The UFC Brand and Georges St. Pierre vs Anderson Silva
by Nate Wilcox on Mar 10, 2011 8:05 PM EST
in Business of MMA
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The UFC has never denied that they have modeled their business on the WWE. They use regular cable television programming to drive pay-per-view sales which is the major revenue source. And most importantly, they position company exec Dana White (Vince McMahon) as the front man for the organization to ensure that no one star becomes bigger than the promotion.
The WWE learned that lesson the hard way when Hulk Hogan became bigger than the promotion in the late 1980s. The UFC has worked very hard to prevent that from happening. Unfortunately it appears their brand is weakening. Dave Meltzer in the Wrestling Observer (subscription only) talks about the terrible ratings for UFC on Versus 3 and what it means for the UFC brand (emphasis mine):
So when it comes to viewers, (ratings for UFC on Versus 3 were) down 31% from the what had been the company's all-time low for a live show, even behind the 2/26 prelims on Ion that had no advertising behind it (the rating was significantly lower on 2/26 because Ion is available in far more homes than Versus).
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No matter how you may want to try and spin that UFC number, it's very bad. The show was barely higher than the final WEC show (0.62 and 615,000 viewers) on the station in December. And when the Stanley Cup finals this year were on Versus, they still averaged more than 3 million viewers per game.
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The undercard didn't have strong name value, but most TV undercards don't, so the issue is UFC fans picking and choosing and skipping even what would be considered average quality television events even if they are free.
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I think it's more a continuation of a pattern which has been going on since last summer. Because of so many events, most UFC fans have become fans of big stars and big matches, and no longer of the UFC brand itself. Just the brand name alone is not worth what it was to getting people to watch a show, even from one year ago.
The UFC's strategy of expansion -- both internationally and onto more cable channels -- has led to them watering down their product and damaging their brand. They have trained fans that not every UFC is a must-see event.
That makes them ever-more dependent on their biggest stars to drive the growth of the company. Stars like Georges St. Pierre recognize this and are beginning to make moves to get a larger share of the pie.
BE alumnus Michael Rome analyzed the pre-negotiation maneuvers of GSP heading into the fight at SBNation:
All told, a Georges St. Pierre vs. Anderson Silva super fight will probably gross over $60 million in revenue in a single night. Will the UFC's biggest star, Georges St. Pierre, be able to cash in?
Fans have predictably misunderstood St. Pierre's attitude regarding a potential move to 185. They believe he is "scared" or unsure about moving up. In reality, he is playing it cool in order to get the best deal possible. Who can blame him? He is the key player in the biggest fight in UFC history, he deserves a big piece of the pie.
A move to Middleweight is a huge career risk for St. Pierre. He stated that if he does move up in weight, he will put on enough muscle that moving back to 170 will no longer be an option. What happens if he loses? In order to justify his contract, he would probably be matched up against another big star in the Middleweight division. If he comes off a loss to Silva and gets matched up with the likes of Chael Sonnen or Yushin Okami, he'd be fighting wrestlers that have nearly 15 pounds on him. A loss to either one of them would mean one of the fastest falls from grace in UFC history. It is conceivable that in a period of nine months, he could end up across the table from UFC executives listening to them explain why his performance no longer justifies the millions of dollars he makes.
Georges St. Pierre is currently dominating the welterweight division and making millions of dollars in the process. He will likely be able to do that for years to come. It makes absolutely no sense for him to move up in weight unless there is a massive financial reward waiting for him.
If the UFC is going to continue to grow at anything like it's growth rate from 2005-2010, they need to build stars and book mega-fights. St. Pierre knows they need him to fight Anderson Silva more than he needs that fight. That's called leverage and GSP has it.
If you thought that M-1 Global made Strikeforce and Showtime give it up to sign Fedor Emelianenko, you ain't seen nothing yet. The UFC has established and maintains a completely dominant relationship with 99% of its fighters, but as it becomes dependent on mega-fights to keep the growth going, that top 1% of fighters will inevitably begin to get the upper hand on the promotion.
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This fight is going to be like Fedor vs anybody
Were gonna here all about it even after it happens
by rscott94 on Mar 10, 2011 6:35 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I think we’re a far way off before UFC fighters are bigger than the brand. GSP is the biggest star in the UFC right now and he is kept happy with relatively little compensation in comparison to revenue. Brock Lesnar commands a huge salary as well (in MMA terms) and can pick and choose some of what he wants to do but if he wants to fight MMA, he would still want the UFC and give in to most requests.
How long do you think before we see M-1-esque negotiating in the UFC? I can’t see it happening and being successful for at least another few years.
"All I guarantee is violence" - Wand
This entire argument is wrong (except for Rome’s point on GSP positioning himself).
Big fighter and stars pull bigger numbers in the UFC… nothing has changed… this was true 4 years ago.
Look at Tito vs Chuck. Tito vs Shamrock on spike tv. etc…
Let’s compare GSP/Anderson to Chuck/Tito and let’s assume GSP/Anderson will produce the record ppv buys (1.6m)… Im about to show you that the Brand is as strong today or even stronger now than it was in 2006:
tito/chuck 2 produced 1m buys out of around 5.2m total buys for the year: that represents a llittle over 20%
Let’s assume GSP/anderson does the most buys UFC has ever done at 1.6m. The buys this year are projected to be close to 10m or more but let’s say it’s 9m. That represents a little less than 20% of the buys for the year… if it’s 10m buys then that represents even less.
NOTHING HAS CHANGED in proportion…. the proportions have just gotten bigger. You have 15 ppv;s today instead of 10 or less. fighters are making twice as much today as they were then. Total buys are twice as much today, etc… The proportions are the same. The equation hasnt changed. Guys negotiated and postured back then and they will now. Their proportional leverage hasnt changed though.
In terms of ratings… free UFC content used to be far and few between. You now have more fight nights, more shows on versus and you have an additional 12 free prelims per year. More people today are exposed to the brand than at any time in history and that’s why buys are going up.
You think the brand is weaker today where Zuffa can sell 15 ppv’s a year, close to 10m buys a year, while having more than twice the amount of fights air on free television than it did in 2006? That’s insane.
Nothing has changed… everything simply has gotten bigger proportionally.
In terms of GSP/Anderson. Zuffa doesnt need the fight. Dana didnt even want to make it until recently and if he wants the fight I guarantee it will be alot easier than it was making Chuck vs Tito.
The Brand is stronger today than it has ever been.
That is… nothing has changed regarding brand or fighter leverage from 4 years ago. Brand has actually gotten stronger.
what has changed:
12 additional free “events” per calendar year was a recent addition… that’s an enormous increase in free event output and as a result the value of “Free UFC” has been watered down a bit Free UFC being devalued (likely short term effect) is a huge difference from saying the UFC brand has been devalued.
The free prelims has devalued other free UFC: fight night, versus, etc… But considering the increase of 12 more events in a calendar year (more than 100% increase in free events) a stagnation in free UFC ratings isnt very bad especially when people who are willing to spend money on UFC content continues to increase.
And a fighter posturing hasnt changed either. Tito, Randy, etc,,, nothing has changed except it’s actually less now because Zuffa structures contracts better but this kind of thing will always be around. .The equation hasnt changed.
4 years ago people thought it would change and the equation is the same today. Fedor has died and there will never be another one.
There will be more “randy’s”, and even “tito’s” but no there will never be another Fedor.
Will MMA fighters make Boxing money? Absolutely. MMA fighters will make 10m a fight plus… but that’s only because Zuffa will be making alot more than it is now. They’ll make boxing money but they’ll never get the ratio of the revenue that the top boxers get.
The fact that they can probably have all negotiations with GSP “in-house” makes it a different from the M-1-SF deal (At least in the public eye). The only thing to take into account is what GSP wants. Does he want to dominate 170 and get big paydays in the process, or does he want to move where he will be more challenged, but make one gigantic payday and cement his legacy as one of the best fighters ever.
I don’t know if one show, on Versus, a backwater cable channel, can really support some of the inferences made above, but I guess I’ll bow to people who know more on that one until I hear a retort. My real question is where the hell is GSP going to put 30 lbs. of muscle? I can see another 10 or so, but he looks relatively maxed out unless he’s going to turn into a cartoon character. How can he possibly put that much weight on his frame and retain any flexibility?
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 10, 2011 6:50 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Yeah I agree
He’s as fuckin ripped as they come, I don’t even know where another 10 pounds would go honestly. GSP is a natural ww. I don’t want to see the fight if he has to move up, but like quite a few guys mentioned in the threads from yesterday, if the fight happens it needs to be at a catch-weight. Make it 177, that way if GSP loses, he could say fuck it and stay at ww. If he wins (I don’t think he will) then he’d likely be confident enough to make a move at mw.
I know that if I managed to beat the most dynamic and dangerous fighter who fights at a weight class above mine, I’d be super confident that I could do the same to other men from that same class.
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 9:25 AM EST up reply actions
I'm a little confused at all this weight talk, even from GSP.
What does he weigh come fight time during a normal WW tilt? 185-188 or something? Why doesn’t he just not cut weight and fight at MW?
I realize Silva would have a sizeable weight advantage on fight night under this scenario, but to that I’d say:
a) It wouldn’t be too much more than, say, Thiago Alves had during their bout
b) It wouldn’t differ too much, by percentage, from small vs large heavyweight bout
c) GSP wouldn’t have to worry about adjusting his frame to suit the added muscle, depleting his gas tank etc. He would be fighting, essentially, as the GSP we’ve always seen him, and beacause of that, win or lose, there are fewer excuses.
If he plans on adding the muscle, I really think he should get a tune up fight first.
Thoughts?
He has weighed 192 in the cage for sure as a WW (against Hardy), and Anderson doesn’t really cut weight. However, other many other MWs do, so if he really is moving up permanently, he needs to add 10-15 pounds imo.
Definitely agree about a “tune up” or test fight at MW first.
Still think a 178ish CW is the way to go.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 11, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I don't fully understand it, but I do at the same time
if that makes any sense. He already fights in the cage as a ww at least 15-20 pounds heavier than 170 as Ronin pointed out, so in my head I’m thinking he could easily put on an extra 2-3 pounds and come into the cage at a solid 195 in a mw bout and have success. But this is professional fighting and guys want to have any and every advantage as possible even if it’s just 1 or 2 pounds. GSP wants to make sure that he has done as much as possible for him to do (training, proper weight gain, game plan, etc.) before he dabbles around with jumping up a weight class, ESPECIALLY if his very first opponent in said weight class is non other than the ANDERSON SILVA!!! So yeah, everyone doesn’t have that “fuck the consequences, I’ll fight whoever” mentality like Penn or Fedor lol.
I personally think that he’s ready, but that’s just me. I agree with the Thiago Silva fight for reference as well, but even Thiago would be on the “small” end when it comes to mw I think.
Basically GSP is knowlegeable in knowing that if he can come into a 170 fight at 190, then it’s highly possible, or he even knows that there are some mw’s who come into a 185 fight at 205+. At his weight now it’s very possible for him to be outweighed by 10-15 pounds by damn near every mw at that class, and he doesn’t want to be at risk of having that big of a disadvantage. Of course he could still possibly do well against a Bisping or Akiyama having outweigh him by 10-15 pounds…and that’s a big maybe, but what would he do against much larger guys that outweigh him by 15 pounds who are also adept in the wrestling dept??? Guys like Chael, Nate, and Belcher…well I’m not sure about Belcher’s wrestling, but he’s pretty damn big.
So yeah those are my thoughts.
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
Pretty much agree with you here. I don’t want Georges to move to MW, just one FIVE ROUND superfight. The real issue is gettting Anderson’s weight down rather than GSP going up. I don’t care if they invent a damn weight class just for this one fight, but all this talk from Georges about 30 lbs. sounds like setting himself up to either ask for a bigger check for this fight, or to turn the fight down on the basis that such weight gain as muscle is impossible for him. Really hope it’s the former.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 11, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
I’m not sure about Nate or Belcher, but Sonnen was reported to be 207 in the cage for the Anderson fight. IIRC, the heaviest GSP has been in the cage is 192 (for Hardy). Several of the MWs don’t really cut weight (including Anderson, whose game has never really been predicated on size/weight anyway), but many do.
I am in the distinct minority with this, but I think this is best done at a 177-180 CW. Not because the in-cage weights would be “virtually identical” between them at MW (and they would), but because I think both fighters are better served keeping their respective belts.
IF GSP beats Anderson at a CW, then he can decide if he is better off moving up or staying at WW against the top guys he hasn’t fought and the next generation of guys coming up (Condit, Story, Hendricks, Askren soon enough, Ellenburger, etc.)
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 12, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
Any person can get bigger and more muscular
The concept of a ‘natural frame’ is mainly false and what truth there is, is wildly exaggerated.
A person’s frame has much more to do with height than anything.
Between people of the same height, a ‘large frame’ is only about 10% bigger than an ‘medium frame’, a ‘small frame’ being 10% small than that.
These measurement have to do with the wrists and elbows. Not the shoulders and hips.
As any person gains mass on the shoulders and hips, they will appear to have a ‘bigger frame’.
I’ve seen first hand, many many times where a small person became a very large person and vice versa. Unless you had seen them in the past, you would have no idea they ever where a different size.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Well to be more specific, I know he CAN put on 30 lbs. of muscle, but I think it’s virtually impossible to put that much on, retain the speed and flexibility, and get comfortable fighting with great cardio in less than a year. Impossible. The underlying point for me is whether Georges is just tossing out a random high number, or if he believes this, and what are his motivations in saying it. I do think he wants to milk the UFC as much as possible for taking the chance he’s taking. It could go very wrong in the short term, and Anderson is getting too old to wait another year or more for this fight.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 11, 2011 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think he believes most of it
He’s a business man.
I highly doubt he feels the need to be 220+ to fight in a weight class short on powerful wrestlers with a great striking game.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
My real question is where the hell is GSP going to put 30 lbs. of muscle? I can see another 10 or so, but he looks relatively maxed out unless he’s going to turn into a cartoon character. How can he possibly put that much weight on his frame and retain any flexibility?
I was answering the questions.
He’s not locked into a certain size and flexibility(range of motion) does not have to decrease as you get bigger.
There are NFL lineman who can do the splits. Losing flexibility would be the least of his worries. As you as you stretch, you will be flexible.
There is a certain point where hulking muscle begins to restrict ROM. Not due to lack of flexibility but impedance of the actual joint. For example, the bicep can become too big to fully flexed(touch the palm to the shoulder.
That point is much bigger than 220lbs.
If he gained weight he wouldn’t look cartoonish, unless you consider Rashad cartoonish. He’ll look different, but he certainly wouldn’t the first 5’10" 220lb athlete we’ve seen.
How many football players have those dimensions and are lightning fast(faster than Georges’)?
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Hmm. You make some good points. I just can’t imagine him being able to do it and still be at his best, within the time frame being discussed for a fight with Silva. That much muscle gain just seems fraught with consequences for Georges game. His speed, timing and endurance could all take a long time to get comfortable with. If this fight is going to happen this year, adding all that muscle just isn’t in the equation.
What's this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with itself? The land contend with the sea? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not one power, but two?
by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 11, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
For sure
He doesn’t need it and it wouldn’t help him fight better anyway IMO.
I think he’s just talking a bunch of BS for various reasons.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
I truly think all of the posturing, by GSP, Dana and Anderson, has to do with maximizing paydays, and nothing more. I assure you, both GSP and Anderson believe without the slightest doubt that they can beat one another at essentially any weight.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 12, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
The only reason for GSP adding 30 pounds of muscle would be if he planned to move to LHW. He could not add 30 pounds of lean mass and still make the cut at MW. 15-18 or so pounds is the max he could add and still make the cut as easily (and without effect) as he does now. With 18 pounds of lean mass added, he would enter the cage around 210, making him one of the heaviest high level MWs.
If he really is moving permanently, 7-10 pounds would suffice for the Anderson fight (and he would be 10 pounds or so heavier than Anderson in the cage), then if he wanted to add more he could.
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." -Mark Twain
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne
by The American Ronin on Mar 12, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
i completely agree with both posts
GSP is no punk, but he’s no dummy.
Anderson, well, he doesn’t give a fuck as long as you spell his name right. Dsns feels the same.
IMO, at 205lbs, St. Pierre would be a MW demi-god.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Realistically GSP will only be 200 lbs, or slightly more.
However, 200 lbs ripped is enough for such a gifted athlete and wrestler like GSP. Most fighters are not as lean as GSP, so who cares if they caring 10-15 lbs more fat. Fat is dead weight that only slows a fighter down and takes energy to carry around the cage. It’s hardly worth the slight advantage of extra weight behind a punch, because dead weight will hinder the amount (and speed) of strikes landed.
I like how Dana says "If you don't like it, don't pay for it"
Looks like people who don’t like it and it’s free aren’t watching it either. Sometimes less is more.12 PPV’s a year is more than enough, They could probably scale it back to make 8 stacked PPV cards. The trouble is getting fighters enough fights in a year. I think UFC are doing this juggling act of keeping fighters active but trying to put on profitable cards. I’m sure they still made money on that versus show, and I think Thursday is just an odd day to have a live MMA show on. Wednesdays for TUF, Saturdays for UFC shows it’s become a pattern UFC fans have got used to.
they definitely made money in the short term on the versus show
since it’s above versus’ usual ratings and they pay a hefty licensing fee. but it’s short term money if the ratings are shrinking instead of growing.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I'd wait for the next Saturday show on Versus before jumping to any conclusions
Thursday is a wierd night for MMA and besides the FFT2 ratings were a massive increase on Marquardt vs. Palhares so it’s swings and roundabouts really.
http://unintelligentdefense.blogspot.com
by MattParker117 on Mar 10, 2011 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
Since when did financial reasons become such a good excuse?
I tire of the almighty dollar being such a universal all-situation reason for doing or not doing something. Money has always been a part of the picture, but now it seems to override all other considerations to a lot of people. I’m pretty sure UFC 1 wasn’t about just the money … it was about which style and which fighter was the BEST.
As a fan of the sport, I want to see the #1 and #2 P4P ranked fighters actually compete against each other. They are ONE weight division apart. It is by no means an insurmountable or unreasonable challenge. Is it a formidable challenge for GSP? Sure. But that’s what legends are made of. Legends don’t shirk from challenges. If he avoids this fight because his sponsors didn’t want him to, is it going to tarnish his legacy in my eyes? You’re damn right it is.
GSP has said he wants to be viewed as one of the all-time greats by the time his career is done. Right now he has the perfect opportunity to cement his legacy. Time to put his money where his mouth is.
GSP's future kids aren't going to go hungry if he loses this fight
He’s made a significant amount of money in the UFC. It’s not like he won’t be able to live an affluent lifestyle either way.
Do your eyes matter? You can be damn sure they won’t. If GSP does not take this fight it will not damage him in the long run – unless you fully expect him to win. Then of course he’d be missing out on a lot ;)
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Never commented here before, but...
How much ‘leverage’ can GSP really have though? Where is he going to go fight? Strikeforce? Bellator?
If he wants to keep his legacy alive, he needs to fight the best, which is in the UFC. there might be ‘fun’ fights for him outside of the UFC, but definitely NONE that make as much sense as ANY of the fights Joe Silva gets to make for him.
end rant. Peace.
He doesn't have to leave the UFC to hurt their plans
He just has to refuse to fight Andy and keep beating the same guys at WW.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
And why would the UFC care? The fight against Silva is a one-time thing. Sure it will make them a lot of money but enough for them to ruin their payscale for years to come? Nope. Odds are the fight between Silva and GSP will simply not happen because of these very reasons.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
The reason why is the entire thesis of Nate's piece.
Contributor at cagepages.com Come check us out.
Head Kick Legend
More like Dave Meltzer’s thesis that he derived from
- a single event
- on Versus
- on an unusual weekday
- with Diego vs. Martin “Who?” Kampman as headliners
It’s obvious that the UFC is spreading out its product pretty thin. But these televised cards are little more than advertising to them. The only real measure of brand-value for the UFC are their PPVs, not some card on versus. At the end of 2011 there will be time enough to look back on the year and make this sort of conclusion (or not). This “deflated brand-value” is quite speculative and even if true, it means that they need to consolidate their cards more, build more talent, do whatever necessary to deepen the talentpool for the future – not put all their chips on a one-time event.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
by KGNLuc on Mar 10, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Dave Meltzer always speculates.
He was speculating how Lesnar was done with the UFC after his last fight. I still don’t understand why anyone would pay a subscription for these speculations. If I wanted these types of speculations, I’d stay up for a week straight on coke then drop 5 hits of acid.
Just Breed!
by ScoreCardOTN on Mar 10, 2011 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
Are you insane?
Meltzer has been meticulously reporting TV ratings for all things UFC for years, week to week. He knows MMA on TV better than anyone on staff and certainly better than you. And you done your homework and kept up with Meltzer’s reporting on ratings, you’d be able to see what everyone else is seeing: that TV ratings outside of a few bumps here or there are declining. The PPV product appears to be just fine, but the TV product is suffering in part because the UFC is robbing peter to pay paul.
Is Meltzer’s hunch that the brand is no longer the dominant driving force it once was speculation? Only if the term speculation ceases to have meaning. He’s not “guessing”. He’s offering an education opinion rooted in a shit ton of evidence. You’d do well to familiarize yourself with it.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Mar 10, 2011 11:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I do not dispute the ratings development but the conclusion is pure speculation. And of course an educated guess is still just that. Even speculation comes in different flavours. And since you seem to find my position so outrageously uninformed and stupid, help me and explain to me how the brand can be damaged and the 50-dollar-per-serving PPV product remains unaffected?
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
wonder
how many fights Dana will give the guy refusing to go along with his world domination plans though? GSP has some clout, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think some people get the pull that the UFC has. He will not be as big of a star for that long outside of Dana’s good graces, that point is almost non-debatable.
not that think it’s the way it should be, it’s fucked, it’s just reality. If he beats shields, and Uncle Dana wants this fight, he’s doing it. or else.
by Haloe T. Jones on Mar 10, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think Dana can force GSP to do this fight. He can put some pressure on him, sure – more likely he will offer some nice incentive. But White is too smart to burn his relationship with his biggest star over this. If George plays hardball the fight will simply not happen, White will switch back to his old tune (George is too small, I’d rather see Silva at LHW…) and that will be it.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
If GSP refuses the fight, DFW will just feed Silva an “unworthy” contender. Silva will get frustrated and lash out with his antics. Dana will then say Silva doesn’t “deserve” the fight with GSP after a performance like that and the Golden Boy’s image will be saved.
Just Breed!
by ScoreCardOTN on Mar 10, 2011 9:57 PM EST up reply actions
or else what?
In interviews, Dana will refer to him as the greatest welterweight in the history of the world instead of the greatest fighter.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions
St. Pierre knows [the UFC] needs him to fight Anderson Silva more than he needs that fight.
This is really the crux of it all- if he says no, it’s business as usual. And who knows, maybe they’ll start leaning on Anderson to take fights at 205 instead? Either way, they’re not going to contribute to a public sullying of one of their largest assets- you won’t hear Dana calling GSP “scared” or shitting on him in any way, simply because he’s so important to them.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn’t put it past Dana to turn on GSP if GSP starts failing to make Dana the most money (which a superfight would do).
To most casual fans of the sport, Dana is the sport. They follow him on Twitter and watch his YouTube vlogs even when they don’t know who’s fighting on the next UFC card.
Dana wouldn’t have to flat out SAY GSP is scared, he would just have to imply it and the fans would turn on GSP in a heartbeat.
All it would take is for Dana to say something like, “We want to make GSP vs Anderson Silva, but that’s not a fight GSP wants. I want it, the fans want it, Anderson wants it. The only person who doesn’t want it is GSP. I can’t make him fight someone he doesn’t want to fight. What can I do? It’s up to GSP, not me.”
by NoHo on Mar 10, 2011 7:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Its like this: If they trash GSP to try and knock down his popularity when he sells the most PPVs for them fighting whoever, that hurts the UFC. If GSP never fights Silva, it has no positive redeeming value and all they’ve done is shoot themselves in the foot and throw away millions. If he does, they may have damaged the sales of the megafight plus potentially damaged sales leading up to it or sales afterwards.
It would be like Dana White coming out right now and saying “Brock Lesnar sucks and can’t take a punch.”
by VirtualBalboa on Mar 10, 2011 8:09 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Its like this: If they trash GSP to try and knock down his popularity when he sells the most PPVs for them fighting whoever, that hurts the UFC.
But when the UFC comes back at GSP and says, “Look at the PPV numbers. You’re not as big of a draw as you use to be. We can’t justify paying you as much as your’e accustomed to with numbers like this.” And GSP knows it was a direct result of a knock on his popularity by HIM refusing the fight when DFW, AS, and the fans wanted it. And Jones has taken his place as the Golden Boy to supplement the numbers GSP was taking in.
Jones- “If that’s what Dana wanted.”
GSP- “He needs to fight Okami first.”
Just Breed!
by ScoreCardOTN on Mar 10, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
When Jones gets more comfortable
He’ll tell Dana to fuck himself too.
BJ Penn seems to hate Dana. Flat out. He says a lot of bad shit about him in his book. He damn sure doesn’t trust him.
Dana would blow BJ before he let him fight somewhere else.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
If they piss him off
he could take his ball and leave.
They would miss him more than he would miss them.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
We want to make GSP vs Anderson Silva, but that’s not a fight GSP wants. I want it, the fans want it, Anderson wants it. The only person who doesn’t want it is GSP. I can’t make him fight someone he doesn’t want to fight. What can I do? It’s up to GSP, not me."
It just doesn’t help them to say that. I know that Dana has no filter and isn’t above speaking honestly or controversially in promoter speak about his assets, but GSP is on another level than most of the other fighters, and if Dana starts a campaign to make GSP seem scared of that fight. he might as well start stealing money from himself.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
See, I disagree. What Dana effectively does by passive-aggressively calling GSP a coward is either, A) get GSP to take the fight or B) get the fans to begin calling GSP a coward and turn on him.
Let’s say GSP takes the fight and loses — then Dana can basically tell GSP to know his role, then can build him right back up. Everyone loves a comeback story.
If GSP doesn’t take the fight, there’s nothing Dana can do except continue calling him a coward and hope he loses so he can build his comeback story.
I think GSP has made a huge mistake in the way he carries himself because in a pugilistic sport such as MMA, if you carry yourself like a gentleman, the fans take it as a sign of weakness. GSP is a nice guy and he’s careful not to damage his reputation, but in turn, it means he sometimes can’t come out and say exactly what he means.
As this article states, the UFC has followed the WWE blueprint of making sure a figurehead is always more important and visible than its participants, and that’s what Dana is. He’s made himself the face. He’s featured prominently on everything from the reality show to the action figures. The UFC can survive without GSP, but it can’t without Dana.
The thing about the casual UFC audience is that they are not smart, and they are impressionable. It’s a dangerous audience to have. They think the best are whoever Dana and the UFC tell you are the best. All it takes is a few favorable matchups for an up and comer and the UFC has it’s new poster child in lieu of GSP.
by NoHo on Mar 10, 2011 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
1)
think GSP has made a huge mistake in the way he carries himself because in a pugilistic sport such as MMA, if you carry yourself like a gentleman, the fans take it as a sign of weakness.
If what he’s done thus far has been a mistake, I can’t imagine how much money he’ll make and what kind of legacy he’ll have if he fucks up.
2) The casual fan has no idea that this fight is even being considered. There are many ways in which Dana can handle the situation, should the fight not be made, why would he choose the one that would literally make the least money (publicly torment GSP)?
3) Of course the UFC can survive without GSP, it would even be able to survive without Dana, though it would be less profitable in each instance.
4) If you think that the next GSP is simply a few favorable match ups and Dana quotes away from replacing GSP, you simply do not understand how popular GSP is. For an example of this, see: Bisping, Michael
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 8:50 PM EST up reply actions
forgot to add....
The notion that not taking this fight ruins GSP- in the eyes of fans or his employers, is ludicrous.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 8:51 PM EST up reply actions
i don't find anything ridiculous about the notion
If he avoids this superfight, especially with the poor flimsy excuses he’s making, it sure as hell looks like he’s scared to take on Anderson Silva.
Look no further than the massive hit Floyd Mayweather Jr. has taken after repeatedly dodging a fight with Pacquiao. GSP is far more likeable than Mayweather, but that doesn’t mean his reputation won’t suffer also.
Dana isn’t going to start a war with GSP because GSP is the poster boy of Canadian MMA and as Dana says Canada is the Mecca of MMA. If Dana starts treating GSP like he treats Fitch he risks a huge back lash up here.
If Georges' ever left
He would still be a ridiculous draw in Canada and would probably single-handily make a company a pretty big success.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Not that it will ever happen(although you never know)
Do you think fans in Montreal would care any less about GSP if he was headlining a SF show against Woodley or Diaz?
Not to say they could get him or keep him, but a big time card with GSP headlining it would sell out in Canada no matter what initials were on it.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
see, that's where GSP is a game changer....
He’d be huge no matter where he went. At this point, he’s earned that in his career. I think if you take the long view, while GSP has all the leverage for this fight, I think that ultimately the UFC has more long term leverage. Sure, GSP could continue to make ridiculous amounts of money for dominating any promotion, but having the UFC brand, marketing budget and hype machine behind him will be his greatest chance to: earn the most money, be the most visible and carve out an impeccable legacy. Fedor and the media treatment of him show that no matter how good you are, no matter how long you’re that good for, your resume becomes suspect the minute you don’t have the “I’ve been fighting the best in the world” defense. It would happen to GSP also if he went anywhere else.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Financially
Georges’ will be on top no matter what, but from a sporting perspective the UFC is the place to be.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
I’m not sure where you are from TheFilt so you may or may not know this. But there is a LARGE piece of the population of Quebec that does not view Quebec as a part of Canada. They believe Quebec is a country in it’s own right. As such it has very few real stars. That moves GSP to the role of demi god in Quebec.
What Dana effectively does by passive-aggressively calling GSP a coward is either, A) get GSP to take the fight or B) get the fans to begin calling GSP a coward and turn on him.
Neither option as you present them really helps Dana make the fight happen though.
GSP’s been mentally tough enough not to get sucked into his opponents’ game plans – I doubt then the boss trying to manipulate him by telling him he’s chicken will really get under his skin and make him do something he doesn’t really want to do. And option B in particular merely hurts GSP’s brand, and by default the UFC’s as well since GSP is one of their biggest draws.
Let’s say GSP takes the fight and loses — then Dana can basically tell GSP to know his role, then can build him right back up. Everyone loves a comeback story.
Build him back up how exactly? By continuing to putter around in a weight class after being beaten by the champ, or by going back w/ his tail tucked in-between his legs to the WW division, and who knows how losing the muscle mass he’d have to gain to compete at MW would affect his body?
I think GSP has made a huge mistake in the way he carries himself because in a pugilistic sport such as MMA, if you carry yourself like a gentleman, the fans take it as a sign of weakness. GSP is a nice guy and he’s careful not to damage his reputation, but in turn, it means he sometimes can’t come out and say exactly what he means.
Considering how much better he’s done than most of the trash talkers in the sport, I think that’s a fairly ridiculous assertion to make.
The thing about the casual UFC audience is that they are not smart, and they are impressionable. It’s a dangerous audience to have. They think the best are whoever Dana and the UFC tell you are the best.
That’s why it’s a pretty bad idea for Dana as a promoter to bash his own fighters only because he’s trying to manipulate them into matches they’re hesitant about. Even the most skilled promoter can only play switcheroo w/ the audiences allegiances for so long before losing control of them. GSP’s the best, no wait he’s a coward, oh he’s not a coward…or is he?
All it takes is a few favorable matchups for an up and comer and the UFC has it’s new poster child in lieu of GSP.
Always a possibility, and something they should be doing anyway, really.
He has enough leverage to get maximum $$$.
I’m surprised how few people seem to understand what’s going on here. If GSP is jumping up and down with joy for this fight, Dana will offer him rock bottom what he thinks he can get away with. GSP simply wants his piece of the 60 million dollar pie this fight will generate. You can’t blame him for that. Any shrewed person would do the same.
I agree completely
A year and a half ago my close family would never DREAM of missing a UFC event. Now if we miss one, it’s not even a big deal because we’re really only missing one relevant fight per card. It’s so watered down now on most cards that it’s almost disappointing.
you just sound spoiled
I’ll admit that I use hyperbole to prove a point from time to time, but “one relevant fight per card?” please. Maybe you and i have a different definition of relevant.
Matt Janecek
MBA Candidate 2011
An MBA on MMA:
mba-mma.blogspot.com
how can you be spoiled if your paying sixty bucks a pop to watch?
by chunkyass on Mar 10, 2011 7:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He's not spoiled.
The UFC has been cycling favourite fighters out of the roster so they have room for TUF chumps that aren’t bringing any fanbase and, for the most part, hold no real promise.
I’m a big Ben Saunders fan, but he’s not around anymore. Half the TUF cast is, and they all suck.
The UFC has done a lot of things right over the last decade, but they suck at building fan favourites, and realizing that some fighters will draw an audience, even if they’re not a realistic shot at winning a belt, because we’re already invested in them.
That, and I’m really freaking sick of bad judges fucking up cards, fighters not trying to win because they want to stage a FotN slugfest instead, and good fights not being televised.
And $50 a pop is harsh. And I don’t get Versus or Ion.
That enough valid reasons to not care so much about a middle rung card?
Koscheck has frosted tips.
Ohter than Matt Brown....
which other middling TUF fighters are hanging around that clearly should have been cut? I think that for the most part that the UFC is a pretty functional meritocracy…especially now with the roster having to be trimmed post-merger. Typically even if your losing, if your excitiing and interesting and can bring a few eyeballs, you’ll get ample opportunity to earn your spot.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
Most TUF fighters would never make the UFC without TUF as a launching pad.
I mean, come on now, is Nick Ring really UFC material? And yet he was the big swinging dick of the last season.
How about the number of fights wasted on James McSweeney?
Escudero, Lutter, Caceres, Starnes… Junie?
Koscheck has frosted tips.
Yeah in all honesty I don’t put much stock at all in TUF fighters, like zero. I watch the show though, but just from the last season alone I can’t fathom Bruce Leroy, Michael Johnson, the guillotine choke guy, and not even the TUF winner (who got completely fucking decimated by Jose Aldo), Brookins make a splash or become a contender at lw.
Sure Lutter, Kenny, Diego and others have made waves and even Forrest held the lhw belt once, but even then Forrest never struck me as the caliber of fighter as an Anderson, Lyoto, Shogun, Chuck, Franklin etc.
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 9:39 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, losing to Josa Aldo is really a black mark on a resume. And he made it to the 3rd round with him- wioch impresses me. I don’t think Brookins is gonna be much but I hate when people point to his Aldo loss as proof of that- the Aldo loss should be a positive in his career, considering how people with a much better resume than him couldn’t make it out of the first 5 minutes.
And Ozzz-Nick Ring only had one fight- and do you think that if he has another lackluster showing, he’ll still be here? If you didn’t win TUF and you lose 2 straight, you’re out.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 11, 2011 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
But that's my point.
He’s not there because he earned it, and for him to be there now is only possible because someone else got moved out to make room for him and the other TUFfers.
Season one, everyone was fighting to win that UFC contract that the winner would receive. Now? Half the field gets one.
And they do not merit one.
Koscheck has frosted tips.
Wait…wasn’t Ben Saunders a TUF chump without real promise himself?
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
I'm not saying everyone who ever TUFfed sucks ass.
But since about season four, it’s rank.
Koscheck has frosted tips.
If the UFC is going to continue to grow at anything like it’s growth rate from 2005-2010
Then it needs to make a deal with the Devil. There’s no way to sustain that rate of growth. Maintaining the increase is impressive enough.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com and Bloody Elbow Radio
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Mar 10, 2011 7:00 PM EST reply actions
good point
That deal with the devil may be the rumored NBC/Comcast deal. Whether or not it’s the devil will depend on how much control the UFC is relinquishing to have access to network-level numbers.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
ROME!!! Awesome! Is he a permanent fixture at SBN?
.
It’s “BE alumnus Michael Rome”, by the way…
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Mar 10, 2011 7:00 PM EST reply actions
Pedantic liberal arts educations sometimes have their benefits.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Mar 10, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
Indeed
Shallow and pedantic.
Sorry, can’t help myself. Everytime I see “pedantic” it reminds me of Family Guy. (back when it was funny)
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Mar 10, 2011 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
BLASPHEMY!!!
Family Guy is still funny! Well I haven’t seen any new episodes for quite some time though because my gf hates the show so idk :(
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t agree that the rating for the recent UFC on Versus is indicative of the brand being weakened, at all. One result does not a trend make. Also, look at that card- it wasn’t gangbusters, but you’re right, the UFC is training us that not every card is a must see event. However, our viewing habits will also train them- if it does turn out to be a trend, then the UFC will be forced to more evenly distribute the best fights over multiple cards, including the free tv ones. Look at the next 4 cards- all stacked. If then next FN or VS show continues to demonstrate a decline in viewership, that issue can be easily remedied by taking the 3rd or 4th PPV fight and putting that on a free card. Also, we are now only beginning to see the ramifications of the WEC merger- with 7 weight classes, and a potential 20-something title fights a year, the average quality of UFC cards is going to increase.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 7:01 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Exactly.
First look at Versus, now I dont know much about how tv promotion works but I do notice that you will never see a commercial on USA for a Spike FIght night. You see PPV commercials on all channels but for a Spike or Versus card you wont see that being advertised on other networks, only Spike or Versus, whichever the network its on. So you have to be watching Versus to see the commercials promoting the event and who the hell is watching Versus? I dont watch Hockey, so I dont watch Versus, but I’m a hardcore fan so i know the event is gonna be on. But fans who arent they dont even know the event is on.
You cant sit there and say 2 mill watch on SPike but 600k watch on versus, you cant tell me 1.4 mill people just didnt care about this free UFC event. Most probably didnt know cause they dont watch Versus to see the promos. Atleast with Spike they know thats the UFC home, UFC unleashed, Fight nights are shown every night at 12am on Spike, TUF, they have ways of seeing promos for upcoming Spike events so they know ok Fight night is this month. They dont get that with Versus cause they arent watching Versus to see the promos.
Versus is a shit network. Now whether they kept that deal to get on NBC, or maybe NBC rebrands Versus as NBC Sports and puts football and other sports on the channel making it a rival to ESPN as a major sports network and that can be the UFC home thats fine, but right now Versus is a shit network to be on. It could be they just wanted another outlet for fights, they wanted to keep SF or Belaltor or an upstart org from getting that deal which could lead to NBC, whatever the reason they did this deal thats fine, its just right now not a good deal to have.
But if they want ratings they have to up the cards. I’m talking PPV co main event type fight, even a Fitch/BJ type fight.
You put a Bisping/Sonnen, Fitch/BJ rematch, even a title fight, yeah I know they dont air title fights on cable, but maybe BW or FW title fight, with the UFC brand, Aldo, UFC name, you could do that and it would be big. I’m sure Spike would shit a brick that they helped build the UFC to what it is and they’ve only had 1 live, well it wasnt live, one title fight on Spike UFC 75.
But you have to make the card big. I’m sure some would say why would you ever put Sonnen/Bisping on free tv, that fight with te shit talking would be a mega co main event on any PPV. The thing is if you want ratings you have to make the cards better.
Yes the UFC is doig so many events every card cant be great.
Personally I have a hard time going week to week or waiting two weeks for mma, so if the UFC did less events, yeah the events would be stacked, but I hate having to wait two weeks between events, so I want them to do alot of events.
I just think people need to stop overreacting about a rating for a Versus event on Thurs headlined by Martin Kampmann.
We all know Spike is the UFC home, and PPV is how they make money.
UFC just did 2 mill for a Spike prelim for 126, so lets chill out.
128 is a great card, 129 huge, 130 is stacked, 131 with Brock coming off TUF is huge, TUF coming up shorty is gonna be mega, Fight night coming up in 2 weeks is very solid, sure losing Tito hurt cause he is a name and being free on Spike would have gotten good ratings but Davis vs Nog is good fight, Hardy, Rumble, its a good card.
One thing I’m surprised at is they always do a fight night leading into tuF, why didnt they do that this time?
Going back if Tito was on the card, think about that card, Tito then leading right into Brock on TUF, think of the ratings they would have gotten. Why do the fight night on Sat then TUF on Wed?
Will not having a night of fights to lead into the new season hurt the ratings for TUF? I mean can you remember the last time they didnt have a fight night to lead into spike?
"I don’t agree that the rating for the recent UFC on Versus is indicative of the brand being weakened, at all."
Oh my fucking god. Do you people hear yourself? Anyone who recs this should be shot in the office with a squirt filled with battery acid. MELTZER IS NOT BASING JACK SHIT ON ONE EVENT ON VERSUS. He’s been tracing the trajectory of UFC ratings since they’ve been on TV and more specifically, in the last year to identify patterns.
What the fuck is going on here today?
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Mar 10, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
You need to respect the baby... 'cause life is precious... and God... and the Bible.
by timetraveltome on Mar 11, 2011 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
Without a subscription
How would anyone read the article to know?
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
When it comes to Versus he doesn’t have many events as a base any which way you turn it. :)
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Exactly
He only has 3 events to base his predictions on. I mean maybe he also uses the ratings from ION or the UFC Fight Night ratings or something, but it’s been only 3 Versus cards, and the first 2 did fairly well if I’m not mistaken. I believe that there is a decline though, for insance Versus1>Versus2>Versus3, but 3 didn’t necessarily have the big names on there and it was on a Thursday.
Now if Versus 4 and Versus 5 both feature bigger names and exciting fights and the ratings still show a steady decline, then I’d be like yeah their brand may be weakening when it comes to free televised events. But I guess I’m a “hardcore”, I don’t get to watch very many ppv’s, but I’d be damned if I’m gonna miss a free card.
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
Argh
Why do people keep bringing up the assertion that once GSP moves to 185, he can’t move back down? Muscle is not bone. It can be lost very easily. Just eat less, lay off the weights. He might not want to move back down for other reasons, but losing muscle is not one of them,
Even if it can be done, GSP said he doesn’t want to do that.
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Mar 10, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
If I recall correctly, the original context was that he wasn’t going to be moving back and forth from WW to MW. Well, if he lost to Silva, he could always just move back to WW. There’s nothing holding him to stay at MW.
Obviously, it’s a lot of trouble to have to pack on 15 pounds of muscle and once he puts it on, he might not want to have to take it off. But if he gets tooled by Silva, I’m sure he’ll be willing to part with it.
no...
he said that he doesn’t want his reaction time to slow in order to accommodate the extra weight, then not come back when he goes back down.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Please educate me on how, exactly, does moving up in weight, then losing it, causes a reduction of reaction time. Is this a central nervous system thing? Or something else?
by Pantherhare on Mar 10, 2011 11:58 PM EST up reply actions
I think its a misnomer
Reaction time is the time between a stimulus and a response.
I think Georges(and John) is meaning to say, that his motor units won’t fire as quickly if he messes with his body composition too much.
While there is some anecdotal evidence to prove this, there is also plenty of examples that disprove it.
Basically, its up to each individual; depending on genetics, diet and training.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
because GSP is the one insisting
that if he goes up,it’s for good. That didn’t come from a fan forum.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
That’s the point. That’s what GSP is saying. Which goes back to, it’s likely a negotiation tactic by GSP. It’s a lot of trouble to put on 15 pounds of muscles, he wants to be compensated for it.
My point is that we should stop quoting that out of context like it’s an undeniable truth. If GSP gets tooled at MW, he definitely can, and probably will, return to continue dominating at WW.
Anderson hasn't looked the same since going to 205 and back to 185.
Roy Jones lost his mojo after going to heavyweight and moving back to cruiserweight.
This isn’t GSP risking one fight. This is him risking time off from his athletic prime to go to a less-than-optimal weight with a distinct chance that he’ll never return to the weight class he ran roughshod over, or that he won’t be the same once he does.
But hey, we’re MMA fans! Lets ask him to not take advantage of his peak earning period in a career that offers no retirement or pension programs!
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Just a point about Roy Jones’ move to heavyweight and comparing it to GSP here – he fought the guy considered the weakest belt holder at the weight (Ruiz) in a PPV in which Ruiz took literally all of the financial risk. Roy Jones’ career is built off risk management to a frightening degree and HBO foolishly allowed him to do it. GSP can’t be compared to Roy Jones as a light heavyweight in any capacity, so far as Jones never even faced the legitimate champion at his weight. If this were about how GSP was demanding to self promote a fight with Silva and only offer Anderson money based on the buys exceeding a certain number and how he wouldn’t take the fight without it, that would be one thing. Its not what this is.
by VirtualBalboa on Mar 10, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
(and yes, I know you were really comparing Jones to Silva. Don’t worry)
by VirtualBalboa on Mar 10, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I'm using Jones as a predictor for GSP
but only in the physical sense of moving up weight then dropping back. You make a good point about risk management and the business aspects, I’m focusing on the direct physical tax it takes on an athlete’s body.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Do you think RJJ’s drop in performance had anything to do with him being in his mid 30s at the time and having quite a long history in a brutal sport?
As long as we’re looking at sample sizes of one, how about BJ Penn? He ballooned up to 191 lbs to fight Machida, but regained his form at LW. Did his reaction time diminish in the process?
And again, what is the physical tax on an athlete’s body from putting on muscle and then losing it, in a gradual and controlled manner? I’m genuinely curious as to what people think happens.
by Pantherhare on Mar 11, 2011 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
That's a good point
with the BJ Penn reference, kudos to you. That crazy bastard packed on 30 pounds of just fucking weight lol, not muscle mass, but just weight to fight a Lyoto Machida that outweighed him by 30 pounds!
BJ is fucking crazy man, I just took another look at his record: After Gomi he moved up to ww to fight Matt Hughes, said “fuck it I’m already big, whats another 15 pounds?” and fought Rodrigo Gracie at mw, then said “you know what? I might as well…” and put on a few more pounds to fight fucking Lyoto. Loss that fight and was like aight let me go back down, but on the way back down he fought ANOTHER fight at mw fighting yet ANOTHER Gracie. Then while continuing on his way back down he took on the greats GSP and Hughes for a second time before eventually settling back into his natural weight class and destroying the lw division for about 2 years. The guy is most definitely a true fighter.
by SentientAndroid on Mar 11, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
GSP has sited reaction time specifically as being the biggest change in a fighter who goes up… I believe what he’s saying. You may be right, in the sense that you can’t put your foot in the same river twie, and GSP’s reality may be much different in 6-12 months, but given the facts as we have them right now, it seems as if to him it’s either move up for good or not at all.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Damn I missed Rome!
He’s always able to cut through a lot of the bullshit and noise and deliver a well thought out, reasonable and sane argument. It’s great to read his stuff again. His departure at the time was a huge loss for BE.
by pud333 on Mar 10, 2011 7:03 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
I miss Rome almost anytime anything about the business side comes up.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Mar 10, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
Fuck that, he wasn’t bad about breaking down fights either.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Mar 10, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
Luke was addressing this on his show Sunday and I he was on point as well. This is turning into a multi-faceted issue and with the public now wanting the fight more than ever, the pressure for it to happen will only get stronger. It will be interesting to see how the UFC handles this.
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Same way they handle all Silva fights.
They lock someone in the cage with him and then Mr.Anderson goes all matrix on them.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Mar 10, 2011 7:15 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
the same way Oscar De La Hoya tries to get his wallet back....
$, then $$, then $$$$ if need be.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
WWE is the answer
The UFC, honestly, needs to take some risks. While a lot of people hate on pro wrestling and the showmanship associated with it, I feel the UFC should be doing even more to partner with McMahon and company. The fact is, the two brands are symbiotic, and WWE still reaches FAR more people than MMA.
So how could they mix, aside from Lesnar and Lashley? More cross-promotion, for one. But the obvious thing is to have fighters from either organization cross-compete. As we know, many WWE fighters have legitimate wrestling and martial arts backgrounds. The octagon could give appropriate fighters a chance to settle their “feuds” in a real setting, or to do as Brock did and compete legitimately.
Conversely, performing in the WWE could give willing UFC fighters another payday, sans the risks associated with the octagon. UFC and WWE could even do as they do in Japan and have mixed events.
I realize the UFC, and fans on this SBNation, fear that the general public and uninformed will conflate the fake fighting that is pro wrestling with the legitimate sport that is MMA. But the reality is that MMA has huge crossover appeal and wrestling has an unstoppable promotional engine.
impossible. The risk for the UFC to be labled as “fake” is far, far too great. Every fucked up judges decision could be attributed to the fight being worked. Every Pettis-kick will no longer be seen as an in credible athletic display but as engineered showmanship. The UFC does this, the terrorists win…and Strikforce…and Bellator.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
I think that's a slippery slope.
Partnering to the level of consistent cross-promotion would turn off a huge portion of the UFC’s fans, while also blurring the lines between works and legitimate outcomes. Also, the WWE and pro-wrestling is one or two deaths away from ending up on Congress’ docket. I don’t know if a legitimate sport wants to play near that puddle, lest they get splashed and dirtied.
by John Danaher's Hair on Mar 10, 2011 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
horrible idea.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Mar 10, 2011 7:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Zuh?
If he’s able to give the fans Georges St. Pierre vs. Anderson Silva while boxing fails to deliver Manny Pacquaio vs. Floyd Mayweather, it will serve as White’s ultimate validation. If he chooses not to pay what it takes to make it happen, it will prove that he is no different than the boxing promoters he’s spent years deriding.
I don’t get how Rome outlines what makes the GSP situation so unique while then coming to this particular conclusion. For all of Dana’s faults, he can never be blamed for not trying to make the big fights happen. Liddell/Silva, Lesnar/Fedor…these fights fell apart for plenty of reasons, but I don’t see how it could be argued that the blame lies with Dana in these cases. And this fight is no different. GSP is either putting on his business suit, or he’s having his Dave Chappelle moment.
Hopefully GSP's new management team are ready to get their hands dirty
If Rome and Nate are right, this is kind of a big moment in the sports business history.
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Head Kick Legend
Good for the fighters.
The UFC and Dana White have poached on the fighters naivety since the UFC has gotten big back in 2005. They would ask them if they want to be an ultimate fighter and in turn would pay them as little as they could, but put them in fights that would make the UFC the most amount of money, while paying the fighters the least amount possible.
Fighters are starting to smarten up now. I think they saw how someone like Carwin was on one of the biggest PPV’s ever that had upwards of a million buys at $50 a pop, yet only made a paltry $40K for his efforts.
Zuffa is making money hand over fist with these events. As this article state, they are making upwards of $60,000,000 in revenue in a SINGLE night, yet when you look at the fighter payroll, these guys aren’t getting ANY of that. Sure, maybe there are secret locker room bonuses, but if there is, they aren’t anywhere near as much as these guys should be making. Couple that with how these guys sponsors must pay Zuffa a sponsor fee for the chance to even sponsor the fighter, and you can see how these men are really taking it up the rear.
by NoHo on Mar 10, 2011 7:24 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I agree the Vs. ratings was likely dissapointing to the UFC, but I disagree with Meltzer that is was terrible. It’s on a station UFC has run 3 times, on a Thursday night without a big draw, and it was Vs. top rated show of the week.
As far as GSP having more leverage than Fedor and M-1, as others have pointed out not really because GSP isn’t a free agent. Also, Anderson’s PPV rates have been trending upwards and GSP is a great PPV draw, so one could make the counter argument that it’s in UFC’s best interest to NOT have them fight and continue to build up challengers and have the two headline several PPVs on their own if they’re really becoming more star driven. Geez, all 127 had to do was about 300-350k buyrates and UFC did 1m buys for February, sky isn’t exactly falling.
I appreciate all the kind words. I’ve missed the writing and interaction. I don’t know if I’ll be a regular feature over there but you never know.
I believe this fight is a watershed moment for the sport. If you’re a fan of other sports, you’re aware of how much individual contract negotiations for one athlete matter to others in the sport. To give a recent example, star baseball players are very much hoping Albert Pujols gets the deal he was asking for, because it will help them in the future. Similarly, other major MMA stars will benefit in a big way if GSP can cash in on this fight.
And why shouldn’t he? He is the central player in a monster revenue event. There is a number that will be enough to convince GSP to go up to 185. I’m not looking to “blame” anyone, but if this fight does not happen it is because the UFC refused to hit that number.
Q: Who benefits from each possible scenario – GSP winning, Silva winning, and them not fighting at all?
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The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Mar 10, 2011 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
As someone who’s been making the argument Rome did forever, I’ll take a guess:
GSP Wins: He’s already a huge star; argurably the biggest in the UFC. It probably doesn’t make him any bigger of a star. Unless there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, he doesn’t chase it.
Silva Wins: Ed Soares will have a fighter that will be universally considered the P4P best and who just spanked GSP to likely rise in stature. That equation means that they will demand cash. Lots of it too. Until he has that win, yeah; not happening.
Not fighting at all: The UFC delays the inevitable destruction of their payscale for perhaps a couple of years. Depending on the sport’s future, forever. Silva and GSP comfortably make money fighting opponents in their divisions until they lose.
by VirtualBalboa on Mar 10, 2011 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
If GSP wins he moves from “one of the greatest P4P” to “THE BEST P4P EVER” in both many fans minds and the UFC promos. I think his stock will increase significantly if he wins it. How much of that will result in wider recognition / any other monetizable value is in question however.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
A:
GSP winning : GSP & UFC benefits.
Silva winning : Silva benefits. UFC potentially benefits with the right spin/marketing. GSP also benefits (reputation amongst hardcores), as he’s respected for taking the fight, regardless of outcome.
No fight : Everyone loses. GSP is branded as “scared” (not my sentiment), Dana fails to pull off another superfight and Anderson remains relatively (relatively) unknown.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Mar 10, 2011 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
The problem the fighters have in the UFC is that the only way for them to have any sort of leverage is if they ALWAYS win. Then the ball is in their court, but as we see in MMA, nobody ALWAYS wins, and if you do, you’re probably not very entertaining and not a draw so the fans don’t care about you, so even with a win streak, you don’t have any leverage.
When you get to the UFC, they say, “Great! You’re in the UFC, now sign this 5 fight contract and when you finish it, we can negotiate an even better one when you keep winning!” but hardly anybody ever wins 5 fights in a row in the UFC, so when it’s time to negotiate, UFC says, “Well, you went 3-2, so we’re not going to pay you the same amount we did before. Or you can walk, we don’t need you.”
it will take someone dominant ala GSP to really get the ball rolling and getting the power into the actual competitors hands.
Rome, you were always my favorite
But I need you to let the vacuum you left suck for just a little bit longer. I can feel it.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Mar 10, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions
the more i think about this fight, i see it as a lose-lose
for both fighters IF it is for a divisional title
i think a catchweight has to be the move here – you get the superfight without putting both divisions into a chaotic state.
this would HAVE to be a 5 rounder though
Leverage
I has it.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Mar 10, 2011 7:34 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
I think BJ set a
precedent with the Gomi fight and Zuffa will never allow that to happen again. The current problem is how well paid the popular champions are. No promotion can pay him and not go bankrupt and even if he manages to pull off a PPV against a great non Zuffa fighter, then what?
I think we will see a fighters association before we see a GSP type holdout.
Did Dave Meltzer also mention that the UFC on Versus 3
Was the highest rated program on Versus for last week?
yeah he did
he also said the UFC better outperform the rest of their programming due to the high licensing fee they’re paying for it.
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Sellout of 55k Seats in Toronto Gives GSP Leverage as well...
along with the quick sellouts that are occurring in Montreal when GSP hosts.
I for one am happy at the thought that there is some pressure on the UFC to maintain and improve the quality of their cards. 12+ watered down cards a year and suddenly my PPV purchase is giving me less entertainment than it once did.
I love that the UFC puts value in their belts
To me the UFC have relative ease in negotiations becuase their belts means one is the best in the world. That’s why one of the real rasons rapage was pissed at the ufc is because he denied hum a belt shot and instead made him do tuf and fight evans in memphis. The reason Rashad didn’t want to make money and chose to wait for shogun was he was afraid to lose the number one conder slot. To me dana can make wtvr fights he chooses within that system. Now he wants a guy to vie for a new belt and then the problem starts a guy who has proven he is the best in the world and now we talk about GSP’s brand and bargaining power.
by Joshro on Mar 10, 2011 10:08 PM EST via mobile reply actions
too had to proof read on the pda sorry hope people can make out my nonsense
by Joshro on Mar 10, 2011 10:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Irony?
There seems to be this push/pull between the UFC brand the fighters, but I don’t really see that. The UFC brand name trumps all other promotions, but where do they attempt to use the brand to stifle the popularity of the fighters?
What I do see is after the announcement of fight cards, writers try to tell us if a card is good or not based on how well the main event fighters draw. When Edgar Maynard came around it seemed like everyone was trying to convince everyone else not to watch. It gets to a point where you see Dana defending matchups.
The UFC announces matchups, buys commercial time, and produces countdown shows to introduce the fighters and explain why they’re interesting. Writers tell us when they think a card will be bad because certain fighters aren’t worth our attention.
What gives?
PS What do other promotions do for their fighters so differently than the UFC?
The reality is that UFC are shattering their own records with each consequent year. It is really convenient to look at ratings, see a number and make the conclusions and on paper these conclusions maybe true, but you should take all the other variables into account. Melzer is a great journalist and has huge background in pro wrestling and he has seen companies rise and go, but he is not statistician land he lacks all the available information. In the UFC work the best specialists in that field and they can estimate the success of the show.
The way I see it is a great show and that is all that matters. It is better for the UFC to have a great fight card, that wasn’t seen by many people that to have an awfully bad card, that was seen by vast majority of people. Why? Replays count. When you have an epic fight like Diego vs. Kampmann those word spreads around and people bother to care. Remember the TUF 1 finale? The ratings rose through the roof because people started calling each other to tune and see that crazy fight.
GSP and Silva are not bigger than the brand, they are the brand. This is the main loophole when comparing UFC to boxing or WWE. UFC doesn’t brand only the fighters, but they brand the whole promotion. The main fact that people are missing is that the PPV industry is dying. Look at the numbers WWE are making, they are going down every year. Look at Boxing, they have 1-2 big fights per year, which people bother to watch. The UFC have PPVs every third week and are putting great numbers. 200k for an event in Australia is huge.
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