UFC 128 Fight Card: Jon Jones Is a Statistical Monster. Can Rua Tame the Beast?
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 2:00 PM EDT
in UFC Analysis
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Mauricio "Shogun" Rua has seen a lot in his nine year mixed martial arts career. He's fought the best of the best: Quinton Jackson, Chuck Liddell, and Lyoto Machida all dot a resume that includes nine fights with former champions. But he's never seen anyone like Jon Jones. No one has.
Looking at a snapshot of Jones's career, provided by the amazing team at FightMetric, the numbers are staggering. Jones has landed twice as many strikes as his opponents in a seven fight UFC tenure. He's taken down opponents with an almost 70 percent accuracy rate, one of the best in UFC history. Almost a third of those takedowns were "slams" a takedown that sees a fighter take an opponent completely off both feet before depositing him on the mat. Conversely, no opponent has managed to put Jones on the mat. This includes a collection of great wrestlers like Ryan Bader, Matt Hamill, and Vladimir Matyushenko.
Rua, for his part, has rarely successfully defended a takedown during his time in the UFC. While he was able to control his own destiny much better in the Pride days, injuries have cost him dearly. Shogun's UFC opponents went 12 of 14 on takedowns, meaning almost certainly Jones will put him on his back if he's able to put his hands on him. From there, dangerous ground and pound usually spells the end.
Things seem hopeless for Rua on paper. How can he stand in front of a force of nature and hope to survive? But things aren't, perhaps, as desperate as they seem for the Brazilian. Rua excels in areas where Jones is largely untested - the standup and submission games. Specifically leg kicks. We all remember Rua shredding opponents like Machida with thunderous kicks to the thigh. It's something Jones hasn't yet encountered in the Octagon.
In his entire career, mostly spent battling fellow wrestlers, Jones has faced only 27 leg kicks of which 18 landed. Eleven of those came in his very first fight against Andre Gusmao. He's a complete unknown against a striker of Rua's caliber.
The other place Jones remains untested is in defense of submissions. The Greg Jackson product has never faced a significant submission attempt in his UFC career. Rua, with time to operate on the bottom, will change that. Although he's only won once by submission, his ground game is slick. He'll test Jones, looking for a hole a succession of wrestlers has been unable to locate.
Right now, Jones is a statistical monster. Physically he's a giant as well. Could that strength be a weakness. At 6'4", is the key for opponents to chop Jones down to size? Once on the ground, does a submission expert stand a chance if he strikes quickly? Rua will put these theories to the test and after Saturday night, FightMetric and future opponents may be rewriting the book on how to combat a young fighter who is seemingly unbeatable.
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Jon Bones is more hungry
Rua is too banged up. If Jon was 3 years more experienced, I’d pick him 8 out of 10 times. Now it’s closer.But I still think he has what it takes to pull it off. I would love to see Rashad’s face when that happens.
"Turn yourself not away from three best things: Good Thought, Good Word, and Good Deed" - Zoroaster
catch me if you can @ MMA Answers
I’ve been watching a lot of Jones fights recently and I am surprised how much of his offense comes from the clinch.
no surprise from a Greco kid
who’s 2nd favorite style is judo.
His reach should make him a monster at range but Shogun has a live chance of getting inside on him.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
"Live Chance."
That was the term I had been looking for. It’s so out there that Shogun keeps getting himself in these situations where he has to keep swimming against the current over and over again. If he pulls it off it will be something else.
by Unabomberman on Mar 14, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
someone's getting (T)KO'd here.
No way this hits the judges.
by Body Triangle on Mar 14, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep
FOTY candidate right here folks. Some going to sleep or tapping!
Jules: Normally, both your asses would be dead as fucking fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shit while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, it don't belong to me. Besides, I've already been through too much shit this morning over this case to hand it over to your dumb ass.
I see what you mean there
A 205 unmatched well rounded machine with good cardio and a proving track record of being dominating vs nothing short of a novice yet incredibly effective fighting savant.
If this turns into a battle of attrition I’d be very, very surprised.
by Unabomberman on Mar 14, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m very interested in seeing how Jones uses his monstrous reach throughout his career. IMO, I think Jones is kind of going the wrong route with his striking. He seems to be getting into the fancy stuff a bit too early for my liking. IMO, the reason Anderson is able to do that kind of stuff and play around with new unorthodox things, is because he has already mastered the principles of Boxing and MT. Jones has not shown himself to be a master in anything striking. He’s not even close. He still makes a ton of fundamental mistakes in spite of his amazing reach. I think if Jones went the normal route, and got his basics down more, and in the future played with the fancy stuff, he would be better served going that route.
I think that’s what makes this fight so interesting. Shogun is a vastly superior striker than Jones is. But reach can make up for it, but how much? I don’t even feel that Jones even uses his reach all that effectively either. I mean he’s no lame duck, but this guy is no striker, not at all. Shogun is a real striker. Very dangerous.
It’s amazing that Jones can even be considered a favorite in spite of his technical issues striking, but his up side is so large, and his frame , and size advantage as well, that is really close the gaps IMO…
I wish Jones got himself in a very strict Boxing/MT regiment, and put the fancy stuff away. Things that work on Stephan Bonner, are not going to work on world class strikers. But at the end of the day, Jones is not a striker right now, and he doesn’t need to be to win. But to come full circle, and be the death to all destroyer he is supposed to be, he needs to get the technical striking down. Give this kid a solid jab, and the division is fucked.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Jones acknowledges that striking is not his best weapon. And I’m sure Greg Jackson and company are advising him to fight safe and smart . . . AVOID STRIKING WITH SHOGUN. Keep the plan simple, take him down as soon as possible.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Mar 14, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. Jackson’s is great with the gameplanning, and Jones will follow it. That’s one thing you can count on. Although IMO, I don’t really see guys progressing their striking much through Jackson. I think that’s one of his weak points. I see him allowing Jones to do what he wants, which IMO, is a terrible way to start your striking education. Jones needs to be trained in the arts, and have them down first, before he can move on. Just a freaking jab! Really, that’s all Jones really needs. A dominant jab, and people are in big trouble. This fancy crap will get you knocked out quick …
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Rashad did beat Lidell, a proven striker, to the punch where it counted, though.
by Unabomberman on Mar 14, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Notes, Jackson is not a striking coach.
But Winklejohn(?) and Kru Phil Nurse(MT) are striking coaches. Jones doesn’t have a problem in the coaching department.
To wit (via Twitter)
Ok heading to @thewat to work thai boxing with Kru Phil Nurse
Personally I don’t think a decent jab will be enough to ward off Shogun.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Mar 14, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I agree. No expert here, but Winklejohn hasn’t been able to fix Rashad’s sloppy footwork, and the less said about Keith Jardine’s striking the better.
And then you have the wingers like Leonard Garcia.
All in all, I don’t know that the striking instruction in at GJ’s in NM is quite as good as it is hyped up to be.
by jhf884 on Mar 14, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Didn’t know that. Winklejohns. Thanks guys. Learn something new everyday.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
If Jon Jones developed a jab, watch out.
by jhf884 on Mar 14, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He had problems w/ the frame of Overeem as well in their pervious fight until Overeem completely tired himself out. Shogun had problems getting within the range of his striking.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes.
But so far Jones has shown nothing within the realm of Overeem’s striking, even when at that particular phase of his development when he fought Jones.
by Unabomberman on Mar 14, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah that’s completely true, this could possilblly be the 1st fight we see his true striking ability.
But i feel IMO it might go more like the Vera fight.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
And I meant “when he fought Shogun.”
This fight will either hsow us how good ‘Bones’ striking is, or how good his deffensive/offensive wrestling is that he doesn’t have to use it.
by Unabomberman on Mar 14, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Shogun had problems with Cyrill Diabates length and reach
he basically took the fight down to the ground and stomped him out. IF Hamill and Bader couldn’t take Jones down then I don’t think Shogun would either
by Mohammedini Hussein on Mar 14, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
In all fairness Cyrill’s striking is A LOT better than Jon Jones.
by HaterSlayer on Mar 14, 2011 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Shogun is built to be a bobbing weaving guy. He just doesn’t fight like that. Going against a guy like Jones, you need a Anderson/BJ/Tyson type of bobbing ducking and getting in close. Shogun is more of an in an out MT guy, MT guys aren’t very well known for all of that boxing stuff.
Big reach is a big freaking problem. Alot of guys give the Diaz brothers flack, but it must be seriously hard to trade with those two, as all they do is use their long reach and throw punches in bunches. That’s not easy to deal with at all.
Good thing Jones hasn’t mastered his reach yet, or it wouldn’t even be close.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Shogun is built to be a bobbing weaving guy.
That’s the style he’s constantly using when he’s in striking range
by Str8_right on Mar 14, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Recently since the Machida fights you mean? Or overall? I always find pure MT guys, don’t really incorporate that into their game as much, and really much more on spacing than anything. Maybe I should look more closely.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Most MMA fighters arent truely pure MT strikers since some of the techniques in MT dont translate to MMA. The traditional guard for kicks with the arms outstretched for example. Check out Shoguns fight w/ Chuck. IIRC he employs a lot of side to side movement with the head.
Yep your correct
Shogun does bob and weave, and has really good head movement. But his punches are always looping and never come quite direct IMO. I’m in no way saying their not successful, but if Jones can come straight down the pike then he could win the exchanges everytime.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
The footwork he uses to advance is fucking beatiful.
That MT shuffle step is sick, Ive been trying to emulate it.
Every step he takes moves his head laterally as a result, while constantly moving forward.
I think an oppenent could time it out eventually, and use it to really connect, but he is so in your face all the time it would be next to impossible.
"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."
That’s true. I am going to have to start keeping a better eye on the head movement of MMA guys. I feel that Silva/Penn are so far ahead of the rest of them with their head movement, I almost don’t notice it.
Who would you say utilize the best head movement in MMA today? Top 5 or so?
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes Anderson is head and shoulders above. I mean his effortless head movement against Vitor’s berserker like punches is just very Mayweather esque. It doesn’t make sense for someone to dodge punches like that.
I think that’s gotta be one of the hardest things to incorporate in MMA. Utilizing head movement, when you have to worry about kicks and takedowns. It must be quite terrifying.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I am telling you, once A. Silva gets going, the laws of physics do not look like they apply to him. He pulls out some matrix moves. Stunning to watch when he is on.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
The only thing more impressive is Mayweather. The punches he dodges, I mean, you literally have to slo mo them, because the punches are so fast coming from little guys like that, and then you realize that he has dodged every single one of them. Silva is the best we got, and it is amazing that he is doing that in a place where you can get kicked and wrestled.
It just doesn’t make sense any of this. Anytime I get into a fight, I just walk into them , how ? How can you avoid punches like that? I just don’t get it.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Tennis ball being fired at you is one way your movement, as well as you hand eye coordination.
But most ppl think its a give talent that some fighters have and most don’t.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Not in any order but…
Shogun, The Reem, Frankie, BJ, and Anderson.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
and Bonnar…
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
Bonner the guy that has to get hit a few times to wake up.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha, yea Rashad is good with head movement when he is out of striking range. Lol.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
...
".He still has a ground game that seems heavily dependent on lying still and hoping that his opponent won't notice his very kimura-able arm..."
by dancingChicken on Mar 14, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL!!
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
Ah man I’m giggling like a muhfucka at that gif!
by SentientAndroid on Mar 14, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Willow got nothing on him.
"These are the times that try men's souls" - Thomas Paine
by The One Who Wears The Crown on Mar 14, 2011 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Rashad’s head movement his is o.k at times.
but his problem is that he looks for a that over hand right too much, and doesn’t know how to incorporate a jab well enough IMO. Has to learn how to mix it up better w/ a straight jab.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s 5’11". How many guys is he going to be able to land his jab on? I don’t think his route to victory is going to be the jab at LHW where people have height and reach on him. That’s like saying Tyson should’ve jabbed more. It wouldn’t make sense.
If your saying due to Rashad’s short size, throwing a jab is obsolete than then how else could he set up his overhand right?
With that logic than throwing a leg kick would obsolete as well.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
when has he done it? you mean his counter on Lyoto
thats not it. Shogun usually punch with a wide angle to get his opponent to block so he can get closer
by Mohammedini Hussein on Mar 14, 2011 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but Shogun was grossly out of shape for that fight. He looked horrible. If that version of Rua shows up, he will get crushed by Jones. I am hoping for a 100% healthy Rua. We shall see.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
how much do you think
Shogun can neutralize Jones once they inevitably hit the ground?
i’m thinking it ends for Bones right there.
by Victor Rodriguez on Mar 14, 2011 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this is one of the matchups that make MMA so exciting. We can see alot of ways the fight may end, ( Shogun by SUB TKO KO or Jones by Decision TKO ) and break down how which one is more likely , but at the end of the day, we have no clue how this is going to go. These are the type of matchups that changes your whole week/month etc in anticipation for the event. I can’t even guess who’s going to win, but I’m sure we got this match, and I’m very excited for it.
Jones is such a freak of nature, but Shogun is Shogun, well he might not be. The only thing that puts a damper on the event, is the condition of Shogun, and not knowing if he will be in top shape. But alas, this should be one of the best fights of the year!
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:08 PM EDT reply actions
that only makes it more interesting
it will show what he’s still got, and most importantly for any champion, what he’s made of. you’d have to lack a pulse to not be exited for a match like this. the unpredictability combined with the skill of these two means that the only guarantee we’ll have is that this is gonna be great.
by Victor Rodriguez on Mar 14, 2011 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Jones might be untested by leg kicks because they are not the best weapon to use against an opponent with an 84" reach. The added range given by kicking is lost to his long arms.
People keep forgetting that only a few short years ago Rua was every bit as dominant over even more impressive opposition. But of course we also seem to forget the last two times Rua has come back from injury he hasn’t looked impressive. I fear the same result again which is why I have to pick Jones.
by John Nash on Mar 14, 2011 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Jones might be untested by leg kicks because they are not the best weapon to use against an opponent with an 84" reach. The added range given by kicking is lost to his long arms
absolutely on the money. For Shogun to focus on leg kicks he has to get inside Jones reach. We all know the perfect counter to outside leg kick is a straight right. Lord knows Greg Jackson has prepared Jones for this
Tell that to the Shogun fanboys.
Jules: Normally, both your asses would be dead as fucking fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shit while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, it don't belong to me. Besides, I've already been through too much shit this morning over this case to hand it over to your dumb ass.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 14, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Tell that to the Shogun fanboys.
- fanboy of them all danago.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
So many experts on here
I’m sure Shogun won’t be aware of that if we all know about it…(Irony)
I expect Rua to use his kicks to get in to overhand range. Invite the jab with a kick then BANG…
I can’t see Rua being able to keep Jones down, not in the earlier rounds at least. What i’d really like to see is if Jones can keep Rua down as Shogun is like a fucking ball in a pond…he always bobs back up.
Can’t wait for the fight. If Shogun wins this, its on the feet….
A burning passion from a burning mass reaches up for the sky
by Shoguns Hairy Forearms. on Mar 14, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see Jones as someone who uses his reach appropriately in the striking game...
I think the bigger reason for the lack of kicks thrown against him is his wrestling…you don’t want one foot off the ground against someone who would be hard to stop with 2. It’s interesting to note that most of the leg-kicks faced by Jones came in his first UFC fight, when perhaps his ability to wrestle was unknown.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 14, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Phil Nurse has to have shown him by now the basic counter to leg kick. Hell we could see Shogun go down like Razor Rob did last weekend if he insists on throwing leg kicks.
So, no one who knows the counter to a leg kick, can ever be effected by leg kicks? Got it
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 14, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Not so sure about that, as Shogun has the best kicks in division, and Jones has some of the worst all around striking.
"If it's undisputed, what's all the fighting about?"
by Ephemeral Artery on Mar 14, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
that may be overly harsh
but I think Jones does have some holes in his striking. Strength, size, speed and wrestling have been enough to cover them, but standing and trying to work his reach vs Shogun would be the 2nd worst gameplan he could have. Worst would be to rush forward and throw wildly. :)
I consider myself a softcore fan.
I was definitely using hyperbole, but I was trying to make the point that knowing what strikes to counter with, and countering effectively are two different things.
And I agree, standing with Shogun is just a bad idea for him. Move in, clinch, takedown, safe GNP until he’s tired and then WHAM.
"If it's undisputed, what's all the fighting about?"
by Ephemeral Artery on Mar 14, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
how about knees to the thighs from the clinch?
he’s used that in Pride along with foot stomps. it’s served him pretty well.
by Victor Rodriguez on Mar 14, 2011 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really, because low kicks are not a long range weapon.
Even a guy with a regular reach is able to counter a leg kick. He wasn’t tested by low kicks because he didn’t fight a guy who’s good at using them (barring Vera on his back).
".He still has a ground game that seems heavily dependent on lying still and hoping that his opponent won't notice his very kimura-able arm..."
by dancingChicken on Mar 14, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I read this comment at the exact moment the same thought entered my mind
The part about long straights vs. leg kicks, that is.
by PistonHyundai on Mar 14, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Man, if Rua returns to his reckless style, and Jones does some crazy new stuff...
We could literally be watching a real-life crouching tiger hidden dragon. Or, as I prefer, “Hero”.
Someone needs to run off the cage, grab the opponent with their legs (by their head), whip them around into a slam, and throw a fireball. D, DL,L+XYRB.
That is all.
the big question is the submission game
rua’s gonna be on his back its bound to happen. another thing being forgotten here is that shogun has never really been on his back for any extended length of time against a dominant wrestler, in fact the only wrestlers hes ever fought are randleman, coleman, rampage and chuck.
if shogun’s jiu jitsu cant handle a guy wrestlefucking him to death its gonna be a long long night for him
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
Two of those four wrestlers you mentioned are among the best wrestlers in MMA history. Randleman probably top 5 among wrestlers making the transition for any length.
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Shoguns ability to get up, and savage brawling, could be a very big problem for Jones. I don’t think anyone can hold Shogun for extended periods of time. Has anyone been able to hold Shogun down for an entire round? He just gets up so explosively, he’s a real hard guy to keep down.
What is the term for ability to get up? It’s a major major facet of the game, but I don’t even know how to describe it?
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
noone ever has
but hes never been underneath wrestler in his prime
theres a lot of questions for this fight, i really cant wait till saturday
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
Vera got up. I think Shogun has a chance.
"If it's undisputed, what's all the fighting about?"
by Ephemeral Artery on Mar 14, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
rampage never got him down coleman was 40 something
hes still never been underneath a dominant wrestler for any length of time
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
That’s what I thought. I have never really seen Shogun down for long at all. He’s very good at getting up. And then he just berserkers you after he gets up. That’s gotta be really scary for any wrestler. We know he is going to get taken down, but Jones better not get too comfortable , Shogun will get up I think.
I don’t think Jones top control is anywhere on the level of his takedowns. But man, it’s going to look like Jones is holding a baby when he gets on top. He’s just such a freak.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Randleman was 35 and was 2-4 in his last 6 before the Rua fight. Coleman was 4000 years old
Fan of Tiger 'Makin It Rain' Woods
by B-A-N-A-N-A-S on Mar 14, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
i lied, Randleman was 1-4 in his last 5 and 2-6 in his last 8 before his fight with Shogun
Fan of Tiger 'Makin It Rain' Woods
by B-A-N-A-N-A-S on Mar 14, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
it's not like the people he lost to were a bunch of noobs
he got no breaks during those days, no shame in losing to any of those guys during those days
yo no quiero hacer mas nada
Jones will not be wrestlefucking anyone
His top game is more based on dispatching an opponent quickly with wild strikes than smothering them. It is true that Shogun has spent very little time on his back, but this is largely because he sweeps or submits those who take him down.
Against Randleman, Rua was taken down almost immediately, but he also had his opponent tied up in a dangerous ankle-lock position the second they hit the ground, and ended up pulling off a kneebar when randleman went to kick out of it with his other leg. Jones will need to watch his long limbs in this fight, especially his legs.
he's certainly the anti-wrestleboxer
that a lot of fans hate from the UFC. he’s explosive as fuck, but his ground game hasn’t really been tested against a high-level submission-based fighter with great Muay Thai.
by Victor Rodriguez on Mar 14, 2011 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Jones will get leg-locked or knocked unconscious. He has a sloppy ground game and he’s never really been hit. Shogun has dominant power in his hands and that should be the difference standing. It’s not exactly like Jones is knocking people out on the feet. And his sub defense isn’t good. If Vera had an ounce of intelligence, he would have won their fight. Jones left his arm on Vera’s chest for about two minutes and Vera didn’t recognize it or try for an armbar or anything. Jones’ skinny legs could be his downfall on the ground, as well. Long skinny limbs make it easier for a ground guy like Rua to do damage.
I’m taking Shogun in this fight. Only way he doesn’t win is if the knee injury sapped his greatness.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
i hate this misconception
Bader nailed him good in round 2, Jones walked thru it.
In the video of his MMA debut he looked just fine reacting to strikes
Fan of Tiger 'Makin It Rain' Woods
by B-A-N-A-N-A-S on Mar 14, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol, getting hit by Bader is not equal to getting hit by Rua. If Rua lands flush and rocks Jones, it is over. Rua’s knees are brutal. Just ask Rampage.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
Notes:
- Rampage took a lot of punishment, because he can. Also note, ’Page took the fight on short notice, something he vowed to not do again.
- You can not compare the striking power of Bader and Shogun. Bader has proved that he has power in his hands, so did Shogun and for that matter, so did Hamill, Jackson and Rashad Evans. Can you really say that Matt Hamill has more power than Rashad Evans? No, you can not. We simply don’t know.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Mar 14, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jones losing to Shogun here does not derail the hype train IMO. You don’t manhandle wrestlers like that, and lose your hype. No one has ever seen the type of manhandling that Jones has done. He held Ryan Bader like a freaking baby. It’s disgusting. But yea, if people think that Jones is some magical end all be all of MMA, he’s not there yet. But the kid is totally talented, and it’s certainly not all hype…
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
There is no HYPE!
It was a HYPE train After the Vera fight. Once he killed Bader that should be all the proof that he is legit!
Jules: Normally, both your asses would be dead as fucking fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shit while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, it don't belong to me. Besides, I've already been through too much shit this morning over this case to hand it over to your dumb ass.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 14, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hell, once he did that to Hamill I was convinced. You don’t just see other men do things like that to Matt Hammil.. When I saw that, I knew it was all over.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Completely forgot about Hamil. No one has made some look more like a complete Bitch then Jones did to Hamil. It reminded me Of Forest vs Silva. A man fighting a boy
Jules: Normally, both your asses would be dead as fucking fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shit while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, it don't belong to me. Besides, I've already been through too much shit this morning over this case to hand it over to your dumb ass.
That’s how I always feel when I watch Bones. A man fighting a boy. It’s not even fair. The way he just manhandles people, it’s unreal.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Jones does make his opponents look like that though. It’s a very rare thing. I wouldn’t go so far as to say they look like bitches, I prefer the term babies, or something like that, but he does have a point Shelky. Jones manhandling is just on another level. Jones manhandles people like how we expect Brock to, but can’t.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He has to armbar a T-Rex, eat a bowl of pasta, juggle four grenades, and perform thirteeb cartwheels… …all at the same time, otherwise he’s still pure hype to me.
by Unabomberman on Mar 14, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you for making that statement RJshock 305.
Jon has proven time and time again that he is legit. He’s still undefeated in my books.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
No Prob, been trying to say that for a while man. You dont destroy everyone you fight and still be a HYPE train, if you think so then its just ignorant!
Jules: Normally, both your asses would be dead as fucking fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shit while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, it don't belong to me. Besides, I've already been through too much shit this morning over this case to hand it over to your dumb ass.
There’s people who just want their fighters to be something special but at the same time be the exact kind of humble they want. Otherwise they’re dicks and full of themselves.
by Unabomberman on Mar 14, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Koscheck, Bisping, Mir (god love him), Sonnen...these guys are dicks
Jon Jones is not
You know Joe, Brandon Vera is considered to be a Heavyweight George St.Pierre because he just comes, comes, and comes again... -Mike Goldberg, UFC 57
Cheick Kongo looks like a cross between Evander Holyfield and pop singer Seal!
Melvin Guilard looks like a little Kevin Randelman!
-Mike "All black people look alike to me" Goldberg, UFC 62/64
Hell, even Mir I wouldn't call a dick. Othe rthan say dumb thinge he doesn't mess with anyone.
by Unabomberman on Mar 14, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah he’s kinda of learned to keep his comments to himself after getting his so called worldly BJJ skills negated by Brook in their 2nd fight.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Jones is untested against top tier fighters though. Bader is not an elite fighter, nor is Bonnar, Matyushenko or Vera.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
Bader not an elite fighter. Beating Lil Nog, and being a top ten LHW (top five at the time of the fight) Is not considered elite to you?
Jules: Normally, both your asses would be dead as fucking fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shit while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, it don't belong to me. Besides, I've already been through too much shit this morning over this case to hand it over to your dumb ass.
Bader gave Monitouro fits. Are you implying Minotouro is not elite?
by Unabomberman on Mar 14, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, he was borderline elite in his prime but definitely not elite now.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
And how do you gauge that?
He was coming off a pretty cool win streak. What tipped you off? His performance against Brilz? He either had an off night or he has a rough spot against wrestlers; either way your argument holds little substance going by the numbers alone.
by Unabomberman on Mar 14, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, you make a good point. I was mainly going by how he was looking slower and slower to me with each fight. The Brilz fight was BS. I thought Brilz won that fight. Lil Nog has great skills but he is looking VERY slow now. “Almost” losing to Brilz and then losing to Bader is telling. I see a fighter on the decline. I could be wrong though.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
Nog
was not “borderline” elite. He was absolutely elite. I don’t see him being slower, the Nog BJJ style isn’t suited to the Unified Rules.
Why I never joined a frat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-KNVrZaN8M
"Don’t quote old fucks to me" – Brent Brookhouse
"A samurai would bite your cock off if you tried that shit on the battlefield." - Kid Nate
by Chris Barton on Mar 14, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
What?
Vera is a proven striker that w/ legit BJJ skills, who he controlled on the ground w/ ease.
Matyushenko and Bader were both guys wilth steller wrestling ability, before they lost to Jones.
Bonner is as equal as fighting Chuck was for Shogun IMO. 2 guys with not many fights left under their belt.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
This^
People forget that before shogun fought Machida he beat a washed up Liddel and Coleman and got a title fight. Where these elite fighters to deserve a title shot HELL NO they werent!
Jules: Normally, both your asses would be dead as fucking fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shit while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, it don't belong to me. Besides, I've already been through too much shit this morning over this case to hand it over to your dumb ass.
Ok, I think this is more about semantics. When I say elite I mean among the best few in the world. I think Lil Nog was elite in Pride days, but today he has slipped a lot.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
I just think, that it’s styles make match up’s IMO.
Theirs just certain fighters that can stylisticly preform better against certain talent, reguardless of their opponents winning record.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Jones is untested against top tier fighters though. Bader is not an elite fighter, nor is Bonnar, Matyushenko or Vera.
So it went from top tier to Elite? What do you want him to do beat everyone LHW to earn your respect. Shogun didnt even fight top tier competition before he got his shot.
Jules: Normally, both your asses would be dead as fucking fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shit while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, it don't belong to me. Besides, I've already been through too much shit this morning over this case to hand it over to your dumb ass.
I am not bashing Jones, and he has fought some good fighters. I don’t think they are top tier or elite though. The top tier guys at LHW are Rashad, Rampage, and Rua IMO. Just my opinion.
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
So
Machida, Forrest, and Bader all top ten ranked LHW arent Top Tier to you?
Jules: Normally, both your asses would be dead as fucking fried chicken, but you happen to pull this shit while I'm in a transitional period so I don't wanna kill you, I wanna help you. But I can't give you this case, it don't belong to me. Besides, I've already been through too much shit this morning over this case to hand it over to your dumb ass.
But you have no way of knowing unless you see the guy making mistakes he didn't use to make.
And so far the guy kept winning, even if we account for a hail mary gift against Brilz.
by Unabomberman on Mar 14, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
It's crazy that no one has attempted a submission on Jones yet
Part of that is obviously due to who he’s fought so far in the UFC. I think it also speaks to the fact that when Jones takes some one down he’s immediately puttng pressure on them by advancing his position and/or inflicting damage.
Ryan Bader attempted a submission on Jon Jones
The stats or Snowden is incorrect.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Mar 14, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Significant submission it was termed. I will update as such.
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah a one armed guillotine…
I didn’t think Jones was to fearful of Bader pulling it off.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Against Vera he left his arms on display for most of the fight.
"If it's undisputed, what's all the fighting about?"
by Ephemeral Artery on Mar 14, 2011 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Vladi
Tried an armbar too
Legendary lay-up Jordan with the right-left switch.
Hang time, Hand glide, Stir fried, Chinky-eyed, Shanghai
by AndersonSativa on Mar 14, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
That length may hurt Jones if Shogun goes for one of his leglocks. That’s the biggest threat if you ask me.
"Rather than love, than money, than faith, than fame, than fairness... give me truth."
Chris McCandless A.K.A. Alexander Supertramp
1968-1992
His arms are too...
During the vera fight while Bones was in Vera’s guard he had his arms out straight…Rogan said he was ‘begging to be armbarred.’
I could see a Shogun armbar from the bottom.
Yeah Rogan says a lot of things.
Not many guys can accomplish a successful triangle from their guard, while getting pummled by elbows and punches.
I really havn’t see Shogun throw on triangle. He mainly uses his guard to get back up to his feet and to sweet similar to BJ Penn IMO.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I said armbar,
and…Bones wasn’t GNPing Vera to oblivion…he was pretty stagnant for a bit until he threw THE elbow that crush Vera’s face.
Either if Vera was looking for an Arm or Triangle.
Not manying guys work of their back like that. Shogun usually works off his back to look to get up or to sweep for top position IMO.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
That's true....
Shogun doesn’t wait to get up either…he got up very quickly from under Machida both times.
Jones needs to be very careful of the sweep, Shogun on top is frightening and we haven’t really seen Jones on his back.
Gameplan
It was part of the plan to let Vera get wrist control. Greg Jackson noticed he likes to get wrist control and he said that would leave him open to elbows. So he left his arms out, Vera grabbed them and Jones broke his face.
by HaterSlayer on Mar 14, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Jones leaves an arm out like he did with Vera, I believe that Rua will be on top of it. And I agree with xfreekx, Jones actually did very little GNP until the hellbow that broke his face to smithereens.
"If it's undisputed, what's all the fighting about?"
by Ephemeral Artery on Mar 14, 2011 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
that was a full year ago...
lots of improving has been done in that time. Also, there are many instances- Kendall Grove vs. Maia comes to mind- where observers (including coaches) are screaming for their fighter to do something, but the fighter’s feel is telling him to do something different (Grove knew that Maia was trying to bait him into performing the techniques that his coaches were yelling). I remember Jones saying that they knew that Vera always grabs wrist control from the bottom in a way that leaves him susceptible to the elbows… point is, that the reality to the observer is often different than the participant.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 14, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah that’s true, Vera is one of the few LHW in the UFC that grab wrist control.
I can’t really remember a fight where i witnessed Shogun grabbing wrist control.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Mar 14, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Another huge question...
is how good is Shogun at defending from the North-South position? Jones seems to be in this position at least once a fight, and against Bader he demonstrated the ability to use his freakish arms to find chokes from there. I feel that how Shogun defends this will play a big role in the fight.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 14, 2011 2:34 PM EDT reply actions
good point
and if Jones chokes Rua out i will fucking choke myself out watching
by kaptenstofil on Mar 14, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
haha you guys are silly as fuck lol!
by SentientAndroid on Mar 14, 2011 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
The thing with Jones, is that damn side control. It’s so freaking dangerous. I mean Jones getting in side control is damn near like anyone else getting in mount. The good thing is, I think Shogun has a better chance slipping out of side control, than anywhere else. Those explosives " get ups? " work well from side control.
Can anyone please tell me what getting up, is referenced as?
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:37 PM EDT reply actions
Not really a sweep. A sweep is more of a reversal from what I understand. You are on bottom, then you sweep, and now your on top. I’m talking wrestling. Like fuck you, I’m getting up and punching you in the face.
Chuck Lidell , Keith Jardine both used it well. It was very difficult to hold them down. That skill, is so underrated it laughable. The ability to get up, is huge. And some guys, just refuse to stay down. If you have this ability and not good takedown defense, it’s not really a problem. IE Shogun.
In wrestling, takedowns don’t even really count unless you establish control. So if you get taken down and pop right back up, it should mean little to nothing, and makes fighting that guy very dangerous..
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuck you, I’m getting up and punching you in the face
Sounds like a perfect name to me.
by xfreekx on Mar 14, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Haha hell yea! I like that as well.
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s it. Lol. I do kind of like my definition better though haha..
by MichaelJonathan1985 on Mar 14, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Gonna be a great fight
Can’t wait.
Don't let my support confuse you, I am in fact a fan of the Giants.
by tito (eight and oh) on Mar 14, 2011 2:48 PM EDT reply actions
Deja Vu
“after Saturday night, FightMetric and future opponents may be rewriting the book on how to combat a young fighter who is seemingly unbeatable.”
Lyoto Machida was a young fighter who won 17 fights without taking damage and Shogun knocked him out in 3 minutes. The data should be in FightMetric and the book has definitely been written.
Chapter 1:
Hit them on the head.
by toughaintenough on Mar 14, 2011 4:07 PM EDT reply actions
Lyoto is 32. Everything else you said is right on.
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 14, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
My bad.
I’m 25 and look older than him. Gotta drink some piss and eat crow as well. Ugh
by toughaintenough on Mar 14, 2011 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
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