NCAA Wrestling Championships 2011: One Legged Anthony Robles Top Seed in His Class
by Nate Wilcox on Mar 17, 2011 11:49 AM EDT
in Combat Sports
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The NCAA Division 1 wrestling championships begin today at the Wells Fargo Center in Philadelphia, PA. The event is being held far away from wrestling's mid-western strongholds in an attempt to do some outreach to other areas of the country.
Only a few of the graduating seniors are openly talking about moving on to MMA careers after college, but BE readers know we'll be hearing from many of these guys in years to come. Top fighters like UFC heavyweight champ Cain Velasquez, ex-champ Brock Lesnar, welterweight contender Josh Koscheck, and Bellator champs Ben Askren and Cole Konrad have all left their mark on the NCAA tourny.
SBNation's Luke Thomas has complete brackets, schedules and links to predictions at the mothership. KJ Gould has more here at BE. Luke also flags a few wrestlers to watch:
Cam Simaz - the 197lbs beast, although his field is incredibly tough. This Cornell wrestler leads a strong squad, but has his work cut out for him as the other top four seeds in his division are all All-Americans and individual conference champs.
Anthony Robles - an inspiring story, he's the one-legged wrestler who can't be told no. Robles was born with one leg, but hasn't let physical impairment get in his way. His seeding at number one comes with some controversy, but he nevertheless had an unfefeated season at Arizona State University and is something akin to the people's champ.
Jordan Burroughs - just a monster out of Nebraska. He already won the 165lbs national championship in 2009, but had to sit out most of 2010 with a knee injury. He's undefeated this season and is the Big 12 champion. I expect a repeat from him.
Kellen Moore - he's the current Big Ten champion and went undefeated this season at 33-0. His only real threat is Mike Thorn of Minnesota, but he lost to Moore in the Big Ten championship. Moore is the prohibitive favorite here.
I'm also going to keep an eye out for Kyle Dake of Cornell, who had a breakout performance at the national tournament last year taking the 141lbs title as a freshman. He's since moved up to 149lbs and is only seeded fourth (something else that's caused some controversy), but has strong upset potential.
The entire 184lbs division is stacked and the partity at the top is crazy. I won't repeat what the experts I've linked before have stated, but it's worth checking out their analysis about how this entire division could be turned upside down.
Anthony Robles is the one who has the most notable story. The Tucson Citizen has more:
Arizona State senior Anthony Robles is seeded No. 1 in the 125-pound class at the NCAA Division I wrestling tournament. He aims to finish No. 1. He's never been daunted by the fact he was born with one leg.
"I plan on going all out. I'm going to be throwing the kitchen sink and everything else out there with it," Robles said Wednesday.
Robles, 22, who started wrestling as a high school freshman in Mesa, Ariz., and won two state titles, is well known to NCAA tournament fans. They gave him standing ovations after performances that earned him All-America status the past two seasons.
He will take a 31-0 record into the tournament Thursday through Saturday at the Wells Fargo Center.
Some video of the amazing Robles in action in the full entry.
Robles HL
Robles vs Jarrod Garnett
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Robles has been a top wrestler for a long, long time now. Gifted athlete.
Twitter: @Ben_Duronio Stop calling Tommy Hanson "Big Red"
Probably a stupid question (and hopefully not an insensitive one), but since a leg weighs a lot, and this guy only has one, doesn’t that give him somewhat of an advantage that he can pack 40-50 more pounds of muscle everywhere on his body and still fight against smaller guys? I mean, look in the picture above, it’s clear that Robles is a much bigger and stronger guy than his opponent. The question is, is it fair to his competitors? Or maybe being bigger and stronger is pretty much cancelled out by only have a leg (less balance, less leverage, etc.)
Just thought I’d throw the question out, no harm intended.
I was thinking the exact same thing
by SentientAndroid on Mar 17, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m surprised by all the talk of Robles having an unfair advantage. Yes, he does have a larger torso for his weight class but at the same time he has spent years perfecting a style that overcomes his “handicap.” I don’t consider that to be unfair at all— he’s just a truly driven athlete.
by TheWillows on Mar 17, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree, and nothing wrong with making something most see as a “disadvantage” into a way he can even up the odds or even get an advantage.
nothing wrong with it at all,
but also nothing wrong with pointing out exactly how he’s turned a disadvantage into an advantage. it’s also worth noting that at the level he’s wrestling at, being a bit stronger than his opposition probably isn’t enough to get as far as he has. that takes hard work and extreme talent.
I’m not saying he has an unfair advantage, I’m asking whether he has one or not. As alicks pointed out below, Robles is used to fighting two-legged opponents, while his opponents can find it unusual to be fighting a one-legged wrestler. So there’s that aspect. Plus, he’s a lot stronger in his upper body than his opponents. I don’t know, it’s just an odd situation.
Any of his opponents are free to cut off one or both of their legs if they feel a need to make things fair.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Security does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than exposure.
by splint on Mar 17, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I knew someone would make that comment…
It’s like at the olympics, you can’t have a one-legged person participate with an artificial leg because of the extra spring it gives you. In this particular case, the advantage is with the weight it saves you, etc.
And to take it to the extreme, what if someone was born with three perfectly functional legs or arms? Could he participate in these competitions? I don’t know what the answer is… just asking questions here…
A friend of mine was born with an extra thumb on his left hand. His parents had it removed when he was still very young. He ended up being left-handed and started pitching in baseball. We always wondered what kind of crazy pitches could he have thrown with the extra thumb. Probably cost their kid a Cy Young.
by FragglesHateKos on Mar 17, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
His parents had it removed before he was two. But there was a picture from when he was around 9 months. The second thumb was just below the regular one, had the same structure, and was only slightly smaller. They said he could move it. It probably would have been able to grip. Of course if they had left it, he would have been a life-long mitten man in the winter.
by FragglesHateKos on Mar 17, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Antonio Alfonseca
Alfonseca had six fingers, though that little pinky never helped with his pitching.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Security does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than exposure.
when you make MLB money
you should amputate that shit. that extra digit serves no function.
he has no excuse.
by Victor Rodriguez on Mar 17, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
My point was just that I think the strength advantage if a wash with the fact that he’s only got one leg to work with.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Security does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than exposure.
How can you say that when he’s clearly better than most of his opponents considering he went undefeated this year? How can we know him missing a leg and thus having a strength advantage isn’t exactly why he’s winning so much? Or maybe he’s just flat out better than his opponents, better technique, etc.
I mean, we’ll never know if it truly is an advange or not, but I was wondering what others thought of it.
The dude still only has one leg to work with. Do all one legged wrestlers go undefeated? I don’t know. Certainly having one leg has both advantages and disadvantages when it comes to wrestling. I don’t think anyone can say exactly how they add up. This dude isn’t the defending champ, if that says something.
I just think calling it an “advantage” is sort of crass. Like, “Yeah, he’s a good wrestler but mainly because he has one leg.” Almost like it demeans his wrestling skills. I’m guessing he’d prefer to have two if it’s all the same to us.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Security does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than exposure.
I read a similar story a long time ago about a local HS wrestler who had no legs. I had the same thoughts re: disparity in upper-body strength, but the biggest thing that hit me was the training advantage/disadvantage.
For the no-legged wrestler, he’s used to wrestling against “normal” wrestlers – it’s what he practices at all the time.
For a “normal” wrestler, going up against a guy with no legs is (probably) very unfamiliar and puts him out of his element a little.
Not saying that he shouldn’t be allowed to wrestle or that he’s got an unfair advantage, just throwing another idea/viewpoint out there.
None more gangster.
Tweeter!
I was thinking the same thing when I read about the no legged wrestler who had an MMA fight.
by mmablitzkrieg on Mar 17, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Kyle Maynard
he has no arms or legs, and is a pretty good grappler. he had an amateur mma fight a while ago that was live streamed on Sherdog. it took place in some kind of barn and the announcers got shit-faced during the show. his opponent just kept jabbing him in the head as he rushed in. i don’t think he’s fought again.
Well, no arms and legs is a little different from just no legs, and same with MMA vs. wrestling.
None more gangster.
Tweeter!
no kidding, no arms, no legs, what a ridiculous unfair weight advantage maynard has. people could get hurt.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Security does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than exposure.
I never said he had an unfair advantage in the MMA fight, I only said I thought the same thing alicks stated (that normal guys usually are not used to facing amputees and thus are kinda out their game while the amputees are used to training with normal guys). And I meant about the wrestling fight, I only mentioned his MMA fight ’cause I did not know his name.
And regarding his MMA fight, it must have been just a freakshow. I understand he can positively wrestle, but it becomes really strange when in a MMA fight your opponent is downed 100% of the time. If it were under vale tudo or even pride rules it would make more sense, but then it would be really unhealthy for Kyle
by mmablitzkrieg on Mar 17, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Whether someone has an advantage or not depends on the rules of the game
In wrestling, the point is to pin your opponent’s shoulders to the mat. The way this is accomplished almost always involves grabbing a hold of the opponent’s arm or leg. You couldn’t do that with Maynard.
Maynard had impressively developed himself into an extremely strong guy — he could bench 360 pounds (using a modified lift, of course) and was wrestling in the 103 pound weight class.
Maynard had a distinct disadvantage in almost every sport, but not wrestling.
Jeeze, people
there’s a reason people with top level wrestling ambitions aren’t cutting off their limbs! It takes an unbelievable amount of work and effort to learn to wrestle with a serious physical defect. A problem amplified that most coaches aren’t going to know how to help.you create a new style. Any “advantage” they have in terms of weight is offset by the extremely difficult work they’ve done in creating a completely different way of wrestling to deal with their issue. They’ve earned any extra strength advantage they have. If their opponents don’t like it, I’m sure their parents have hacksaws in the garage. They can take off any body part of theirs they want.
there’s a reason people with top level wrestling ambitions aren’t cutting off their limbs!
I’d say they do not saw their limbs only because it really sucks to be an amputee and even if it really helped at wrestling it is not worth it.
by mmablitzkrieg on Mar 17, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I mean learning to do daily and trivial things without any limb must be really difficult
Hmmmmmmmmm……….
by mmablitzkrieg on Mar 17, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
So learning a sport involving mobility and balance without a limb, with techniques built around fully limbed people must be even MORE difficult
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm……..
And I never said it wasn't
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……..
by mmablitzkrieg on Mar 17, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, tremendously hard work will always give a person an advantage in any competition
So I fail to see how they have an unfair advantage at all. The only difference is that they are forced to do tremendously hard work to become wrestlers, where as a fully-limbed person has a choice whether they are going to work harder or not.
Tremendous hard work will indeed bring advantage to any person, limbed or not.
There are two points which were said as helping the amputees:
1- They fight at a lower weigh compared to their own structure (and thus their strength).
2- They put their adversaries automatically out of their game, while they’re still at theirs.
But it is quite obvious they get disadvantages also. My point was only that I don’t think they are completely handicapped as they also get some advantages.
by mmablitzkrieg on Mar 17, 2011 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that’s what I was getting at. I didn’t mean to kick the hornet’s nest with this one.
While being an amputee is probably really difficult and I’ve got nothing but respect for the guy’s talent and hard work, there are a few “pluses” to the situation. Since I’ve never wrestled and I have all of my limbs, I can’t say whether or not the pluses outweigh the minuses, I was just commenting on them.
None more gangster.
Tweeter!
there’s a reason people with top level wrestling ambitions aren’t cutting off their limbs!
Of course not – you’re probably at a huge disadvantage having no legs, especially at the higher levels where the technique is better and more refined.
I wonder, though, at the middle school and high school levels, would the strength “advantage” that an amputee has have a bigger impact due to the lower level of technique and skill (comparatively) at that age?
This is all kind of morbid, but I’ve got a lot of free time to think about/discuss this weird shit.
None more gangster.
Tweeter!
I agree that he'd have an advantage, and it would be unfair in that it's not available to his competitors.
But, since the rules don’t disallow it, I have no problem with the guy exploiting the loophole.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
I thought of the weight,
but what really seems like a unfair advantage is simply the lack of the leg itself. That might sound like a insanely stupid thing to say, but all of his opponents are at at a disadvantage for not having another place to pull leverage with.
Regardless of all of that though, it still takes some tremendous heart and goal achievements to attain what he already has. Not trying to take that away from him at all.
by Empty Thoughts on Mar 17, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
David Taylor
You need to add David Taylor (wrestles at 157 lb) to the list of wrestlers to watch. He’s a redshirt freshman — 34-0, with 32 wins by major (or better). He’s scoring techfalls against top 10 opponents and his closest match was in the big ten finals 8-3. To put his badassness in perspective he beat the #5 seed at 165 lb (Colt Sponseller), a weight class up from Taylor, 14-1. After that match, Sponseller went up to 165 lb.
Taylor has the potential to be US wrestling’s next big thing. He’s also extremely fun to watch because he’s constantly moving from one shot and set up to the next.
If you don’t watch wrestling Taylor, Burroughs and Robles are the guys to watch.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
Also Dake is not going to beat Caldwell at 149 lb. He has looked solid but not at all dominant this year.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Mar 17, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Taylor's tilts are amazing.
I tried recruiting him but at least he went to my old home. Taylor has a great low single from neutral. He’s long, so even though he’s younger and not as strong as some guys he faces, he’s able to use his length for leverage, and has great hips to counter their power. And from the top his control is some of the best in the country. Hes very active from the top and works a lot of tilts. His matches are always fun to watch, and he’s going to be a fabulous feature for years to come.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 17, 2011 11:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hey PSU
write back to me and KJ.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Mar 17, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
i did nate. its not my email, so he just let me use his cell.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 17, 2011 12:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
thanks man!
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Mar 17, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Recruiting for Taylor must have been pretty intense. I haven’t really been watching wrestling for that long. His ability to control people from top position is a sight to behold. Even last year when he was growing into 157 lb his control from top position was outstanding. It will be interesting to see if bumps up to 165 lb next year given Dylan Alton will be wrestling and, if he does, even more interesting to see how he fairs against Howe.
You’re the coach at Illinois, I gather from your post below. Best of luck at the NCAAs!
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Mar 17, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Howe vs Taylor interesting....
Completely different Wrestlers. Howe is a in your face brawler, leaves the mat with bruises and cuts all over his head and face. And he grinds his opponents out. Taylor is a slick fast control wrestler. The winner will be the guy who is able to wrestle his match. But I look for Alton to move up. He did good this redshirt season winning the championship.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 17, 2011 12:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hey Darkness
you interested in helping us do some wrestling/grappling coverage?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Mar 17, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
If you read my piece
I note the top seeds in the division of which Taylor is not. Worth watching, but not part of my write-up.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Mar 17, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Im here now, i live the write up thanks
Robles will not win, he will have a tough time finishing in the top 8. The team battle is going to be intense. Iowa, Penn St ( just beat Iowa for the big ten title) and Cornell should be dueling tough for the team title. Wish my boys luck guys. People ask me all the time why i didn’t get into mma. Simple I love wrestling, and I love coaching here at Illinois. Thanks again for showing wrestling some love on a mma site.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 17, 2011 11:43 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
we're looking to add more
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Mar 17, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
awesome news
maybe if the MMA world can start to show some interest in amateur wrestling, that’ll do something to stop the bleeding. Let BE lead the way, I love it! Wish I could help, but I dont know much at all about wrestling at the D1 level. If anyone has questions on North Florida 2A HS wrestling though… thats all me.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
at this point just simple results posts are what we're looking for
very basic top level news.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Mar 17, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
has any thought been given higher up to an NCAA Wrestling SBN blog?
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
we've thought about it
looking for the right team.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Mar 17, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
BJ Futrell just won. Nice job coach.
by Hardcharger on Mar 17, 2011 12:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
BJ!!!!
He needed that after the big tens he seems confident. And how you know this already?
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 17, 2011 12:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Watching scores live. BTW, my wife works down the hall from you. Shortest person around there, if that helps narrow it down;)
by Hardcharger on Mar 17, 2011 12:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Terrazas and Kennedy win too. Nice.
by Hardcharger on Mar 17, 2011 12:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My third varsity match
My freshman year, I lost to a senior who had only one leg. I think that in most sports, a handicap like this is worse than it is in wrestling, which is why so many athletes with disabilities like this are able to excel in the sport – though Robles is definitely taking it a step further.
When I wrestled the kid who only had one leg, I didn’t even notice it til I was on the mat – being a freshman, my head was everywhere else, and when I had seen him at warm ups he was wearing a prosthetic and warm ups. He came in fast and low, and when he locked up a cradle, I wasn’t getting out.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
Guys converting to MMA
If you want to watch someone who’s said he’s going to transition into MMA, watch Bubba Jenkins at 157. He’s talented but uneven. I believe he’s seeded 4th.
I’m sure there are others.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
good tip
it’s not always the best pure wrestlers who make the best MMA fighers.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Mar 17, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Fully agree. I believe jenkins said he’s already training his boxing (and mayabe his BJJ, i forget). Bubba’s attitude however is questionable.
About writing, my work schedule is usually unbearable (although now it’s quite favorable, which is why I’m spending 2 hours a day on this site), which would make me unreliable. I’m not sure of your set up but I would be willing to contribute fanpost type articles if something caught my eye. Given your post above, I don’t think that’s what you’re looking for however.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Mar 17, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
we're looking for a swarm that can chip away at the news
every post helps!
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Mar 17, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Years ago I thought someone should have started an “all-in” wrestling promotion – basically real pro wrestling. Combining catch and jujitsu holds with pins would be awesome.
There was a Real Pro Wrestling League
But the rules weren’t overtly different to Freestyle mixed with Folkstyle and it didn’t do that well.
Yeah, i remember that. I was talking more of an “all-in” from a 1910s match at the Alhambra theatre: basically catch wrestling with jujutsu holds allowed. I used to think that would have been a great gimmick for promotion when the UFC was in the dark ages and pro wrestling was still king. Basically real pro wrestling as they used to wrestle when it was real. It would be great to bring back the catch style that was lost in 1920.
Neil Melanson is running an in-house catch wrestling tournament once a month at Xtreme Couture. He’s experimenting with the rules and such to see how well it works out. There’s also unofficial King of Catch tournaments that people can run based on rules the late Karl Gotch suggested.
Best 2 of 3 falls.
3 count pin or submission.
12 minute time period per fall.
1 minute rest between falls.
No points – if it doesn’t end by Pin or Submission it’s a draw, and you can re-match after a short break to proceed in bracket. If the time runs out again a judge will have to decide who did the most to try and finish the match.
Weight classes but no skill-divisions in an attempt to stop sandbaggers.
It’ll take a while to get rules people can agree on, but I think the focus on finishing a match by pin or sub over points playing is important.
That’s great. It would be great if there was a revival of the sport of catch wrestling. The combination of submission/pain holds with pins completely changes the grappling game and its kind of sad that a sport that did and should exist doesn’t.
It never recovered just prior to WWI when it was coming into disrepute
Coupled with submissions being taken out of Amateur Wrestling by the NCAA at the beginning of the 1930’s, it was carried on by the Carney Wrestlers evolving into the WWE abortion we have today.
Yeah, I have an article I’m still thinking about called “What the Hell Happened to Pro Wrestling?” discussing the perfect storm that killed it right around WWI. Between the scandals and fixed matches, the Great War taking a lot of new talent and the European market out of the picture, and then with a few short years immediately after the war the Olympics choosing Greco-Roman and freeystyle over Catch, the AAU switching to freesyle, and pro wrestling going completely fake, all spelled the demise of the sport.
If you work on it and keep hold of it
That’s exactly the sort of thing I’d want to front page when we have the grappling section up and running.
I’m too busy right now, but as soon as I finish the last two parts of my golden age series I have a bunch of fanposts planned for pre WWI pro wrestling.
by John Nash on Mar 17, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Submissions weren't taken out of amateur wrestling…
…because they were never a part of the sport, in the first place.
Don’t get me wrong— I’m not saying that wrestlers did not know how to twist and push limbs in ways which could cause injury. I do, however, contest the assertion that Submission, in the modern sense of the word, was a stated goal in any Catch-as-Catch-Can wrestling match.
I’ve read through dozens of wrestling manuals dated between 1880 and 1950, and scores of period newspaper articles reporting on matches. I have found no published evidence that forcing immediate concession from one’s opponent by the application of painful holds was a goal of the sport. In fact, quite the opposite— applying holds for the sake of pain seems to have been looked down upon as poor sportsmanship.
I’ll rummage around for my notes, if anyone wants sources. I know this will likely ruffle some feathers, as modern Catch guys like to claim it as an ancient lineage of sub grappling. I simply find no evidence to support that stance.
by Kung-Fu Joe on Mar 17, 2011 2:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Actually I’ve done a lot of research into it (and hopefully get a chance to put it into some fanposts) and submissions were “sometimes” part of the sport. The more sophisticated/professional wrestling was concerned with pins and used the moves to force subjects to roll on their back, but the barnstormers and backwoods wrestlers took something from both “old world” Lancashire wrestling and watered down backwoods rough and tumble and had a place for submission (often by crying “enough!”). When judo/jujutsu came over and we got the mixed matches submissions started to come back into play in these matches which where then incorporated into “Fake wrestling” which probably also inspired by the barnstormer/lumberjack rules.
In other words they were there just not in the official/professional level but existed on the AT show/betting scene. Ooh, ooh, and I’m working on a direct link (at least in a sly way) between Pale and catch. As well as the lost practice of American pankratium. It’s frigging fascinating.
Read some books by Mike Chapman
Catch Wrestling was Amateur Wrestling in America until Hugo Otapalik used his power and influence to change the rules of catch as catch can and create what became high school and collegiate wrestling. Mike Chapman, president of the Dan Gable Museum and the American amateur wrestling hall of fame, is also the most respected writers in American amateur wrestling. In Chapman’s book on the History of wrestling in Iowa he writes about Otapalik and explains how amateur wrestling moved from catch as catch can to folkstyle. Hugo Otapalik was the coach of the 1932 US olympic freestyle team, five time chairman of the AAU wrestling committee and organizer of the 1948 and 1952 US olympic trials. Hugo Otapalik is most known as the author of “Modern Wrestling for High School and College” which he authored in 1930 laying out the changes he had made in American amateur wrestling. Otapalik writes in this book:
“Six Years ago catch-as-catch-can wrestling was an entirely different sort of affair. The men would mix a choke hold with a hook-scissors around the body that would put one of them out for a matter of hours or even days…the sport was too brutal and we needed a transition. All strangle holds were barred and such bone breaking holds as the full nelson, toe-holds, and twisting arm locks met their doom. The AAU soon took a hand in seeing that more rules were set up. The National Collegiate Athletic Association stepped up and revised and modernized the rules of the game to such an extent that there is now practically no danger to the growing boy in wrestling…….”
So there you go. Coach of the US Olympic Freestyle team in 1932 along with the NCAA took out the submissions in Amateur Wrestling, by his own admission in the book that served as a blueprint for scholastic wrestling going forward.
Makes you wonder how all these wrestlers would do today in MMA or even when UFC started in 1993 had this key moment in wrestling history not happened. Wrestlers today in MMA as a result have had to turn to BJJ and are working out how to implement it into their game, filling in the holes and unaware a blueprint of sorts existed a century earlier.
I think what he is talking about is the idea of catch wrestling being submission wrestling. The Gotch toe-hold was a submission but the way Hack submitted was to just give up and roll on his back. That’s how most submissions worked. In fact there were often rules that forbid hurting an opponent just to cause pain.
But from what I’ve read submissions did exists in the sport but it was kind of class affair. The profession music hall wrestlers wrestled to pin. The traveling showman included an option for the opponent to cry out “enough” – which was probably taken from backwoods fighting which has its roots in collar-and-elbow, Lancashire, and Scottish fighting.
Exactly what I meant.
Again, I’m not saying that wrestlers didn’t understand how to cause pain. I’m simply asserting that the modern concept of Submission Grappling was alien at the time.
Yes, in Rough-and-Tumble and in the carnivals, you could make the guy cry uncle, but that wasn’t representative of the greater sport of wrestling,
I’d be interested in seeing any evidence of submission-as-a-goal from 19th and early 20th Century Lancashire. From what I remember from newspaper articles surrounding E.W. Barton-Wright’s early cross-style challenges, Englanders seemed downright perplexed at the concept of submission grappling.
by Kung-Fu Joe on Mar 17, 2011 4:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, it went away from their concept of sportmanship. Which is strange because there are accounts of James Figg winning his early boxing matches (against Ned Sutton for example) by taking his opponent to the ground and forcing them to submit – although I’m sure it wan’t anything too advanced..
From my understanding the divide was very class oriented (speaking of the US) were the lower class wanted a definitive victor by the loser giving up and the middle class wanted a more civilized sport to be decided by pinfalls. Boxing likewise went through similar changes to lose their barbaric nature. Thus the shows that catered to the rural/lower class developed the “hooking” at the AT shows (carnivals didn’t really appear until the end of the 19th century) Much like judo/jujutsu – or even the left jab – more and more techniques developed as the sporting rules defined what you could or could not do.
At least that’s my reading of it from everything i’ve poored through. Do you have a different take?
I'd like to see that too
that’s essentially what Pancrase originally was but with some striking allowed.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Mar 17, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Bubba is tough but lacks heart.
He transferred from Penn St because he couldnt beat the Altons or Taylor, and cried to Cael and transferred. I used to like Bubba, and he’s all American status, but I question his heart.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 17, 2011 11:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ha, that was my take on him, but didn’t want to say it because I’m not that familiar with him. He always seemed to start strong but then fold against Metcalf, which isn’t too much of a knock since Metcalf has three lungs, or so they say.
I know he beat Taylor last year, but I simply can’t see Taylor losing to him at this point. Last year, Taylor went up 22 lb from where he wrestled at in high school, I believe.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Mar 17, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Taylor also lost to St. John last year.
Taylor is a different beast now under Caels guidance. His confidence is much higher, he’s in better shape, and is much stronger not as lanky.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 17, 2011 12:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Just curious — when you were recruiting him what weight did you seem him wrestling at?
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Mar 17, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
his junior year at St Paris Grahm
We weren’t really I’m the hunt, I spoke with him once, some of are other recruiters talked with him several times. Didn’t pursue him too hard. We don’t get that many scholarships for wrestling so really have to focus on the guys that you have a good shot at getting. Cael is quickly becoming the most feared recruiter in d-1 wrestling.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 17, 2011 12:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Flowrestling has the most entertaining coverage that's live right now
It’s audio, but it’s video of them watching it live. They can’t show any of the matches because of he ESPN deal but it’s the best I can do since ESPN only likes US citizens with AT&T Internet Service.
I dig the coverage, as well as whatever plans are in the works with KJ. Exciting stuff.
Twitter me @kkelchner621
Read me at Cageside Seats
by Kaleb Kelchner on Mar 17, 2011 12:20 PM EDT reply actions
I'm running live updates on the thread Kid Nate linked to, by the way
Update a scoreboard every few minutes. Feel free to discuss the first session here
I don’t know much about wrestling but love the coverage. Would love to see some profiles on the guys who have mentioned MMA. Did guys like Mark Ellis give indications they were going to MMA before last years championships? I remember a bunch of guys making announcements right after the championships were over but can’t remember if it was well known who would be going straight into MMA.
David Taylor's wrestling now
Wish I could see it, argh! 4-2 Taylor at the moment after what sounds like a crazy scramble
Watching now
Taylor took over. 9-2 although Erisman is forcing him to scramble.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Mar 17, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Erisman got NF points? I didn’t watch the match; must have been a crazy scramble.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Mar 17, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
What's the controversy?
surrounding Robles ranking at number 1? Dude’s undefeated at a known wrestling college and has two state titles.
Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. Security does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than exposure.
The defending national champ
Matt Mc Donough of Iowa is seeded #2. He has only one loss, to #3 seed Precin, and has avenged the loss twice this year. Many feel Robles got a gift seed because of his incredible story.
Robles is a great story
I go to ASU and I have been hearing a lot about him this year. Never had time to go to any of the matches but I’m glad to see he is doing great
I try to be a role model for kids around the park. If some kid wants to grow dope, they can come talk to me, instead of growing dope 6 or 7 times through denial and error, they're going to get it right the first time and have some good dope. - Ricky
You can't tell me to not grow dope. It's like telling the NWA to stop being black.-Ricky
Nick Ackerman
wrestled for Simpson college in Iowa in the late 1990’s-early 2000’s and was a double amputee (don’t know if it was congenital or something that happened to him later in life). He was a 2001 NCAA Division III Championship, very, very talented grappler. I rolled with him a couple of years ago in a submission grappling tournament and he was a crazy tough opponent. He ended up winning the tournament, submitting Eric Schaffer (who was a brown belt at the time) along the way. I wouldn’t say he had an unfair advantage, he was really experienced and very technical, but it’s difficult to shoot a single/hit a switch on a guy with no legs. Also, his low center of gravity gave him a crazy tough top game.
by mictlantechutli on Mar 17, 2011 6:40 PM EDT reply actions
Small world, I went to school with Nick. He is a great guy. He is a prosthetist now and trains a little at Pat Miletichs’ gym. He is a beast of a guy. He had bilateral below knee amputations when he was really young due to some kind of fever it think. He had that move he called “the nub” when he would take your back and dig his nubs into your ribs. My good friend was roommates with him in college and would get his ass kicked every night they got drunk(which at Simpson was almost every night).
All your doing is spewing garbage with no sense of order or articulation whatsoever. - SimplePsych
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