ESPN's Pound-for-Pound MMA Fighter Rankings
by Nick Thomas on Mar 11, 2011 9:34 AM EST
in UFC News
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Print1) Anderson Silva - UFC
2) Georges St. Pierre - UFC
3) Jose Aldo - UFC
4) Frankie Edgar - UFC
5) Mauricio Rua - UFC
6) Dominick Cruz - UFC
7) Cain Velasquez - UFC
8) Jon Jones - UFC
9) Jake Shields - UFC
10) Gray Maynard - UFC
The voting panel for these rankings consists of ESPN.com writers Josh Gross, Franklin McNeil and Brett Okamoto, MMA Live host Jon Anik and ESPN.com editor Darius Ortiz.
MMA Live is joined by new Strikeforce light heavyweight champion Dan Henderson and Strikeforce middleweight Tim Kennedy. ESPN's inaugural pound-for-pound rankings are also unveiled.
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wow....
anyone from the UFC they didn’t want to put on this list?
by T.P. Grant on Mar 11, 2011 9:15 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
Who would you propose from outside the UFC?
Melendez? Jacare? Alvarez?
Those are fair, but you have to realize that aside from Gil, none of them have recent top 10 wins.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:19 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Well,
I’d dispute that his record is better than Aldo, but you have a good point. Gil probably deserves a P4P slot, over Jones IMO
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
maynard is undefeated
with a win and a draw with the champ. also has a win over kenny florian. so i don’t agree.
Nah man.
Guida hasn’t ever cracked the top 10, I don’t think.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
He's always been on the cusp
If he can keep winning he will soon enough.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
I actually think Joe Daddy was ranked at the time.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
Can't believe I digged this up
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/10/30/650249/bloody-elbow-october-mma-m
Joe was ranked 12 at the time.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
I'm a HUGE Maynard fan
He was my wrestling coach at Xtreme Couture.
That said, his signature wins are over Edgar & Florian. Which are good, but not as quality as Gil’s wins over Aoki, Thomson, & Kawajiri (even if I don’t think he deserved the decision in that fight).
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
I would put a win over Edgar far above a win over Thomson, and at least as good or not better than Thomson and Kawajiri.
Gray's win over Edgar
at the time was < Gil’s win over Thomson at the time.
The Edgar win was definitely quality, but Frankie wasn’t ranked at the time like Josh was.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
Just because of rankings. Do you think that Edgar 3 years ago would have lost to Thomson? I think that people give too much credit to past rankings, especially in a division as scattered as LW.
I do.
Thomson, prior to breaking his leg, was a fucking animal. Very diverse and potent striking game, great grappling.
I think he would’ve edged Frankie at the time.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, let’s better rely on how people remember a certain fighter’s skill level at the time! :)
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Source?
You do realize that he’d just been knocked out by Hirota, and subbed by Uno just a year before their rematch, right?
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions
Wins over Florian, Diaz, Miller and Edgar > Wins over Kawajiri, Thompson, Aoki, and Ishida (as well as a loss to thompson, and Ishida)
Just my opinion
You have to consider
Aoki was ranked #2, Thompson & Kawajiri were top 10. Although I don’t really think he deserved the decision over Crusher, maybe he’ll rectify that in the rematch.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
aoki was ranked #2
but do you really think that at that time, he could have beaten edgar and florian? i personally think they would have wiped the floor with him.
just curious. i’ve argued with people enough on this thread for one day.
i could see gil in the #10 spot but i hardly think maynard in there instead is a travesty. the big surprise is jones but his potential combined with his accomplishments make it not horrible, even if i wouldn’t have had him there.
It doesn't matter how a fighter theoretically matches up with other fighters.
Rankings are solely based on the quantity & quality of a fighter’s wins/ losses. Giving special consideration to what happened recently.
I love Maynard and absolutely I think he’s one of the top fighters in the world. Jones is great as well, but i’m apprehensive because he still hasn’t fought a guy like Shogun. That fight will tell us alot.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not gonna argue with their 1-6, maybe the order a little
but 7-8.
I think Gil should be on in front of Maynard, I’m iffy on having heavyweights om the P4P list right now, and Jon Jones being on there is putting the cart before the horse.
And were is Jon Fitch? Easily the #2 170lber
Fitch can't get any love.
And I think that’s fair to put Gil ahead of Gray.
That said, Gray has a ridiculously good record.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
Maynard way better than Gil.
I’ve watched Gray since he was in high school, and he is better at Gil in every area. He has ko power in both hands, solid boxing, and all-American caliber wrestling.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 11, 2011 10:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Solid Boxing
This made me LOL
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
Really?
I think Gray has great hands. He made Frankie his bitch in that first round, and has outstruck several really good fighters.
It’s not just his offensiver technique, either- his defense is good. Very good head movement, solid footwork, etc. Boxing isn’t just throwing sexy looking combos.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
He also went toe-to-toe with Nate Diaz, who has some pretty solid boxing, and gave as good as he got.
I thought he edged Diaz out.
Diaz landed a higher volume, but I thought Gray’s power made the difference. It’s all about quality x quantity.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
From your screen name
could you have wrestled with, or at the same time as Maynard?
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
yes.
Without telling the world, its easy to figure out who I am. I coach Illinois now, I won my title at Penn St in 2000. I was the 1st national champ of the century.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 11, 2011 10:30 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
That's really cool man
Good to see a hardcore wrestler frequenting an MMA board too.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
Gray teaches wrestling at Xtreme Couture
and I was able to take some classes with him. He’s a very good teacher, knows his stuff for sure.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
thanks.
I’m on junkie all the time. A lot of good guys that know there shit over there. I love the fantasy fighting.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 11, 2011 10:39 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Are the Junkie boards any good?
I’ve literally been banned a bajillion times over at Sherdog, I don’t like their posting parameters.
Obviously BE’s my home, but I like checking out other places too.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
i like them.
There fantasy fighting league is by far the largest on the interwebz.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 11, 2011 11:01 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Interesting
I’ve never tried that out, maybe i’ll give it a looksie.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
JH?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry
but 2000 was the last year of the 20th century. 2001 was the first year of the new century.
I’m done being an asshole now.
BOOSH
Ahhh
The old “Anno Domini” argument. I always forget about that.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
watch the clip.
I was introduced as the 1st champ of the new millennium.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 11, 2011 3:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
What clip?
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
i have matches on youtube
My national championship match is on there.
by psuwrestler99 on Mar 11, 2011 10:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Maynards boxing is terrible, end of.
Throw any elite or good striker in there with Maynard and he would get murdered standing
And no, frankie isn’t an elite striker/boxer either.
If you're having fight problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but a Fitch ain't one.
They both have very functional/ applicable striking skills for their MMA game
Obviously Gray would get schooled by Sergio Martinez, Giorgio Petrosyan, or Buakaw under their respective combat sports.
For MMA, in the context of his overall style, Gray’s hands are good.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
Draw?
I think not, BJ just beat Fitch so not so easy.
The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.
- Sun Tzu
by LUCKYME1321 on Mar 11, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
co-#2
To be the co-#2 man you have to draw with #2 man.
Bj- Co #2 w.w. in the world.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Mar 11, 2011 11:11 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Easily?
He just had a draw with a LW in his last fight, and he hasn’t faced much top competition. I’d like to see how he’d do against Condit, Koscheck or even a less-rusty, out-of-shape Alves. Not to mention Shields, who has a much better resume overall. No. 1 is clear at WW, but the rest of the division is pretty hard to rate.
He won’t fight Koscheck, he’ll grapplefuck Alves and Condit with ease. There, I answered it for you. And as we all know,
Shields was hella impressive against Martin Kampmann
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
What about Nick Diaz? I think he is a fringe top 10 P4P fighter.
by Johnnynumber5 on Mar 11, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
no......um.....he isn't even close.
If he beats Daley he can finally solidify the fact that he is a top 10 WW. After that fight he really has no one else ranked to fight. He hasn’t fought anyone ranked in the top 10 in ages. He MAY be a top 10 p4p fighter, unfortunately we will probably never know.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly,
I think Rashad should be on there instead of Jones and Fitch should be instead of Shields.
Does the fact that you’re challenging the champ automatically give you a boost on here? Rashad’s just not challenging because of the injury and we all know Fitch is in the “dog house.”
You mean there's other mma beside's the ufc?
"He embodies this cultural shift that we have and it really started with Dr.Dre selling us NWA and selling us the culture of gangster is cool, Yeah gangster is cool in a way to watch a movie. But being gangster is just being a little kid. And starting a big brawl because, What? I talked some shit to your homie, that is just ghetto and that thing is what embodies what is wrong with america right now" Jason "mayhem" Miller on Nick Diaz
well
it is striking, but before you imply they’re biased, you should say who isn’t on the list that you think belongs there.
fedor? not after two straight losses. i wouldn’t put any of SF’s heavyweights on this list, though the eventual winner of the tournament (if there is one) will have a decent claim.
gilbert melendez? someone from bellator? japan?
feel free to speak up.
I have a few
That IMO belong there.
Gil should be there for sure.
Hioki I think is a good choice
I dont like him but Nick Diaz
Alvarez also should be there.
Shields should not be there nor should Gray or jones
"He embodies this cultural shift that we have and it really started with Dr.Dre selling us NWA and selling us the culture of gangster is cool, Yeah gangster is cool in a way to watch a movie. But being gangster is just being a little kid. And starting a big brawl because, What? I talked some shit to your homie, that is just ghetto and that thing is what embodies what is wrong with america right now" Jason "mayhem" Miller on Nick Diaz
I agree about Jones
And Hioki/ Diaz are good choices, but as much as I like Alvarez, he doesn’t deserve a p4p spot.
His only ranked win in the last few years was over Kawajiri. He’s had some good wins in the meantime, but Kikuno/ Huerta/ Neer/ Imada aren’t ELITE. They’re good, but not top 20 even.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
Diaz is a hell of a fighter, but he has NEVER beaten a top WW, which is the weight class in which he fights. He beat two shitty MW’s in Smith and Shamrock, 1 top LW in Gomi, and no top of the food chain WW’s.
Yeah
You can’t really put him on the list in good faith.
He beats Daley, then we can start talking.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Shields should not be there nor should Gray or jones
I agree about Gil possibly replacing Maynard, and that Hioki is one of a handful of guys who deserves the spot they handed to Jones.
But Diaz over Shields?
Seriously?
Fitch over Shields I can get behind. But Diaz? Nick doesn’t even belong in the conversation.
Gray shouldnt be on here. He beat Edgar before he became a beast. Jones still to early to put him in the top pound for pound list. His only top ten win was Bader which was big but one win does not put you on this list.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Gray absolutely should
He’s undefeated, and has some really quality wins- Florian, Edgar, Miller, Siver.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
The only significant win is KenFlo.
I dont dislike Gray But i just dont feel he should be top ten. Fitch should still be on the top ten list in the last 3 spots somewhere, not Gray.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
I think Gray has better wins than Fitch,
and is overall a better fighter.
Fitch got mauled by the champ in his division, whereas Gray won a clear decision, and nearly finished the champion of his weight class.
Not saying that Edgar = GSP, but I think Maynard is a better fighter.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
Better wins.
Fitch has beat Thiago Alves twice, no one in LW has his kind of striking. Diego, and Paulo Thiago. saying Maynard is a better fighter I think not. And No he didnt win that fight he only one the first round and stole the third with that takedown. Otherwise he got beat to the punch everytime by Edgar and, Edgar only got takedown once. When Gray fights a better striker then him and cant get them down he does bad.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
You can't credit Fitch with the Diego win
and then discredit Gray’s win over Edgar.
Gray landed some bombs on Frankie, and manhandled him with takedowns.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Im listing his quality opponents.
beating Deigo in 2007 and Fe in 2008 does NOT put you in the pound for pound list in 2011. Edgar manhandled him three years ago yes. However If you were to say he manhandled him in there last fight I would ask you which fight did you watch, or did you just replay the first round for 25 minutes. Edgar tooled him standing landed more takedowns (Gray got one in the third maybe another) and even got a slam in the second. If anything Edgar proved that he has evolved as a fighter way more the Gray. Jon Fitch has fought tougher competition then Gray and should be on this list instead of him.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
I thought Gray won the rematch
He did more in that first round than Frankie did in the whole fight. 10-7 round easily, IMO.
47-46 Gray.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
You do know that Fe
Landed 24 more significant strikes Gray did through out the whole fight. Both got three takedowns. Edgar went for 2 sub attempts while gray went for one.
Still think he did more then Edgar?
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Oooh
and here come the fightmetric statistics.
Yes, I know that Frankie landed more shots overall than Gray. However, Gray knocked Frankie down like 5 times in that first round. It was a one side, absolute ass whooping. 10-7 all the way. I also thought that Gray won the 3’rd round.
Frankie won the 2’nd, 4’th, and 5’th. I give him props for coming back strong, but I think Gray won the fight based on the strength of the 1’st round. I couldn’t care less about takedowns and sub attempts, unless they’re damaging (IE a slam, or a sub that’s actively doing damage, like Dos Anjos’ 2nd round calf slicer on Tyson Griffin).
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
Only 2 knockdowns my friend. Also if takedowns didnt matter then how does Gray win over 80& of his fights? First round was a 10-8, a 10-7 would be Gray on top of Fe for 5 minutes and doing nothing but bashing his face in. He only stormed Fe for around 2 minutes. People forget about that.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
2 fightmetric knockdowns.
His legs were rubbery the whole round, and he fell on his face countless times. Gray was on him the whole time, mauling him with shots.
For reference, I also consider Carwin/ Lesnar round 1 to be a 10-7 round.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
See here is my problem.
You keep saying it was the entire round when it wasnt. It was not five minutes of Edgar getting killed.Gray was on him for a minute and 42 seconds, not even two minutes of swarming and you consider that a 10-7?
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Absolutely.
He made Frank look foolish. 10-7 easy, Frankie did nothing that round.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
ok.
So in any fight where someone gets swarmed for 1.42 is automatically a 10-7. Guess were going to agree to disagree cause I dont see how out of five minutes Gray swarms him for not even 2 minutes and is granted a 10-7.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 11:13 AM EST up reply actions
When that "swarm"
entails that one fighter repeatedly drops, and comes extremely close to finishing his opponent on multiple occasions- yes. I consider that a 10-7.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
I consider that a 10-8. 10-7 would have to be the entire first round he is swarming him not less then half.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
To each their own.
I only consider what the 2 fighters accomplished in the round. The amount of time that certain things take place have little relevance in my opinion.
Very simple here- quality and quantity of damaging strikes (and sometimes takedowns/ near submissions).
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
To each their own.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry man, but you're in your own world.
“here come the fightmetric stats”
LOL! Yeah, let’s not let FACTS get in the way! I’d like to know what other rounds you’ve scored a 10-7. Any you can think of?
Like I said
Maynard/ Edgar & Carwin/ Lesnar round 1 are the most high profile examples I can think of.
Maybe Rivera/ Quarry round 1? I remember Jorge buckling Nate quite a few times there.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
I can't remember Rivera/Quarry.
But I think you should go over the REAL judging rules a bit. Makes you look like a egotistical maniac when you score by your own rules, man.
Well
I do a bit of both. The actual scoring criteria are fine, but the way judges interpret them these days is bad.
I’ve been working on a fanpost about the whole issue, should be done soon.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
As for Fightmetric
Yes, it’s useful. But it’s no substitute for actually watching the fight. Anyone with half a brain can watch Gray dunking on Frankie over and over again, and recognize that he won that round big.
People use Fightmetric as their entire argument sometimes, instead of what it is- a supplement.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
I find it hard to believe that....
…someone would watch a fight and then do a complete flip-flop after looking at fightmetric. Unless of course they’re insanely biased, but fightmetric lets reality set it. I’m not saying forget about watching the fight and just use fightmetric. I’m saying that both make an amazing combo and that fightmetric has facts. Facts that can trump human error and misconceptions.
I agree
Like I said, Fightmetric & Compustrike provide supplemental evidence.
They just show the raw #’s for what you see. However, the whole “significant strikes” thing can be pretty nebulous. A clean jab can be scored the same as a clean power punch.
They used to denote power shots & jabs, I wish they would’ve kept those, and added the “significant strikes” category.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
I never discounted jabs
And you know the Koscheck example is asinine. GSP landed a huge volume of hard jabs.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions
Right, HARD jabs.
I’m guessing fightmetric puts them under significant strikes and leaves soft jabs out of them.
I like that better than grouping all jabs together. Don’t you?
I’m down with significant strikes being labeled significant. Makes sense to me. As for devastating power shots……..well I think we can notice those on our own while watching the fight.
I agree
I’m just talking about people who didn’t even watch the fight, and use the fightmetric as their be all end all.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
I haven't really seen many of those people.
Who hasn’t seen a fight and strongly argues a result based on fightmetric alone?
Same issue. If Carwin dropped Lesnar early in the round and stayed on him the entire round with Lesnar doing nothing at all, that is a 10-7.
R1 or either fight was not close to a 10-7. R1 or R3 of Anderson/Sonnen is closer to a 10-7 than either of those.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
Question-
Think of it like this- if Maynard or Carwin got a 10, that means they received an A+ score. 100% on the exam.
Comparitively, could you really say that Frankie or Brock earned an 8 out of 10, or 80%? I even think that a 7 out of 10 (70%) is generous.
Here’s my scoring criteria, for reference.
10-10 for when there’s no clear winner in the damage or control departments. Say, no significant strikes are landed standing, and a fighter pulls guard or takes his opponent down and lands in his guard, where neither man is able to generate any significant offense. Or, no significant strikes are landed, and the 2 combatants are just clinched against the fence.
10-9 for when one of the combatants exerts more damage or control, but breaks even in the other department. Say, one guy lands more strikes, and holds his own grappling. Or both guys land the same amount of strikes, but one guy is dominating the grappling.
10-8 for a round where a competitor clearly does more damage and controls the action better. Hits/ stuffs takedowns, keeps/ closes distance at will, passes guard or relentlessly smothers the top man with his guard, and lands more strikes standing/ on the ground/ in the clinch.
10-7 for a round with the same description as 10-8, except the fighter nearly finishes the other, hurts them badly, repeatedly almost finishes them. I consider the 1’st rounds of Carwin/ Lesnar and Maynard/ Edgar 10-7 rounds, as Gray & Shane seriously hurt their opponents and nearly put them away on multiple occasions, stuffed all their takedowns, and didn’t take any damage.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Not sure where you copied that or who took such liberties with the Unified Rules, but...
From the NJSAC site:
1. A round is to be scored as a 10-10 Round when both contestants appear to be fighting evenly and neither contestant shows clear dominance in a round;
2. A round is to be scored as a 10-9 Round when a contestant wins by a close margin, landing the greater number of effective legal strikes, grappling and other maneuvers;
3. A round is to be scored as a 10-8 Round when a contestant overwhelmingly dominates by striking or grappling in a round.
4. A round is to be scored as a 10-7 Round when a contestant totally dominates by striking or grappling in a round.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
The quoted material were my own criteria.
And are very close to the criteria mentioned.
I would say that Maynard totally dominated Edgar in the 1’st round. He did all the damage and received none, and dropped him/ nearly finished him on multiple occasions.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
Does it not matter that he Dominated him for such short time though?
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
I don't really think it's a matter of "short time"
so much as it’s a matter of what Gray did, and what Frank didn’t do. Gray scored 2 knockdowns and landed many uncontested shots, Frankie landed nothing of consequence the entire round.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll agree it is clearly a 10-8 round, but there is nothing in the URs about damage or near finishes, no matter how many times people claim otherwise.
The “effective striking” criteria, which is what is used to properly judge is:
(e) Effective striking is judged by determining the total number of legal heavy strikes landed by a contestant.Nothing more, nothing less, however much we may wish otherwise…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
The multiple knockdowns and near finishes are fool proof indicators of effective striking.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
I dont get it.
How can you say the ammount of time Gray had Edgar doesnt matter. It certainly does. it means that for 3 minutes no one had done anything considerable.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
You don't get it?
I’m saying that multiple knockdowns, and 2 minutes of Gray doing nothing but beating on Edgar constitutes a 10-7 score, considering that Frank didn’t mount any meaningful offense of his own the whole round.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
There was a 45 second span after the initial knockdown where Edgar did nothing but defend, get back to his feet and survive, then an interlude where no shots landed, then another short burst by Maynard and then it was about even the rest of the way, as was the first 1:15.
There is absolutely no way this qualifies as close to a 10-7. If it weren’t for the 2 knockdowns it would have probably gotten a 10-9 (although still a 10-8 imo, but I score more liberally than most judges).
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
If the range of scores given went down to say a 10-5 (without penalties), then I would agree that was a 10-7 round, but they don’t, and it wasn’t.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
Well
It’s just a matter of opinion. I call it a 10-7.
At any rate, it was no worse than a draw for Gray, and I thought he edged it with the first round.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
The multiple knockdowns and near finishes are fool proof indicators of effective striking.
Except they are not, at least not according to the scoring criteria which is all that really matters. Your opinion (or mine) of their correctness (or lack thereof) is utterly meaningless.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
You don't think
that knockdowns are good indicators of effective striking?
I definitely think they are.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
I agree they are, although even that has to be distinguished by what really rocked a guy and how much was a push/off-balance/footing issue.
Even so, what we think the rules perhaps should say, doesn’t influence what they actually do say.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
It's a matter of common sense
If there’s an obvious knockdown, then that’s a result of effective striking.
Obviously slips don’t count.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
You know your shit
I completely agree, oh yeah and 10-7 most definitely. A LOT of people look at 10-7’s as 10-8’s and vice-versa, 10-7’s are supposed to be fights where the other guy is completely mauled and damn near finished. There’s not too many of those, but Frankie/Maynard2 rd1 (obviously), Carwin/Brock rd 1…possibly, I have to go rewatch it, and Forrest/Anderson rd 1 if Forrest had managed to make it to round 2.
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
10-7 is a perfectly acceptable score, and completely warranted IMO. The problem is that judges hardly even give out 10-8 rounds when they’re deserved, so 10-7 rounds are like unicorns.
The only 10-7 round I can even recall was from Petz/ Morgan (which received a 30-23 score by one judge).
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:55 AM EST up reply actions
You need to rewatch R1 then. First minute+ is completely even, Maynard drops Edgar and swarms/chases him for about 2 minutes, then the last 1:45 is back and forth. This is not remotely a 10-7 round.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
I think he needs to as well. a minute and 45 second ass whooping a 10-7 does not make.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
I think you're putting too much emphasis on the time
and not enough emphasis on what happened during that time.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
That is because you score the round as a whole, not merely the highlights. Even during that minute plus, Edgar was constantly defending himself and getting back to his feet.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 12:49 PM EST up reply actions
Defense doesn't count for a thing in my book.
You don’t score points in basketball by stopping a drive, and you shouldn’t get points in MMA for dodging/ blocking a strike.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't your "rules" say that you get "points" for stuffing takedowns???
by MMAman on Mar 11, 2011 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And the actual rules do as well (under “area control” not grappling). That’s right, didn’t Edgar stop Maynard’s clinch takedown attempt after the initial swarm?
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 1:09 PM EST up reply actions
I was just pointing out his contradiction in saying....
takedowns get points, but defense shouldn’t count for anything.
In a secondary sense, yes.
Stuffing a takedown is exhibiting control.
Damage > control. Control only matters when damage is equal.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
Dude bottom line your only scoring the round from that 1.45sec window.
The rest of the fight was your typical 10-9 round. Also in the swarm Edgar was defending himself. You act like he just left his jaw hanging out for Gray to smash.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
You're right
I am scoring that round by the 2 knockdowns and ~50 strikes he hammered Edgar with, in that 1:45 section of the 1’st round.
Because it just so happens that the most significant action of that round happened in that period.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
I don't have a strong opinion on scoring takedown defense.
The guy going for the takedown is usually controlling where the fight is and is showing aggression, while defending a takedown also shows control by keeping the fight on the feet, and it wins in the grappling department, I would think.
To me
Effective is the key word, when discussing “Effective Aggression”.
If you’re walking forward and landing zero strikes, that’s not effective aggression. If you’re pressing the action, landing strikes, locking up submissions- that’s effective aggression.
I couldn’t care less about takedowns or sprawls, they’re just a means to the end of forcing the action of the fight into the area you want to be.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
I can see both sides.
That’s why I don’t have a strong opinion. An unsuccessful takedown attempt can be effective in that you may be wearing down a weaker opponent and you’re controlling the position in the octagon, as well as neutralizing your opponent, since he has to worry about defending the takedown as opposed to mounting offense.
Sorry, but dominating a 2:15 stretch in the middle of a round, with the first and last part of the round completely even, does not a 10-7 round make.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 11:16 AM EST up reply actions
It doesn't matter how long it lasted
it matters what happened during that time. Gray REPEATEDLY dropped Frankie.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Imagine this.....
Instead of Maynard dominating for less than half the round, what if he dominated for 3 quarters of the round? And since he would’ve also had him groggy and nearly finished, the latter would’ve been a 10-7 round.
It’s all over the map the way people won’t even give Fitch a 10-8 against Penn, but people want to give a 10-7 to Maynard against Edgar.
I gave Fitch a 10-8 as well
He was on top and striking the whole time, but never landed anything nearly as damaging as the 2 knockdowns Gray did.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
But how can it be a 10-8 round if you never even come close to finish the other guy? I’m talking about Fitch/Penn here, Maynard definitely deserved a 10-8 against Edgar as I thought it came close to being finished at least two times. I mean, I can see why Fitch got a 10-8, but I would’ve given him a 10-9 myself for never coming close to finishing.
Thats the rub...
No matter how much we think “near finishes” should count, there is nothing in the Unified Rules to justify this line of thought.
Now, whether there should be is another subject entirely…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Jon scored a 10-8 round
by landing an overwhelming amount of strikes from top position. That fits under the category of effective striking/ grappling.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
I mean yeah but
by definition of a 10-7 round, it’s a round where the fight was close to being stopped…just like the first round in Frankie/Maynard 2…which you just called a 10-8 because it was close to being stopped TWICE. I personally gave Fitch/Penn a 10-9 myself because he was just drubbing Penn with a lot of shots, but I didn’t think any of them were significant, BUT I have no problem with it being scored a 10-8 due to him being on top of Penn for the majority of that round and imposing his will.
I just put more weight on significant/damaging blows over a bunch of Diaz-like peppering shots just to stay busy.
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
Look, if the third round of Fitch against Penn is deemed to be a 10-8 round, then I’m definitely fine with the first round of Maynard/Edgar being a 10-7 round. But I do have a problem saying that both rounds were equivalent, they were not. Maynard came close to stopping Edgar at least twice, with 3 or 4 knockdowns and more solid shots, while Fitch did what he does best, looking dominant while not actually inflicting a ton of damage.
So, either 10-7 for Maynard and 10-8 for Fitch, OR 10-8 for Maynard and 10-9 for Fitch. Anything else doesn’t make sense, in my opinion.
by Shnak on Mar 11, 2011 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly what i'm saying.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying you didn't
Just pointing out how fans are all over the map with this stuff.
I think a 10-7 should be a combo of these 2 rounds in these 2 fights:
QUANTITY AND QUALITY
Quantity- 50ish strikes. CHECK
Quality- 2 knockdowns, several faceplants, numerous clean shots to the head. CHECK
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
I mean quantity as in....
…duration of the round. I think Maynard did enough, quality-wise, to win a 10-8. Quantity-wise, he wasn’t dominating for a long enough duration of the round, in my opinion, to earn a 10-7.
For me
The amount of time spent doing something is a very minor consideration. What’s most important is what actually happened during that time.
Fitch can stay on top of BJ and hit him with a bunch of pitter pat shots all round, but that =/= knocking an opponent down and nearly finishing them on several occasions.
Fitch really wasn’t close to stopping Penn. Maynard was very close to stopping Edgar.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
That's where you're going off into your own little world.
It’s not what you think should win a round that matters. Octagon control is part of judging. Damage is not. Damage can be used as a means of judging effective striking, but it’s not the end-all-be-all.
And there could be an argument made that Fitch was close to stopping Penn. All it would’ve took was for Penn to stop defending himself at any time. There was one point when he was unloading on Penn’s face and I thought it was going to be stopped. But then Fitch went to the body instead. Guys get beat by TKO all the time without really being hurt.
Very well put, MMAman…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Effective striking inflicts damage.
That’s confusing you somehow?
Quantity and quality of strikes landed = effective striking.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, but it's not like we can feel the damage ourselves.
And we can’t go by visual damage alone. If that were the case, we could skip watching any part of any fight and just look at them after each round or after each fight.
And yes, I agree both quality and quantity matter. I think you need BOTH of those to win a 10-7 round. I think if you have quantity and enough quality, you can win 10-8 (i.e. Fitch). I think if you have quality and enough quantity, you can win 10-8 (i.e. Maynard).
What do you mean by 'Visual Damage'?
We can only judge a fight based on what we see. If a shot violently snaps the recipient’s head back, knocks them down, makes them cringe in pain- yes, those are visual indicators of damage.
If you know about striking, you can judge the velocity and impact of strikes, and determine the value of them.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
By visual damage,
I mean bruises, cuts, etc. What your describing are like the “devastating” power shots that I mentioned before.
And I also think Fightmetric knows alot about striking. They’re the official site for keeping stats on strikes. I think they know the difference between a significant strike and an insignificant strike.
I think there is a legitimate argument to be made for replacing Edgar with Melendez and Shields with Fitch. I also think there are legitimate arguments for leaving those guys where they are. Nothing is clear-cut. There are about a dozen guys who have a legit argument for the #8 through #10 slots.
The only guy who I see on the list that absolutely, positively, does not belong is Jon Jones. Replace him with Melendez, Fitch, Hioki or any one of half-dozen other guys and I would be happy.
Yeah, those last few slots are very subjective and debatable.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
I agree completely.
Way to early for Jon Jones to be on this list. if he can Beat Shogun then by all means he gets on here but until then he stays at number 5 on the HW rankings. I say Leave Fe where he is. The Dude beat BJ twise, after BJ had destroyed KenFlo and Diego no other lightweight has done that.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
TRUE.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
Doh!
I think there is a legitimate argument to be made for replacing Edgar with Melendez
Meant to say Maynard.
I agree
Although Gray doesn’t have a single win as impressive as Frankie’s pair of wins over BJ (even though I only thought he won the rematch).
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
Where would you rank Edgar? Just curious. If Gray beat him once (admittedly before Franky became the fighter he is today) and then took him to a draw in their next fight.
If you can't wow them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
I think it's funny when people say that Frankie wasn't the same fighter back then
Sure, he’s improved, but his style is literally the exact same, and their rematch played out very similarly. In the first fight, Gray landed some hard shots and scored with some takedowns; Frankie stuck and moved, picked away with strikes.
In the rematch, Gray landed some harder shots, Frankie stuck and moved, landed some takedowns. Not that different to be honest.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Yes defiantly the same style, but they’ve both gotten better. I also think both fighters have increased how well they are on the feet. I think Franky looks like he’s progressed a little more than Maynard.
If you can't wow them with brilliance, then baffle them with bullshit.
Didn't look like that to me when this happened
Just kidding, Edgar has developed a very slick kickboxing game. He holds his hands too low though.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
I just look at that top gif
and think that Maynard either doesn’t train much in jiu jitsu or doesn’t like front headlock chokes, because he had Frankies’ head and arm trapped and it was ripe for a choke
Well
We all know that Gray isn’t exactly a submission artist. He was just trying to finish with strikes. Frank has good submission defense, there are no guarantees he would’ve finished a choke attempt anyway.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
no guarantee, but pretty good shot when the guy is as rocked as Frankie is
I saw that in the fight and thought that if Maynard was a little more well rounded he’d be LW Champion.
His neck was definitely there for the taking
I think Gray’s wrestling instincts were in play. He was thinking sprawl and punch instead of “go for the choke”.
Can’t blame it on his training either, Neil Melansen teaches a brutal series of front headlock chokes. He demonstrated his arm- lift guillotine on me for the class and I thought my throat was going to implode.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
how much time is given to jiu jitsu or submission offense at XC?
Because guys I know who have trained there have said the gym is much more geared towards teaching wrestlers defense of jiu jitsu and not much else
thanks for your list
gil i can see.
how you could ever put any of the people you listed over shields blows my mind. i guess that’s why p4p is so subjective.
I would like to see Fitch, Nick Diaz, possibly Melendez and a greater prescense from the current UFC 205 lb fighters. I also think BJ Penn should be given considerastion as a #9 or #10 fighter on the list.
by Johnnynumber5 on Mar 11, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Solid list IMO
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
I disagree.
Pat was showing he is just as biased towards Strikeforce as most everyone else is towards the UFC.
I could understand if he pointed out a questionable pick or two (Jon Jones), but shitting all over four through ten is ridiculous. Trying to shoehorn a guy like Overeem onto the list, who has one quality win since morphing into Ubereem, is every bit as shilltastic as trying to put Jon Jones on the list.
Cain's only had 2 ranked wins.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
Cruz’s last 4 fights at the time were against the following ranked fighters: Benevidez 3, Bowles 1, Benevidez 2, and Jorgenson 5. His only loss came to Faber when he was p4p top 5
That is def better than Cain’s resume
I don't think Faber was ranked p4p yet.
But Faber was definitely the man at the time, and Cruz was still green. Not a bad loss to have.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
I guess I'm Cruz's #1 fan
I fucking love that guy. It’s like watching Michael Jackson from the 80’s fight.
I'm hot and cold with him
Sometimes he looks great, like he did against Bowles & Jorgensen, but god… his fights against Benavidez are so ugly. Just an aesthetic thing, I recognize that he’s a good fighter.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:36 AM EST up reply actions
he's doing shit nobody else could to Benavidez
remembered how highly regarded Torres was. Benavidez wrecked him
Well
He definitely outwrestled Benavidez the 1’st fight, but I wasn’t impressed with Cruz in the rematch. Not saying he lost, but I think he landed 1 strike of any consequence (the flying knee) the whole fight.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
The 2nd Benavidez fight was definitely ugly
But I think his last fight against Jorgensen is more indicative of him evolving his style. He completely styled on Scott and had him looking foolish for 5 rounds.
by CaptainKneebar on Mar 11, 2011 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
He looked good against Scotty.
I also think it’s a stylistic difference; Benavidez sticks and moves and is a harder target than Jorgensen, who plants his feet and throws.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
True
I suppose we won’t have a complete idea of Cruz’s talents until he fights more guys. I’m pretty amped to see how he does against Faber or Torres.
by CaptainKneebar on Mar 11, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
Jones at #8 p4p for beating Ryan Bader?
Power of the UFC, I guess
yeah
and matyshenko, and vera, and (basically) hamill, all in the FIRST ROUND.
not sure i would have him that high but rankings aren’t based solely on past accomplishments. i see jones beating just about anyone in the world and so i don’t have a problem with him there.
he lost to hamill
beating vladi and vera gets you #8 p4p? hilarious
he broke the rules and got dq'ed ...
So Overeem should be p4p, because he finishes people in the first?
If he finishes Werdum in the first, yes...
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
All Depends on how you define 'Rankings'
Jon Jones is a 2-1 favorite over the #5 P4P guy on the list. You could argue that means he’s better than Rua. Rua might win, but it WOULD be an upset. Jones is a beast, and probably one of the 3-5 best fighters in the world. Impossible to be sure, but that’s my belief (and clearly the belief of the gambling public).
Basing solely on accomplishments is not going to give you a list of the best fighters. It will just give you a list of the most accomplished.
by flingom on Mar 11, 2011 9:27 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
thats similar to the overeem debate
he went over and won the k1 gp and even though his level of competition in SF or Japan hasn’t been good its hard to imagine a HW fighter beating him. I can think of some amazing fights I’d love to see like Cain or JDS but thats about it. Do you give it on potential or accomplishment? How much do you weigh a K1 GP title?
by Johnnynumber5 on Mar 11, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
if jones gets on the p4p list because of potential, then overeem should be high on the list.
by goodbadugly16 on Mar 11, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
The amount of shenanigans that has been decreed is substantial
Follow on t3h twitter @tpears86
Make no mistake, I have a $70,000 sliver of a radioactive meteor to stop the one from Metropolis. All I need for you is a penny for a book of matches
"The Rock is back to scratch a major itch. So enjoy your fruity pebbles you yabba-dabba bitch!" ~The Rock about John Cena
by MMA42 on Mar 11, 2011 9:17 AM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I guess he also beat that Urijah Faber guy
by Tedd Welch on Mar 11, 2011 9:20 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
well really just his leg
over, and over, and over, and…
by Str8_right on Mar 11, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And that loser champ at the time...
What was his name? Mike something…
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Ha
The sarcasm font is gold when used correctly.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
who at the time
was a top 10 p4p in the world. revisionist history is what makes p4p lists so difficult.
by Johnnynumber5 on Mar 11, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
I think the wins
Over top ranked Faber, #1 FW & p4p ranked Mike Brown, former FW kingpin Pequeno Nogueira, etc all have to do with the ranking as well…
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:21 AM EST up reply actions
Mike Brown and Gamburyan are B-level fighters
Let’s be honest
...Really?
Mike Brown was the fucking man at the time, he made Urijah & Garcia his bitch with MASSIVE knockouts.
I honestly think Brown got old overnight. I think his time at the top of the sport is done, but i’m glad he had his time in the sun.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
Correction
He knocked Garcia down and subbed him.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
Brown was barely top 50 at 155 than dropped 10 pounds and was top 5 p4p
Just like Manny, who was ranked #2 at FW all of a sudden
Well,
That’s for 2 reasons.
1) They’re better suited for FW, and
2) FW admittedly isn’t as deep as LW.
That said, Brown’s streak over Curran, Faber 2x, and Garcia were very impressive at the time. And that’s the only real way you can measure a win- how good it was at the time, in context.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
For those who really understand about MMA
is not a suprise to see Aldo as top 3.
Yeah
I will say, FW is still a developing division, but if you just watch Aldo’s technique… fucking beautiful. His strikes, his grappling, his transitions- it’s all just perfect. Granted, his challengers aren’t as tough as ones from other, more established divisions, but he’s #3 for sure.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
Her name's Kari Sweets
and you’re welcome. ;)
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
You have a sock fetish too?
'No matter what your ideology may be, once you believe you are in the possession of some infallible truth, you become a combatant in a religious war."
Long socks are great
There’s research that shows that wearing socks enhances a woman’s pleasure. Having literally cold feet (for some reason or another) decreases their sex drive.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Yep, i’m familiar with the research. 80% of socks-wearing couples shared orgasms compared to 50% with bare feet.
'No matter what your ideology may be, once you believe you are in the possession of some infallible truth, you become a combatant in a religious war."
I always keep the socks on
I agree with the research, having cold feet sucks.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
Whaaa???
Really? Damn, you learn something new every day. Now to go out and get my lady some long socks!
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions
Definitely a good investment.
They look sexy too.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
Aldo Belongs
I think Aldo belongs, but people give too much credit to some fighters past wins in context. While I don’t think a fighter’s past wins should be discredited, a win over a guy that is great for years after seems to be more impressive than a win over a guy that falls off a cliff. It’s like the Fedor stealing souls argument. When Fedor beats somebody, they weren’t overrated, he ripped their heart out and they will never be the same.
I disagree
Losses change fighters, especially devastating finishes.
Prior to the Brown loss, Garcia (although wild) was actually much more intelligent with picking his shots, and wasn’t as wild just for the sake of being wild.
It’s all about context, man. Of course a win is more impressive if the opponent bounces back afterwards and gets some good wins, but that’s a secondary consideration.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
Depends on the Fighter
I concede that losses can seriously affect the future of the fighters, but not always. Some of these guys are just being exposed as not being that great. Look at Brett Rogers, Arlovski, David Louisea, and a whole slew of other fighters that are highly ranked, lose a fight or two and never amount to much again. Obviously w/ Rogers we don’t know how his career will end, but I don’t buy him as ever being a great fighter. A lot of the guys that go downhill after a loss were never that great before the loss.
I hate the term "exposed".
Rankings are earned based on a fighter’s quality and quantity of wins (and losses, I suppose). If a fighter is ranked at the time of losing, and their career doesn’t get turned back around, then you can’t really take anything away from the guy who beat him.
Great fighters present a puzzle, a combination of skills and abilities that makes them really hard to beat. The first guy to solve that puzzle deserves alot of credit.
At the time, Arlovski was a puzzle. We all knew he had a poor chin, but his blazing hand speed, good fundamental technique, and well rounded skill set put him on a really good run over Werdum, Rothwell, Nelson, etc, and when he fought Fedor, he was rightfully ranked very high. Fedor gets more credit for beating him than Rogers, who gets more credit than Bigfoot, who gets more credit than Sergei. That’s just how it works.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
Rankings not Scientific
The problem with rankings in a sport like MMA is that there is no great way to rank fighters. The best way is based off of their records, but that is a very small body of work for most fighters. There are not very many fighters that have more than a handful of fights against ranked opponents.
Well, of course rankings are going to be partially subjective
and everyone has their own way of doing things.
Personally, I think the only objective means of ranking fighters is by considering the quantity & quality of their wins/ losses, giving precedence to current events, but not ignoring history.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
I agree, but there are some anomalies that never belonged ranked in the first place. Somebody like Mark Hunt should have never been a ranked HW, so a win over him should be viewed now as worthless as a ranked win.
Hunt was ranked
because HW was very weak at the time, and he beat the ranked Crocop.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
There is too little material for making accurate comparisons since there is so little fighting between top-10 guys. In the thinner divisions, like HW, guys get top-10 rankings off of nothing more than hype and perhaps a single (seemingly) high level win.
Aside from JDS, the whole of the UFC’s top HWs built their rankings directly or indirectly on the sandy foundation that is Frank Mir and post-PRIDE Nog. Cain appears to be a legit world-beater, perhaps JDS will prove to be also.
Personally, based on watching their fights only, I would say the best HWs in the world (1-7) are Cain, Overeem, JDS, Werdum, Lesnar, Bigfoot, Carwin.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
HW is weak
This isn’t news.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
Brown was barely top 50 at 155 than dropped 10 pounds and was top 5 p4p
Omigawa wasn’t even top 500 at LW then dropped 10 pounds and suddenly could hang with the elite at FW. Some guys just need to find the right weight division.
Yeah
I think part of it is the depth of featherweight, but also, being in the right weight class helps immensely.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Best P4P list I've ever seen
Finally someone gets that the #1s from each division should go first before any #2 fighters. After all, how can you be the second best at your weight class and be ranked above someone who is the best at theirs
Because some divisions are much deeper than others
MW and HW are shallow. LW and WW are super deep. Fitch and Shields are more talented p4p than the 2nd and 3rd best MWs.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Mar 11, 2011 9:26 AM EST up reply actions
Frankiln McNeil
always seems to rub me the wrong way. It’s probably because I very rarely ever agree with his analysis or predictions.
Just Breed!
by ScoreCardOTN on Mar 11, 2011 9:20 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
McNeil is unbearable
I don’t know, how he got this job
My favorite: Do Santos has good BJJ; because he has a sub win over CroCop
by Cool2010 on Mar 11, 2011 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
YES
that was just terrible…..in his defense though, I’ve heard Rogan say the same about Guida’s win over Dos Anjos, and that was sub due to injury.
by Thomas Benjamin on Mar 11, 2011 10:24 AM EST up reply actions
Um
I’m not saying that Guida has great JJ, but a sub by broken jaw shouldn’t carry any less weight than a traditional tap out.
by hardlyworking on Mar 11, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
There's a difference
between submission from strikes/ injury, and submission to a choke/ joint lock.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
I love me some Jon Jones ....
… but ranking him top 10 pound-for-pound is ludicrous.
Anik is gaga for Jones bone....hehe
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah surprised they didn’t make him #1 already. I guess one Josh Gross is not enough for ESPN to have rational rankings.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
by Venom77 on Mar 11, 2011 9:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I'm on the Jones nut-hugging brigade
and I’d be fine with him being on this list — even a couple spots higher — if he does what I expect him to do against Rua, but right now the level of competition isn’t there to warrant a top 10 P4P ranking.
Aldo, another guy I love, is also a little bit high for my taste, given how up in the air that division is.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Mar 11, 2011 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
what's the difference between pound for pound ranking..
and just regular rankings?? Overeem’s not in their top ten??
"I hate these quotes: Rise And Shine or Rise And Grind....just rise and shut the fuck up" -Phil Baroni
pound-for-pound was all weights being equal
which kinda eliminates the Reem because his recent run has a lot to do with bullying guys with his ‘horsemeat’ size
" pound-for-pound was all weights being equal"
but all weights are never equal, so what’s the point??
"I hate these quotes: Rise And Shine or Rise And Grind....just rise and shut the fuck up" -Phil Baroni
by stainlesssteel on Mar 11, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
to argue endlessly
it is who is the best fighter based on skill and past accomplishment, not who would win if you threw them in a cage together. Because Reem vs Edgar wouldn’t really work
The difference is pound for pound is even more subjective and bullshit than regular rankings
by Chris P. Bacon on Mar 11, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Agreed
It’s still fun to debate about though, but only from time to time and only here on BE.
by Thomas Benjamin on Mar 11, 2011 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t understand why Jones and Maynard are in there and Fitch is absent…
by axemurderer138 on Mar 11, 2011 9:28 AM EST via mobile reply actions
maybe because aldo and jones DECIMATE opponents
while Fitch wrestles them
"I hate these quotes: Rise And Shine or Rise And Grind....just rise and shut the fuck up" -Phil Baroni
by stainlesssteel on Mar 11, 2011 9:30 AM EST up reply actions
I wonder if you misread axemurderer’s comment
by Tedd Welch on Mar 11, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Maynard on and Fitch off is the silliest part of this list
They’re the same guy, but Fitch is better and has been doing it for longer against better guys.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Mar 11, 2011 9:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree x100
I’d favor Fitch over just about every guy at 170 besides GSP. He’s not flashy, but he’s inarguably a top-flight competitor.
Fitch is better?
Bullshit. Gray actually has a winning record over the champ, and is undefeated otherwise. Although interestingly, they both got taken to a draw by a puffed up fighter from a lighter weight class.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
LW and WW are both deep, but the top five of the WW division is just much tougher than the top five of LW. Gray Maynard would never get by a GSP type either, so I don’t see how you hold that against Fitch. He’s beaten everybody else in an killer’s division and he’s done it forever.
I don’t like Fitch (or Maynard for that matter) but I give the man his due.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Mar 11, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
He's good
But really has few elite, signature wins. The pair of wins over Alves are probably his best. Paulo Thiago was ranked at the time of their fight, because of his upset over Koscheck.
What else though? I look at his wins, and most of those guys aren’t even in the UFC anymore.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
the Mike Pierce win will look better over time
the Diego Sanchez win is a solid win. And he beat B.J. and if he didn’t beat B.J. he got slightly out pointed in the first two rounds and then put a very GSP-like beating on Penn in the third.
Anyone who goes 13-1-1 in the UFC’s welterweight division deserves love
I didn't even think he beat Diego.
And yes, the Pierce win was quality (despite getting his shit rocked in the 3’rd round).
He definitely deserves to be on the p4p list (and I think he is on Sherdog’s list), but many of his wins are less than elite quality.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
I think we've discussed this before
Jon Fitch clearly beat Diego. I have not heard an argument or seen any evidence to think otherwise.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
I had it as a draw.
10-10 first round, they traded takedowns and neither really landed significantly more strikes.
10-9 Fitch 2’nd round, he landed some good shots.
10-9 Diego 3’rd round, he came really close with a guillotine and a kimura.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
ahh...that's the difference
I think submission attempts are pointless when defended and sed defense leads to a dominant position by the other fighter.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
I agree as well
But these days, I have to adjust how I actually score fights to include how I think the judges score fights.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
My ego won't allow that.
I hate to say it but I know without a shadow of a doubt that at home on my couch w/ a beer and a DVR that I am miles better than the MMA judges that are currently employed and judging.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
Part of it is education, part of it is having a big old HD flat screen with multiple camera angles, and a noise free environment.
If you think about it, judges are cramped in this space with fenceline, posts, cameramen, an awkward viewing angle, etc all obscuring their view, as well as thousands of screaming fans around.
I think the judges should be in a sound proof box, with the sounds in the cage amplified, and their own monitors for quick instant review.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
similar ideas
3 judges ringside with monitors and 3 judges up in the rafters/press box etc. who are void of noise entirely.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
I thought he lost the Mike Pierce fight
Just sayin
by hardlyworking on Mar 11, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
Not exactly a dominant victory for Fitch.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
DECIMATE?
so they kill one tenth of the opponent?
by Str8_right on Mar 11, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually, this is interesting:
“Decimate” has been so chronically misused that its dictionary definition now includes
To reduce drastically especially, in number
yeah only b/c of it being misused so much
came from army’s forcing their own to kill 1 in 10 to prevent dissention in the ranks. 10 soldiers pick straws, shortest gets killed by remaining 9. Everyone gets to share in the guilt of killing one of their own. Generals are happy.
hmm...
I always thought it was similar to destroy, dismantle, obliterate, crush, etc. I never use the word, like never so idk.
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Just don't agree with Gray Maynard on #10
In my opinion Cigano deserve this position.
p4p rankings are fun but lets be real
its about as substantial as a marvel or dc list of whos the most powerful.
the constantly shifting world that is mma can indulge in these fantastical mental exercises for so long until someone takes an L when they were percieved to be invincible or some up and comer comes upside some established guys head.
Bottom line: Fun list, but p4p list says more about the list makers than the fighters.
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
by The Blackula on Mar 11, 2011 9:38 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I’d like to see a Marvel and DC list of who’s most powerful. Is it still Franklin Richards? Where do you rank Silver Surfer compared to Green Lantern?
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 11, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
I used to frequent ComicVine.com
for their forums and stuff for a couple months a while back…I don’t go there at all anymore.
You could create a thread with like Wolverine and Spiderman vs Batman and Lobo or whatever, and I was cool with hypothetical matches against mortals, but they wouldn’t do that. 9 times out of 10 it would be one of Marvels Omnipotent super duper nigh unstoppable character versus one of DCs Omnipotent super duper nigh unstoppable character. I don’t read comics at all anymore, so I’m completely out of the loop, but it made my head hurt reading the debates. Here’s a sample battle for instance:
DC: Superman 1000, Lucifer Morningstar, Dark Seid and…hell any other stupid powerful ass DC character vs
Marvel: Phoenix Force, Galactus, Celestials, ToAA, and Thanos with all the cosmic rings or whatever…
Now honestly how the hell do you even begin to debate a battle like that? So I just slowly stopped going to that site lol.
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
Poor Pat
Trying to plug in SF. This list is absolutely right till Gil, Reem or Alvarez fight in the UFC they won’t be on any P4P list. Pat tries to put them in there artificially even Gross got his head right.
Ah well as long as Anderson is number 1
by Str8_right on Mar 11, 2011 9:47 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
haha ikr
but just watch and see as soon as GSP beats Shields, IF GSP beats Shields, then he’s going to leap frog Andy. And if the super fight doesn’t happen and Andy fights and beat Okami, then he’s gonna leap frog GSP and vice-versa until one of the two lose and they stumble down the ranks…or until Andy retires and GSP takes the crown most definitely.
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Agree with their rankings (maybe not the order other than the top 3) but dont think Jones and Maynard should be in there (yet) Fitch and Rashad should probably be.
Rashad?
I think the Machida loss, and getting rocked by T. Silva & Rampage consecutively takes him out of immediate consideration.
Gray definitely belongs if you ask me.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
Not rashad
Gray belongs in there. Fitch deserves Jones’ spot.
by Thomas Benjamin on Mar 11, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
this is gonna sound like UFC nuthuggery but,
GSP and Silva are interchangeable. 3-7 are all subjectively interchangeable. 8,9, and 10 are just pointless and we could fit about 7-8 fighters in those spots that could merit an argument.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 9:53 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Very true
Those last few spots are quite debatable.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
I'd love, love to put Hioki in the top 10 list....
I just can’t do it with the lose to Omigawa
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
Did you see the fight?
I thought Hioki won handily. Omigawa’s gotten some real gift decisions in Japan.
I personally do not hold that fight against Hioki at all. And it’s not like Omigawa’s a bum, any way.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
No, I haven't (i'll find it and watch it)
Just like w/ Jones however I believe records are there for a reason. I know Jones destroyed Hamil but it was a lose and I’ll reserve my judgment on him until after the Rua fight. On that note w/ Sandro gone and his only real competition being Masanori Kanehara he needs a move.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Hioki is purportedly in talks with the UFC
But I only judge the quality of a win/ loss if I see it myself. And if no video is available, I try to find play by plays & the opinions of credible analysts.
Records are useful, but are really more of a historical reference point than anything.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
fair point
like I said, I’ll find the fight and watch it. Judge for myself and garner my opinion accordingly.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
Frankie Edgar 3rd?
I like the kid, but he is not top 3 at all.. seriously over Cain, and Shogun? I guess they need to boost him up in the rankings to sell pay per views!
by Floetic on Mar 11, 2011 9:56 AM EST via mobile reply actions 2 recs
or...
He beat am twice who was at the time considered a top 5 P4P fighter in BJ
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
"a man"
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
werdum beat a man who was considered top 3 since forever, yet i guess that is not as relevant somehow
Sounds like Springfield's got a discipline problem.
- Maybe that's why we beat them at football nearly half the time.
by New_User on Mar 11, 2011 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have no problem with Frankie Edgar there. He’s in BJ’s old spot, and deserves it since he beat him twice. He certainly deserves to be ranked higher than Cain, whose claim to fame is beating up an over the hill Nog and exposing Brock’s aversion to getting punched in the face,
Well...
being undefeated kinda helps too.
'No matter what your ideology may be, once you believe you are in the possession of some infallible truth, you become a combatant in a religious war."
Meh
Undefeated does not impress me when all but two of the guys on his record range from ‘sucks’ to ‘gatekeeper’.
I would say sucks to gatekeepr. he beat some solid dudes but KenFlo was the only one ranked in the top ten at the time he beat them i think.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
wouldnt
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Not enough to put him in the Top Ten though.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Undefeated?
You do know that Gray beat him, right?
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Apologies, I was referring to Cain.
'No matter what your ideology may be, once you believe you are in the possession of some infallible truth, you become a combatant in a religious war."
Gotcha mang.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Guess Beating BJ twice
After he killed Diego and KenFlo means shit now a days huh. Man sometimes people should think before they talk.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
I have no problem with this list
I try to be a role model for kids around the park. If some kid wants to grow dope, they can come talk to me, instead of growing dope 6 or 7 times through denial and error, they're going to get it right the first time and have some good dope. - Ricky
You can't tell me to not grow dope. It's like telling the NWA to stop being black.-Ricky
Then I have problems with you.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
what can change on the list?
I mean maybe Edgar should go lower but the list is still pretty good especially the top 3.
I try to be a role model for kids around the park. If some kid wants to grow dope, they can come talk to me, instead of growing dope 6 or 7 times through denial and error, they're going to get it right the first time and have some good dope. - Ricky
You can't tell me to not grow dope. It's like telling the NWA to stop being black.-Ricky
?
Why should Edgar be lower?
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Mar 11, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
I just think Shogun should be 4 and Edgar 5
Shogun has beat a lot better people than Edgar. But I think Edgar definitely deserves to be top 5 because he dominated BJ penn twice
I try to be a role model for kids around the park. If some kid wants to grow dope, they can come talk to me, instead of growing dope 6 or 7 times through denial and error, they're going to get it right the first time and have some good dope. - Ricky
You can't tell me to not grow dope. It's like telling the NWA to stop being black.-Ricky
Jones Edgar and Maynard
Her herp
Sounds like Springfield's got a discipline problem.
- Maybe that's why we beat them at football nearly half the time.
Interesting
I have no problem with the top 5 really…I probably would’ve had a problem with Frankie, but he did beat Penn TWICE, so yeah I’m good wit the top 5, but man gotdamn no Fedor at all in the top 10? I’m not a Fedor fan, but to have a record of 30+ wins with only 3 losses is outstanding. It’s amazing what 2 simultaneous losses can do to a fighter.
I’m guessing if GSP loses to Shields, then GSP would drop to like what, 4 or 5 and Shields makes his way to the top 3-5 spot? So hell if GSP loses his next 2 fights then he’s out of the top 10 completely? Man that p4p list is fucking cut-throat.
I’m also not too sure about Cain, Jon, and Gray, but Cain is an undefeated UFC champ, Jones is a phenomenal fighter who finishes, and Gray is undefeated and he just recently took the number 4 guy to a draw, so all in all I’m content with the list. It would be nice to see a couple fighters who are not fighting in the UFC make the list, but *eh.
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 10:38 AM EST reply actions
2 loses in a row
It really is that simple. He wins 2 fighters highly ranked an he’s back in the P4P list
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah you're right
Oh yeah, and were’s Fitch???
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
I said earlier
7-10 are interchangeable w/ about 7-8 fighters that could be argued for.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
Edgar > Gray Maynard ????
Whatever.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
Edgar= Champ
that’s it. until other events change this it’s not even debatable.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry man.
Being the champ does not mean you’re the best OR THE BEST IN THE DIVISION.
yeah I’m screaming in ALL CAPS:
Examples?:
- The UFC LHW title
- Brock Lesnar
- Matt Serra
- Oh wait, did Gray Maynard defeat Frankie Edgar . . . YES or NO
- Is Fabricio Werdum STILL FREAKING RANKED HIGHER THAN Junior Dos Santos?!?
I’m writing my SENATOR, this is INEXCUSABLE!
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Mar 11, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
you are exceptionally amusing or crazy
either way…..carry on and thank you.
"There are no atheists in foxholes" isn't an argument against atheism, it's an argument against foxholes. ~James Morrow
"There is a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot."-Steven Wright
by F'n Clownshoes on Mar 11, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
Is Fabricio Werdum STILL FREAKING RANKED HIGHER THAN Junior Dos Santos?!?
Brandon Schaub is ranked above Roy Nelson (As of Jan 27 rankings) who he was KO’d by just over a year ago, and Werdum (who lost to JDS almost 2.5 years ago) has done far more to show the JDS fight was a fluke than Schaub has…
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 12, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
The wins over BJ put Edgar over Maynard.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Which is true...but dumb
Its weird how a win for Edgar vs BJ is better then a win for Maynard vs. Edgar…
So even though Maynard has the better Head to head record, Edgar gets ranked higher..
see my ALL CAPS filled rant directly above . . .
It is pretty well-written with insightful thoughts.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Mar 11, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
Well, you bring up good points,
but a win over lightweight BJ at the time was worth a ton. The first win was dubious, and Edgar took the rematch by storm. In context, BJ was seen as an untouchable god at lightweight, and top p4p talent.
Maynard has some great wins, but none as good as Frank’s win over BJ. The Sherk win was also very impressive, arguably as good if not better than Gray’s win over Florian.
It’s counterintuitive, because Gray does have a winning record over Frankie head to head, but in general, Frank has the better wins.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, I’ll concede that Edgar’s wins over Penn is far better than any win in Maynard’s career.
Here’s one thing I know for sure, in a 5 round match, Penn knows he would have serious trouble against Maynard. They rolled together. Anyway that is pure speculation . . . but after their rubber match oops 3rd match, will Maynard finally get his props?
End note, does Maynard look like Jon Fitch because those guys don’t get any respect.
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Mar 11, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure what you're asking...
are you talking about BJ/ Edgar 3, or Maynard/ Edgar 3?
- BJ would have to make an emphatic return to ‘55 to get a 3rd fight with Frankie.
- If Gray loses to Frank, then they’re 1-1-1, and can still have a final match to decide the series.
And obviously Fitch & Maynard don’t have a huge fan base, they aren’t finishers. They’re both good, but they definitely prioritize winning over entertaining. Which is fine, but you can’t really complain about your lack of fans if you’re going to fight conservatively/ safely. It’s a trade off, and the truly great fighters strike a balance between the 2.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Wow. No love for non-UFC guys?
No Melendez or Mousasi?
Also no Fitch? hmm…
I know Mousasi’s a stretch, but these rankings do seem very biased
by kick_puncher on Mar 11, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Mousasi's loss to Mo disqualifies him for now.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
Plus, he doesn't have any ranked wins at 205.
In fact, I think Kang was his only top 10 win in general, although the Jacare win was impressive, as was the Babalu win.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Why would Moussasi even be near this list?
he has no top 10 wins at LHW and perhaps 1 or 2 at MW. I don’t even think he should be top 10 at his current weight class, much less in a p4p list.
El Santo inspired me to be a submission grappler.
by Enmascarado on Mar 11, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Fitch! Fitch! Fitch!
When was the last time Fitch loss or got his a** beat outside of the lashing he received from the champion?
I tend to be biased towards strikers . . . exciting strikers.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Mar 11, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
ESPN sucks
They have no clue about MMA. While I understand they are bringing MMA more mainstream, they are doing a disservice to the casual community.
Having Jon freakin Jones on that list loses all credibility.
If you throw all 10 of these guys in a huge pit with the ‘Reem, at least half will end up dead and the other half won’t be able to get a license.
DWTDD
by buckyyo on Mar 11, 2011 10:52 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
That's not the point of p4p
although I think the concept is kinda stupid anyway.
Reem obviously isn’t on the list because he hasn’t had any elite MMA wins in a while, the Rogers win is the only thing keeping him in the top 10 at HW.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
Clearly you don't understand what P4P lists are about
Throwing the ‘Reem on this list would ruin the point of P4P, because he has proven that he can’t win without his size against elite opponents (as shown in his up and down career at LW)
Same reason that no matter how great Brock is, or could be, he wont make the list..because his size is what makes him so good
Haha
Seriously.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
I understand exactly what P4P lists are...
And yes I’m just bitching about ESPN and being a bit unrealistic…
I disagree about Reem, you say he doesn’t deserve to be on the list because he doesn’t have any elite MMA wins in awhile, but the dude is fighting K-1 and all over the place. Dominick Cruz is absolutely not an elite fighter, so he beat Benvanidez, Jorgensen, but really how good are those guys? Just cuz you’re the best Bantamweight in the World doesn’t qualify you for this list, IMO.
As for Jon Jones, who has he beaten? Bonnar? Bader? Vera? Come on man, the guy is talented but hasn’t beat a top tier guy yet, he shouldn’t be in Top 10. Shogun is gonna maul him.
DWTDD
Gray Deserves to be on this list
People…He’s beat (and had a draw) with the #4 fighter on the list. He beat the (at the time) #4 LW in Florian, Jim Miller who’s the current #7 ranked LW, Nate Daiz and Roger Huerta, who were both ranked at the time…
And the dude has never lost…
Cut him some slack
Every time some entity does Power rankings
I feel like I lose several IQ points.
My prescription is for 'medicinal purposes' only
Jake Shields seems pretty low on that list for me
considering what he has done at WW and MW.
I really dont like how Shields goes about his fights i dont find it exciting or really even ‘fighting’, but it works for him winning however and works within the MMA ruleset.
and based on his past record, plus how he’s shown he can hang at different weightclassses, I would have him much higher in P4P rankings
Sounds like Springfield's got a discipline problem.
- Maybe that's why we beat them at football nearly half the time.
Jon Jones above Jake Shields is kinda dumb. I don’t even think he should be on the list yet (although he will be one day)
Jake Shields is on a 15 fight win streak with the likes of Dan Henderson, Jason Miller, Paul Daley, Martin Kampmann, Yushin Okami, Carlos Condit, Robbie Lawler and a ton of other guys since hes on a 15 fight win streak.
Jon Jones is on a 2 fight win streak with wins over Ryan Bader and Vladdy..with other wins including Brandon Vera and Stephen Bonnar….Not sure how that works out other than hype machine boosting him up.
Jake Sheilds is the definition of P4P
He moves up and down in weight to fight people and he has not lost in a while and has faced a murders row of opponents. I think if Jake Sheilds dominates (and he has to dominate) GSP, then he deserves the #1 spot.
This is coming from someone who hates Sheilds with a passion.
I try to be a role model for kids around the park. If some kid wants to grow dope, they can come talk to me, instead of growing dope 6 or 7 times through denial and error, they're going to get it right the first time and have some good dope. - Ricky
You can't tell me to not grow dope. It's like telling the NWA to stop being black.-Ricky
That’s not the definition of P4P. It has nothing to do with how many weightclasses you’ve fought at.
"So, while you're taking a break from the UFC, hanging out at some lame party that your girlfriend dragged you to, I'll man up and watch some goddamn fights like a goddamn adult."
- Mike Fagan
Support independent artists
http://worldisart365.blogspot.com/
by Worldisart on Mar 11, 2011 11:23 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think it is the definition
The guy fights, and wins, against opponents that are bigger then he is…
If aldo went up to 155 and beat a top 10 guy (like Sheilds beat in Henderson) like Maynard…people would lose their shit for him, and he would become #1
the Reason BJ was always so high on the list, was because he was successful at WW and LW
p4p is pound for pound right?
I think it has everything to do with how many weight classes you fight at and how successful you are. That is what he has down. Moved up and down and won. “Pound for pound”.
I try to be a role model for kids around the park. If some kid wants to grow dope, they can come talk to me, instead of growing dope 6 or 7 times through denial and error, they're going to get it right the first time and have some good dope. - Ricky
You can't tell me to not grow dope. It's like telling the NWA to stop being black.-Ricky
Well
I think fighting bigger comp and winning is favorable for p4p, but really, it’s just a matter of quantity & quality of wins and losses, especially recently.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
maybe Im getting ahead of myself saying he would be #1 if he beats GSP
But he would fill out the bigger comp and winning category and the quality of wins department if he somehow wins.
I try to be a role model for kids around the park. If some kid wants to grow dope, they can come talk to me, instead of growing dope 6 or 7 times through denial and error, they're going to get it right the first time and have some good dope. - Ricky
You can't tell me to not grow dope. It's like telling the NWA to stop being black.-Ricky
Shields would definitely be considered a top p4p talent if he beat GSP.
Also, Hendo has acquitted himself well lately, and Shields’ win over him is looking better and better as a result.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
For sure..
If he beats GSP..then in the past 3 years he’d have beaten 3 top 10 WW (GSP #1, Kammpman #7, Daley #10), 2 top 15 MWs (Henderson #10, Lawler #13….and Mayhem Miller who was ranked #24 at the time of their fight)
And what makes it more impressive, is that Hendo is currrenlty ranked as the #13 LHW (probably going to move up too)
SOO..your right, Sheilds is the definition of P4P..he just has to win
But lets get real here
GSP I feel will walk all over him or at least hopefully
I try to be a role model for kids around the park. If some kid wants to grow dope, they can come talk to me, instead of growing dope 6 or 7 times through denial and error, they're going to get it right the first time and have some good dope. - Ricky
You can't tell me to not grow dope. It's like telling the NWA to stop being black.-Ricky
overeem, melendez? please GTFO Miletich.
by Rampage01 on Mar 11, 2011 11:41 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
MMA Live needs a name change
…to UFC Live. Slowly but surely they have reduced the amount of non-UFC coverage.
by OmoPlata on Mar 11, 2011 12:01 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Almost all MMA magazines and video media are very biased towards the UFC.
It’s the only way Zuffa will cooperate with them.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This is capitalism.
I’d prefer some more peripheral MMA coverage though, Bellator/ SF/ Japan have some good things going on.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
InsideMMA
Thats why I love this show
"He embodies this cultural shift that we have and it really started with Dr.Dre selling us NWA and selling us the culture of gangster is cool, Yeah gangster is cool in a way to watch a movie. But being gangster is just being a little kid. And starting a big brawl because, What? I talked some shit to your homie, that is just ghetto and that thing is what embodies what is wrong with america right now" Jason "mayhem" Miller on Nick Diaz
Yeah
Inside MMA is quality. I’m also a mark for Bas.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
It’s the only way Zuffa will cooperate with them.
I think it is less about Zuffa than it is about what helps them generate revenue. No one would watch a show that devoted equal time to every MMA organization in the world. It’s the same reason ESPN doesn’t cover Japanese baseball or Euro league basketball.
The viewers want Zuffa, so they get Zuffa. You can’t monetize your coverage if you are covering stuff no one gives a shit about.
Well
That’s true to an extent. But it’s disproportionately geared towards Zuffa with some magazines/ shows.
Only the hardcore fans read the magazines and watch the shows like MMALive, anyway. Very little casual fan attention for those mediums IMO.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
the majority of top level mma
that espn would deem worth covering takes place in the ufc
the show covers every strikeforce event, normally with an entire show breakdown, and they even cover bellator results, so im not really sure what you’re talking about.
are they schills for ufc? maybe. but i think their non-ufc coverage is proportional to A) the volume of events that the ufc produces in comparison to other orgs, and B) the higher level rankings of ufc fighters in comparison to other orgs.
Shields at 9 is a joke and Jones is ahead of him that is plain insulting is this P4P list or a hope we get brownie points from Zuffa list.
So on love for Hiok or Melendez who in their last fights took out the No 2 men in their divisions with ease, Wow .
by Hioki's Hamster on Mar 11, 2011 12:04 PM EST reply actions
Well
You have to consider not only who a fighter beats, but how they beat them.
Shields has won 3 straight uninspiring decisions in which he did very little damage, and was seriously hurt/ nearly finished by his opponents.
Not that I think Jones should be on the list, but he has blown through his opponents in dominant fashion. Shields’ last truly impressive victory was over Lawler IMO.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
Pssssh
You think Gil and Diaz should be there? for what? who has gil beat besides josh thompson(who also beat him) and a one dimensional Aoki?
I try to be a role model for kids around the park. If some kid wants to grow dope, they can come talk to me, instead of growing dope 6 or 7 times through denial and error, they're going to get it right the first time and have some good dope. - Ricky
You can't tell me to not grow dope. It's like telling the NWA to stop being black.-Ricky
my bad I forgot how terrible Damm was
And how he split decisioned Guida 5 years ago, Ishida is ok at best. That does not qualify for top ten, probably not even top 20 p4p but good try
I try to be a role model for kids around the park. If some kid wants to grow dope, they can come talk to me, instead of growing dope 6 or 7 times through denial and error, they're going to get it right the first time and have some good dope. - Ricky
You can't tell me to not grow dope. It's like telling the NWA to stop being black.-Ricky
IMO, and isn't that all that really matters, lol?
Edgar or maynard are fringe top 10 guys. I think both are very incomplete fighters, despite their successes. Their skill sets have served them well, but there seem to be glaring holes in their games that prevent them from being compared to the likes of GSP and Silva.
Also, there are several names that could be substituted, but Nick Diaz is NOT one of them. I question his place as a top WW, let alone a top P4P guy. Now this isn’t questioning his toughness and heart or even his skill, but I’m not sure he could hang with the likes of Fitch, GSP or even BJ.
But as always, these lists mean little except for giving us a starting point to debate our own views and opinions.
You've got to be smoking serious joints if you think Nick Freaking Diaz is top 10 p4p
Much like ESPN thinks Jones is in the top 10 for….I don’t know why.
"If I had a dollar for every brain you don't have, I'd have one dollar." - Squidward Tentacles
i smoke joints, blunts, bongs, bubblers, and vapes
and i still don’t think Diaz is near top 10.
Legalize MMA in New York.
Legalize marijuana nationwide.
Explains why Rogan extols him as a p4p talent.
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Mar 11, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Jake Shields=BULLSHIT:) It’s cool though, rankings no matter.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 11, 2011 6:31 PM EST reply actions
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