UFC 127 Results: Don't Give Up on B.J. Penn
by Nate Wilcox on Feb 27, 2011 11:29 PM EST
in UFC Analysis
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B.J. Penn came out last night and shocked Jon Fitch by taking him down in both the first and second rounds. Fitch was able to evade Penn's choke attempts and in both instances ended up on top, but it was enough for two judges to award Penn both rounds 1 and 2.
Unfortunately for Penn, Fitch came out and utterly dominated the third round. So much so that he got a couple of 10-8's on the judges' scorecards and those two judges both ruled the fight a draw.
Brett Okamoto talks about where the division might be heading in the aftermath of this fight:
There are a few routes the division could go now, in light of Sunday's result.
Should Shields upset St. Pierre at UFC 129 in April, one of either Penn or Fitch could move ahead to fight for the title. If St. Pierre wins and vacates the belt to move to 185 pounds, as he's expected to if he wins, the two could rematch with the belt on the line.
Fitch would like the latter to happen if Shields loses. However, if Shields is the new champ come April 30, Fitch hopes that his track record of 13-1-1 in the UFC would earn him the shot.
Luke Thomas thinks this set back might mean the end of B.J. Penn's MMA career:
I think Penn's future as a fighter is not particularly bright. Penn's talent is, naturally, not a liability, nor is his gameness. His strategy last night was superb and at least on my scorecard, won him the fight. I do not bring up the scoring to skew the perception of what happened. But the reality is clear: Penn did not do enough to merit moving fully into the next chapter of his career as a fighter. He performed well, but that is not enough.
...
I realize I'm burying a surefire UFC hall of famer before a second fight has even taken place, but here's the reality: I favor Fitch heavily in the rematch. And if that happens, the calculus for Penn changes dramatically. While Penn could be in interesting fights at either lightweight or welterweight, he'd be locked out of title contention in either.
...
To be out of title contention after winning titles in two weight classes, already having achieved fame and earned money and facing the nagging voice in his head that beckons him to spend more time with his family creates a Penn who will likely not continue fighting.
I have accepted that B.J. Penn isn't all that interested in intensive training, but he was so dominant while training with Marv Marinovich that I just can't fathom why he wouldn't bring the drill sergeant back to train him for a rematch against Jon Fitch.
The B.J. Penn that thrashed Diego Sanchez for five rounds beats Jon Fitch 9/10 times.
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Being a Penn fan is rough.
If he’s on, he’s one of the scariest fighters ever. It’s a large “if”, though…
@scb0212
The Machiavellian.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Feb 27, 2011 5:40 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Amen brother.
"It is hard to free fools from the chains they revere."
by Shotokanman on Feb 28, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Judging issues aside last night,
Im quite happy to see judges give out more 10- 8 rounds
Rough night. But as a Penn fan, having him draw with the number 2 welterweight in the world does not tell me he is done at all.
"That's racism man, I love to racism bro!"
Exactly
It’s not like he got knocked out by Abe Wagner. Drawing with Fitch is something that, for a lesser WW, might be looked at as a huge performance.
For most fighters
That would be the pinnacle of their career.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
That's just the thing
For most fighters, fighting the champion in 2 weight classes and drawing the #2 guy in the division above you is… unbelievable. For BJ, it’s a massive disappointment. The script is different for him.
"We all think we're the best. That's why we're fighters." - Frankie Edgar
by crazybones on Feb 27, 2011 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Luke Thomas on Penn/Fitch I
“I think this is a squash match.”
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Luke Talks Sooo poorly of great fighters so often lately.
Bj ,Ranji and Roger all have caught the brunt of it lately. I think he hates anyone who has won a bjj world championship. lol
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
BJ could have easily won that fight
and there is a very good chance he will fight for the vacant title.
In what way is he locked out of contention if two weight classes? The only two people to even challenge him in years(before Saturday) are the current champs and both could easily lose there titles soon.
I’m beginning to wonder if he even believes this.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
He did on my useless card.
but i almost always go with my favorites. Mostly because they are my favs because i like their style of fighting.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
I usually pick the best dress fighter
I judge this based on three things: Press conference, walk out and in-ring apparel.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
vale tudo shorts yay or nay?
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 7:14 PM EST up reply actions
They are a must.
GSP and Anderson both wear them. Coincidence?
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
i dont think spider wears them.
his are longer , Shogun does though. so your points stands.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
Marinovich or GTFO
Meet me on Monsta Island. Where the girls look good and the MC's be Wildin'.
Also, follow me on Twitter @DeoWade
by Damon O. on Feb 27, 2011 5:45 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
MARINOVIIIIIIICCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Meet me on Monsta Island. Where the girls look good and the MC's be Wildin'.
Also, follow me on Twitter @DeoWade
The B.J. Penn that thrashed Diego Sanchez for five rounds beats Jon Fitch 9/10 times.
Really? 9 times out of 10???
Pretty ridiculous assertion and one of those brilliant, unfathomable ideas that BJ manages to generate in his fans.
by marcopolio on Feb 27, 2011 5:48 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
YOU'RE RIDICULOUS!!!!!
how bout that? lol
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah that point kinda ruined the article for me
It’s pure speculation and adds nothing of value
"When I beat Wanderlei I’m a take his belt, pull his pants down and spank him for being so ugly" - Quinton Jackson
by Hitmonchan on Feb 27, 2011 7:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed. Sounds like fanboy talk; ruins the article.
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
by andrew861 on Feb 27, 2011 8:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
TRUTH
The rest... is virtually identical
by randy maverick on Feb 28, 2011 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
Marinovich made BJ a freak
Seemed like BJ did all the right things except work on his conditioning for the fight. The notable things he did right was bring in Matt Hughes, Mike Pierce, and Pat Healy to work his wrestling; along with taking time to work with Mayweather Sr. on his boxing. Had he brought in the Super Marinovich Bros., BJ would’ve had the endurance to put in a better performance in the third round.
The B.J. Penn that thrashed Diego Sanchez for five rounds beats Jon Fitch 9/10 times.
What ever your smoking I want some, in a 5 round fight Fitch wins 1000/1000 times.
by MaccaC on Feb 27, 2011 6:09 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I am sure that B.J. still trains with Marinovich or at least there were videos shown during the last couple of “Countdown” shows. I am not sure he trained with them in particular for this fight, but they still keep contract.
B.J. will be back, no doubt in my mind. He got extremely frustrated, that he got soul-crushed in the last round and this is what triggered the retirement rumors. When he re-valuates everything he will realize he thought a really solid two rounds against the #2 WW of all time. You may say he is overrated, but he brings it every time.
#2 WW of all time
Siiiiike.
BJJ > Sambo
by lowellthehammer on Feb 27, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'd say #3...
Hughes is definitely number 2.
Fitch's only fan. It's lonely, being me.
by zakkree on Feb 27, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i don't think
That BJ is near the end because of any performance issue. The fight was a draw and easily could have been a win for BJ. However, I truly question his hunger and desire. I guess he has done a lot in his career and it may be hard for him to get motivated. I have the feeling that had he won last night and then gotten a 3rd fight with GSP, that probably would have been it for him. Now, i don’t know. Does he get the fire back, or is he just mentally done?
He claims he still has the fire
He just doesn’t want to train everyday.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
by TheFilt on Feb 27, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
...
Is the BJ Penn that “thrashed diego sanchez for five rounds” really any different than the one we saw last night? or is Fitch just a far superior fighter to Diego?
by moreofmyself on Feb 27, 2011 6:11 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
No different. The BJ that thrashed Diego was on the front foot the whole fight and dictating the pace; he wasn’t grappling and fighting for position and being put through a war (in terms of positional dominance). Fitch put the work in in rounds 1 & 2 and reaped the benefit in rd 3.
Still, the BJ cardio / Marinovich thing has a ton of legs yet……
Same as the Frankie Edgar fight – that one was a gameplanning issue – does the BJ Penn that trained with Matt Hughes and had a gameplan for Fitch beat Edgar 9 times out of 10?
Micheal Jordan had Phil Jackson… Ali had Angelo Dundee… Pacman has Freddie Roach…
BJ has troy mandaloniz.
by mmalogic on Feb 27, 2011 6:15 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
lol
why do i feel troy shouldnt be on that list with those other guys.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
I'd rather see...
… both of these guys seeded in a welterweight grand prix, with brackets set up for a potential rematch in the finals. That would be very interesting.
Seriously, I think BJ takes just about anybody else in the division after GSP moves up. Fitch (and possibly shields) are the only two I can see beating him via Fitching/Shieldsing (aka dry hump).
I’d love to see BJ vs. Alves, that would be an exciting stylistic matchup.
Shields has a history of finishing fights. He has had 3 decisions out of his last 11 fights. That is not too bad. Especially since he won all of them. Shields is a warrior and a more worthy opponent for GSP. Mark my words, this is not going to be a cake walk for GSP. Shields does not have quit in him, his wrestling is incredible and so are his submissions. GSP has a big edge in striking though. May be another jab fest. I hope not. I kinda want GSP to lose this one. Say what you will but I don’t want to see A. Silva vs. GSP. The UFC is trading in two legends for one legend in doing this. I don’t understand the point. Why not have GSP and Silva move up?
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
I agree but don't.
I would love to see A. Silva move to Light Heavy & GSP to Middleweight, what a shot in the arm that would be for both divisions (not that Light Heavy really needs it at the moment, but it sure would be cool to see anyway).
I don’t agree with the “sacrificing two legends for one legend” line of thinking. While it will suck to see one of them lose, I think the opportunity cost of not making the fight is far worse – having the two best P4P fighters face off is a once in a decade type thing that can’t be passed up!!
by Jarome_Turner on Feb 27, 2011 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
this is the saddest thing i have ever read.
Legalize MMA in New York.
Legalize marijuana nationwide.
by bcpjkell on Feb 27, 2011 6:35 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
LOL, if I were Dana White I would treat this draw as a win for BJ and a loss for Fitch and move on. Not many are clamoring for more of that fight (is there?)
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
YOU ARE
out of your mind, sir.
The rest... is virtually identical
by randy maverick on Feb 28, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know where Penn goes from here
He’s never been in a position where he was so firmly displaced from the “best” category. At least with Edgar he lost to the champion. BJ has never lost to a #2 guy before (except GSP, but he convinced himself he won that fight). I’m thinking he might retire, but it’s hard to tell with BJ.
"We all think we're the best. That's why we're fighters." - Frankie Edgar
I don't get it.
He just fought to a draw with the second best (soon to be best when GSP moves up) welterweight in the world.
That means he’s on par with the second best (soon to be best when GSP moves up) welterweight in the world.
How is he removed from the “best” category?
by Jarome_Turner on Feb 27, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah BJ has no worries. Even if he is not as you say “the best” category… He is a HUGE draw and will be in the UFC about as long as he can hold up. A tie with Fitch is not exactly a black mark. I would say it is the opposite. He proved he can face a great grappler and hold his own. I just don’t see a point in a rematch. I would rather see BJ matched up with someone more exciting. If BJ is going to retire soon, lets see some fireworks! How about Koscheck? That would be awesome
Werdum beat Fedor, Dos Santos beat Werdum, Joaquim Ferreira beat Dos Santos. Therefore Ferreira is WAAAAY better than Fedor. Keep MMA math alive!
When he lost his belt, he lost to a #2, no?
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Nah, he lost to a #7.
BJJ > Sambo
by lowellthehammer on Feb 27, 2011 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"B.J. Penn isn't all that interested in intensive training,...
…but he was so dominant while training with Marv Marinovich that I just can’t fathom why he wouldn’t bring the drill sergeant back to train him for a rematch against Jon Fitch. "
BJ’s lack of wanting to properly prepare for a fight is so disapointing!
BJ Penn talking about wanting to use his ground game more has me inspired a bit. He just drew with the #2 welterweight in the world. As long as he doesn’t fight him again I think he will be just fine (I’d pick Fitch to take the rematch)
I think if he used his grappling more against Edgar things might have went better..The one time he tried to take Edgar down he got him down. He took Fitch down twice. Mixing up his game with strikes and takedowns could do wonders for him.
I don’t get why BJs difference in performance always gets explained by his physical and mental condition and not the most striking difference: his opponents. Diego Sanchez is leagues below John Fitch and that is why Penn dominated him and barely got a draw at 127.
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
"Diego Sanchez is leagues below John Fitch "
the guy he had a split decision with?
If i was leagues above some one I would hope that I would be able to clown them…. not barely escape with a win.
Diego is on of the best in the world. So is Fitch. So is BJ.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
I could not believe Penn lost back control TWICE.
What the fuck was that about.
BJJ > Sambo
by lowellthehammer on Feb 27, 2011 7:22 PM EST reply actions
Fitch being a good grappler?
To save me some time on 25% of all threads, here's the universal answer to the Fedor-debate: Fedor is the most accomplished MMA fighter ever. That is a fact. If he still is the best fighter at this point in time is up for debate.
Fitch is a good grappler.
Penn is a phenomenal grappler and is known in particular for his excellent back control. Fitch is good and all but Penn should not have lost that position, much less twice.
BJJ > Sambo
by lowellthehammer on Feb 27, 2011 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Fitch’s ability to defend against Penn’s back control was impressive. I thought for sure when Penn first tried for the RNC, he’d get him.
Yeah, Fitch's ability to nullify pretty much all grappling based offense is a modern marvel.
Now if he would just work on his damn offense…
BJJ > Sambo
by lowellthehammer on Feb 27, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
Penn was a phenomenal grappler at one point, perhaps 10 years ago; I highly doubt he trains, and in fact know more or less that he does not train, with anywhere near the focus he did when he won a mundial; I doubt he’s even top 10 at LW in terms of pure BJJ. This is to say I’d predict he’d get bounced early at the ADCCs or the mundials if he competed, unless he rededicated himself to BJJ.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 27, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying he's still at that high a level, but he's a better grappler than Fitch IMO.
BJJ > Sambo
by lowellthehammer on Feb 27, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
No argument there. He clearly is a better grappler than Fitch.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 27, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
Um...
…did you guys see the fight last night?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Editor, HeadKickLegend.com
Contributor for CagesideSeats.com and Bloody Elbow Radio
Still Subo at Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Feb 28, 2011 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
I heard rolling Bj is like rolling with a octopuss in quicksand.
I dont think what you are saying is accurate.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
i wish i could blame auto correct for that comment.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
I could be wrong; however for about 10 years, Penn hasn’t trained (and doesn’t have appropriate training partners in Hawaii to train) his BJJ seriously. 10 years of only so-so training will leave you way, way behind other grapplers who are regularly training with the best and eat, sleep and breathe BJJ. I think he would quickly get bounced at 77 kg and I think the cut to get 66 kg would be too much for him. At 77 he’d be up against Garcia (who would crush Penn), Popovich (who would crush him) and a bunch of other guys who would likely beat him. I even think Askren (who competed at 77 kg) would grind him down and beat him at this point given Penn’s cardio problems.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 27, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
WHOA!!!!! Bj would handle Askren.
losing to Popovich and Marcelo doesnt mean you arent world class. Hell ,Marcelo and Popovich lose to Marcelo and Popovich.
I would bet a large some of money that Bj places in this years adcc if he fought. Winning ?? I would bet a much much smaller amount on that.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
What weight do you see him qualifying at? 77 kg would be tough IMO since he’d have to get by Askren. Look what Weidman did to Galvao, who accomplished way more in BJJ than BJ ever did. That is to say look what a wrestler with a big gas tank and an affinity and talent for BJJ did to a clearly superior grappler (for now at least). Askren can go at it for 20 minutes no problem. BJJ would eventually gas and Askren would get the pass. If BJ decided to stand with Askren, he’d get taken down immediately. Btw, I respect your opinion and realize this is very, very theoretical since I haven’t seen Penn in a grappling match in a long, long time. For some reason, I like giving penn and his fans a hard time.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 27, 2011 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
yeah I dont think askren is an that big of a deal at this point. Maybe someday.
Bj would clearly have to spend alot of time working strictly on his bjj . Maybe go and train with Renzo and Roger out in New York? So i guess we both agree that he would have to rededicate himself to his bjj.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 8:46 PM EST up reply actions
I got on Askren’s nuts early and I’m going to stay on them so that I can enjoy the “ultimate” satisfaction of one day saying that I called Askren as a big shot fairly early in his career.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 27, 2011 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
Brilliance is often only a flash in the pan. BJ isn’t built to endure, whether it’s in fights or in his dedication. It’s just the kind of guy he is. He could be so, so good if he approached things like GSP, but he doesn’t. He’s the ultimate “what if” fighter to me.
"We all think we're the best. That's why we're fighters." - Frankie Edgar
i was kinda amazed by that as well.
i was wondering why he didnt break him down. Flatten his hips to the mat with that body triangle.
Fitch is a gamer though.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
I get the feeling he trained almost exclusively on getting Fitch to the mat.
He figured once you get the wrestler on his back it’s all downhill from there. Unfortunately for him (and me) getting Fitch down wasn’t the endgame like it was with Hughes because Fitch is more comfortable off of his back.
BJJ > Sambo
by lowellthehammer on Feb 27, 2011 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
bj didnt punch him hard as shit in the face first.
i think had a little something to do with it .
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Calling Fitch simply a "wrestler" is like calling GSP a "Kyokoshin karateka", BJ "jujitsu player", and Silva " a muay thai fighter".
While it may be true, it’s a drastic oversimplification at this point. Fitch is far beyond being just a wrestler. He may have that mindset but he’s far surpassed that skill-wise. Not saying that’s your line of thinking but I’m pretty sure that’s how a lot people (perhaps BJ’s team included) see certain fighters and that’s a mistake.
In terms of losing back control here is what everyone forgot
Dave Camirillo taught Jon Fitch well.
by BrothaDarkness on Feb 27, 2011 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
Penn surprised Fitch.
But he won’t surprise him again even if he brings in Marv. Fitch is too experienced, too smart and too good for that. On top of that, if it was a five round title fight? Forget about it.
Penn can obviously beat Fitch
And that’s saying a lot since Fitch is the consensus #2.
As I’ve stated before, Fitch’s wrestling credentials are not that good (for an elite MMA fighter with a wrestling base, that is) although his MMA wrestling isn’t bad. People think his credentials are better than they in fact are because Joe Rogan talk about his being captain of the Purdue wrestling team and being an awesome wrestler, or some such nonsense. By his senior year — his first two years were pretty ugly — Fitch fell into the group of wrestlers who aren’t bad but would likely get majored or worse by all americans. Fitch has fought exactly one good wrestler his entire UFC career (GSP). This is all to say that Fitch’s wrestling is a bit more of an unknown quantity than people make it out to be.
Penn did exactly what I said he should do — land an early take down. Penn’s offensive wrestling is the only aspect of his game that is underrated; his timing is very good and his shot is very quick. If he played basketball, they’d say that Penn has good “first step” quickness. If penn works his ass off, he can beat Fitch in a 3 round fight. He’s extremely unlikely to beat any of the other top WW’s in the UFC however IMO, who all likely have better TDD than Fitch (except maybe for shields) and are for one reason or another more difficult match ups for him.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
Whaaaaaaat.
I’d take BJ over Kos, Alves, and Condit easy. Shields, GSP, and Fitch are the only ones I see that could/should be favored to beat Penn.
BJJ > Sambo
by lowellthehammer on Feb 27, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
true story
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
Kos would absolutely kill BJ. Kos is a much, much better wrestler than Fitch. If Kos wants to get you down, he will take you down and blanket you. That is the easiest fight to call, after GSP-Penn. Penn is unlikely to take Alves down and does not have the stand up to keep up with him. A healthy 193 lb Alves is even better than Fitch at getting out of bad BJJ spots and he keeps as good of a pace if not better than Fitch. Easy fight to call.
Shields’s wrestling has improved markedly over the years to the point where I think it’s better than Fitch’s. Shields is a much better grappler from top position than Fitch and would win every round he got a take down in because he would be unlikely to have trouble passing Penn’s guard. Penn may have had a shot of beating Shields in a grappling contest 10 or even 5 years ago. But all skills suffer from neglect, even Penn’s vaunted BJJ game.
Condit is not a top 5 WW. GSP, Fitch, Alves, Shields and Kos are top 5 at least in terms of talent (if you limit it to the UFC).
While I’m at it, Ben Askren would also smoke Penn — and Fitch for that matter.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 27, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions
You have your opinion, I have mine.
Sure, if Kos wants to take you down he does and I don’t disagree at all with the idea that Kos is a better wrestler than Fitch (I’ve said for some time that if they fought I’d take the lower ranked Kos) – but he doesn’t transition well at all between striking and grappling and unlike Fitch he spends sizable portions of fights on his feet. I’d favor BJ to outstrike him on the feet and, for at least the first two rounds, get up when taken down.
Alves is so inconsistent it’s hard to know what you’re going to get with him in any given fight. I think BJ would take him down and grapple him into oblivion, much like Fitch did.
Askren has potential, but the way he tries to just wade through strikes instead of blocking is going to catch up with him sooner or later. Tough call on that fight, but a Penn TKO is hardly out of the question when you consider how green Askren still is. I do agree he could take Fitch simply because Fitch can’t hit very hard and I doubt he stops Askren’s takedowns.
BJJ > Sambo
by lowellthehammer on Feb 27, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
fair enough
I think you bring up valid points. Just curious what would you handicap penn at against the fighters mentioned in my e-mail? Which means that if Penn were getting worse odds you’d bet on Penn? (e.g., +300, means you think penn is 300 / 300 + 100 percent likely to use — 75% likely to lose; 25% likely to win).
Since I don’t favor Penn against any of the top 5, I say — Penn against
1. Kos – +400
2. Shields – +250
3. Alves – +250
4. GSP – +800
5. Fitch – +200
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 27, 2011 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
I honestly have no idea how to handicap fights by odds.
I’d peg Penn as a favorite against Alves, favorite or even against Kos. Shields, GSP, and Fitch would all be the favorites in those fights IMO.
Ranking by difficulty:
GSP
Shields
Fitch
Kos
Alves
BJJ > Sambo
by lowellthehammer on Feb 27, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
"unlikely to have trouble passing Penn’s guard. "
nobody not wearing vasaline has ever done that in mma and even he had trouble. That is selling bj very short.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
My god, you have an endless supply of excuses for Penn as well as ascribing attributes and accomplishments to him that he’s not only failed to earn, but proved he doesn’t have.
Fitch pounded his face in all of rd 3. A rematch will be even worse for Penn. The Penn that beat Diego is the same one who got tooled by Edgar and smashed by Fitch. At least this version of Penn had a gameplan and tried some takedowns.
by Hardcharger on Feb 27, 2011 10:01 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
To be fair. Bj didnt train with marv for the Edgar fights.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
by RJshock 305 on Feb 27, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
sorry dude. i didnt rub that shit on Gsp. Facts are facts.
" ascribing attributes and accomplishments to him that he’s not only failed to earn, but proved he doesn’t have." like what ?
The Gsp that beat Kos is the same one that almost got his arm broke by Hughes and Begged Matt Serra to quit punching him in the face….. See what i did there?
I dont understand why Gsp fan boys get so upset when some brings up the greasing as helping him pass guard.
“Smashed by Fitch” Fitch has never smashed anyone enough to get a stoppage in his UFC career except the up kick he gave to thiago Alves in 2006. Smashed= hyperbole
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 27, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
What you did there wad make a moronic comparison of GSP from 4-6 years ago. The Penn from Sat night wad in shape and had a gameplan. And he wilted and got his face smashed in rd 3. This was a better Penn than the one who beat Diego a year ago. He’s not the invincible fairy tale fighter his nuthuggers like to claim he is, and Fitch further probed that with this fight which was primarily taking place on the ground.
by Hardcharger on Feb 28, 2011 10:31 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I respect your opinion
but you don’t know who Bj has been training with. He’s had guys like Marcello Garcia in his camp before. Bibiano Fernandes. Leo Viera. Charuto. Robson Moura. etc… he’s training BJJ with gi everyday.
I’d heard Bibiano was there but not Garcia — when was that? If so and it’s been fairly regular I’ll eat my words!
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 27, 2011 8:56 PM EST up reply actions
I think it was a relatively short amount of time. Like a couple of weeks. Needless to say though, he has connections in the grappling world and tries to keep up with the best.
And upon further inspection...
I could be wrong, but I could have sworn I watched a video of the two rolling.
If you find that video, please post. I’d kill to see it.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 27, 2011 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
One good wrestler????
Who qualifies as a good wrestler at WW in your book? GSP and Koscheck? Well, if that’s the entire list, then I agree. But Fitch has fought Pierce, Sanchez, Burkman, Larson, and I don’t know who else — guys who all have a solid wrestling base.
by Pantherhare on Feb 27, 2011 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
Tier 1 — Hendricks (not much MMA intelligence though), Askren, GSP, Kos, Woodley; Tier 2 — Story, Fitch, Ellenberger, Pierce(?), Coy(?); Tier 3 — Sanchez, Larson, etc. WW is loaded with wrestling talent.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 27, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
Also I’d put Penn and Shields in Tier 2; I’d bump Pierce and Coy and maybe Ellenberger to Tier 3.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 27, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
Didn't Fitch win on the other scorecard that wasn't a draw?
but it was enough for the judges to award Penn both rounds 1 and 2.
So much so that he got a couple of 10-8’s on the judges’ scorecards and those two judges both ruled the fight a draw.
If only 2 judges scored Round 3 a 10-8, but all of them gave BJ the first 2 rounds… That would mean the remaining judge scored it 29-28 for BJ…
But I could have sworn Fitch had the other card 29-28. Something’s not adding up here. :/
Fitch's only fan. It's lonely, being me.
I think the first block quote is wrong
I think it was:
2 Judges: 10-9 Penn, 10-9 Penn, 10-8 Fitch
One Judge: 10-9 Penn,10-9 Fitch, 10-9 Fitch
he was so dominant while training with Marv Marinovich that I just can’t fathom why he wouldn’t bring the drill sergeant back to train him for a rematch against Jon Fitch.
I’ve been saying this for months. Leaving the Marinoviches in the first place was terrible, not re-hiring them is unconscionable.
by John Danaher's Hair on Feb 27, 2011 11:00 PM EST reply actions
I used to really respect your opinion, Kid Nate, but...
The B.J. Penn that thrashed Diego Sanchez for five rounds beats Jon Fitch 9/10 times.
Why the fuck does Fitch never get any credit? Do you think he’s so lucky that everyone but GSP fought him in flawed condition?
The Penn that came to fight fight Fitch was far more difficult than the one who tooled Diego. That was a predictable Penn who was simply too skilled at counterstriking for the always-move-forward Sanchez with porous striking defense (that, fortunately for the UFC, makes for entertaining fights). That would have been a cinch for Fitch to deal with. This Penn completely mindfucked Fitch when he showed up with the intent to grapple and use his striking to set up takedowns rather than use takedown defense to keep it standing. I was really impressed with Penn, even though Fitch never got close to being choked out.
The third round didn’t happen because Penn wasn’t training hard enough or gassed. It happened because Fitch did what he and most MMA pundits thought he would do all fight long.
by Mint on Feb 27, 2011 11:19 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
What is all this talk about? Don't give up on BJ, where does BJ have to go from here...yadayadya
He just had a competitive fight with the long time #2 fighter in the WW division. Why does he need to go anywhere anyway? Can’t he just put on some great fights? It’s like if he doesn’t have a definitive direction to go in the division, he should hang it up or something. Weird.
I haven't given up on BJ
but IMO without a revolutionary amount of dedication he’s not gonna hang with the best at 170. I’d rather see him in tip top shape at 155.
BJ shouldn't give up on the LW division
That is where he belongs. He’s so talented that he can compete at 170, but 155 is the proper class for his frame.
I consider myself a softcore fan.
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