UFC 127: Will Jon Fitch Have an Unfair Advantage Against B.J. Penn?
In a UFC title eliminator bout, any advantage, however minuscule, can be the difference between defeat and victory. When a fighter is locked in the Octagon against an opponent as skilled and formidable as Jon Fitch or B.J. Penn they can't afford to give up the tiniest advantage.
Which is why there's been a little bit of buzz on the Interwebs about the fact that Jon Fitch's coaches at the American Kickboxing Academy have extremely close long-term relationships with Fitch's UFC 127 opponent, B.J. Penn.
Fitch's striking coach Javier Mendez, who worked extensively with B.J. Penn on his striking in the early days of Penn's MMA career, knows a great deal about Penn's approach to the game.
But even more than Mendez, AKA grappling coach Dave Camarillo has an extremely close relationship to Penn dating back to when Camarillo was a blue belt under Ralph Gracie and Penn was a white belt. They have since co-authored a book on BJJ and have maintained a friendly relationship.
Fitch talked about these relationships in his final fight diary for UFC 127 at MMA Fighting:
In fact, a lot of my coaches and training partners have had close relationships with B.J. over the years and probably know more about him than anyone else in the game. So, taking all that into account, we couldn't be better prepared right now.
B.J. got started at AKA years ago and a lot of the same guys that watched and trained him then are still around today helping the likes of me. I see that as a little bit of an advantage heading into this fight. My jiu-jitsu instructor, Dave Camarillo, actually got his black belt at the same time as B.J., and Javier Mendez spent a lot of time working on B.J.'s stand-up when he was at the gym. There are a load of guys there who have experience with B.J. and know how he functions. I'm always getting feedback from those people and really appreciate the insight.
Penn has told interviewers that he believes the advantage is actually his since he knows AKA's approach to training from the inside. Fitch claims that the gym has changed their approach dramatically since Penn has trained at the camp.
In the full entry are interviews with Dave Camarillo and Jon Fitch talking about the gym's relationship with Penn and what, if any, advantage Fitch will gain via their intimate understanding of Penn's game.
Here's Dave Camarillo talking to MMA Out Loud about Fitch and Penn:
Here's Fitch talking to Ariel Helwani (topic of Penn and Camarillo comes up at the 6:50 mark):
Penn and Camrillo training together.
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Is it an advantage? Yes
Is it fair? Of course.
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Head Kick Legend
by Neil Manich on Feb 23, 2011 5:01 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
Rec'd.
Probably going to outweigh him by 20-25 lbs as well.
http://mma.ly - all your favorite MMA websites, on one page.
BJ also said.
It’s fine with Fitch is training with them.
Because BJ knows exactly how “those guys train.”
http://mma.ly - all your favorite MMA websites, on one page.
what else would he do? pull out of the fight because jon fitch is doing the mma equivalent of your friend screen hopping in a split screen game?
"That's racism man, I love to racism bro!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Feb 23, 2011 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
Screen watching is my jam
It’s also why i’m horrible at Halo & COD online…
You can read my work over @ http://www.headkicklegend.com/
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Feb 24, 2011 12:33 AM EST up reply actions
Well not an unfair advantage.
BJ left AKA its not their fault that down the road one of AKA’s fighter would eventually meet BJ. If anything this helps both fighters. Jon Fitch now knows what to expect from BJ. BJ will know what to look for because he knows what the AKA people will have Jon do. This will either end in the first with BJ KOing or Subbing Fitch. Or Go all the way with Fitch winning by UD because Penn will gas in the second.
Defeat is a state of mind. No one is ever defeated until defeat has been accepted as a reality. Bruce Lee.
ah lazy word choice on my part
should have said “extra”
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Feb 23, 2011 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
rec this before all the discussion revolves on one poorly chosen word rather than the article.
Boys becoming men...Men becoming wolves
Mobile rec
For that and what you said. Nothing (ok maybe a few things) irritate me more than reading the comments section & everyone is just splitting hairs over one misused word..
Be like water..
by theredoctober on Feb 23, 2011 10:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Lazy, or a well planned word placement, plotted by none other than the evil duo, Kid Nate and Jonathan Snowden….
I’m onto you O_O
"That's racism man, I love to racism bro!"
by Hendo_One-Shot on Feb 24, 2011 3:25 AM EST up reply actions
This reminds me of when Gruden coached the Bucs against the Raiders in the SuperBowl
He brought in the players, coaches and staff. He designed the system and he knew the plays.
Tampa players said it was like practice because Oakland was running every play they thought they would.
I don’t think it will have nearly as a much affect on this fight. BJ has grown greatly as a fighter and Camirillo has grown as a trainer.
Fitch my know some of Penn’s less known techniques and subtle nuances, but at this point, there is so much tape on both fighters I think the insight is almost negligible.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
True
the tapes are out their in all of BJ passed fights, showing off all of his techniques on the ground. Their is no clear advantage for Fitch in this fight. BJ a completely change fighter since those days working w/ Camarillo. He’s very well versed and well rounded, w/ ample amounts of experience.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Feb 23, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
oh how could you remind me of the calamitous Pirate Bowl
Callahan (the un-mourned coach of the Raiders that year) was basically worthless. He could keep doing what he’d done under Gruden, but didn’t come up with anything new. The Raiders kept on trucking through that season, but like Wile E Coyote, they had gone off the cliff and just didn’t know it. Seeing Gruden on the other side of the field was like looking down and seeing there was no ground anymore. Cue deer-in-headlights look and a plunge into the abyss.
The horror, the horror…..
I consider myself a softcore fan.
I got pretty drunk trying to forget that game as it happened.
Turns out, I can’t do that.
I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down
I have read somewhere that Camarillo helped Laimon in his preps for Stevenson before his title fight with Penn. Bad example since BJ destroyed Joe but still. I think Penn has dramatically changed since the days with Camarillo.
Anybody in this sport without a loss hasnt fought the right guy yet - Keith Jardine
they've trained together more recently than that
and please please please consider cross posting your technique series here at BE. : )
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
It’s no more of an unfair advantage than Fitch’s exponentially greater work ethic, or Penn’s edge in agility and flexibility. I don’t think it’s going to make any difference in the outcome of this fight either way.
BJJ > Sambo
by lowellthehammer on Feb 23, 2011 5:46 PM EST reply actions
i know major league pitchers throw a 100 mph fast ball.
Doesn’t mean I can hit it.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 23, 2011 6:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If you didn't know that
you’d be even less likely to hit it.
A step further, if you know when he’s going to throw it, you just might hit it.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
if you know when and where* he’s going to throw it, you just might hit it.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
everyone knows,
When: during the game.
Where: In the strike zone.
Lol
But at the same time think of this.
Jon’s Bjj teacher has been getting tapped out by bj for years.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 23, 2011 6:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Lol Funny guy
I agree. I don’t think Camarillo can teach him anything about BJ he doesn’t know or can’t watch on tape.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Wow Nate...
That’s a little sensationalist isn’t it? Unfair advantage?
There are plenty of cases where a fighter leaves a camp or specific trainer only to have a future opponent train with them.
I think these advantages or disadvantages regarding how a fighter used to train
or how a gym approached training fighters is overblown especially when you’re talking about a partnership that ended almost ten years ago.
I think what is more important are the intangibles of fighting. Fitch has never fought a guy with the killer instict that BJ has, and Penn has never fought anyone with the sheer will and zombie ability that Fitch has. These are things that cannot be qualified in a gym.
camarillo has been in almost all BJ's camps, he was in the count down show for bj vs gsp.
It won’t matter though.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 23, 2011 6:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
"OK Jon, he's going to use the spider guard
just a lot better than anyone else is."
“He’s gonna be really fast and agile. Powerful too. Avoid his punches and clinch him.”
“Drag him down. Keep trying. Keep trying. Keep trying. Keep trying. Ok, he’s down. Now, avoid sweeps and submissions.”
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
lol
Exactly.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 23, 2011 6:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
BJ didnt sweep or sub Edgar
Fitch wont have any trouble when he gets him down
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
What fight was that?
BJ had no problems whatsoever on the ground vs Edgar. He was controlling him when the fight went there.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
He was?
The second fight Edgar took him down three times. 4th round Edgar reversed Penns takedown and was able to stay ontop for a good while
Penn was not on top for any signifigant amount of time during that fight; he never controlled Edgar on the ground
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
Penn land 2 out of 3 TD's. Frankie got 3 out of 9.
All of BJ’s were toward the end of the fight and he didn’t even have to work for them.
http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/08/edgar-vs-penn-ii-fightmetric-report.html
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
What does that matter?
Penn was on top for a shorter amount of time and he did less damage on the ground. Edgar (only a purple belt in bjj) was able to control him for much longer. Fitch is a legit black belt and much larger. If Frankie could control him without risk of sweeps or submissions, then Fitch can to.
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
control? ?
When did that happen? Just because you are on top doesn’t mean you are in control.
"True strength is not always shown through victory. Stand up, try again and display strength of heart." - Rickson Gracie
"Wanderlei eventually got to his feet and stalked Fujita like a Japanese octopus in an all-female prison." - Sean Baby Cracked.com
by the-gentle-way on Feb 23, 2011 8:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm watching the fight right now
BJ schools Edgar once he decides to use his BJJ instead of just standing up(with ease).
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
the entire time Frankie is in BJ's guard
his at risk for a sweep or a submission.
Watch the fight again. You can see Frankie adjusting position constantly on the ground because Penn keep threatening with different looks from his guard.
Keep in mind, this is during the few moments he actually gets BJ down.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
And for reference
7:43 of the second fight was on the ground according to compustrike. I don’t have the exact stats but i remember Edgar was on top for much longer. Edgar landed 60 of 66 strikes on the ground, compared to 10 out of 13 for penn. (similar stats on fightmetric)
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
I watched the fight with my own eyes
7:43 of the second fight was on the ground according to compustrike.
That is simply not true.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
I have watched it several times
And you are wrong. Just look at the amount of strikes landed by edgar on the ground BY TWO SEPERATE SOURCES. No way he could of landed mthat in less then a minute unless he went balls to the wall crazy
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
66 strikes on compurstrike
62 on fightmetric. Face it: Edgar got the better on the ground in the second fight. FACTS back this up
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
This is what you're saying
If Frankie could control him without risk of sweeps or submissions, then Fitch can to.
Its not true.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Fight metric also says
Penn landed 17/17 ground strikes to Edgar’s head.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Edgar landed 60 something
What dpoes that matter?
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
to add
10/13 is not even close to 17/17.
Landing 100% of the strikes makes it seem as if BJ could somehow keep his opponent still, maybe even control them.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
How are they unreliable?
Counting strikes on the ground isn’t an exact science. Two sources, one of which is the UFC’s official statistics counter, agree that Frankie Edgar landed the same general amount of strikes on the ground. If my sources are wrong, how about you post some sources?
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
by sitnam90 on Feb 23, 2011 7:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
http://blog.fightmetric.com/2010/08/edgar-vs-penn-ii-fightmetric-report.html
by TheFilt on Feb 23, 2011 4:33 PM PST
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
OOOOOOHHHH
The same evidence you called unreliable. Fact is that Edgar was on top longer and he landed more punches on the ground; and if we know anything about Unified Rules, the guy ontop will win by points 99% of the time
Dear audio diary: Today I may have accidentally registered myself as a sex offender! WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY LIFE
- T-Rex
by sitnam90 on Feb 23, 2011 9:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You have a serious reading problem
I watched that fight again.
Until the 5th round the was about 2:20 seconds on the ground(out of 20 total minutes). During that time BJ was either escaping, threatening a sweep/sub or on top.
4 minutes of the 5th round took place on the ground. Starting with BJ scoring a take down. Frankie actually kept BJ in guard for a full minute and a half straight that round landing the vast majority of his strikes. Until he stood up, of course.
In short, during the brief amount of time they spent on the ground BJ very much controlled Edgar on the ground. From the bottom and on top. He most definitely was threatening with subs/sweeps from the bottom and showed absolutely no problem getting up.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
we know anything about Unified Rules, the guy ontop will win by points 99% of the time
Not necessarily, look at a guy like Nate Diaz, he’s a prime example. He works off his back for the majority of a round. The only reason why he may lose the fight or round is due to the fact of the takedown by the person who got him down in the first place.
My favorite K1 fighter:
Yuta Kubo the best 70kg striker in the world.
by Untitled_Artistry on Feb 23, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
True, they weren't on the ground for long
but in no way, shape or form did Frankie get the better of BJ in the ground.
I’m not sure why you used Edgar as an example, in 50 minutes he was on top of BJ for less than 1. He also uses a completely different fighting style and skill set.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
on top of that
He sprung back up before both cheeks even landed the few times(1, I believe) Edgar did get him down in the first fight.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
When has BJ ever swept anyone? I’m serious I don’t recall his doing so, but may be forgetting. I don’t even recall a sweep attempt.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 23, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
To answer your question
He sweep Edgar about 40 seconds into their 2nd fight and goes for an armbar.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
I totally don’t recall that, nor does Fightmetric apparently, since they didn’t credit Penn with either a sweep or an armbar. Maybe it happened in a different round?
Also regarding your first point, he’s not there often but over the course of his career he’s been put on his back a fair number of times (starting with Din Thomas) and he almost always simply tries to stand back up. This isn’t to say we won’t see sweep attempts from him, but that certainly wouldn’t be the norm. Since I’ve never seen BJ attempt sweeps, it’s hard for me to handicap his chances of successfully sweeping Fitch. (For the record, I think Fitch is much more sweepable than GSP and Kos, e.g.)
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 24, 2011 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Watch it with your own eyes
Fight metric doesn’t record sweeps either.
He gets the sweep, almost has his back, transitions to armbar and ends up back on bottom for a few seconds.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
I’ll watch it again, but I’m starting to doubt your an objective source on the subject (that is, you would tell me something to win an argument on the Internet even if it weren’t true — shame on you if that’s the case!)
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 25, 2011 9:45 AM EST up reply actions
He had never been taken down at LW before Frankie
and even he only got him down 4 times in 50 minutes and most of the time BJ sprang back up.
Since I’ve never seen BJ attempt sweeps,
Again, he hardly ever has to use them and prefers standing up any way. 95% of the time he doesn’t go down, and if he does he uses underhooks to get up.
If you know what to look for, he uses a spider guard sweep then scrambles to his feet, he also uses the butterfly guard to do a kind of half-sweep and stand back up.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
Pretty sure Uno took him down in their first fight which was a draw. Din Thomas took him down. I thought Gomi took him down once or twice as well. He did get a couple sweeps in that fight (reversing BJ after BJ had his back).
And I do know what to look for which is why I said he doesn’t try to sweep (as far as I recall) and instead attempts to stand up. I’m sure BJ’s ability to sweep, even if he generally doesn’t use it in MMA, is better than most blackbelts (and was 10 years ago likely better than nearly all blackbelts). If Fitch takes him down BJ will have plenty of opportunities for a sweep since Fitch almost never attempts to pass beyond half guard.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Feb 25, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
Well there you go
I was wrong about that.
But I’m not just making shit up. Watch the fight.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
After doing some research
BJ hadn’t been taken down at LW in 7 years before Frankie.
"I'll rock your body with big nasty hooks!"
This might matter if BJ hadn’t been in so many fights already. In fact, I think he’s fought more minutes in the UFC Octagon than any other fighter.
If BJ pulls this one out, things like this and the weight/size difference will add to his legend. One thing about BJ you have to love, he takes on all comer no matter the situation.
by troutki on Feb 23, 2011 7:31 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Does anyone know...
Why BJ left AKA and what the chances are that he’ll ever return?
Google Ron Paul!
Not sure...
There’s a good chance it’s a topic he hit in his book (which I haven’t read)…
Speculation: I think AKA is one of those MMA gyms that have a lot of control (ie: also manage, handle matchup agreements, etc) of their fighters. BJ likes to keep it within the family… literally. Also, if AKA was in Hawaii, it might be a different story :).
It seems like they are still on good terms, especially with Camarillo. You never know with BJ… he just spent a training camp with Hughes, so I definitely wouldn’t rule it out win or lose against Fitch. If he beats Fitch, AKA might be less inclined to have him…
If I recall correctly, in his book bj states that bob cook was actively pushing for sean sherk to be matched with bj, sean sherk was also with aka at the time and cook held the belief that sherk was going to be the next big thing and walk through bj. I didn’t get the impression from the book that it was bad terms as such, just that’s what bob cook believed so bj left.
'I Told you I was ill ' ;- Spike Milligans Headstone
by Banoo on Feb 24, 2011 2:35 AM EST via mobile up reply actions

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