s probably a fair point. It didn’t really cross my mind, but it’s a fair point.

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because….who’s going to pay them? A few smaller promotions? Why would you do something so brash and publicized and ruin your reputation with your REAL employer, then one that gives you the overwhelming majority of your work? The commissions. The 10k thing has already been blown up. How much money is there really in this idea? If it were true, would BJM be subsidizing his income with COMMAND courses to create competition for himself?

Still a Beer Monster.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m just brainstorming here, not drawing a conclusion. Just asking questions.

Still a Beer Monster.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because promotions like the UFC are tired of the commissions. If you could actually prove you were objective and unbiased and VERY GOOD at judging fights, what would stop a promotion from using you consistently? Nothing.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Apr 19, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

They might be tired of the commissions, but they know they can’t just ignore them or walk around them. They promote in commission-less places, what, 4 times a year?

Still a Beer Monster.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can answer all of these. First, the $10K thing hasn’t been blown up. These refs are just demanding that names be put out. If Pavelich puts out names, he has to back it up with facts that he may not have for a variety of reasons, possibly in court. Second, if you make $5K in a night, that doesn’t mean you quit your day job, especially if those payouts are only occasional. Would you quit your current job or close a business because you made an extra 20G a year reffing? Finally – if any ref has been paid $10K to ref a fight card, they likely made more that night than they did the rest of the year combined (not including hotels and per diems).

by VirtualBalboa on Apr 19, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

BJM himself said he’s never made 10k to ref a fight. That’s blowing it up to me. BJM refs a lot more than 4 times a year, he says that himself. And you didn’t touch the commission question, or discuss Leland’s proposition.

Still a Beer Monster.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe a promoter spent $10K in hotel/airfare/appearance fee/“ref fee”/per diems. I wouldn’t be shocked if something like the Abu Dhabi promotion that booked in big names had thrown money around like that. Or for that matter, if Affliction had. Or BJM could be lying. Its not like he’s gonna put how much he’s made for those sort of events out in the public space, will he?

There is very little money in reffing from the commissions. There is a lot of money in reffing if someone pays you a large appearance fee. Its why boxing refs love to get in with sanctioning bodies because a chunk of the sanctioning fee goes in their pocket.

by VirtualBalboa on Apr 19, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I may be missing something

But did the discussion go from refs to judges?

by Pantherhare on Apr 19, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

But all it takes is for a whiff on impropriety and they become persona non grata, at least in the big leagues. I don’t doubt that there are attempts at corruption, and probably successful ones, but this is not how they would do it.

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.

by The American Ronin on Apr 19, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

This^

I don’t think its a good idea for anyone but the AC to pay the ref. It just doesn’t look or smell very good. Its a recipe for disaster if you ask me. Alot of people(me included) seem to think we known these guys personally like we know for sure that BJM or Herb wouldn’t take money to call a fight a certain way. I’m not saying they have or would but we don’t know there morals or character or even there private situations. We just can’t say what any of these guys would do if a offer was out there. Thats why I think it’s best to take away the possibility of it.

" Its like when I'm right I'm right, when I'm wrong I coulda been right, so I'm still right cause I coulda been wrong, you know, and I'm sorry cause I could be wrong right now, I could be wrong, but I'm right..." Bama

by 40 Cal. on Apr 19, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

There doesn’t have to be an explicit arrangement to favor a certain fighter. Not all official bias is intentional. You’re a ref, the promoter gives you $5k, you know who the local fighters are, this might affect your judgment just enough to shift the fight toward the local guy.

by Finian1 on Apr 19, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would the promoter

even bother of getting other referees than what the commission assigned to him? I don’t get it, star power what is it?

by Coeman on Apr 19, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

FWIW, that is my takeaway as well. They are brought in essentially as “celebrity refs”, where the promoter obviously sees value in doing so.

I certainly don’t harbor any illusions that refs in any sport are immune from corruption, but I don’t think this is the case here.

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.

by The American Ronin on Apr 19, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Think BJM

has referee trading cards he keeps in a old shoe box?

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by ultmma on Apr 19, 2011 1:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Short and sweet: Paying for referees is something that sorta happens in boxing with world title bouts due to the need for sanctioned refs that come in for particular sanctioning bodies. Its not a coincidence when you see a WBO title fight that the ref’s shirt has the WBO logo on it. In that sense, promoters that effectively run their own sanctioning body and title fights are bypassing an independent body to hire these guys directly. Fine and dandy, but it means that “celebrity referees” are basically charging to perform services (and thus get paid to work) at the direct behest of promoters. If you don’t see how that loophole is a bad thing, its because you’re blind.

by VirtualBalboa on Apr 19, 2011 1:19 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

What about situations where there is not an AC involved (or they don’t provide them) does not the promoter pay for the ref anyway then?

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
Death before dishonor, drinks before lunch.

by The American Ronin on Apr 19, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess in that case it's a necessary evil

But if the referee can be assigned and paid by an impartial body, then that’s who the promotion should use, in my opinion.

"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna

by VenusBlue on Apr 20, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Having Big John or Herb Dean officiate gives a small promotion a legitimate feeling

Seriously, if you were watching any rinky dink promotion but they had Big John or Herb Dean in there you would definitely have a higher opinion of them.

Or you can get that guy who reffed Jardine/Mousasi…

by Hashmo on Apr 19, 2011 1:20 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

The stashe.

It’s worth it.

"I am going to punch faces." --Wanderlei Silva
War Miller Bros.

by Jay Bittner on Apr 19, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yupp.

"For your information, I would like to ask a question."
-Samuel Goldwyn

by fedorade on Apr 19, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe this would work ...

Instead of the promoter paying the ref, the promoter could tell the commission, “Hey, I’d like to bring in some experienced referees like Big John or Herb Dean. Can I pay extra so you can hire them and pay for their travel?”

Luke, how did it work when Big John worked for UWC? (And the poor guy had to deal with a fight in which the lights went out just as a guy was about to tap. And the Beebe-Easton decision.)

by Beau Dure on Apr 19, 2011 1:50 PM EDT reply actions  

I was thinking about that. Offer a “top level” option which is a flat fee to get the “name” refs. You may still get them if you don’t pay the fee, depending on schedules..etc. But if you want to make sure you pay the extra. That way it still flows through the commission..etc

Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't this happening in

countries that do not have a commission?

by Coeman on Apr 19, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then the promoter shouldn't be allowed to use the ref's name or likeness in the promotional materials

as well as there being a ban on signings and appearances beyond the locker room and referee duties.

Pavelich wants big names but doesn’t want to pay them. It’s fine if he wants to go make a passive aggressive news story out of it, but the truth is that some of these guys are more than just officials and add value to a show. If they aren’t assigned by the commission and you still want them more than the other guys then there’s obviously additional value. It’s not like Big John is a faceless figure, he has a fucking action figure for sale in Toys R Us.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Apr 19, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have an action figure too. Whats your point?

Still a Beer Monster.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Link to the official Beer Monster merch mug please?

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Apr 19, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just so happen to have a few left in stock.

Link (yes, it’s real)

Still a Beer Monster.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nothing Pavelich

does surprises me.

Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M

"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate

by Chris Barton on Apr 19, 2011 2:36 PM EDT reply actions  

I'll just copy/paste what I mentioned on Mania

Nice to see that Brent and most of the commenters actually seem to have read the whole post, which is something it seems that Mania didn’t.

The Athletic Commissions, including the ones they have up in Canada, 3rd world country that it is, I know, hire the refs at a standard rate. You get whoever you get and are happy that they are capable and trustworthy that the Comm has them as part of their corps. You might get John, Dean, Yves, etc. or you might get Tan Dan, but the AC pays them and charges the promoter that as part of their cost. If you want to go outside the commission and hire your own ref, they are free to charge whatever the market will bear. You don’t like their rates? Don’t hire them. Promoters have put BJM on posters before and he is perfectly within his rights to ask for whatever he feels like. That’s what a free market is.

http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/

by Cory Braiterman on Apr 19, 2011 2:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Fair enough. That’s sad (the poster I mean), but fair enough.

Still a Beer Monster.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ya doesn't look good,

McCorkle when he was a UFC star that’s sad too.

by Coeman on Apr 19, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

You mean they had a bigger photo of Big John than “Kyacee” Uscola?

Uscola lost that fight by “shoulder choke,” by the way. Brammer also lost. But Henle and Melendez repped TUF.

by Beau Dure on Apr 19, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comic fucking Sans?!

"Ellismania is, along with the black President, a symbol of the future." - Mayhem Miller
Tweeter!

by alicks on Apr 19, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

L O fucking L!

haha yep that’s Comic Sans alright! Ah man I remember bacj in some of my graphics classes this one chick completely HATED Comic Sans. I just figured that it had it’s purposes, so I was like whatever. I also had a professor that fucking LOVED Helvetica so…

Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!

by SentientAndroid on Apr 19, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

*back

Anderson Silva, Edson Barboza, Jose Aldo, Charles Oliveira, Thiago Alves = Muay Thai wrecking machines!

by SentientAndroid on Apr 19, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yves Lavigne / Mark Pavelich

Mark,

Can you please list the name of referee that you made reference to as a ‘celebrity referees’

Can you please list the name of athletics commissions that tried to force you to pay 5 to 10k for a specific referee.

Thanks

Yves Lavigne

Maybe is just a coincidence but I saw the letter from Brian Beauchamp and Dale Dale Kliparchuk and it does use the same catchy phrase making reference to celebrity referee and covering the same subject as referee fees.

Yves,
 
 I have no idea about any letter from Brian Beauchamp and Dale Kliparchuk and I have zero affiliation with either one of them. You also have seen over the years that I have never made criticisms on MMA officiating or on any officials unlike other major MMA organization promoters that openly do it on Video Blogs. I have always had a great deal of respect for officials and the rules, let’s not forget that my father Matt Pavelich was an NHL Hockey Hall of Fame Official for 30 years. I have always thought that Officials should always and only be paid by the Commissions and should be paid according to the fees mandated by that Commission. Not by Casino’s or by promoters. What was written is my point of view from someone that has been in this business from the beginning, you don’t have to agree or disagree, it’s not a press release, it’s an article that as my dear friend Mr. Black stated it raises questions and debates. That’s it.
 
On a side note: I can’t express how impressed I was at Caesars Windsor by you’re performance along with Josh Rosenthal and Jerin Valel . I noticed on a few occasions that all of you had to do a ton of multi tasking and once again, great job and much respect.
 
Sincerely,
 
Mark Pavelich MFC

http://tini.cc - Simple & Fast URL Shortener
http://www.mmalegions.com/ - MMA Betting

by zzwab on Apr 19, 2011 2:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Pavelich using you’re instead of your made my day.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Apr 19, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

Pavelich has zero affiliation to Dale Kliparchuk? The same Dale Kliparchuk that was one of two guys that made up the River Cree Combative Sports Commission? Where MFC has run almost every one of their events? Hmmmmmm…..

Still a Beer Monster.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Apr 19, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Referees getting 10k?

GOOD. A good ref in MMA is more important than in boxing, hockey, football, basketball, or any other sport. A ref in MMA determines the difference between a man living and dying. Ain’t no 10-count when a fighter goes down. If I get KO’d? I want a professional getting paid well who has experience and is ready to dive across my prone body to save my brain from further damage, not some scrub BJJ whitebelt from the local gym getting paid $20 to tap my opponent lightly on the shoulder and say “stop” and hope that’s enough.

by gzl5000 on Apr 19, 2011 3:10 PM EDT reply actions  

I think you've missed the point entirely

Its not the amount (and no ref is getting 10K anyway), it’s where the money is coming from that’s potentially a problem.

"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna

by VenusBlue on Apr 20, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

They don't add "celebrity" to shows, they add Legitimacy

If I was thinking about going to a Kaged Khaos MMA event in some random town, I would not expect to see the most experienced and skilled fighters, but if I see that they have a referee who has been on the big stage before, I can assume this promotion at least takes itself seriously enough and the fights might be worth checking out.

I am not going to see the fights in order to get a ref’s signature, but the legitimacy added with the ref’s name might push me over the edge to go buy a ticket.

by Chaverick on Apr 19, 2011 4:05 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't like the idea of refs getting paid by the promotion.

Yeah, the commision pays them, but they can be requested and paid a premium? That’s messed up. Total conflict, IMO. Imagine if back in the day, Dana paid Big John a premium to ref a match that Chuck Liddell was in? If John reffed it to Dana’s liking, then he gets brought back on again. And so on. You see where this leads.

by pud333 on Apr 19, 2011 5:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Boy, talk about conflicts of interest

They would be paid according to their experience, the level of competition they have overseen, and even feedback from notable fighters and insiders.

If you’re really concerned about referees’ torn loyalties, doesn’t it seem like having their pay directly tied to how much “notable fighters” like their work sound like a remarkably bad idea? Because the only people with a bigger stake in making sure that notable fighters come out on top over lesser draws are: notable fighters.

This comment is intended for entertainment purposes only. Any resemblence to the actual truth is entirely coincidental.

by JoshSBooks on Apr 19, 2011 7:11 PM EDT reply actions  

why the hate?

If a ref wants to charge a fee and the promoter pays it then who cares. Good on him for getting paid.

To say it would influence a fight is BS. They are still going to be under scrutiny and if they do a terrible job or favor a certain fighter, then they won’t be able to work the next week and the week after and the week after etc. I doubt these ‘recognizable’ refs are going to jeopardize their careers for one good earn.

by vicesquad26 on Apr 20, 2011 2:00 AM EDT reply actions  

What sport are you watching?

Yves Lavigne was still reffing after the Pete Sell-Matt Brown fight. The guy who let Nate Diaz strangle Marcus Davis (was that Mario, I can’t remember) is still going. Chuck Wolfe will probably be judging the next card in Arizona. Cecil Peoples is everywhere still. The idea that an official in MMA is going to be held accountable for their actions is laughable in almost every jurisdiction.

"With gold thou boughtest Gýmir's daughter,
and so gavest away thy sword:
but when Muspell's sons through the dark forest ride,
thou, unhappy, wilt not have wherewith to fight."
~ Lokasenna

by VenusBlue on Apr 20, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

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