Is Strikeforce Really Considering Roger Gracie vs Gegard Mousasi?
by Nate Wilcox on Feb 25, 2011 8:47 AM EST
in Strikeforce Analysis
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Strikeforce takes a fair amount of heat for their booking decisions. But honestly, they do a damn fine job of making the most of a very thin roster. For example, Evangelista "Cybrog" Santos certainly didn't merit a title shot against Nick Diaz, but he sure as hell made for a great fight.
Where Strikeforce is really deficient is their inability to develop talent and build home grown stars. They didn't know what the heck to do with Bobby Lashley, but that didn't prevent them from paying him a fair amount of money to beat Wes Sims and lose to Chad Griggs. They don't seem to know what to do with Shane del Rosario, having only given him three fights in three years under contract.
And now it looks like they're considering rushing Roger Gracie into a fight with Gegard Mousasi. Per MMA Weekly:
The latest fight in talks for the (April 9th) card pits former light heavyweight champion Gegard Mousasi against multiple time grappling champion Roger Gracie.
While no bout agreements have been issued, sources have indicated to MMAWeekly.com that the fighters have at least verbally agreed to the match-up at this point.
That's right. If this report is correct (and I trust MMA Weekly's reporting as a rule), Strikeforce is considering booking the 4-0 Roger Gracie against the 30-3-1 Gegard Mousasi.
Gracie, whose toughest opponent was the 38 year old puffed up middleweight Trevor Prangley, has shown real promise by working hard to develop a rudimentary striking game to compliment his all-universe submission skills. But by no stretch of the imagination is he ready to face Mousasi, the #11 Light Heavyweight in the world in our USAT/SBNation Consensus MMA Rankings.
Mousasi combines top level striking with a solid submission game. He's definitely got the skills to bust up Roger on the feet and quite possibly can survive a couple of minutes on the ground with Gracie.
That Strikeforce is even considering rushing Gracie like this indicates a couple of factors:
- Gracie is pulling down a big paycheck and they can't afford to build him slowly.
According to the California State Athletic Commission, Gracie got $75,000 (with no win bonus) for beating Prangley. That's compared to the $20,000 that Cyborg got to fight for the Strikeforce WW title in the headliner on the card. It's hard for a fighter like Roger Gracie who's got a big name -- in his case both the family name he inherited and his hard-earned reputation as the best competition grappler in the history of sport jiu jitsu -- to develop slowly. Their notoriety brings attention and earning opportunities that are hard to turn down.
- Strikeforce doesn't have enough room on their cards to book Mike Kyle vs Gegard Mousasi.
Strikeforce has a large roster given the small number of cards it puts on and the very small number of fights on those cards. Given that they don't book undercard fights with fighters under contract, Strikeforce is limited to 4 or 5 fights per card. They haven't used Mousasi since April of 2010. They need to get him a fight ASAP. But unfortunately neither Mousasi nor Mike Kyle is a name to the casual fans Strikeforce depends on for ratings. - Strikeforce needs Roger Gracie on the card.
Even the most casual MMA fan has been trained to notice the Gracie name. If, as this report seems to indicate, the April 9th card won't include the heavyweight tournament fights but will instead be headlined by Gilbert Melendez vs Tatsuya Kawajiri lightweight title fight, Strikeforce will be desperate to add some names to the card. Given that neither Herschel Walker nor Gina Carano will be fighting, they don't have a lot of options.
Strikeforce in April coverage
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I would love to have Coker's job right now
Make like a tree and fuck off- Ricky
Pot sells better in jail, you know supply and command- Ricky
Breaker, Breaker come in earth. This is Rocket ship 27, some aliens fucked over the carbinator in engine number four, we are going to try to refuckulate it and land on Juniper"
by RTCplayer on Feb 25, 2011 1:50 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
No you wouldn't
With the amount of press and inability to get ahead of a story, Coker has the worst job in the industry.
The new editor of HeadKickLegend.com
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by Matthew Roth on Feb 25, 2011 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
The guy chasing Brock Lesnar with a mop during his workouts has the worst job in the industry.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Time to put some meat in your pain sandwich.
Strikeforce's inability to get ahead of a story
or even meet bad press head on is a nightmare. I’d hate to have Scott Coker’s job right now.
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by Matthew Roth on Feb 25, 2011 3:28 AM EST up reply actions
Given my observation of the press conferences both online and in person, it’s the press’s inability to be deterred from their pre-conceived storylines that’s a bigger problem than Coker’s handling of the press.
People gonna write what they want and there’s only so much Coker can do about it.
InStrength dot com.
by Ben Thapa on Feb 25, 2011 8:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You’re right. Coker and company has been killing it the last few days. Don’t worry, he’ll shut them all up when he ignores these rumors for another week then meekly announces that instead of the Grand Prix in April we get a decent lightweight title fight, a couple of crap fights that won’t get announced until the weigh-ins, and the destruction of the only interesting prospect they’ve got at 205. Stupid media.
by Tag01 on Feb 25, 2011 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
what are they going to do
with Gracie after Mousasi makes quick work of him? seems like a pretty desperate move.
Lame.
Does anyone have any details on Gracie’s contract?
" he didn't want to fight the best of the best on the biggest stage, he knew better. He refused to take any chances; he milked it for all its worth and he got paid and then exposed and now it's over."
he got a reported $75,000
for beating Prangley on the cyborg vs diaz card. that’s compared to $20,000 Cyborg got for being in the headliner. Jacare, the Strikeforce MW champ got $85K.
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damn, that gracie name really has some value
pretty impressive how much hes gettina paid
"I have smoked weed with alot of UFC champions" - Joe Rogan
"Você ta fudido. Se vai levar muita porrada, ta ligado?" - Anderson Silva
That Gracie name is exspensive
I believe reasons number 1 and 2 are spot on. Mousasi needs a fight and Gracie is one hell of a high priced “prospect”
" he didn't want to fight the best of the best on the biggest stage, he knew better. He refused to take any chances; he milked it for all its worth and he got paid and then exposed and now it's over."
weird how his shorts are just plain black though...
is it cause he doesn’t need the cash? Cause I’m sure as hell he can get sponsorships if he wanted to.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 2:24 AM EST up reply actions
I love the plain black shorts.
Kinda refreshing.
by John Danaher's Hair on Feb 25, 2011 2:25 AM EST up reply actions
has he commented on this
or are you speculating?
Conducting an experiment on knocking people out in particular ways would be unethical.
need you ask?
I’m Kid Nate, of course I’m speculating.
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by Nate Wilcox on Feb 25, 2011 2:40 AM EST up reply actions 16 recs
my mistake sir
Conducting an experiment on knocking people out in particular ways would be unethical.
he doesn't even have like a Gracie patch or anything.
Maybe he doesn’t need the cash and this is like a situation where he treats MMA as how other people treat Jiujitsu competition? Just a way to stay active and be competitive?
…and even Renzo had sponsors:
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 2:40 AM EST up reply actions
haven't heard him comment on it...
but I’ve seen pictures of him in BJJ gi’s with tons of sponsor patches on, so it’s not like he’s not aware of the opportunities….plus he looks like a pretty vanilla dude- seems to enjoy plain black shorts, probably only likes missionary sex with women he’s known for awhile, etc.
by John Danaher's Hair on Feb 25, 2011 2:35 AM EST up reply actions
on ADCC he hardly has anything on him also.
Just a gracie logo if I remember correctly.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 2:42 AM EST up reply actions
just him being a gracie .....
I find that last part to be utterly and totally absurd.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 25, 2011 10:46 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Here’s a quote from Robert Drysdale on the subject:
“He’s on a path where he wants to become the next Rickson Gracie. That’s what he works for. That’s why he has no sponsors, he doesn’t talk much, he’s that quiet guy. The "I’m the samurai" kind of thing. He’s a smart kid and I think he’s going to be the next Rickson. He’s incredible.”
http://thefightworkspodcast.com/2008/05/16/robert-drysdale-roger-gracie/
Overestimate Gegard you do…
beating up cans in japan doesnt mean anythin except a #11 ranking in a fictional universe. Zaromskis top 10 ranking didnt help him in the cage and neither will gegards.
Mousasi is the favorite but his takedown defense sucks which makes him and his inflated ranking the best style and fight for Gracie than all the other 2 or 3 LHW’s SF has.
Brocks #1 #2 ranking mean as much to me as Mousassi's #11 compared to roger being in the twenties.
Logic is right, Roger will eat Mousassi alive.
I will Take sig Bets now. The only LHWs that stand a chance against Roger are in the ufc.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 25, 2011 10:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I toyed with that line of thinking
but all Gegard has to do is not get tapped out the first time they go to the ground, easier said than done I admit.
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still a better stylistic fight for gracie than Babalu or Hendo or Calvacante or King Mo. And his inflated ranking makes it even more appealing than any of those guys… even a mike kyle.
Can crushers from Japan are always overvalued making a fight against them a better investment.
you're right about Mousasi being a better option than someone with really good wrestling
although Prangley’s got much better wrestling than Mousasi and Roger made pretty short work of him.
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Of course, it wasn’t like Gegard talked about letting Mo take down and work off his back against him. Oh wait, he did. I can’t believe people want to use that fight to point out the weaknesses of those two when it unfolded exactly as the predicted it would. It’s one of the best examples of high MMA IQs out there.
As for Gracie/Mousasi: I’m not giving a fighter with poor standup and who hasn’t shown an ability to shoot (he dragged Prangley down from the clinch) much of a chance against a fighter with excellent 8-point striker and superb awareness of range. My bet would be that when Gracie tries to close the distance to make something happen he gets put to sleep.
Dennis Kang was taking him down at will… Oh wait, that must of been some high MMA IQ right there. Jacare took him down within seconds… oh wait, that must of also been some high mma iq to be on your back against Souza.
Gracie may very well be ko’ed… but stylistically a can crusher like gegard who has dispayed shitty takedown defense is the best fight for him since SF doesnt have any depth in their divisions.
Correct me if I’m wrong but Mousasi won both those fights against Kang and Jacare.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 3:00 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
And you are talking about fights from 2008 that the man won. Learning TDD isn’t calculus. A fighter of Mousasi’s abilities can learn TDD over the course of years.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 3:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Im talking about what he’s displayed. He could very well have learned some TDD. He even admitted his TDD sucks. I guess some people want to fool themselves and call it “mma iq”… whatever.
My point is if you’re Gracie you’re gonna take the guy who thus far hasnt displayed any TDD. You’re also going to take the guy with the inflated rank based off of beating cans in japan.
The division is as shallow as a kiddy pool so when life gives you lemons Gracie picked the one most likely to make the best lemonade.
The division is as shallow as a kiddy pool so when life gives you lemons Gracie picked the one most likely to make the best lemonade.
I sort of agree… I still think it’s completely wrong to give Gracie such an experienced and talented opponent with only 4 fights under his belt, but at least with Gegard, he does have a bit of a chance.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 3:15 AM EST up reply actions
I agree with you and Kid Nates point that ideally he should be fighting guys with less experience but he’s got lemons in SF and Gegard is his best option for lemonade.
From SF’s point of view, they’re not going to just bring him along at a comfortable pace so he can demand more money once his contract is up.
Gegard is going NOWHERE in SFs LHW division...
Not with Henderson or Mo in there…
And to call his standup better than good is crazy…
Against King Mo, Gegard was getting lit up in every exchange…partly because he was worried about the takedowns…
It would be smart to shoot Gracie to the top of SFs LHW division using Gegard…
Gegard will not find success in MMA in the US…
He is really small too.
Nick Diaz does not like wrestlers just like Rock doesnt like Paper!
Yeah
Kinda dumbfounded. Gegard’s standup only qualifies as good and nothing more? You can fault the man’s TDD if you want, but…
"I am going to punch faces." --Wanderlei Silva
War Miller Bros.
Since his fight against Mo he hasn’t had his TDD tested. But he has trained with the likes of GSP. I would think he might have improved.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 3:16 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
lol… Yeah and other fighters who have exceptional takedowns. Like Fedor. A week with GSP has value. So does training with Freddie Roach. He is working with the best. He just won a K-1 fight no one favored he would win. Mousasi is committed to being a well rounded MMA artist.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 3:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
K1 is probably hurting Gegard...
It is a different ball game, once you get to the high levels…
Just about anyone can eat a punch or two from Gegard to get close enough to take him down.
Just about every prospect that made a name for themselves in Japan, with the exception of a few smaller guys, fizzled out real quickly.
Nick Diaz does not like wrestlers just like Rock doesnt like Paper!
For the record
He’s only had two K1 fights in three years.
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i like mousassi, but mousassi was about to get mauled when he up kicked Jacare.
I would like to see that rematch.
Roger doesn’t dive into anything on the ground, unlike Jacare who dove at Mousassi and got kicked. Roger is already 3 steps ahead of who ever he is fighting on the ground. There is no need for him to rush.
Roger will take him down, pass his guard , mount him , and then finish him. He will make it look so easy people that don’t know better will question if Mousassi has ever taken a bjj class. Then someone will write a silly article about Roger not being that good.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 25, 2011 11:03 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
We get it.
Every single BJJ practitioner will beat Mousasi. You’re not biased at all.
Check out Chester, an Xbox game being developed by a friend.
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“Japanese can crusher”? IYou test that out around the office to see if it had an impact?
The best bet, in my uninformed opinion, for Gracie would be someone like Kyle, Sokodjou, or Babalu: a fighter who may have power but without the technique to keep Gracie from putting his hands on him or a fighter who will instinctively enter his world. A fighter like Mousasi, who has supreme standup and could easily perform an Andre Ward backpedal against a fighter like Roger (have you ever seen Gracie shoot even remotely close to what Jacare does?) could spell a couple of rounds of Roger getting picked apart from a distance.
I could almost have a discussion with you if you weren’t always looking to disparage those that worked for the " other side".
His “supreme” stand up looked like shit against a novice like King MO. Stand up in MMA is very different when there’s a threat of a takedown.
Kyle, Babalu all represent different problems for Gracie’s style. But when there;s a guy who has displayed no takedown defense and who has an inflated rank based on beating cans the risk/reward ratio is best against gegard.
wrong
Mousasi very nearly KO’d Mo in the first round and beat the crap out of him in the 2nd. Mousasi’s big failure in that fight was one of conditioning, not technique. Had he had the gas he had in the first two rounds for 3 or even 4 rounds he would have finished Mo.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
agreed,
but it had also to do with technique, not with striking as logic said, but his Takedown D still really sucks.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 3:27 AM EST up reply actions
I recall Gegard getting owned standing up...
Because K1 = Not shit whey you are in the cage with a decent wrestler…especially a wrestler who can put together a decent combination…
If it werent for Mos shitty cardio…he would have KOed Gegard standing…
Nick Diaz does not like wrestlers just like Rock doesnt like Paper!
He beat MO up from his back. Mo outstruck him on the feat in the later rounds. If Mo had more gas Gegard would have been on his back more in the later rounds. They were both gassed… It’s meaningless.
If Gegard fought a guy like Thiago Silva he’d get taken down and prison raped.
I have yet to witness his “supreme” stand up in a real MMA fight.
you're bragging on Thiago Silva right now? Really?
how bout we wait for the test results to come back first.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
PEDs arent going to make someone superman...
Nick Diaz does not like wrestlers just like Rock doesnt like Paper!
i still though he won that fight.
He landed the more significant strikes and out landed mo in every round. Mo had position and did nothing with it.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 25, 2011 11:09 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
*thought
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 25, 2011 11:09 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
If you thought Gegard won that fight...you should not comment about any decision ever!
Nick Diaz does not like wrestlers just like Rock doesnt like Paper!
Which fighters he beat were “cans”?
by Jonathan Snowden on Feb 25, 2011 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
Well, someone took the bait. Foolish man. You’re like one of those guys on Star Trek who goes out onto a strange world with Kirk and Bones. Anonymous and DOOMED.
by Jonathan Snowden on Feb 25, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Bummer. I got a pop up that calling a fighter a “can” is fighter bashing. Alright. So what’s the cut off for getting the slap on the wrist popup, exactly? What if someone is obviously being booked to lose? Can you call them an “opponent?” The guys I listed were all obviously way out of there league and got destroyed, but if it’s a matter of not using the “C” word I can oblige.
Mark Kerr?? vs Mo...
Not a can, but his career was waaaay behind him.
Nick Diaz does not like wrestlers just like Rock doesnt like Paper!
Soku is a dangerous matchup for Gracie stylistically.
He’s hard to takedown, and if Gracie can’t weather the early storm, he’s getting stomped (Gracie would probably still win though). Babalu would have been the best match up in my opinion.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 3:20 AM EST up reply actions
I think Soku actually works in Gracie’s favor. He throws with power but it’s looping and he likes to close the distance when does. Gracie’s going to be looking to clinch him, tangle him, get it to the ground and either sub him or make him expend a ton of energy defending against the sub.
Soku is hard to take down by whooo...
Soku should not be in the top 40 for lhw…
DIdnt he lose to Houston Alexander?
Nick Diaz does not like wrestlers just like Rock doesnt like Paper!
Gracie murders Soko. Soko is strong and has a great Judo base….that he never uses. He’ll come out swinging and end up getting tripped to the floor and tied into knots.
the thing about that judo base
is it makes him want to clinch which is a dumb and deadly place to go against Roger.
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true story
Roger and Jacare have the best judo in strikeforce.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 25, 2011 11:14 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Gegard just tooled Kyotaro in a kickboxing match...
Gracie’s not ready to stand with that level of fighter.
by John Danaher's Hair on Feb 25, 2011 2:30 AM EST up reply actions
I just watched that fight on youtube,
and dennis kang took him down once, and 2 minutes later kang was in a triangle choke.
I know you are talking about TDD, but realistically you have to think the amount of effort put into TDD in a fight would be much higher against a guy like Gracie who mousasi would KNOW WANTS to take it to the ground, opposed to Kang who mousasi must of felt way more comfortable if/when the fight had of gone to the ground. So mousasi not worrying about solid TDD doesn’t necessarily mean he has bad TDD. does that make sense? it did in my head.
anyway tl:dr – Fighters defense strategy changes depending on the opponent
by New_User on Feb 25, 2011 6:39 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Mousasi had bad takedown defense. Since the Mo fight he has devoted training to takedown defense. Mousasi is an incredibly gifted fighter. I’m sure in the months since losing to Mo he will be more than up for the task.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 2:37 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
yeah right he devoted himself to training wrestling…. in Holland.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
All I hear about is Reem has great TDD. Did he learn that in Holland?
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 3:09 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
So you base your opinions on what you hear about fighters, not actual fights?
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
How about training with GSP? Do you think he might have learned a few things from the best TDD artist in the world? Nah, couldn’t be. That would go against the narrative.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 3:19 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
They trained together for like two days and as a matter of fact it was before King Mo fight. Isn’t it againt yout narrative?
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
They trained together in 2010. It fits with my narrative.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 3:27 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
but before the King Mo fight. Looks like it didn’t help much.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
GSP has the best Take Down Defense??
He does have explosive takedowns…but we will give that to his genetics, Canadian supplements, and his wrestling coaches…
Nick Diaz does not like wrestlers just like Rock doesnt like Paper!
He also trained with Hendo in the fall. That also fits my narrative.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 3:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
now it at least makes sense.
Still Cyrille Diabate trains with Dan Henderson on a daily basis any it didn’t help him against Gustafsson. Untill proven in the fight, Gegard’s TDD should be considered his weakness.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
It’s a weakness that he has been working with everyone of high caliber he could find to improve. He has excellent stand up and submission skills. We will see what he has learned but as young and gifted as he is I would be wary of this weakness.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 3:38 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
“with everyone of high caliber e could find to improve” you mean spending a week with Henderson?
I like how delusional you are.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
Get a clue, he spent most of the fall training with Team Quest and Freddie Roach then he joined Fedor’s camp in January. How uninformed you are yet you throw around words like delusional to other posters when you haven’t a clue what you speak of.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 8:02 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
lol Gegard didn’t spend a single day with Fedor in January. It was well publicized that Fedor’s coaches were mad at him that he didn’t come to help in the training camp for Silva.
He also didn’t spend “the fall” in Team Quest. He was there for exactly two weeks doing Sherdog fighter exchange
Sorry mate, it’s you, who have no clue.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
Of course it is and training with Mark Munoz won’t automatically make him a great defensive wrestler. It takes more than a quality training partner to upgrade your skills and some fighters will never learn certain skills. I’m not saying it’s Gegard’s case, but it could be.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
I also think that for several fighters stopping the takedown isn’t a priority, they look to go offensive when the hit their back. Anderson Silva, the Diaz bros.,Kendall Grove, etc. are all examples with various degrees of success. I think Mousasi up to now had fit into that category. I mean, he’s 30-3 and his last loss is to one of the premiere wrestlers in mma. How much should he really change?
You’re mostly right. The whole discussion started with memitim saying that Gegard devoted himself to training wrestling. Which is not true, cause you can’t do it Holland.
If Gegard wants to have successes like Diaz brothers or Grove, sure he doesn’t need to have better TDD. However, he’s not going to beat Jones, Mo, Davis, Bader, Evans with his current skillset.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
Once again showing how misinformed you are. TDD can be taught from a variety of disciplines, not just wrestling.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 8:04 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
right, that’s why 99% of elite fighters learn it from wrestlers
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
This comment thread sucks you guys need to hug it out
by Papercut Elbow on Feb 25, 2011 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Since the Mo fight he has devoted training to takedown defense.
Call me crazy, but I’m pretty sure he didn’t train a lick of takedown defense while preparing for Kyotaro.
He didn’t know he was fighting Kyotoro till weeks before. Till that was set he was fighting everyone from JLB in a MMA match or even Ishii.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 8:06 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Mousasi is top10 for sure, would beat guys like Griffin easily imo.
by King Koopa on Feb 25, 2011 7:24 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
His TDD is fine. He was 3 of 12 against the best LHW wrestler in the UFC and SF (Romero is the best in MMA). It really is preposterous that people think otherwise based on this fight. This is a fine fight.
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by The Darkness on Feb 25, 2011 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
Since when did Roger Gracie have a blast double? Most idiots watching this sport know by now that being a grappler doesn’t mean you have good takedowns. Comparing Roger to Kang – Denis Kang was a amateur wrestler – no shock that he has a solid shot. He wore wrestling shoes for pretty much all of his first 20-25 fights. Jesus.
by VirtualBalboa on Feb 25, 2011 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
and then some idiots dont get who good Roger Gracie is at every facet of Bjj
Including takedowns. Ask trevor prangley 2 time all American D1 wrestler or the countless others he tossed in grappling competitions.
No need to name came ;-)
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 25, 2011 11:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
call
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 25, 2011 11:35 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
and *how
I hate my key board
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 25, 2011 11:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Roger is very good at the technique of BJJ. He is not going to shoot from 8 feet out and get deep in or drive Mousasi to the cage.
by VirtualBalboa on Feb 25, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
and then some idiots don't get that they're 100% biased in every sense when it comes to a martial art
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I say
Put Gracie up against Sobral. If he wins he can fight Gegard……Better than putting him up against Gegard now.
Babalu needs a tune up fight too.
I say let him go outside the promotion and pick up a win or two.
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I personally think OSP is a bit too well rounded
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
by Chris Groves on Feb 25, 2011 2:41 AM EST up reply actions
is he a more apt matchup than Mousasi?
by John Danaher's Hair on Feb 25, 2011 2:42 AM EST up reply actions
I think so
The more I think about it, the more I’m warming up to the idea. Promotionally at least.
OSP made a name for himself with 3 fights, and 3 televised victories in like a 8 week time span. Gracie has his name, grappling fame, and the extra perk of being undefeated.
Either one of these guys scoring a win over the other would be in a good spot to further promote into the upper leagues.
I’m really warming up to thise idea.
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
by Chris Groves on Feb 25, 2011 2:45 AM EST up reply actions
nah, they should build them both up
have 2 rising stars, instead of eliminating one immediately. Just match them up against gatekeepers.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 2:51 AM EST up reply actions
I'd be up for that too.
This is the kind of fight that could be a much bigger deal if these guys add 2-3 more wins each.
At this point, it would be kinda like if instead of Hamill and Jardine, Jones and Bader fought eachother.
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
by Chris Groves on Feb 25, 2011 2:55 AM EST up reply actions
SF can only wish those 2 would be established names like Jones and Bader
before having them fight… They lack depth so I’m guessing they’re having a hard time and they’re having to match those 2 prospects up even if it’s too early.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 3:09 AM EST up reply actions
I was just giving an example
I don’t think any of StrikeForce’s light heavies can match the type of star power that the UFC 205 division is filled with.
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
by Chris Groves on Feb 25, 2011 4:59 AM EST up reply actions
Call me crazy, but Gracie vs Sobral IMO looks more appropriate than Mousasi vs Gracie at this point.
Sobral has been brutally KO’d in two of his last three fights, but showed solid striking against Lawler. His main asset is his ground game, and though he is no at the level of Roger, he can make for a really competitive fight, and neither of them is gonna smash the other on the feet.
Mousasi vs Gracie can play two ways. Or Mousasi keeps it standing and knocks Gracie out into a possible retirement (all we know how some Gracies react to beatdowns), or Roger gets it to the ground soon and ends up with another submission win. I don’t see it being a really competitive fight, and in either case the loser ends up looking bad.
by Carlos Estrada-Ibars Martínez on Feb 25, 2011 6:39 AM EST up reply actions
Seems like Roger is getting thrown to the metaphorical wolves
But then again, a lot of people thought that about King Mo when he was matched up wih Mousasi.
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
I have such conflicted emotions with Strikeforce right now. On one hand they are talking about putting on a card with Diaz vs Daley, Melendez vs Kawajirii, and Mousasi vs Gracie (and if the Aoki vs Thomson rumors are true I’ll really mark out). I don’t care what you say that’s a kickass card. But then on the other hand they’re giving us that card at the last minute without fighters getting the proper time to prep (nevermind the mismatch in Gracie/Mousasi) or time to promote instead of the promised Grand Prix. Fuck.
Strikeforce seems to be forgetting one of the cardinal rules of being a stud: sure give them what they want and give it good, but also act like you know what you’re doing..
Strikeforce is good....
but it could be great, and they just keep missing….
by John Danaher's Hair on Feb 25, 2011 2:28 AM EST up reply actions
I’m starting to seriously think that Coker and Co. are intentionally letting these stories get out of hand. I mean look at the attention they’re getting way above and beyond what the mma blogs would normally give them with a UFC event this weekend.
I've seen you float this theory out before...
and I respectfully disagree. The April 9th show with the HW GP fights would’ve generated tons of positive buzz, and they’re trading that for getting HAMMERED. Even if they go forward with the HW GP fights, it will have been sullied a bit…certainly not as positive as it would’ve been without any of this current narrative.
by John Danaher's Hair on Feb 25, 2011 2:38 AM EST up reply actions
It’s sullied till we see Reem and Werdum at a weigh in. After that it will be a distant memory.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 2:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
^ditto
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
by Chris Groves on Feb 25, 2011 2:46 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not saying that the April 9th card was intentionally derailed by them to get press, I’m saying they’ve learned not to say anything. They’re going to get hammered anyway so why not milk it by not making a statement and dominate the blogs and forums for a few days. Sure it might not be a positive story but it’s the only way to guarantee people are talking about you in a UFC world.
it’s not without precedent, I’ve worked with people that have taken a similar tact.
I think they are delaying it because they want Fedor on it (either back in the tourney or at least a fight on the card).
It seems like they have to “co-promote” the entire tournament with M1 whether Fedor is in the tourney or not so financially it would make more sense to have him on the card instead of placing him on another card you have to also co-promote. This also explains why Japan was so dire because the gate #’s needed to compensate for the half that M1 collects.
is that true?
that they they have to co-promote the entire tourney with M-1??
by John Danaher's Hair on Feb 25, 2011 2:42 AM EST up reply actions
I dont know for a fact. But it seems so. M1 promoted the entire tournament in russia as an M1 tournament. They also marketed the remaining 1st round of fights which doesnt include fedor so it seems like they negotiated co-promotional rights to the entire tournament in exchange for Fedor being a part of it.
If it’s true that means even with losing Fedor’s management fucked up the tournament.
How did they fuck up the tournament?
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 2:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
I would have said their left was way more 'loaded' then the right
^tongue in cheek comment on the structuring of the tournament brackets.
On the record, I like how they structured it.
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
by Chris Groves on Feb 25, 2011 3:04 AM EST up reply actions
Fedor will be back on the tourney card in the semis against Reem. M-1 naturally follows.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 2:52 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Spoken like a man who knows what he's talking about
one of the cardinal rules of being a stud: sure give them what they want and give it good, but also act like you know what you’re doing
That’s some great advice for any endeavor in life. Its gotten me far in many situations.
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They don’t seem to know what to do with Shane del Rosario, having only given him three fights in three years under contract.
Not only doesn’t he fight as often, but I think they’re failing badly at letting the people know who he is… hell they are based in San Jose, market the fact that Del Rosario is Filipino, and a ton of dudes in that area (and in the Philippines) would know who he is and be interested in fighting…
sadly, I think he’s going to be rushed as well… He needs more cage time, but I fear that he’s going to be thrown on the deep end by facing top guys from the HWGP, without helping him develop, and without helping people know who he is.
They’ve talked about putting him against Griggs on the semi- finals card. That seems like the perfect matchup to make at this point.
I was thinking that myself
Seeing as both victors emerged from the first two quarter final bouts fairly unscathed, why not add some more credibility to the alternates by matching them up?
right now, Valentijn, Griggs, and Rosario have all won the metaphorical ‘opening round’ of the imaginary ‘alternate’ tournament. Put two of them against each other, and someone like Cormier against the other. If all of the quaters go off fine, put the winner of those two matches against one another to determine a winner of the ‘challengers grand prix’
At the same time, have people who have lost in the tournament fight one another, Fedor vs Werdum, Arlovski rematching Rogers maybe, winner of those matches fight eachother, the two guys who lost in the semis fight, then you match up all of those winners.
So that way, you can either have the winner of the ‘tournament losers’ GP be the next contender if Overeem happens to win the tournament. The ‘alternate GP’ winner would also be one big win or so away from a title shot.
^StrikeForce, this is how you create divisional hierarchy.
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
by Chris Groves on Feb 25, 2011 3:02 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This has been my line of thinking. Put Fedor against the loser of Werdum/Overeem and do the same with the other bracket and crown a consolation champ. Next pair Griggs against Del Rosario and V. Overeem vs Cormier followed by the winners against each other and you got the Challengers (after the cards) champ. Put the consolation against the 2nd place GP and the Challengers against 3rd place and you have your next two easily legitimate top 10 contenders.
by John Nash on Feb 25, 2011 3:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Bingo
CPG
Alistair Overeem - StrikeForce HeavyWeight Champion, K-1 2010 World Grand Prix Champion, DREAM Interim HeavyWeight Champion
by Chris Groves on Feb 25, 2011 4:56 AM EST up reply actions
that would be really fun...
I just think they’ve been missing a huge opportunity by not marketing Del Rosario that much..
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 3:11 AM EST up reply actions
Put Griggs vs Del Rosario and V. Overeem vs Cormier on the semi-finals and the winners against each other on the GP finals and guarantee at least one of your young fighters a lot of exposure and momentum.
if Cormier and Del Rosario win,
from a promotional point of things, they shouldn’t match them up yet IMO. They should do it how the UFC handled Velasquez/DosSantos/Carwin… Put them on separate paths and whoever looks the most impressive would get the title shot first, while the other fights more dudes to make himself look better and get more cage time.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 3:25 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe. The only problem Strikeforce has is they don’t have the luxory of being able to let a future star sit at the end of his contract – the UFC is going to snag him. I was thinking it would be better and easier for them to pair it down to the best up-and-coming fighter.
Otherwise I like your Idea better of building up two young contenders.
obviously if they do it that way,
they should sign them to longer contracts. (which if I remember correctly, Del Rosario has been extended right?)
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 4:24 AM EST up reply actions
Strikeforce should do a Challengers in San Diego with Del Rosario headlining.
Put it at Sports Arena (where WEC had a show and UFC their last Versus card) and get locals like Vera, Munoz, and Schieb to promote it. Would be awesome. Sports Arena isn’t a great venue but it’s certainly functional for lower level cards and 20 minutes or so from the Filipino communities. If they get a Mexican guy training out of
Chula Vista to fight him, or even as a co-main, you’ve got some serious local draw.
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Why would Vera and Munoz promote the show?
When both are under Zuffa contract?
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by Matthew Roth on Feb 25, 2011 3:35 AM EST up reply actions
Get guys who train at Reign and Alliance on it
and those guys will help promote their bros. Rolando Perez and Joe Henle in their respective weight classes would do it. Two guys formerly under Zuffa employ who would like to get back in the spotlight and train under the Alliance and Reign banners (respectively). Neither are on committed contracts right now or are getting televised, and Challengers would be a good next step.
There are angles to get this done, and fighters care way more about their friends/training partners/family than the promotion they have a contract with.
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I completely understand the gym family
But Zuffa wouldn’t take kindly to two of their stars promoting a Strikeforce event. Especially two who don’t have the value to the promotion of a GSP/Couture/Hughes/Lesnar.
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by Matthew Roth on Feb 25, 2011 3:53 AM EST up reply actions
They don't have to be doing a ton of work for it.
A few twitter hits, some word-of-mouth, and Strikeforce doing viral marketing based on their names being in the corners will do enough to make extra cash off the gate. Munoz and Vera could both wear UFC gear on the walkouts like Nate Diaz did to stay in good graces, which doesn’t harm the Strikeforce broadcast at all. I don’t think there would be blowback for the fighters. Especially given Brandon’s totally unblemished record of being a Zuffa loyalite (eye roll).
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no one even knows the guy is Filipino.
haha. Even people here don’t know… and guys here jump on right away once they find out that a Filipino athlete is doing good in international competition.
by Anton Tabuena on Feb 25, 2011 4:26 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t understand pitting Gracie against Mousasi. Why not Sobral? Kyle v Mousasi for # 1 contender has been talked about for months. They should stick to that.
by memitim on Feb 25, 2011 2:30 AM EST via mobile reply actions
What do you guys think about
Gracie vs. OSP?
by John Danaher's Hair on Feb 25, 2011 2:39 AM EST reply actions
This isn't hard Strikeforce, sit down and think for a second...
LHW Match-Ups to Make:
-Mousasi vs. Kyle
-Lawal vs. Monson (When Lawal comes back, nice rebound fight there)
-OSP vs. Babalu (Let’s see where this kid is really at)
-Gracie vs. Bobby Southworth (Bring him back. Market him as a former champ. Have Gracie dismantle him. Gracie is in line for title or winner of OSP/Babalu).
Strikeforce don’t have the guidelines of a UFC. They can bring in other resources if needed. The light heavyweight division needs a few more guys thrown in, that’s why I use Monson and Southworth as showcases for their real legit talent. Those two guys are recognizable names and guys they could promote as serious challenges.
dude, where is mah damn HWGPRD2 fights please?
So…. I want something SF – an explanation. What and why. I’m the fan. If I’m not getting my RD2 fights why? And if its til & kawajiri fighting instead of reem & doom? Then tell me why. And let me know about these new fights. Explain to me why I shouldn’t feel slighted come fight night when i was anticipating “The greatest Heavyweight Tournament of all time in MMA” explain to me (the casual) why I shouldn’t be disappointed. Yes the replacement fights sound great on paper. But not when i was mentally pre psyched for RD2 fights not crushers debut. This has all the makings of a double fuck. If his fight doesn’t WOW and its a semi forgettable decision victory? Ohhhh man. What a waste of $ & opportunity! With something like that? They need to promote him set him up on a behind the scenes etc. Get people excited about him ahead of time. Anything other than the HWGPRD2 Fights will be doomed with what-ifs unless it delivers an epic night of fights it will somehow seem tainted. Blah. Sorry. I’m done with the incoherent babble.
by nahhh mean? on Feb 25, 2011 3:23 AM EST via mobile reply actions
If GP fights are indeed delayed, Strikeforce should book Fedor against Valentijn on the same card with Alistair vs Werdum. Even if Fedor doesn’t re-enter the GP, this will create some interesting storyline for the future fights.
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I guess we'll see
if Mousasi’s takedown defense is terrible or if it was just King Mo’s wrestling that made it look that way.
Mousasi will want to avoid the ground at all costs, hot lava.
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If you can wean yourself off endlessly speculating about the state of MMA
And just get down to the fights, this is a great fight! As a Roger Gracie whitebelt, a small, shot one, I can only say if Roger wants to take this fight then good on him!
I’m a big Mousasi fan too, and while Roger’s standup is improved he offers very little to Mousassi on the feet.
I am not so sure though about Mousasi’s chances of surviving even a few minutes on the ground. From what we have seen Rager’s MMA jiu jitsu is methodical, he reminds me of a python who wraps around an animal and then waits only for opportunities to further tighten and suffocate the poor creature. So perhaps Mousasi’s minutes on the ground could go like that.
That said win or lose I would love for Mousasi to give out some G’n’P, I want to see Roger’s mettle tested :D
Great fight
by jwalker on Feb 25, 2011 6:45 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Given that they don’t book undercard fights with fighters under contract, Strikeforce is limited to 4 or 5 fights per card.
Untrue.
Only if you're nitpicking. Which you are.
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I totally want to see this fight. Mousasi is easily one of the 5 most talented fighters in the division, has decent TDD despite what the great unwashed masses on this site seem to think (going 3 of 12 against the best wrestler in the LHW division in SF or the UFC does not mean you have poor TDD) and is unlikely to be easily submitted even if Gracie manages to wrestle him down. Gracie has shown he has enough athleticism and offensive TD ability to make himself extremely dangerous against anyone.
Since the goal of this article was simply to get 200+ comments, I think it was a success. If it was actually trying to make valid arguments, I missed them.
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Lesnar versus Mir
Brock had less MMA experience and was further removed from his amateur wrestling background when the UFC threw him to Mir. Don’t know why it’s such a bad decision for SF to throw Gracie in the deep end.
strikeforce hopefully with there prelims deal with hdnet will make better prelims that can grow talent
having a deep and ever evolving roster is hard to do when you only show 5 fights
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Gracie has been talking up big names for a long time. He might be 4-0, but his debut was, what, 4 years ago now in Bodog against Waterman? If you’re gonna pay guys like they deserve to be at the top of the card, then they need to fight people who are there. Prangley beat Jardine and thusly was a perfectly serviceable busy fight for the guy. Now give him someone tangible.
You don’t go from Trevor Prangley to Gegard Mousasi. That’s crazy.
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by Derek Suboticki on Feb 25, 2011 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
Nobody will ever follow a similar path to Brock. That is a unique run to begin a combat career (without years of training or a single amateur bout, mind you) that will probably never be duplicated.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Feb 25, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
Gegard is a tougher fight than Mir was at that time.
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This is so dumb. So incredibly dumb
Mouasasi? Are they crazy?
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