Lorenzo Fertitta to Strikeforce: You Will Allow Elbows on the Ground
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 3:33 PM EDT
in UFC Analysis
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Some things about Strikeforce will stay the same. Mauro Ranallo, Pat Miletich, Stephen Quadros and the gang will still call the fights. Scott Coker will still be cage side. Many of the world's best fighters will still be competing in that very cage. But there will be one significant difference: for the first time, elbow strikes to a downed opponent will be legal in Strikeforce.
The UFC spent a ton of time and money to legalize this sport across the country. The rules they envisioned included elbow strikes on the ground. Owner Lorenzo Fertitta made it clear on a media conference call today that Strikeforce, long opposed to allowing those techniques, will now be getting in line. "The one change we're going to make as promoter of the show is to use the unified rules that you see in the UFC...elbows on the ground will be allowed in Strikeforce," Fertitta said, a position that makes sense. He has a lot invested in these rules. Under his watch, Strikeforce will play the sport by the same rules everyone else does.
Many critics, like Fight Opinion's Zach Arnold, have been calling for the move for some time:
The Unified rules allow for elbow strikes on the ground and don’t allow for knee strikes to the head. There has been great debate about whether or not knee strikes to the head should be allowed in the States. What there hasn’t been a debate about is whether or not elbows on the ground should be allowed. They should and there’s almost universal agreement about it. In the case of Strikeforce, being different for the sake of being different doesn’t earn you any brownie points — it just earns you fights that go longer or go the distance.
MMA trainer Ron Dayley, owner of the SSF Submission Academy in Tennessee, explains that it may be difficult for a fighter at first to deal with the technique - primarily because it is so hard to train for:
We can train elbows, but they are hard to train full on. You’re trying to prepare a fighter the best that you can and at the same time not give him a crazy gash above his eye a month before his fight. It’s tough. Elbows are one of those things that you really only get useful experience with by fighting in the cage utilizing and defending them, it’s a cage experience thing that only time gives you.
While critics have complained about elbows serving the primary purpose of opening cuts, I think it's important that the sport be contested under the same rules across the country. It would be off-putting if certain conferences in college football didn't allow the forward pass, or if the ACC decided to outlaw the three point shot in their basketball games. The sport of MMA is all grown up - it's time to find a set of rules and enforce them, uniformly across promotional boundaries and state lines.
Strikeforce: Diaz vs. Daley coverage
Strikeforce: Overeem vs. Werdum coverage
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Things that are always good: More ways to finish, more ways to damage your opponent
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by Forrest Lynn on Mar 14, 2011 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
FUCK YEAH
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by ElliotMatheny on Mar 14, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
This is great news and I couldn’t agree more with Jon’s last line.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com and Bloody Elbow Radio
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Mar 14, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Elbows rarely (excluding Jones) end fights unless it's from a cut.
I’m ok with no elbows on the ground. What would really be a game changer would be kneed to the head of a downed opponent. Wrestlers would think twice before shooting TD’s
Why should that matter?
Should we ban jabs too because they don’t end enough fights? Ludicrous.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 12 recs
it's a matter of the risks outweigh benefits for most of us nay sayers
it can create more cuts than end fights.
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
How many fights have ended due to a cut stoppage directly related to elbow strikes?
I remember someone did a fanpost on it a while back and it was like a fraction of a percent. Perception doesn’t seem to mesh with reality for most of the naysayers.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
two things, those fanpost did not include any data, it was basically take my word as fact or leave it, personally I’m very skeptical of such things if they do not include the data they’ve used to come to their conclusions. Another thing is that not all cuts end fights, this is very, very hard to asses because 3 cuts out of 10 may end a fight, while the other 7 won’t (I’m making these numbers up btw). but that doesn’t mean the cut won’t bother the person who has it, such as getting in the eyes or getting a lot of blood in the body, making it harder to grapple.
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
So what you're saying is
That an elbow that cuts an opponent is an effect way of neutralizing/nullifying your opponents offense?
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
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well
sure, you may have made the cut, but is getting blood into someone’s eyes a legit way of winning? if you fight in a beach and throw some sand in peoples eyes, that may be fine to some, other’s may view that as dirty… different points of view, I guess…
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
I don't see it as dirty at all
I mean you use the tools at your disposal within the ruleset provided. It’s not like the cut stoppage is a plague upon modern MMA where it’s occuring left right and center. I think MMA doctors in general actually give fighters too much leyway in determining whether they’re still able to fight. But bottom line, blood tends to be a part of combat sports and how a fighter reacts/deals with it can have a great impact on his career.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
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But bottom line, blood tends to be a part of combat sports and how a fighter reacts/deals with it can have a great impact on his career.
certainly, but I see nothing wrong with trying to minimize it, I’m not saying “it’s bad for the sport” or something similar, but I could do without.
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
Every beach confrontation I've been in
Has been settled by 2 vs.2 shirtless volleyball. Just the way we roll in the Dangerzone, I guess.
by Forbidden Psychological Technology on Mar 14, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
dance offs are the best thing to use
when you need a segue out of a fight
by Victor Rodriguez on Mar 14, 2011 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
He sees what you did there.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This kid
Best commenter to join in the last six months.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Mar 14, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
...
Any strike can cause a cut. Why are we trying to ban techniques that cause them? Cuts are a part of fighting, they’re going to happen regardless of what techniques are allowed/disallowed. If a fighter is too bothered by a cut to fight effectively maybe he shouldn’t be fighting.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
any strike can cause a cut, but elbows can cause cuts easier, cuts are part of fighting, but there’s nothing wrong with trying to minimize it.
If a fighter is too bothered by a cut to fight effectively maybe he shouldn’t be fighting.
now that’s just laughable
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
Look at Lytle vs. Koscheck.
Lytle got slashed open like he was in a B rate horror movie and still fought his ass off. Florian put a nasty gash on Sherk but that didn’t slow Sean down a bit. Cuts will happen regardless of what techniques you allow or disallow. Fighters should be prepared to deal with them and fight through it.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
But you're saying we should limit what fighters can do so they don't get cut.
I’d rather we allow everything we can and the fighters know that it’s something they need to deal with, as we’re never going to eliminate the possibility of cuts occurring anyhow. Elbows are a useful tool for fighters in top control and there’s little compelling evidence to prevent fighters from using them other than the highly exaggerated myth that all they do is cause cuts.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't agree that it's a myth
and people haven’t presented any good arguments to state otherwise.
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
you are right lowellthehammer
Allowing elbows makes a fighter think twice about trying to take the fight to the ground. If fighter A has a great juijitsu game and thinks he has an advantage over fighter B. Fighter A might reconsider taking it to the ground if he is fighting Chael Sonnen or Jon Jones. So, elbows help in a small part to keeping a fight standing.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/2/23/1323703/cut-stoppages-elbows-to-blame-or
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Mar 14, 2011 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you sir.
Although you probably shouldn’t facilitate my laziness. I’ll never learn that way.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
No. He’s disagreeing in a reasonable way.
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
No, because...
“no data, and that’s not a diss to Riley, I like him a lot”
When the whole FanPost is chock full of data.
by Sergio Hernandez on Mar 14, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure seems...
Like data to me.
“Elbows have led to 4 TKO stoppages in which in the numbers is 0.5% of fights while elbow caused cuts have led to 0.4% or 3 stoppages in 701 fights.”
by Sergio Hernandez on Mar 14, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
oh brother...
that isn’t data, that’s his conclusion, data would be showing the list of the 701 fights, which were stopped due to cuts, etc.
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
I suppose you're...
Right. But still wrong. All at once.
What a paradox you are!
by Sergio Hernandez on Mar 14, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I suppose...
Blood Elbow community member “Riley_96” has ulterior motives in creating non-factual FanPosts.
by Sergio Hernandez on Mar 14, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
of course not
but you are seriously naive to think no cool human (and I say that because Riley is cool) ins’t bound to mistakes.
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
A mistake collecting simple...
Data would be egregious, especially when someone is doing it for no gain other than to create discussion with his peers.
by Sergio Hernandez on Mar 14, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Nor is it dispositive of the effect elbows have beyond stopping fights. How often do they lead to a stoppage but aren’t credited as the primary cause. How often do cut fighters go on to lose a bout compared to fighters who aren’t cut?
The information is very limited to proclaim what he has.
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
where did you get your data?
i googled mine.
by Victor Rodriguez on Mar 14, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm considering updating his post so you'll stop saying there's no proof.
Not that you will, as you’ve already established a contingency plan (all those unnamed victims who get bothered by cuts so much that they lose fights without getting TKO’d), but I’m bored and have a lot of time on my hands. Decisions decisions.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
don’t bother arguing the cut thing with him, you won’t get anywhere. Somehow people are still arguing it even though fights hardly end by cuts. As long as Bas keeps spouting his nonsense about this people will follow along.
right, but even though there is no problem with cuts causing stoppages, you keep banging the drum that elbows cause too many cuts that cause stoppages.
we disagree
even though there is no problem with cuts causing stoppages
well, that’s your opinion brother, do you think your shit don’t stink or something man, seriously, it’s like you guys are a bunch of arrogant spoiled kids who can’t take any sort of debates without name calling, or in your case, can’t be open to other ideas. we just disagree, nothing more, nothing less. No one owns the truth here, there is no proof for one side or the other, that’s it. have fun on your side with people who don’t even know what the fuck data even means. peace
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
mature?
I’m open to debate, immature would be me singing “I’m right, your wrong, bla bla bla” with my fingers inside my ears, which is basically what you guys are doing.
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
besides
gotta work anyhow, I rather not lose any more brain cells with this, I’m out!
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
YEAH!!!
Party at your place. Who’s bringing the beer? My vote’s for Phildo.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Well looks like it's on Phil then.
Make sure it’s Coors Phil. I don’t drink Bud cause they don’t pay me nothin.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
the data is pretty simple, you can argue with the data whoever used before, but you can’t argue with the fact that a miniscule number of fights are stopped because of cuts, and like I’ve told you many times before, the last year I gave a shit to look stuff up, the UFC and dream had the same number of cut stoppages, even though the UFC had a shit ton more fights and the evil, dastardly elbows, yet somehow people still think all elbows do is cause cuts, it makes no sense.
How do stoppages tell you how many cuts are caused by elbows? You’re using the wrong metric for the job.
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
why do cuts that not cause stoppages matter? The whining is that elbows cause cuts that lead to cheap wins, if the fight doesn’t get stopped because of the cut, it isn’t a cheap win.
Just because the fight doesn’t get stopped because of the cut doesn’t mean it didn’t have a major impact. That’s the point he’s making.
You can disagree. You can’t be hostile or try to run someone with an opposing view off.
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
What about standing...
Elbows in the clinch?
Any strike can cause a cut. Where’s the almighty DATA that shows elbows are more likely to produce cuts?
Hell, I’ll even take a FanPost with a conclusion. I ain’t picky unlike some.
by Sergio Hernandez on Mar 14, 2011 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
well
if you get kicked in the balls and the fight ins’t stopped, but it could have effected the outcome of the fight, wouldn’t that be a cheap win?
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
so are you saying we should ban inside leg kicks also? Those can turn into nut shots, just like elbows can cause cuts.
that's a strawman
my only point with that illustration is that just because the cut didn’t end the fight doesn’t mean it didn’t affect its outcome.
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
also, if we’re going to talk about fucking data, maybe instead of sticking your fingers and saying “the data is wrong” you can do something that no one has ever come close to doing, and providing some data that proves that elbows cause cuts.
by Phildo on Mar 14, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He’s not claiming there is. He’s saying pointing at a fanpost that offers a conclusion about stoppages isn’t really a debate ender. It simply doesn’t provide enough information
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn't create a Fanpost claiming anything
you, however did (I think, not sure), why not include your work along with it?
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
i didn’t create one about cuts, i’ve commented on the stoppages, but apparently the goalposts have been moved somewhere else now, I’m not finding that comment again, but the comment has all the numbers of all the fights listed as TKO Cut or doctor stoppage, and it’s a very, very very small percentage of the total fights that have allowed elbows.
well okay
but I don’t think I’ve seen it, therefore my position stays the same (and I’m not trolling).
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
well if this nonsense is still goin gon when I get back from work or this comes up again I’ll find it.
Wow, I’ve never actually seen you lose your cool before. I think I just did.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Things are pretty...
Tense in the Internet MMA Community right now, haha.
It’s like we just found out are parents are splitting up so we’re just getting pissed for the sake of getting pissed.
by Sergio Hernandez on Mar 14, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
"Um, guys..."
“Who’s that dude in the corner shredding my spreadsheets and mumbling about data?”
by Sergio Hernandez on Mar 14, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
naw man
I’ll be cool with a beer in my system, unless you bring up this nonsense again!
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
"Man, this beer..."
“Sure is good. It’s as good as the percentage of fight stoppages due to cuts caused by elbows is small!”
I assume, then, it’d be on.
by Sergio Hernandez on Mar 14, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
My neighborhood is 49.5% portugese, 49.5% brazillian, me, my fiancee, and my bird. It took me 2 years to find someone who speaks enough English to give me a decent haircut, I’m tired of having to go on the train to NYC to go to a bar, you would be a great asset.
dude
that’s seriously hilarious, where do you live? Massachusetts? I think I visited a community there called Little Brazil, it was like walking around here, everyone speaking Portuguese on the streets and all.
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
The answer is clear: Put the bird outside for 2 weeks. Then let him back in. He teaches you Portuguese. Done and done.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Mar 14, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is wise
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com and Bloody Elbow Radio
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Mar 14, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Elbows do give you another form of attack. More forms of attack create more things to worry about, and a bigger likelihood that a mistake will happen, that will allow you to pass . So I think elbows are a good thing.
Knees to a downed opponent helps everyone. You don’t think wrestlers in northsouth have a much better chance to finish with knees?
The more attacks the better IMO. I think knees to a downed opponent would be a great thing for the sport. Personally I know if I am ever attacked, I am looking to get a takedown and go to north south and try to finish the fight with knees to the head. We got a little sample from the Pride fights, and we could see that knees to the head were not the end all be all, but they forced different measures of defense. For every attack, there will always be a counter attack and a defense, so nothing is the end all be all. I think it adds more to the realism, but the injuries sustained from them might not be worth it.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Nick Diaz has argued that allowed elbows on the ground encourages Lay'n'pray.
He has said that without elbows, the fighter on top needs to leave more distance for punching, and that gives the guy on the bottom a bigger oppotunity to escape.
Personally, I like elbows on the ground, and personally, I dislike Nick Diaz, but he might have a point with this one.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
his point is simple;
You posture up on me and now I can gogo your ass. Close tight hard elbow do not help BJJ guys who like to work triangles, mission control or rubber guard.
I do not care what Nick Diaz thinks about, well about anything and I like elbows on the ground. He may have a point, but he has motivation not to like them………STRATEGERY!
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 14, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
For a gogo to work
or most other submissions, you have to break someone’s posture down….not let them posture up. But you do have to posture up to throw a significant shot.
It’s about taking risks. If you throw big, you risk a sub attempt. If you try a sub attempt, you risk getting damaged or passed. Diaz would rather box than play guard so i dont think he was motivated by a desire to “work mission control.”
by RightTriangle on Mar 14, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
You are absolutely right.
My thinking was backwards. I did not explain myself clearly. Posturing up for big stikes leads to greater risk of getting subbed. It’s easier to break posture when they are hips back and chest off of the other body.
Yo explained it much better than I did….Thanks for that.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 15, 2011 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I have an issue with the north south elbows being illegal
but elbow shots to the temple, the softest spots on the skull fine and dandy. completely ludicrous. They should all be leagal
You know Joe, Brandon Vera is considered to be a Heavyweight George St.Pierre because he just comes, comes, and comes again... -Mike Goldberg, UFC 57
Cheick Kongo looks like a cross between Evander Holyfield and pop singer Seal!
Melvin Guilard looks like a little Kevin Randelman!
-Mike "All black people look alike to me" Goldberg, UFC 62/64
Finally.
I always thought Coker would change it but never did.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Good deal
Strikeforce’s stance on elbows was always a little ridiculous.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
Coker built his idea of MMA off of how Japan promoted it. The idea wasn’t ridiculous in Pride to most people, was it?
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Mar 14, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It wasn’t ridiculous in Pride because their lack of ground elbows was more than offset with the inclusion of stomps, ground knees, and soccer kicks.
Unified rules – elbows always was, and always shall be, a craptastic idea.
I agree with the stance you’re taking. I’m saying Strikeforce’s stance on them wasn’t ridiculous. He couldn’t allow stomps/knees/kicks, so he left out elbows too (since they weren’t even allowed over there anyway). He was looking to be different from the UFC and as close as possible to Pride in terms of what the unified rules allowed.
Still a Beer Monster.
http://www.instrength.com
Giving fighters more tools to use in the cage will only help the quality of fights.
It’s also a good step toward moving to allow knees on the ground.
by Kuroko Shirai on Mar 14, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Then allow knees
You wouldn’t even have to allow stomps.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
Wouldn't he have run into sanctioning issues?
ACs aren’t going to care if you’re using the approved ruleset with a few moves disallowed. I don’t know that they’d be fine with a promoter adding things to the ruleset.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, you're both right
Rule set sucks though because I don’t like it and that’s all that matters.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
It was a little out of touch at this point though
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
I never cared about the no-elbows thing
And now that Strikeforce seems destined for “minor league feeder” status, why not keep things the way they are? If you want to spread MMA into different countries and cultures, why not have a league that enforces a less-bloody, more-sportlike version of the rules?
If it seems like everyone around you is an asshole, you are probably an asshole.
Why are elbows less-sportlike?
"All I guarantee is violence" - Wand
i meant it
in regards to the whole “sport with lots of rules” vs “this is what fights are really like” debate.
It’s the same reason some amateur MMA events require shin guards. it’s less realistic but more safe, which makes it more crowd-friendly to some people.
If it seems like everyone around you is an asshole, you are probably an asshole.
I think elbows are here to stay
And if you are going to be running seperate promotions the rules would be as close to each other as they can. Elbows haven’t had people shy away from the UFC product so I doubt it will affect Zuffaforce
"All I guarantee is violence" - Wand
Why not? It's because it makes as much sense as the 12-to-6 elbow rule.
by Kuroko Shirai on Mar 14, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
the rule is an arbitrary line in the sand
that doesn’t mean it’s completely purposeless.
Did you hear the sound of Hamill’s head slamming into the canvas? Jones would have split that dude’s skull open if he kept at it.
If it seems like everyone around you is an asshole, you are probably an asshole.
Should we ban ground and pound?
It can have the same effect, no?
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
He wasn't implying banning anything,
Just maintaining the status quo. I think there is a significant distinction there.
"All I guarantee is violence" - Wand
The status quo was wrong and it's unfortunate it took Zuffa buying the company for some common sense to prevail.
by Kuroko Shirai on Mar 14, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Being wrong in this case is completely subjective
I don’t like the 12-6 elbow rule either, but the one time I saw them in effect they were murdering a guy. It can be argued either way but I agree that elbows should be allowed.
"All I guarantee is violence" - Wand
Here’s the thing, though; Jon Jones was destroying Matt Hamill before he brought those 12-to-6ers down. They were really not that much worse than the other vicious and legal monster elbows being rained down beforehand.
I agree that Hamill was getting beat badly before
although I think the 12-6 were more damaing because he was fully posturing up.
"All I guarantee is violence" - Wand
There is no scientific basis for your opinion.
by Kuroko Shirai on Mar 14, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
You made my point, this is subjective
"All I guarantee is violence" - Wand
Can’t really have an argument against making the rules the same across the board. There is no reason not to have elbows and the rule distinction would confuse fans who are going to jump on the ZUFFA owned Strikeforce now.
"All I guarantee is violence" - Wand
by rockied on Mar 14, 2011 3:43 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
When’s the last time a fight ended via a cut from an elbow? Stevenson-Edwards at UFC 61? This meme that elbows ruin the sport because they end fights early by cut stoppages has always been a false narrative. Very happy to see that Strikeforce will now have elbows on the ground, and excited to see what Overeem can do to his opponents with this new tool.
"Caol Uno was like Mutoh. He developed into a star overseas and then returned to his home country a much bigger deal. Dokonjonosuke Mishima is like Kobashi because they both do moonsaults. Don Frye is like Stan Hansen because they are both fat dumb rednecks with mustaches." - Jonathan Snowden
by RagingNoodles on Mar 14, 2011 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Heres a way to not get cut during training
Wear some fucking headgear.
can't wear head gear
and grapple. can’t train elbows without grappling.
therefore can’t train elbows using headgear.
If it seems like everyone around you is an asshole, you are probably an asshole.
Why can’t you wear head gear while training grappling?
I honestly want to know. I’ve never done any grappling training.
for example, it stops any possibility of escaping a headlock through normal means
imagine wrestling with somebody. now imagine trying to do it with a head as big as a kickball.
If it seems like everyone around you is an asshole, you are probably an asshole.
Heh.
It’s recommended.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s talking about boxing headgear.
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
ear guards
not the same. but many wrestlers refuse to wear them for exactly the reason i stated.
If it seems like everyone around you is an asshole, you are probably an asshole.
you pull your head out of head locks?
Helio Gracie does not approve….nor do your ears.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
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by the-gentle-way on Mar 14, 2011 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
One thing I've seen mentioned before that I think would be interesting:
Holding fights in a ring for some events and a cage for others. Could be similar to the different courts tennis uses in that certain fighters would have a slight advantage or disadvantage based on the fighting area. I realize that’s not going to come around any time soon but I’d like to see it at least explored as a possibility.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 3:48 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
MOAR BLOOD!
And let’s get rid of this gay ass “jew jit soo” shit too.
by Rape Choke on Mar 14, 2011 3:48 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
The sport of MMA is all grown up – it’s time to find a set of rules and enforce them, uniformly across promotional boundaries and state lines.
I disagree. What does uniformity have to do with maturity? I think that MMA is a diverse sport and there is nothing wrong with different variations being practiced in different circumstances.
Google Ron Paul!
Person who hates this change the most?
Shinya Aoki
Shinya has never fought with elbows allowed, and Lyle Beerbohm has some NASTY elbow-based ground & pound that he had to shelve when he signed with Strikeforce. Shinya is going to grab wrist control and think he is safe only to discover that wrist control is like a written invitation to smash his face in with elbows.
Fedro is another one.
I shudder to think what would happened to his tissue paper skin if Bigfoot had been allowed to drop elbows.
Bigfoot does pretty well for himself with those bludgeoning hammer fists it seems.
Brock favors hammer fists as well. When you’re that big, anything you throw is going to hurt like hell.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
It would have been stopped before the third round?
"All I guarantee is violence" - Wand
Remember that scene from Predator?
When he’s cleaning the skull of all remaining tissue so that’s its all bone? That’s the image that came to my mind.
by Forbidden Psychological Technology on Mar 14, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Or Rogers, for that matter
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by Derek Suboticki on Mar 14, 2011 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
That's an interesting point
I don’t know that it’s a game changer, but it’s worth considering when thinking about that fight.
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Bad for the Heavyweight tournament
While I’m all in favor of elbows on the ground, it’s ironic they’re being added in the midst of the heavyweight tournament. In some organizations they don’t allow elbows until the final round of a grand prix so that fights don’t accumulate too much cut damage and have to drop out of the tourney prematurely.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
It's not like its a one night tournament
theres enough time in between fights to heal from cuts. Especially if Barnett advances to the second round.
I can only see ever allowing knees to a grounded opponents head
if the person throwing the knees was on the ground as well. I know kneeing from a standing striker to a downed opponent ain’t exactly common, but it might make the prospect of it more acceptable to governing bodies.
As for what defines a grounded opponent, should be how the NFL does it, anything but your feet and/or your hands touching the ground makes you a grounded opponent.
Go Orange(men)!
They should allow something like “symmetrical 8-points of striking”, i.e. if both opponents are in same phase (ground or standing) they can use [fists, elbows, knees, kicks].
If one opponent is standing and another is grounded, limitations on available attacks are applied (e.g. no kicking or stomping attacks from the standing fighter to the grounded opponent’s head)
And yeah the idea to change the definition would help a lot too, since it’s becoming more common that fighters will put a hand on the ground while stuck in a bad clinch situation.
"since it’s becoming more common that fighters will put a hand on the ground while stuck in a bad clinch situation"
It’s not protecting a fighter, it’s just allowing for the gaming of the rules. NFL has a good definition, let’s go with that.
Oh, and your symmetrical 8-point thing is a little bit of brilliant too.
Go Orange(men)!
Small Error JS
“He has a lot invested a lot in these rules”
Good on Lorenzo. Many people have wondered aloud whether elbows would have allowed Shields to finish Hendo. Personally I don’t think he was going to finish by anything other than a sub that night. But anything can happen and elbow strikes could have made the difference.
Nobody else thinks this line is funny?
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by Richard Wade on Mar 14, 2011 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I was actually just going to post that I think Jake would have stopped him if elbows had been allowed. That fight is one of the main reasons why people call Jake Shields ‘boring’ which I find ridiculous when you think that he finished all eight fights in the run up to Mayhem, six in the first round
I think that’s a misread. You rarely see elbows from the full mount the way Jake held it. The physics makes it pretty hard.
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree. Most finishes by elbow that I’ve seen have come from the opening of a cut, from half-guard (Bones/Vera), and from crucifix.
When you re-watch the Shields/Hendo fight, Shields seems postured up in a way that like JS said, doesn’t seem to allow him to swing down with elbows and maintain his position. Shields grappling is incredible but to get that position and not be able to finish speaks to his punching power more than anything. I think of Thiago Silva’s mount on Houston Alexander when comparing the differences in the punching style, which is definitely not a fair comparison!
Still, Shields mount on Kampmann didn’t allow Jake to show elbows either because Martin’s hip escape to half-guard was so effective.
I think vet fighters in SF will have no problem adjusting
Many have worked for other organizations with different rules. I think it was tougher to go from knees to no knees than to go from no elbows to elbows YES!
Elbows cut but I haven’t seen them used that much to concuss an opponent. It is an awkward strike for that end. This isn’t pro wrestling where you have folks standing there waiting to have an elbow dropped on his head.
Is it David Louiseau who has those sick elbow strikes?
Knees to the head of a man on the ground need to stay banned. I think you can do career-ending damage that way if you treat a down man’s head like you’re laying carpet.
That being said, why don’t more fighter’s go ape-scat with knees to the body when they got a man down? I don’t fight, but I would SO lay into a rib cage if I was lucky or skilled enough to be in top control.
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GSP
Knees to the head of a man on the ground need to stay banned. I think you can do career-ending damage that way if you treat a down man’s head like you’re laying carpet.
Most PRIDE FC fighters did okay in spite of the knees, kicks and stomps to the head. Hell, Sakuraba was absolutely destroyed by knees to the head (a fight that went on far, far, far too long) and he is still mostly hanging together.
people dislikes knees + stomps
due to the visuals, they think they could create a lot of damage because it looks brutal to them, but aren’t basing their opinions on facts at all. MMA also looks brutal to a lot of people, doesn’t make the sport any more dangerous than many other physical sports.
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
Agree.
They are trying to become a main stream sport excepted by the masses. Allowing knees to the head on a downed opponent, soccer kicks, stomps and 12-6 elbows looks way to violent for the common man, to except it as what Zuffa wants.
Jules: Normally, both your asses would be dead as fucking fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shit while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, it don't belong to me. Besides, I've already been through too much shit this morning over this case to hand it over to your dumb ass.
I agree with you,
But Sakuraba is literally falling apart, and I do mean literally. His ear fell off.
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All of those strikes are banned for aesthetic purposes.
However, I’d like knees to the top of the head (think Coleman/Goes) to remain banned even if the other strikes become allowed.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
But knees have no padding
and are potentially harder than fist strikes.
Aesthetically, hammerfists look like crap. A sweet elbow slash looks bad-ass and kind of elegant.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
Mohandas Gandhi
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
Muhammad Ali
"If MMA is like dog fighting, those are some pretty fucking smart dogs."
"I don’t want to lick any butt."
GSP
Same could be said of Thai clinch knees.
Yet they’re allowed because both fighters are standing. It’s a perception thing.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
If you've banned spiking, then it would be consistent
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Never thought of it that way but it's a good point.
Receiving blows to the top of the head is just no good IMO.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if eblows don't "end fights"
they generally force the person on bottom to adjust some how (ie giving up their back, to turn away from the elbows) which opens up the possibility for a sub finish.
Now that’s a stat i’d like to see, how many fights are there that elbows were an “assist” to a sub finish.
In the case of Strikeforce, being different for the sake of being different doesn’t earn you any brownie points — it just earns you fights that go longer or go the distance.
It’s funny because Strikeforce fights have become known for rarely going the distance. Their fights are already entertaining and fun as hell so I say if it ain’t broke dont fix it.
Recently SF has been all about exciting finishes but let’s not forget the Nashville CBS card that featured three title fights (Aoki/Melendez, Shields/Hendo, and Lawal/Mousasi) which all went 5 rounds, spilling 40 mins into the next time slot and ended with the Cesar Gracie team/Mayhem brawl!
I think the finishes lately are more indicative about ‘exciting’ matchmaking more than any differences in fight rules.
New rules mandate refs also start fights the same way
You know Joe, Brandon Vera is considered to be a Heavyweight George St.Pierre because he just comes, comes, and comes again... -Mike Goldberg, UFC 57
Cheick Kongo looks like a cross between Evander Holyfield and pop singer Seal!
Melvin Guilard looks like a little Kevin Randelman!
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by Jonnycaz2.0 on Mar 14, 2011 4:53 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
Is that Cecil Peoples?
"Rather than love, than money, than faith, than fame, than fairness... give me truth."
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1968-1992
Think of how much different fights like King Mo vs. Gegard Mousasi would've been with elbows
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Probably not very different.
It’s not like Mo wouldn’t have gassed if he just could’ve used those damned elbows.
"[UFC]’s a great rush, eh? It makes your sphincter get real tight." - Harold Howard
by lowellthehammer on Mar 14, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Haven't you heard?
Elbows leech away the energy of your opponent and give it to you. That’s why elbows are known as vampire strikes!
Only if you drink the blood
from the cut the elbow causes.
/sarcasm
Otherwise elbows don’t really help to stop a fight
Go Orange(men)!
unified rules
You mean UFC rules, couse by no mean those rules are unified, couse they simply favours wrestlers. No kicks to a downed oponent, and elbows to a downed opponent are rules that favours boring wrestlers, in opositon to the PRIDE/DREAM/SENGOKU rules wich favours jiu-jitsu.
You can kick a downed opponent.
Just not in the head. I really disagree with the whole “no kicks to the head is better for wrestlers@%$” argument.
Kicks to the head favor the person who is on top… which is often a wrestler…
???
The no kick rule clearly favors wrestlers.
You can not kick someone in the head if you are mounted or in guard. You can knee them to the head from side control but to do a soccer kick or stomp you have to be standing.
It’s all about one thing: punishing a missed shot attempt. Youtube some PRIDE videos and you’ll see this clearly changes the game for a striker.
by RightTriangle on Mar 14, 2011 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
This doesn’t just effect people who miss a shot, it also effects people who try to pull guard and fail. Many soccer kicks and stomps are landed on people on their back, not just on their knees.
It wouldn’t just benefit strikers. The knee to the head thing is a very big deal for wrestlers. you seem to be making your whole argument based on the lazy double leg we sometimes see under the unified rules, but elite MMA wrestlers rarely find themselves in a position where they would be vulnerable. Think GSP/Cain.
So sure, some really shitty MMA wrestlers would find less success against people with decent-to-good takedown defense. But the decent-to-good MMA wrestlers would have a whole lot of success kneeing people in the head from side control and with front headlocks.
What are you talking about?
Why does “favoring wrestlers” (if, in fact, that is what the unified rules do) have anything to do w/ the rules being unified? Is this even what you are saying?
/genuinely confused
Just to throw my take in on the elbow debate
If an elbow caused a cut that affected the course of the fight THEN IT DID ITS JOB. Strikes are meant to damage and weaken the opponent. If a fighter is rocked by a knee that causes him to fight tentative and scared for the rest of the fight, then that strike did its job. Same thing with katana-esque elbows. If they cause cuts to disable an opponent then that cut did what it was supposed to do.
On a side note I wish upkicks were allowed and the stupid hand on ground rule was abolished. both severely hamper non-wrestlers IMO.
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by sitnam90 on Mar 14, 2011 6:54 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd if only...
For the Dinosaur Comics signature. Also, I agree with the post but whatever. LESBIANS!
by Sergio Hernandez on Mar 14, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude
Your the only person I’ve come across who knows what Dinosaur Comics is
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
your football analogy
This is not a fair comparison.
The NFL has also made rule changes regarding head contact (helmet to helmet, etc) that can cause head and neck injuries to protect the players even though they knowingly play a violent contact sport. Combat sports like other sports can benefit from revising rules to protect fighters from excessive damage.
> It would be off-putting if certain conferences in college football didn’t allow the forward >pass, or if the ACC decided to outlaw the three point shot in their basketball games.
How about the Octagon in Strikeforce?
I know it’s “business as usual” but the WEC adopted it when it was bought.
Lorenzo said they’ll keep using the hexagon.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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Contributor for CagesideSeats.com and Bloody Elbow Radio
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Mar 14, 2011 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn it I was so excited because when I first read the title
I thought Lorenzo was going to allow soccer kicks. Almost wet my pants for nothing.
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