Research Challenge: Distribution of Win% Across Reach Differences

Promoted by Mike Fagan.
Here's your winner of the inaugural FightMetric Research Challenge. Congratulations to PistonHyundai. Additional congratulations go out to everyone who participated. Rami and I are both very happy with the turnout, though that's to be expected with the Bloody Elbow community.
What's next? We're looking for another question for the community to answer in April. What do you want to see? Leave your suggestions in the comments.
Ok, here goes nothing.
So far, there's been some great legwork done on the correlation between reach advantage and fight results. Here's a brief recap before I introduce my analysis:
Sample |
w/ Reach Advantage | ||
| Wins | Losses | Win% | |
| Depth Level 1 | |||
|---|---|---|---|
| All Fights | 687 | 638 | 51.8% |
| Depth Level 2 | |||
| Decisions | 231 | 265 | 46.6% |
| Finishes | 456 | 373 | 55.0% |
| Depth Level 3 | |||
| (T)KOs | 253 | 199 | 56.0% |
| Subs | 203 | 174 | 53.8% |
When you consider MMA's dynamism as a sport, and facts like 1.) submission victories not necessarily resulting from ground-heavy fights and 2.) knockouts not being exclusive to stand-up wars, it's reasonable to say that these figures do indeed suggest an advantage for rangier fighters. At the very least, the results merit a closer look.
I feel that it would be very useful to examine the distribution of win percentages across the spectrum of reach differences. A direct relationship between win rate and the amount of reach "advantage" would lend more credibility to the idea of reach as a literal advantage. An inverse relationship would obviously suggest the opposite, although it would still highlight reach as a (weird) influence on fight results. An undecipherable cluster of data points would damage the reach advantage theory. Accordingly, I've prepared a series of histograms to explore the possibilities of such relationships.
How to Read These Graphs (Important)
It's no lie: these graphs are a little clunky. But I couldn't think of a better way to express the necessary data, and I promise that just a bit of explanation will make things significantly clearer:
- The X axis tracks the difference in inches between the fighters' reach. "1" includes all differences greater than 0 and equal to 1, etc.
- The last X value includes all reach differences greater than 8 inches because beyond that, there just weren't enough fights per inch to generate defensible percentages.
- The Y axis only pertains to the orange/red longer reach win% bars. The blue bars represent the total number of fights featuring each respective reach difference, and are only meant to convey the relative amounts of data that were available for calculating the percentages.
Let's jump right in with the graph for the whole population.
| DEPTH LEVEL 1 |
|---|
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First things first: the most obvious trend is portrayed by the blue bars. To wit, as the reach difference increases, the number of fights in the data pool consistently decreases. This is a natural result of weight class stratification and probably matchmakers' preference for pairing similarly-sized fighters within those classes. 331 fights commenced with a 1 inch or shorter difference, while only 20 fights represent freakish differences of 8 or more inches. The important thing to take away is that shorter blue bars indicate less reliable orange/red win% bars.
Speaking of win%, a direct relationship is clearly delineated here. On the side of the histogram with the most data, win% increases steadily along with reach difference. Even in the less populated categories that happen to buck the trend, win% still breaks the halfway rate in favor of rangier fighters. Looks like there's something to this "reach" business. Now, let's break it down further to isolate decisions from finishes.
| DEPTH LEVEL 2 |
|---|
![]() |
![]() |
The Decisions histogram effectively demonstrates the potential buckshot I mentioned earlier, but there's still an important relationship to point out: looking back at the raw percentages, fights ending by judges' decision least correlated with reach advantage. Being that this is the only examined sample to favor fighters with shorter reach, combined with its sporadic win% distribution, it seems likely that over the course of a complete sanctioned MMA bout (with more time for each fighter to execute a variety of skills), reach just loses influence.
On the other hand, finishes appear to correspond to reach advantage quite favorably. Observe the consistent increase between and including the 2 and 5 inch categories, and the overall direct relationship, despite slight anomalies in underrepresented reach differences. This appears to be where reach truly matters.
One last sample division drills the point even further: (T)KOs vs. Submissions.
| DEPTH LEVEL 3 |
|---|
![]() |
![]() |
The graphs support the commonly accepted notion that a reach advantage is most heavily favored during striking portions of a bout. Longer-limbed fighters boast more than 70% of the knockout victories in three of the reach difference categories (with, yet again, a direct relationship between percentage and size difference). Submission rates are less linear throughout the spectrum, but still express an overall upward trend. Purely speculating, this may be reflective of long arms and legs being as vulnerable in certain grappling positions as they are threatening in others.
I'll bring it home with one final diagram. Observe the linear regressions of all five samples:
| LINEAR REGRESSIONS |
|---|
![]() |
These are the "best fit" or "trending" lines of all the preceding data. Lines that are higher and steeper express stronger positive correlations between reach advantage/difference and win rate. Predictably, (T)KO win% combines the highest Y values with the most dramatic slope. Likewise, Decision win% offers the lowest Y values, but in spite of its wildly distributed data points, it still betrays an upward trajectory over the 9 measurements of reach difference. The fact that all five lines possess positive slopes and most of them cross the 50% mark within the leftmost quadrant indicates not only a direct relationship between reach advantage and rate of victory, but also a supporting relationship between the amount of reach advantage and rate of victory.
Reach matters.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Comments
Stats Beast!
When I read about the contest, I thought you might take a pass at it. Seemed right up your alley. Anyway, awesome work, man!
"You son of a bitch, give me my plunger back."
- welterweight contender Josh Koscheck
Thanks man!
The support is much appreciated.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 9, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Words have never given me an erection before
You took MMA and statistics, my two favourite things, and have achieved the impossible
I give you a standing ovation
lol
You’re too kind, sir. Now get that thing away from me.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 15, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
This is interesting, but these graphs do not establish anything causal about a reach advantage leading to an increased rate of victory. All this analysis does is simply identify a correlation between having a reach advantage and winning, we say that having a reach advantage is affecting the outcome of fights.
by The Effecient Secret on Mar 9, 2011 3:32 PM EST reply actions
What you're saying is correct
and I know that many of our more statistically-gifted community members will make similar observations, but what you have to understand is this: everyone here was posed a simple question, and provided access to a clearly defined well of information from which to draw. Most of the participants in this challenge, myself included, are going to try our best to answer the question within the specified context. There are hundreds of factors at work that might further support or easily dismiss the concept of reach as an advantage, but those factors and their measurements weren’t offered to us. We were given 1500 items that suggest that reach simply matters- the question of how directly or indirectly was never asked.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 9, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
LOOOL
what a polite bitchslap
¬_¬
by ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ on Mar 10, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
lol
Nah man, I’m not trying to bitch anybody out. I am pretty polite, though.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 10, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
The notion that correlation does not necessarily imply causation is true. This does not mean that correlation can never imply causation. Causal relations are frequently – and entirely appropriately – inferred from correlational, non-experimental data in science. The rub is that assumptions have to be met. A clear temporal ordering of the variables is one circumstance under which causality can be safely assumed given the known laws of the universe. More generally, the causal model being proposed has to be theoretically sensible.
In our case, it’s not theoretically sensible to assume that fight outcomes cause the winner’s arms to grow or the loser’s arms to shrink. It’s also entirely theoretically sensible that reach advantage should lead to better striking, given everything that’s known about striking in martial arts.
A third variable that influences reach and fight outcomes is a possibility, as reach is largely a biologically fixed entity. I.e., something (say a particular configuration of genes) could be causing large reach as well as some other attribute – e.g., large size – that increases fighting efficacy. However, there are two things that undermine this explanation. First, MMA fights have weight classes. I.e., the rules of the sport “control” for weight – in a very experimental sense (rather than a statistical sense) – by having fighters compete against people of comparable size. Second, the variable in question is not reach, it’s reach advantage. I.e., a difference. I.e., a relative score. So a reach advantage of 1 means the same thing whether you are a lightweight or a heavyweight. So this is a second sense in which other physical attributes are “controlled” (caveat: there are many other problems with difference scores in statistics that aren’t worth going into here).
So, in a nutshell, it’s entirely reasonable to assume that reach advantage is causing the differences we are seeing.
My concerns surround the magnitude of these differences. Some confidence intervals or significance tests would be helpful [I know I know, easy to suggest … I will try if I have the time :)]. Particularly for the regression lines above – those slopes look extremely similar to me and are very unlikely to be different from one another beyond chance levels. I’m not entirely sure I understand what the Y axis is in that graph, but whatever it is, if the slopes don’t differ, the implication would be that there is no difference in the effect of reach difference across the various types of fight outcomes. This is a little contrary to some of the themes we’ve been hearing.
by BorisK on Mar 10, 2011 1:35 AM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Thanks for the input!
I hope you and Moltar will have the time to run some of these tests and share the results, my understanding of more complex probability/stat work is very very limited.
Sorry if the graphs were a little unclear- in both the histograms and the linear regressions graph, the X axis expresses the difference in reach between two opponents, and the Y axis indicates the percent of those bouts in which the rangier fighter was victorious.
As I interpret it, the slope of the linear regressions suggest that, in general, as reach advantage increases, so does win rate. Almost certainly that’s an oversimplification, but it’s really just a test I ran to check if any of the regression lines would have a 0 or negative slope, as that sort of result would have presumably damaged the hypothesis.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 10, 2011 6:26 AM EST up reply actions
I'm a molecular biologist
My wife completed her PhD and 2 post docs in Epidemiology over the past 10 years so I’ve been exposed to a LOT of stats stuff listening to her practice presentations/posters etc.
I wanted to say that BorisK here does a very nice job of explaning a lot of pretty hard core stuff in lay-person’s terms.
Rec’d for awesome
by hardlyworking on Mar 10, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
Do you drive a Dodge Stratus?
You know Joe, Brandon Vera is considered to be a Heavyweight George St.Pierre because he just comes, comes, and comes again... -Mike Goldberg, UFC 57
Cheick Kongo looks like a cross between Evander Holyfield and pop singer Seal!
Melvin Guilard looks like a little Kevin Randelman!
-Mike "All black people look alike to me" Goldberg, UFC 62/64
"Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'."
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Mar 15, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Bingo.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Mar 16, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting
It seems that those with a reach advantage in MMA, while not that much more likely to win, are more likely to FINISH. However, it also seems that they’re more succeptible to losing via decision.
At a very superficial level, it seems that this would be because of the advantages length can have for distance striking, as well as length on the mat. However, stockier wrestlers can also shut down those lanky Muay Thai/ BJJ prototypes with their strength from the clinch and top control.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
That's what I was imagining as well.
Common sense dictates that there must be situations in which reach is almost assuredly a disadvantage. It’s certainly possible that those situations manifest more frequently in the histograms with really wacky contours.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 9, 2011 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
It's all about the individual fighters, and how they use their reach.
Since MMA has so many different facets, many fighters never learn how to strike properly, which includes being able to use your length to keep range.
Stefan Struve certainly has a reach advantage over 99.9% of HW’s, but has been tagged repeatedly by his opponents, including Roy Nelson (who he’s nearly a foot taller than). If he ever learns how to jab, Struve will be a monster.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 10, 2011 8:38 AM EST up reply actions
well done
this challenge was right up your alley, huh. when i read the launch of the contest, i IMMEDIATELY thought of how excited you must have been. get some new colors, though. these make my eyes freak out.
Dude
Those are the default Open Office colors! Also, are they red or orange for you? It’s different for me on every computer, but the blue ones are always blue. Makes me wonder what root man is doing out here in the desert.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 10, 2011 6:28 AM EST up reply actions
Been really excited since the challenge was announced to see what you’d do with this. Great work bro.
Conducting an experiment on knocking people out in particular ways would be unethical.
God Damn!
How did i forget to rec you!
Conducting an experiment on knocking people out in particular ways would be unethical.
Thanks!
Can’t say it’s the most exhaustive analysis out there, but it looks pretty cut and dry, right? You have to figure that every once in a while, a simple explanation can hold up under scrutiny.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 10, 2011 6:32 AM EST up reply actions
Isn't that Occam's Razor?
No reason to make shit complicated if simple will do.
I think your histograms really do a nice job, and I like that you explained how as the # of samples in a bin decrease that variance can start throwing wrenches, its not something that everyone would think to mention.
by hardlyworking on Mar 10, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
Thank you
It never ceases to amaze me, the different walks of life everyone in this community comes from. Isn’t this “Martial Arts Mix” thing supposed to be for white supremacists?
by PistonHyundai on Mar 11, 2011 3:25 AM EST up reply actions
I always thought it was Ockham's Razor
But I just googled it, and they’re interchangeable. Learn something new every day I guess!
http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 15, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn good stuff.
I wonder what fights had the difference of +8in?
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Mar 11, 2011 11:30 AM EST reply actions
Thank you sir!
I would have assumed that most of those freaky fights happened in Japan, but as far as I know, no Japanese promotions were dragged for data. They can’t all be Jonny Bones fights, lol.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 11, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
The one I was most interested in...
…was the one where a 69.5"-reach fighter KO’d a guy with 82.5"-reach.
Did a little digging and found out it was Doug Marshall vs. Justin McElfresh at WEC 27.
None more gangster.
Tweeter!
Great stuff!
I also hope it’s not to douchebaggy to link to one of my own posts that says basically the same thing but nowhere near as clearly explained. http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2011/3/12/2045916/research-contest-revisited-correlations-and-r-square-values
And if there as some people here who really know their loglinear regressions I would love to get some comments on the regression analysis that I did.
This was a great partnership. Some good stuff came out of this. Our readers are smart*
*subo not included. your mileage may vary. void where prohibited.
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 15, 2011 3:54 PM EDT reply actions
Well done PistonHyundai
My inner MMA nerd is happy, thank you!
"I am very confident this fight can go either way"
Topic Suggestion:
How important is an edge in UFC/PRIDE experience? ie is a fighter with more fights/wins in the big leagues more likely to beat a fighter with less of that experience?
Might be tough to do but I didn’t want to suggest something else straight out of the tale of the tape (height, age, etc.)
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 15, 2011 4:17 PM EDT reply actions
Uhhhh
This is beyond flattering. Thank you to Mike and Rami and all my fellow community members that were kind enough to give this a read.
If you really want to shit a brick, do a search on BE for “research” and read as many of the FanPost results as you can handle. They all highlight various intriguing approaches to the subject, and some of them were written by serious probability & statistics black belts. Thanks again, and don’t text and drive!
Damn, I’m already digging lowellthehammer’s and apk’s suggestions— but I’ll report back if I think of a good one.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 15, 2011 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there a way to compare PRIDE rules vs. Unified Rules? What metric would be used, what question to ask?
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Mar 15, 2011 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Tough sell.
Relatively few PRIDE fights compared to fights contested under Unified rules, even in the UFC. Plus it took a few events for PRIDE to iron out their ruleset, further cutting into the amount of data that could be used.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 15, 2011 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Research Topic: Ring Rust
Does the amount of time since a fighters last fight make a difference?
I've seen this researched before...
Lemme see if I can’t find the relevant Fanpost/article.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 15, 2011 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Not a complete study, but it’s a start.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 15, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Another Research Topic: Do Takedown Attempts Set Up KOs?
Just another idea. Some fighters like Bader, have justified failed take-down attempts to set up for an overhand right.
how about
does the bigger fighter beat the smaller fighter when they have similar skill level?
"When you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. When you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. When you put it into a teapot, it becomes the teapot... Water can flow... Or it can crash! Be water my friend."
-Bruce Lee
by North Korean Zombie on Mar 15, 2011 6:14 PM EDT reply actions
Counter argument. Kendell Grove.
I rest my case.
"Clay "The Missing Link" Guida!!!"
by Adamantium007 on Mar 15, 2011 6:38 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
hmm
5-3 before the ufc
7-5 inside the ufc
12-8 overall
what do you think his record would be without that reach advantage of his?
i rest my case.
I think he was implying more that Kendall, being tall, in an outlier for winning via sub and getting KTFO'd
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
George Carlin
Piston Hyundai:
Ultimate Stats Champion
"You son of a bitch, give me my plunger back."
- welterweight contender Josh Koscheck
Just you get back to work, sir.
And thanks again.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 15, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
mike tyson
= anomaly/outlier
You gotta pay the troll toll to get into this boy's hole, you gotta pay the troll toll to get in.
Well
Mike’s more of an example of “how you use your reach”. During his days with Cus D’amato, Iron Mike’s greatest strength was his defense. The “Peak-a-boo” style Tyson utilized was revolutionary at the time- cover up, bob from side to side, make opponent miss, get inside, and then throw a vicious combo of punishing uppercuts to the head & hooks to the body. With how fast and powerful Mike was, it was a really hard style to overcome.
It was when D’amato died, and Tyson started training with Roach that his career hit the skids (his vices also had quite a bit to do with it); as brilliant an offensive coach as Freddie is, that style wasn’t great for Tyson. He became enamored with his offense, and that led to his losses to Buster Douglas, Holyfield, etc.
http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 16, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew this article would win.
Congrats bud, you done good.
http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
Thank you!
It was fun to put together. I’m excited for the next one.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 16, 2011 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions

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